hsingh68

Guys/gals don't believe or put faith in prophecies, live in the present. Try to be happy in each moment. You live once just enjoy.

Neither the sakhi of Prithi Chand is false, nor the point I try to make you understand is false. False is your ego, which does not allow you to accept any other view than yours. Ego is haume, is ahankar, and it seems, you do not have it clear at all, the difference. No matter how hard you may try to argue, or do veechar according to you, but I know where I am standing... what to say about you, but nobody can make me move from my firm beliefs about the Bani and Guru Ji, due only to His Grace, otherwise I am quite unfit . Yes the ego is false and so is everyone's ego. Mind is only EGO if we define ourselves to be the MIND. But if we say we are not the mind then there is no ego of identifying ourselves as the mind. Identifying ourselves with anything becomes the ego. Let's use the dictionary definition:"Ego" is a Latin and Greek (ἑγώ) word meaning "I", often used in English to mean the "self", "identity" or other related concepts. It may also refer to: Ego, one of the three constructs in Sigmund Freud's structural model of the psyche Ego (religion), as defined in various religions in relationship to self, soul etc. Satguru, which is our true identity is always providing guidance to this ego of mind and body. See your own contradictions: first you say that gurbani can be proved...we do not need logic out of the window.... but at a later place you say, all personal opinions are theories, and only Guru Ji can make us understand what they want to say ..... So according to you if everybody has opinions or own theories, then how can agreement come from the veechaar ... because if there are 100 people and 100 opinions are the outcome, where is the truth which our Guru Sahibans want to convey us? No you have misunderstood I said we all have theories that are based on our interpretation of gurbani. Agreement can come from veechar depending on whose theories are valid based on logic that actually makes sense and people can actually understand. Doing further veechar on gurbani to see who has actually misunderstood gurbani is important as well. Kal Purukh wanted to have this mayavee creation, and he asked for souls from Akal Purukh to populate it, as he can not create or destroy souls by himself. Where in gurbani does it say there was another being called kal purkh asking for souls? So are Akal purukh and Kal Purukh best friends or something? Is kal purukh the devil? Please provide reference for this please. So the next thing Dharam Rai did, in order to keep the souls as prisoners, he cunningly united the souls with mind, and thus the law of karma was then establised. Please provide reference in gurbani again. I am not aware of dharam rai trying to keep souls as prisoners cunningly. Please show me this reasoning in gurbani? No for karma being started at a certain point in time. Karma is infinite and will always occur this can be proved in a logical way. Karma is infinite and therefore so is the creation. Creation is just giving name and form to what is already beginninglessly present in the cause. The pot already exists in clay in unmanifest form. Making/creating a pot is mere rearrangement a.k.a. manifestation of pot from its cause - clay. One is that it is an independent ontological real existent that serves as the receptacle of change. So, time can exist independent of change. Time never began. That is, time has an infinite past. Second view is that positing the existence of time is superfluous because everything can be explained in terms of change. In this case also, change is considered beginningless. In either case time/change is beginningless so the universe never began to exist. The universe always was. i.e. the universe has an infinite past. Next, one has to consider the nature of knowledge. If knowledge is always intentional - i.e. it is OF something else, then one can imagine that we (egos) are part of God's knowledge. Now, God's knowledge can either be his attribute or his essence. In either case, God's essence or his attributes are co-eternal with. Furthermore, God is omniscient. All past, future and present events are part of God's knowledge. God's knowledge is eternal if God is eternal. Objects of God's knowledge are likewise eternal if God's knowledge is eternal. Since the mistake of ego is a part of God's knowledge therefore this error will continue to come and go eternally in all lives. Therefore reincarnation is infinite and there is no such thing as physical or mental liberation. Another view on knowledge is that it is pure consciousness itself. Any purported object of knowledge distinct from knowledge is illusory. So, in the play that God engages in, there is only God. There is no other to God. Our earthly life of duality is in reality monistic. God is simply amusing himself and engaging in sport. Only God exists. In summary, creation never began to exist. There is no time t = 0 when suddenly things emerge or begin to exist. We can keep going back and back and will never reach a starting point. THEREFORE THE LAW OF KARMA HAS ALWAYS BEEN ESTABLISHED. Because, any karma created by the mind, whether good or bad, the soul would had to pay or get rewarded for it, and as we can not remain karmaless, our amount of karmas are always on increase... so you see....the soul being away from Satnam, has forgotten its origin, and due to the mind, the panj karma and panj gyan indriyas, is mercilessly roaming in the cycle of births and deaths along with the mind, whose headquarters are in the causal region. Karma is infinite. Let me remind you, the soul is not the body nor the ego nor the mind...because you tend to get confused at this very point I never said it was. The supreme soul god is not the body, mind or ego. Remember , He is saying, that the soul had to go through so many janam and maran, in different bodies, sometimes as plants , fish, or ox among others of the chaurasee ka chhakar, due to its knot with the mind . Guru ji is not saying the soul goes through incarnation in those tuks. It's the EGO that experiences different incarnations and that is what it does and it will continue to do so. Nowhere in the tuks you have provided me does it mention the soul going through reincarnation. This knot, the soul can not break it by itself, unless it gets the aid of a power superior to the mind, maya, and the very Kal Purukh, who does not want any soul to escape from this his creation, so he has set traps in forms of karmas at every step, to keep the soul prisoner here. Where is this theory from? Please provide reference in gurbani of this kal purukh who doesn't want souls to escape? If you are referring to maya, which maybe you are if not then say so in your next post. Maya is also an aspect of God it is God's sargun form. Without maya there would be no experience of anything. That Shabad acts then as a guide to the soul, and so the Bani says: Shabad Guru, dhun(soul) chela. Means, with the power and authority of Nam, the soul crosses this Bahvsagar. shabad is the Guru and the individual awareness (or consciousness) is the pupil. Shabad Guru surat dhun chela (you missed surat out above FYI) is individual awareness and I assure you that is not the soul as you have stated above. You are using the word soul far to often for words that don't mean soul. Dhun is not soul because our awareness isn't eternal and perishes when we die. Not that I like to discuss with you, but I just can not remain quiet, if you try to throw dirt(false accusations) on me.... Maybe it is better to ignore you, but out of sympathy, and as a huamn being, knowing that your soul and mine, as well of the rest of the beings, are drops of the same Ocean Satnam... so with the aid of the Bani, I will always try my best to answer you, and clear your doubts. If I have hurt you then please forgive me.

Nope you make assumptions on what I am saying. Why don't you just ask me what I meant on naam.

That's better lets discuss this. anhad sun maani-aa sabad veechaaree. Hearing the unstruck music of the sound current, this mind contemplates the Shabad, and accepts it. aatam cheeneh, bha-ay nirankaaree. Understanding itself, this soul becomes attuned to the Formless Lord. That tuk doesn't say they are separate at all. Firstly nirankaaree is an aspect of God, which means formlessness. The world lord added in the english translation in blue is not in the gurbani tuk. There is no mention of the exact word for lord. ਆਤਮੁ ਚੀਨਿ੍ਹ ਭਏ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰੀ ||੭|| aatam cheeneh, bha-ay nirankaaree. Understanding itself, this soul becomes attuned to the Formless Lord. Also there are no commas in gurbani like the english translation has done it breaks the flow of gurbani hence changing emphasis of meaning. So the meaning of the tuk should be realising/contemplating the aatam (which I say is the lord) one becomes attuned to formlessness. Since from the previous tuk it talks about mind it is therefore the same mind that becomes attuned to the formless by contemplating God (Aatam). This only happens when there is no ego. When there is no ego only God remains and the same mind is no more to be aware of therefore the use of formlessness. And below it is the mind that contemplates on the formless lord ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਮਨੁ ਸਮਝਾਈਐ ਆਤਮ ਰਾਮੁ ਬੀਚਾਰਿ guramukh man samajhaaeeai aatham raam beechaar ||2|| The gurmukh trains their mind to contemplate the supreme Lord Soul ||2|| You can only become one with something, when one is separated from the other, because if they are already one, what is the need to listen the Shabad to become one with Lord according to you. Please read my previous post the illusion of separateness is due to the ego. The shabad is the lord, where there is no ego there is only shabad. The shabad you speak of is always going and my mind is always attuned to it and so is everyone elses but their mind is just unaware of it. Shabad is the LORD. So you see, it is not at all my theories, as you want to make us see by force, it are the words of Baba Nanak, which you deny. What we others say, you cunningly call them theories , and what you say, is truth ...that is not fair, but being arrogant. For me the Bani is not to be followed blindly as you say, but with faith, and thus for me, the sacred Bani of our Guru Sahibans is Sat Bachan. You are basing all your reasoning on the LITERAL ENGLISH translations of gurbani. Read the gurmukhi and see if it is in correlation with the english translation. There are theories because it's your interpretation of gurbani and the same goes for me and everyone else including you. What the guru's really meant only they can say but everyone else will have their own interpretaion of gurbani therefore it becomes a theory. It's not about proving myself right it's about doing veechar.

Precisely :respect:

I thought you were not talking to me.. Yes and no. If you take amrit because everyone else is doing it then yes it's a ritual, if you take amrit to join and group or get fame within a tribe then it is a ritual. But if you take amrit to find god then it isn't. If you repeat a naam mantar like a parrot, or you trying to build up your avasta, or you think a mantar has a magical power in it, or you think by repeating a mantar again and again will lead you to God then it is a ritual. However if you try to understand why this mantar was given and try to do shabad veechar as gurbani mentions then it isn't a ritual. As you can see I have a lot of fans on this forum.

You have just avoided the entire discussion and I have addressed all your questions in your previous post. It's only fair to address mine, we are doing veechar just because I am questioning your theories doesn't mean for you to get annoyed at me and then use the sakhi of prithia chand to prove a false point. If you run away from learning and people asking you questions then you will never progress. Gurbani can be proved to anyone and even when questioned it can be proven. Don't get disheartened... Your soul logic involves pure blind faith and cannot be proven but Gurbani is not like that - it can be proven to anyone and doesn't require answers depending on guess work. All of gurbani can be proved starting from now there are no levels or rises in avasta to prove it. We don't need to throw logic out of the window when examining gurbani.

So who has to understand the Nam? Of course not Wahiguru, because He already knows what He is. Yes you are right there is no mukhti not for the mind or body. Really we are always mukht, understanding naam means realising for the mind that you are always that immortal soul known as GOD. Most individuals thinks they are the mind or body and that is ego, the mind now understands that it has no independent reality of it's own and it was just a perishable aspect of that immortal God that was never born. So the question becomes who are we? GOD Since who we are is never bound but the mind/body thought it is independent and therefore thought it was bound so understanding naam for a second means understanding that you are not the body or mind but God. There is no liberation in a physical way the whole concept is an illusion an error and understanding this is understanding naam. so then what is that left, which goes on and on, in different lives, and that which is not perisahble? There is no coming or going as our origin has always been God therefore we have always and will continue to go on and on, Gods keeps on playing creation. The lord is causing the thoughts, the feelings, the mind, creating the mind, moving all the bodies in the world and the list is endless. He is the architect of karama. Neither the body or mind can understand what is Nam, as ther are "jarr" means consciousless. Precisely it's not just the mind or body that is jarr anything made up of the 5 elements or any astral form is jarr. True however the power behind the mind that gives the mind understanding that if it has no free will of its own then who is doing everything. Everything is jarr there is only God powering everything up. Naam is that God, supreme consciousness. So, if Wahiguru is ajoonee, then who is caught up in the cycle of births and deaths? The mistake of the ego identifying itself as a separate being, which thinks it is caught up in births and deaths. It's an illusion.. Mukhti is realising that it is an illusion. You seek some physical mukhti and that does not exist. As we know, Wahiguru is an infinite ocean of bliss also. Let us ask ourselves, are we in a bliss state? Yes only if you think you are not the mind and body. We are God. There is only God. Why has Wahiguru created this creation This creation has always been even when there is the big crunch the matter still remains but there is a change of shape of it. The matter consisting of atoms and the building blocks of atoms have always been for eternity. Therefore karma and time reaches infinity. And the soul also does not need to understand Nam exactly, because, it is already a particle of it, but yes, due to its association with the mind, it has forgotten its origin and is wandering aimlessly in the creation. Your theory about the soul does not make sense there is no logic behind it at all. Being broken into parts of God. Do you really think the soul will forget it's origin even when it it associates with the mind? That is flawed logic also if the soul is immortal like God as you say do you think it wanders aimlessly in the creation? Can something immortal be part of the physical world? Do you think the soul occupies a space? So, by the sacred practice of Nam Simran, the soul regains its real consciousness, that it is a part of Him, but separated from Him, due to x reasons, but it is naturally separated. And the proof is, we are in pain and suffering constantly. The mind feels pain and that's what it does, it also feels pleasure but we are NOT the mind. That's why it is important to understand what the Ego is and the illusion it is causing of separateness.

I couldn't have said it any better. :biggrin2:

People think that reciting something again and again will give them some sort of power and that's the problem it just enhances the ego. These cults say it doesn't matter if you don't understand gurbani just repeat and you will get reward.

Yes it's all wrong and the worst part is that I used to do a lot of paarts of japji sahib again and again - it got me nowhere. It's not about reciting something again and again it's about understanding and applying it to your life. But once I took my time and understood gurbani that was a life changer. This mentality is so widespread because of groups and cults within sikhi that promote this mentality.

I don't resent them all that happened was according to God's will that it was God doing everything; there is no point hating because that doesn't change anything. I just don't see the point following a path not because I hate the path. I respect everyone but it doesn't mean I have to follow them.

A path is only needed to meet God. Once god has been met then the path is not needed. Why follow rituals that apparently help you reach God when the final destination has been reached. The panth never helped me.... Anyway my life is the same it has not changed when I was amritdhari nor has it changed when I cut my hair and stopped following rehat. The grace of God and help is still here.

It can be done, but one has to willing to let go of their old practices (that's the hardest path) and be open minded and willing to learn. Look at dasam bani Guru ji rejects every physical ritual possible. I can break everything down as well. Yes it will hurt people as some of them are still following these practices but it has to be done. I'm talking about realising God for everybody and not just sikhs. Following rehat, wearing 5 kakars are for sikhs. Gurbani in GGS is for everyone regardless of being religious or not. In the same way God is for all regardless of being religious or not. Cleaning the mind is not just by reciting gurbani again and again nor is just reciting a mantar over again and again. Cleaning can only be done by veechar. I've walked the amritdhari path in the past for too long and was once bound by rules and stages. You don't need to put people through stages look at guru nanak he made sajan tug realised and the carnibal guy realise God and that was not by puting them through stages. Nor did guru ji use some magic power or "high avasta" to make them realise God. Realisation of God can be done by everyone regardless of religion.

Yes there is no free will. Truly understanding that there is no free will lead you to realise God; if you say and really understand that there is no free will then you must have realised God...

If I can understand that God is everything and that you can meet God without going into stages so can everyone, it takes no genius... even an uneducated person can realise God. There is a different thing between schooling, schooling requires people to learn new information, which takes a lot of time. However God is there right now, he is everywhere it just requires some veechar that's it. But it does take some time to do veechar and not putting them through stages but once a person realises that God is running the whole show. Then only God remains.

I'm aware that other sikh and non sikhi scriptures have outlined naam into stages and the funny thing was that I was under the illusion of stages for years. However in gurbani I have not found stages and because of this the aim of sikhi (gurbani) is not to put the student under stages. Saying that I am this stage or I want to reach the next level in my avasta is just ego. It is the ego that stops God realisation. Stages will become a hurdle for anyone on this path.

I understand what you are saying but I have met so many people who are under the illusion of stages. They keep saying I'm at this level or I need to do more kamai to progress to the next level. These individuals have been brainwashed and because of all these stages are lost to ignorance. The stages for them are the hindrance that prevents them from realising God. The same people have been misled and for some reason these stages are never ending there is always one more stage before they can meet God. What a paradox!

If you are reciting waheguru waheguru even before or after you have taken amrit and have not met God. Then you have not realised what true naam is or you have not been reciting naam. Understanding naam for a second means mukhti from the birth and life cycle.

Nor does love have stages! Stop making sikhi into a long step by step system. All those steps you mention are just steps of ignorance. You either realise everything is God or you don't. There are too many cults in sikhi we don't need more man made systems. In gurbani there are no stages people have made stages from gurbani like the khands in japji sahib they are not stages and guru nanak never says they are stages to access progress. Cults say they are stages but they are not. All those khands are not to access level of progress.

You are right.

Define Ego please again for my reference? Provide the exact meaning of it?

What is the Ego then. Let's hear your meaning?

Mind is only EGO if we define ourselves to be the MIND. But if we say we are not the mind then there is no ego of identifying ourselves as the mind. Identifying ourselves with anything becomes the ego. Let's use the dictionary definition:"Ego" is a Latin and Greek (ἑγώ) word meaning "I", often used in English to mean the "self", "identity" or other related concepts. It may also refer to: Ego, one of the three constructs in Sigmund Freud's structural model of the psyche Ego (religion), as defined in various religions in relationship to self, soul etc. Satguru, which is our true identity is always providing guidance to this ego of mind and body.

There has to be a ego there for one to feel proud. Where there is no ego there is no awareness of being proud. I never said Ego is a bad thing there needs to be a ego for one to live a life, without it we would not be aware of this world or ourselves. But confusing the ego with our true selves is the problem, which satguru does not make this mistake.