shamsher

smartsingh24 wrote: So disobedience is love, and disobedient love should be rewarded over hukam rajai chalna? I heard mone say the same thing about the kesh issue. Chardi Kala May you all find peace Vahigurujikakhalsa Vahigurujikifateh

smartsingh24 wrote: There is a word for the way of those who willingly indulge in treason: Satanism! :e:

Maharaj has been very clear about how kirtan should be played. To disrepespect this is simply an act of treason against Maharaj and there is no discussion about that. Some people like to follow the trends introduced by some personalities at the beginning of 20th century. As a Sikh it is very clear to me that these people are nothing compared to Maharaj.It's Him and only Him that I should follow. The Divine Names should be repeated with love, tenderness and sweetness, something any real sant will tell you.The Divine Names should never be barked or groaned like these so-called "mahapurush": a loving wife (the suhagani of gurbani) does not bark at her husband. In any case in this world people practise the religion they deserve: some chose to follow the injunctions of their Guru and sing his praises with dedication other chose to disobey their Guru whilst pretending to be his true followers and bark his names as if they could force Divine Grace... As Maharaj says: countless are those who deny the gifts Akal Purakh has given them (Many negate after what they receive). Maharaj has given us this precious rag kirtan for our spiritual uplifment but countless are those who chose to go back to pre-history and practise shamanism in the form of Sikhi. May their hearts realise their arrogant treason, repent and realise how precious this gift of Maharaj is...

Response to sarabloh_geeza: 1. Why is it then that this has to happen on stage? Is the stage the only place where those in love with Maharaj burst out crying "spontaneously"? 2. the track I have listened to cannot be qualified as kirtan. Kirtan is by defintion devotional music NOT a shamanistic ritual where people repeat a certain incantation repetively as loud as possible in order to produce a state of spiritual extasy. 3. And here come the core of the problem. These tears, laughter etc... can only be considered signs of true bhakti when they have not been induced by an external factor i.e. shamanistic repetitive rythm. This sort of "spiritual practise" is one of the reasons why Guru Nanak Dev Ji condemns uncontrolled forms of Vaishnavism in his Asa ki //. It is the senses here that move the soul instead of the soul moving the senses. Kirtan obeys very subtle rules that totally contradict what is being done on that track. Each raag has a raasa or aestheticised emotion which is going to open up the bhava or main emotion in the listener.When the Gursikh is moved whilst listening to kirtan it is because of the bhava already existing in him/her and it does not come as a result of a fast breathing "naam japna". Sikhi is not shamanism!!!

Vahigurujikakhalsa Vahigurujikifateh With all due respect I wish to repond to a few people's comments. Response to Daasn Daas: You wrote: 1. We don't have to? Our Gurus specifically wrote down the raag in which their gurbani is supposed to be sung and you say we don't have to. Using your argument I could in an absurd way argue that even though the Gurus write about nam simran we don't have to do it. This is a non-valid argument as the raags are clearly mentioned and hence have the status of specific hukam regarding the performance of raag.2. you wrote: This argument of times changing is exactly the one used by mone to justify their cutting their hair. This argument has no basis in Sikhi whatsoever. The Raag system has not changed in its principles hence there is no reason to depart from it. New instruments have indeed emerged, some suited for classical hindustani sangeet others don't. The criteria for acceptance is the abality to imitate the modulations of the voice (different alamkars etc..) as well as the ability to reproduce the 1/4 tones of the classical Indian system. European music is limited to the 1/2 tones and a lot of its instruments are too limited in range to enter the realm of acceptance in classical Indian music (used in shabad kirtan). The violin and the guitar are exceptions whereas ALL keyboard instrulents by their very nature are utterly unsuitable. Regarding the "times are changing argument" Guru Gobind Singh was once confronted by someone who said that times have changed and that there was no need of keeping kesh etc... Guru Gobind Singh's response was: "The times have NOT changed. The sun is still the same, the moon is still the same, the stars are still the same". Suraj Prakash Granth also quoted in Giani Ishar Singh Nara's Zafarnama te Safarnama. As Sikhi does not accept the notion of linear time and as Guru's hukam has primacy over changes in fashion this arugment is equally non valid. 3. How could a true Gursikh indulge in unautorised inovation? It's like saying that trimming your beard is ok as long as you love Maharaj! non valid statement.Response to sarabloh_geeza: 1. You quote gurbani. At the beginning of your quote Guru Nanak clearly indicates that this is to be played in Raag Aasaa and not some filmy tune, bhangra tune or Sufi ritual! 2. The word kirtan does not appear in any way or sense in this shabad. This shabad does NOT refer to kirtan hence quoting it out of context is a non valid statement. To conclude I just wish to tell this story: There was once a king who had an ignorant servant who loved him dearly. He told his king: I'll kill anyone who tries to touch you!!! One day the king was having a nap and a bee landed on his nose. The servant drew his sword and killed the bee but in the act also killed his king whom he loved so much. Love is no excuse for ignorance or incompetence.There are plenty of places now where raag vidya can be obtained. Go and learn raags and give Maharaj the seva his exalted status deserves. If not, please abstain from manmat by indulging in desecrating shabad kirtan.Maharaj deserves the best not less!!!

Vahigurujikakhalsa Vahigurujikifateh With all due respect I wish to repond to a few people's comments. Response to Daasn Daas: You wrote: 1. We don't have to? Our Gurus specifically wrote down the raag in which their gurbani is supposed to be sung and you say we don't have to. Using your argument I could in an absurd way argue that even though the Gurus write about nam simran we don't have to do it. This is a non-valid argument as the raags are clearly mentioned and hence have the status of specific hukam regarding the performance of raag.2. you wrote: This argument of times changing is exactly the one used by mone to justify their cutting their hair. This argument has no basis in Sikhi whatsoever. The Raag system has not changed in its principles hence there is no reason to depart from it. New instruments have indeed emerged, some suited for classical hindustani sangeet others don't. The criteria for acceptance is the abality to imitate the modulations of the voice (different alamkars etc..) as well as the ability to reproduce the 1/4 tones of the classical Indian system. European music is limited to the 1/2 tones and a lot of its instruments are too limited in range to enter the realm of acceptance in classical Indian music (used in shabad kirtan). The violin and the guitar are exceptions whereas ALL keyboard instrulents by their very nature are utterly unsuitable. Regarding the "times are changing argument" Guru Gobind Singh was once confronted by someone who said that times have changed and that there was no need of keeping kesh etc... Guru Gobind Singh's response was: "The times have NOT changed. The sun is still the same, the moon is still the same, the stars are still the same". Suraj Prakash Granth also quoted in Giani Ishar Singh Nara's Zafarnama te Safarnama. As Sikhi does not accept th enotion of linear time and as Guru's hukam has primacy over changes in fashion this arugment is equally non valid. 3. How could a true Gursikh indulge in unautorised inovation? It's like saying that trimming your beard is ok as long as you love Maharaj! non valid statement.Response to sarabloh_geeza: 1. You quote gurbani. At the beginning of your quote Guru Nanak clearly indicates that this is to be played in Raag Aasaa and not some filmy tune, bhangra tune or Sufi ritual! 2. The word kirtan does not appear in any way or sense in this shabad. This shabad does NOT refer to kirtan hence quoting it out of context is a non valid statement. To conclude I just wish to tell this story: There was once a king who had an ignorant servant who loved him dearly. He told his king: I'll kill anyone who tries to touch you!!! One day the king was having a nap and a bee landed on his nose. The servant drew his sword and killed the bee but in the act also killed his king whom he loved so much. Love is no excuse for ignorance or incompetence.There are plenty of places now where raag vidya can be obtained. Go and learn raags and give Maharaj the seva his exalted status deserves. If not, please abstain from manmat by indulging in desecrating shabad kirtan.Maharaj deserves the best not less!!!

at the beginning of most compositions, Maharaj clearly indicates in which raag it is to be played. Going against Maharaj's exlicit hukam in Guru Granth Sahib is manmat and hence unacceptable from the point of view of Sikhi. Not playing kirtan in raag and hiding sin and incompetence behind the cheap excuse of "pyaar for Maharaj" is even more insulting. If you really love Maharaj than obey his command: learn and play raags. If it says raag Dhanasri then play raag Dhanasri and nothing else. As Guru Gobind Singh puts it: 'Rehat Pyari Mujhko ,Sikh Pyara Nahin' Kirtan has its rahit, going against it is manmat. :e:

at the beginning of most compositions, Maharaj clearly indicates in which raag it is to be played. Going against Maharaj's exlicit hukam in Guru Granth Sahib is manmat and hence unacceptable from the point of view of Sikhi. Not playing kirtan in raag and hiding sin and incompetence behind the cheap excuse of "pyaar for Maharaj" is even more insulting. If you really love Maharaj than obey his command: learn and play raags. If it says raag Dhanasri then play raag Dhanasri and nothing else. As Guru Gobind Singh puts it: 'Rehat Pyari Mujhko ,Sikh Pyara Nahin' Kirtan has its rahit, going against it is manmat. :e:

at the beginning of most compositions, Maharaj clearly indicates in which raag it is to be played. Going against Maharaj's exlicit hukam in Guru Granth Sahib is manmat and hence unacceptable from the point of view of Sikhi. Not playing kirtan in raag and hiding sin and incompetence behind the cheap excuse of "pyaar for Maharaj" is even more insulting. If you really love Maharaj than obey his command: learn and play raags. If it says raag Dhanasri then play raag Dhanasri and nothing else. As Guru Gobind Singh puts it: 'Rehat Pyari Mujhko ,Sikh Pyara Nahin' Kirtan has its rahit, going against it is manmat. :e: