Sherdil

For some people I think it's not just about something as straight-forward as seeking translations or clarifications of tuks. I think N30Singh Ji explains it rather well.

Uncynically, I think Guru Arjan Dev Ji encourages us to seek the company of saints at the end of Kirtain Sohila as well as a complete Asthpadi venerating the qualities of a saint in Sukhmani Sahib. It's the "Nanak daas eho sukh mange, mokho kar santan ki dhure" if I remember the final lines of Kirtain Sohila correctly. It's about being in the presence of these elevated individuals in the hope they can guide you towards goodness, and some of their inate gyan and knowledge can rub-off on the individual. That's the theory at least.

In reality some people begin to use and views Sants as some kind of miracle-doers or fortune-tellers who can provide them with the necessary tools to get on in the world, i.e. "Baba Ji, give me a son" or "Baba Ji, mere kam-baar de vich taruki hove" etc. That's when things go awry in my opinion. Of course, the hardcore Brahmgianis don't entertain such low-level, maya-infused demands from anyone. They get you on the path to Waheguru, and to hell with your personal desires.

I don't know any mahapurakhs personally, so I just ask my granthi whenever I'm in doubt...but I don't think he likes to hang out or anything. Lol. I understand what you are saying though.

How does one keep the company of saints then? Is it possible to be a saint and not have Sant or Baba in your name? How do you know a mahapurakh when you see one then, and how does one surround oneself with saintly people?

The older I get, the more I feel the world is full of unsavory characters. Saints are hard to come by.

If someone is in need of guidance, such as translation of a tuk from gurbani, why don't they seek out the help of the granthi at their gurdwara? Isn't it the granthi's job to guide the sangat? Aren't there also gurbani veechar classes you can sign up for?

Forgive me if I am missing something.

I do not need to prove god does not exist, what you see is what you get.

Is god a creation of man, to fulfil its need to take claim to this planet?

Then I could justify the stories told by J. R. R. Tolkien are an absolute fact.

Explain "What you see is what you get." Do you mean to say that since we cannot see God, He doesn't exist? That is hardly proof. I would say you are coming to a conclusion from lack of proof.

Absence of proof is not proof of absence (argumentum ad ignorantiam).

What is stopping man from taking over the planet? There is no divine intervention needed in this regard.

Tolkien was a firm catholic, was he not?

I humbly offer the 29th Hukam, from Guru Gobind Singh ji's 52 hukamnamas.

"With the enemy, practice/deploy the various techniques of diplomacy (saam, daam, dand, bedh)."

Perhaps someone with more knowledge on these various aspects of diplomacy, can explain them.

By gaining a proper understanding of this hukam, perhaps we will be able to understand why the Gurus had a sometimes cordial and sometimes hostile relationship with the Mughal Emperors.

It may also give some guidance into how Sikhs should deal with the various political figures and parties in India.

Human hasn't been able to prove that God doesn't exist.

Can you please contribute from your end of the argument?

lol

Point taken, but how can we get others to respect us when we can't even respect ourselves?

What you say is true. Calling each other names like "Mona" or "Gyanee" does nothing for our unity.

I thought you were playing the role of devil's advocate by deflecting criticism of the film makers, onto ourselves. Thus, spurring a side debate that has little to do with OP's post.

I apologize if that was not your intention.

Cali bhaji nu ta sirf ek gal aundhee ah.

If you go back far enough, any two human beings will have a common ancestor

The question is, how far back enough does that ancestor have to have lived for it to not matter

If someone is going to argue strongly on here that having the same surname should be taboo, they should be consistent and insist that you make sure that you and your partner do not have ANY ancestors with the same surname.

You are right. Anthropologists believe we are all descended from a small tribe in East Africa.

I am not saying it is taboo. I was just demonstrating that a girl and a boy with the same surname are not necessarily genetically related, unless of course they are immediate or extended family members.

However, it's just my own personal feeling that it is a little weird.

Can we have this concrete evidence that God exists?

Sorry to sound harsh but I'm not getting any answer from a Sikh point of view.

Sikhi doesn't try to directly define what God is, but it is concrete in what He is not. Through this indirect method, we can get an idea of what God is.

One example I can provide is from the first verse of Jaap Sahib, written by Guru Gobind Singh ji in Dasam Granth:

cakr cehan ar barb jat ar pat nahenjai, rup rang ar rekh bhekh kou kaih na sakat kaih. acal murat anbhau parkas amitauj kahijai kot indr indran sah sahan ganijai tribhavan mahip sur nar asur neti neti ban trin kahat. tav sarab nam kathai kavan karam nam barnat sumat.

Contour and countenance, caste, class or lineage, He has none. None can describe His form, figure, shape and semblance whatever; Immovable and self-poised is His being, Without fear, a luminous light sublime. The supreme Indra of Indras and King of kings consider Him to be; He is the sovereign of the three worlds. The demons, the mortals and the angelic beings, Nay, even the grass blades in the forests Proclaim Him to be boundless, endless and infinite. O, who can count all Thy names that are Thy glory? Through Thy enlightenment I will recount all Thy attributive names.

I would still check with your parents. You never know...they always figure out a way to connect the dots.

"Oh, that's our maami's, phoophard's, dog's, sister's, owner's, son"

Lol. Jk.

Surnames only matter when we are talking about the same gender.

The Y chromosome is passed down from father to son, so all boys with the same surname will be genetically related.

The mitochondrial DNA is passed down from mother to all of her children, but only girls can pass it on to the next generation. Therefore, everyone from the same maternal lineage is related in that sense.

Still, I wouldn't marry a girl with same surname as me because it's kinda weird. That's just my personal opinion.

We are all supposed to use Singh and Kaur anyway.

Who's Thailand???

People in our community have such funny names.

Mehboob, Ganda Singh, Kala Afghana (Black Afghan), Thailand...

I have never heard of Dundha and some of these other people until I started visiting this forum.

Any publicity is good publicity I guess.

I use tilli with dominant hand. Can't hold it properly the other way.

I may be doing it wrong, but whatever...it sounds alright.

Maybe she is playing dhol for a gatka demonstration.

Don't be so quick to judge.

Can you prove that there isn't a God?

Desi media has turned Sikhi saroop into a clown costume.

Ironically, Indians never hesitate to make it a diplomatic issue whenever their country or culture is mocked.

If you can dish it out, you should be able to take it.

Not funny

Lol sworn affadavit is not needed.

I was wondering how to reconcile your two statements.

Thanks for explaining.

I am veggie myself , eating meat should not be allowed in the panth in normal circumstances only extreme circumstances such as for survival or if you live in siberia/alaska/yukon where temp reaches -60, eating meat should not be encouraged to normal joe blow or normal sangat but with the exception of nihangs who have understanding behind nihang shakism (based on sri dasam guru granth and sri sarbloh granth)- another aspect in gurmat, only nihangs can do jhatka and eat meat not for taste purposes but for the sake of invoking shakti and perserving shakti symbolism in the panth..quite bluntly- Sikhs are not raw bhramins nor we are jains...we are symbolically just like our father sri guru gobind singh ji maharaj- khatri ko putt ho, bhramin ko nahi, sri guru gobind singh maharaj has blended - raj yog, prem bhakti/gyan, shakti in the Khalsa and has blended sato/rajo/tamo gun in khalsa (one must kept right balance) so based on time/circumstances - khalsa can adapt in the above aspects/attributes guru maharaj gave us..!!!!

I can't resist...

N30S1NGH ji, how can you claim to be a veggie when you were blaming "staunch veggie" Khalistanis for blowing up Air India. I think your battle is against Akal Takht, and you will say just about anything to further your cause.

Case in point:Sikhs Historical Gurudwara in Gwalior which was converted into Hindu Kali Temple in 1984

N30S1NGH said the following:

"I am not sure why single out-demonize/villify group like that, I am not a nihang but i must speak for under-represented/under dogs, instead of asking where was nihangs? may i ask where was the rest of the panth including self-righteous panthic sevadars/police sitting abroad and in india , arm chair critics when this happened? and where was those ultra staunch veggie's when this happened? oh let me guess- busy blowing innocent human civilians in air india (inderjit singh reyat admitted he made the bomb which bought down air india)...being ultra orthodox staunch veggie yet killing 321 human innocent civilians in air india which included 80 sikhs...pretty ironic eh?...now go cry me a flipping river if you want mate...!!!!!!!!!!!

http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?/topic/54624-apna-punjab-hovay/

"Bir ras karke nikkalda

Oye bir ras karke nikkalda, RSS da pishaab hovay

Apna Punjab hovay

Khirreya gulaab hovay

Apna Punjab! Apna Punjab!"

Lol

Notice how the near-mythical RDX gets a mention. It's the only substance the Indian media ever mentions in relation to terrorism! Why does no news report in any other part of the world ever mention RDX??!? It's like Big Foot, The Beast of Bodmin Moor, and the Loch Ness Monster; we've all heard of them but nobody has actually seen them in real life, lol!

Gurdas Mann missed a trick when he sung 'Apna Panjab' as there definitely should've been a verse about RDX in with the rest of the stuff about saag and makhan.

Apna Punjab hoveh

Police vi karaab hoveh

Bebe banaaveh saag, vich makhan

Bapu kainda vich RDX vi paadeh

This thread is going to go on forever...

People can provide single lines from gurbani to make their respective (veg or non-veg) points. This is what always happens on these types of threads.

Myself, others and the lady in the OP video have done nothing but argue from a view point that is in line with Akal Takht Maryada. That is the maryada we should be following, since Akal Takht is the temporal authority of Sikhs, as decreed by Guru Hargobind ji.

I would kindly like to leave this debate, as I think enough has been said, to the extent that some points now being repeated. As usual there is no consensus.

I think this is why Guru Nanak dev ji said "Fools argue over meat and flesh."

Scared of reading Vedant scriptures? If you had read some of the Katha Upanishads or read up on Indra you would understand why I mentioned them when speaking about the Bibi in the video. Let me just tell you in brief. Indra was searching deep inside for many years what is Brahmam. After long enduring self-discipline Indra was told by Prajapati that what you see in the mirror is the self (atma). Virocana (demon) got happy and went off skipping into the forest and started telling everyone Brahman is the body. Indra contemplated on this and came to the conclusion, when the body vanishes the self would vanish. Knowing the self is immortal and is Brahman. Indra rejected such stupidity and kept on meditating. However sorry to say the Bibi in the OP's post can't even move past the first step and says the world is Brahman. She reads Gurbani and Gurbani starts off by telling us what Brahman is. Such people have the Guru slapping you in the face what Vaheguru is, but then you turn around and make the same mistake the demon Virocana did. The Bibi in the video obviously thinks shes some great preacher, So to give such people a reality check, who slander and completely disregard Vedant scriptures, they should understand even Vedant scriptures have more spiritual wisdom than them.

Satguru gives guidance to all and there is no need to go outside, but the point is that even Vedant scriptures can teach more about Vaheguru than those who call themselves Sikh preachers.

Satguru said in his 52 Hukams to study other religous texts, but keep your faith in Gurbani.

I don't get it. Weren't you the one hounding another member on this forum, who is known for his Sanatan views?

There is no need to bring in Hindu scriptures. You should be able to make your point using Gurbani.

Guru Nanak dev ji, Raag Malaar, 1289

And which "GuruS" used to hunt? Please let me know, as you put it in plural form. What is the historical/literary evidence of this? And if they did hunt, and also ate the meat, please let me know where I can find that information. Also, if they ate the meat, surely 90% of the other Sikhs ate it as well right? So, that means there should be evidence of Sahibzaadey, Panj Pyaarey, Baba Deep Singh Jee, Bhai Mani Singh Jee, Baba Banda Singh Bahadur, Mata Gujjar Kaur Jee eating meat too. Where in literary evidence is this stated? And in what context? In times when nothing else was available? Or did they eat it daily/weekly/monthly?

Guru Gobind Singh ji, Bachitar Natak, Dasam Granth.

ਭਾਂਤਿ ਭਾਂਤਿ ਬਨਿ ਖੇਲ ਸਿਕਾਰਾ ॥ ਮਾਰੇ ਰੀਛ ਰੋਝ ਝੰਖਾਰਾ ॥੧॥

I went hunting various kinds of animals in the forest and killed bears, nilgais (blue bulls) and elks.1.

Guru Hargobind ji also used to hunt. Some of his hunts were done alongside Emperor Jahangir.

The following is account of a conflict between Jahangir's son and successor Shah Jahan, and Guru Hargobind ji:

Sikhs while hunting in a Royal preserve trapped a falcon belonging to Shah Jahan and a conflict with imperial forces soon ensued. On the 22 day of Jeth month in Bikrami 1685, Sikhs won this battle. After that victory, the wedding of Bibi Veero, which had been interrupted by the battle, was completed.

gorillas are vegetarian and also have "canine" teeth....

As for jhatka, i view that as a completely different thing than regular meat eating b/c khalsa is allowed to do jhatka when there is majhboori (and not for taste). So I don't see that as an issue.

You are correct.

Gorillas have canines, as do chimpanzees. In fact, their canines are bigger than ours.

While they don't eat meat, their canines are used for fighting. When they bite each other, they are still tearing flesh

It is a scientific fact that humans are omnivores, and have been for centuries. It is for this reason, that we have canines. We have learned to hunt using weapons, thus we have rudimentary canines, compared to other meat-eating species.

What constitutes being in a state of majboori?

It seems silly to me that we have accepted the practice of Jatkha, and we have accepted that our Gurus used to hunt. Yet, we draw the line at eating the animal once we have killed it. Which one is worse: Taking a life, or eating something that is dead?

I respect you for the understanding you have about alchohal and I wont hesitate to call u brother and i will say trust me same is the case with meat. Ur medical knowledge is good but u also need to read spiritual life stories of sant/mahapurashs who knows how meat is a big hindrance between us and God. U simply cannot walk on Gurmat path with meat and u should listen to Guru Sahib and do not think that your medical knowledge is above than anyone. Guru Sahib made us and he is forbidding us from eaiting meat. Story ends here. Now its ur choice what you like to do. Listen to Guru and accept his hukam or keep thinking about ur canine.

I consider you a brother as well.

Perhaps I have not read the biographies of the sants and maharpurakhs you are alluding to. I apologize for my ignorance. Tell me why eating meat is a hindrance to God, according to them.

Brother, I am listening to Guru Sahib, but I think we are hearing different things.

Historical edict hand written by Guru Hargobind Ji.

The Hukamnama clearly states: ਮਾਸ ਮਛੀ ਦੇ ਨੇੜੇ ਨਹੀਂ ਆਵਣਾ |

Do not come near (i.e. consume) meat and fish.

(Hukamnama of 6th Guru found at Sri Harimandir Sahib, Patna Sahib)

It took some effort, but I found that this hukamnama comes from Dr. Ganda Singh's book.

There is a Prof. Harinder Singh Mehboob, who has reported that a majority of the hukamnamas published in Dr. Ganda Singh's book are fake.

Had that hukamnama by Guru Hargobind ji existed, why wasn't it included in the Akal Takht Maryada? If it is found at Harimandir Sahib (Patna), then it would be hard for Akal Takht to overlook it.

Guru Gobind Singh ji doesn't even include this hukamnama in his own 52 Hukamnamae.

Your thoughts?

Edit: Sri Harimandir sahib at Patna, not Harmandir Sahib in Amritsar