UKLondonSikh
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I ask you a simple question - did you achieve what you wanted with the violence and counter violence?
UKL = Who is this question directed to? I hope it is not addressed to Sikhs!? Sikhs oppose violence against innocents and theologically refrain from violence as much as humanly possible.
UKL = 100% of violence against innocent human beings was unleashed by Indira Gandhi and the then Government of India.
UKL = When barbaric terrorist empires like the Mughals, The British and the Nehru-Gandhi Empire unleash Genocide there will always be those like Banda Singh Bahadur Ji, Bhagat Singh and Justice Khalra who stand up against the murder of innocents.
UKL = If however, your question was directed to the bureaucratic and ideological Hindutva opponents of Sikhs responsible for all of the violence, then yes the answer is that they achieved 99% of their objectives to oppress the Sikh Qaum via violence. The problem for them is that the enemies of the Sikhs whether based in Islamabad or Delhi cannot kill us all. The Panth will always recover, rebound and eventually will succeed in delivering equality, development, health, education, justice and peace globally for all.
Hindustani = As far as I can tell, no! Looking at the state of Punjab today and what it was in the 60s and 70s.
UKL = That was exactly Indira's aim. To decimate the Sikh Qaum and the ideology of equality/brotherhood/justice (and action against corruption) in order to solidify her terrorist rule over India.
Hindustani = There is a reason why even hardcore separatists today are asking for change and a state through non-violent democratic means. They understand what happened.
UKL = The hardcore separatists of today (who have very little electoral support) are directly 100% as a result of Indira's terrorist actions. If Pakistan killed 13million Indians tomorrow (the equivalent of what the Nehru-Gandhi Empire inflicted on the Sikhs) and you were ruled by dogs like Jinnah from Islamabad then I am pretty sure even you would launch your own political party to campaign for freedom from terrorist Pakistani rule. I don't think anybody sitting in the UK, USA or Canada is advocating any kind of armed activities today in 2014 when the Prime Minister is a Sikh and the Head of the Indian Army is a Sikh or else they would likely fly out today to put that into motion. After the death of Beanta and the level of Genocide against Sikhs curtailing subsequent to that the vast majority of Sikhs believe that a political democratic peaceful solution to the injustices suffered by Sikhs is best.
UKL = I think most understand that Indira's central government policies which encourage drugs, alcohol, infanticide, illiteracy, diviseness and poverty in Punjab need to be tackled by ourselves first as even Manmohan Singh as a Sikh has failed to do anything about the same. Therefore, you should encourage everyone you know to contribute to projects which tackle the same such as:
UKL = If you want India to remain a united country for defence purposes against terrorists from Pakistan (as advocated in the Anandpur Sahib Resolution) the best thing you can do is join Sikhs in their various campaigns for justice for innocent long-suffering Sikhs as well as other oppressed peoples in India. You should campaign for the Anandpur Sahib Resolution as had Delhi implemented it in 1980 there would have been more aman shanti and collective economic progress and development today as a result. You should utilise all your contacts to further push the agenda for justice for political prisoners, to stop the flow of Pakistani drugs into East Punjab (made easy by Delhi as a means of drugging out the youth), for Punjabi farmers to get market prices (that the Indian Treasury can now afford to easily sustain) for strategic reasons and you should work so that more and more so-called Hindu's come into the Sikh fold as the agenda of Sikhi is simply for the welfare and benefit of all. The more central government ignores call for justice and equality from Sikhs the more your true enemies from Islamabad rub their hands in glee that Delhi are wasting their energies opposing Sikh calls for justice, instead of dealing with events like the Mumbai attack or incursions in Kashmir.
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Khalsa Ji (Jagtar Singh Bhai Sahib) i'm just reposting this here in order that hopefully others could join the discussion to put forward whether they feel which word out of "freedom" or "rights" will help us achieve more Panthic Upliftment (and political mileage) out of the 8th June 2014 rally ... as the other thread locked prior to debate continuing. I also feel the points below are even more crucial given the revalations of UK government support for the terrorist actions of Indira Gandhi in 1984.
JagtarSinghKhalsa, on 27 Dec 2013 - 09:55, said:
Some attend the annual event as they simply want to REMEMBER and pay their respects to the Shaheeds.
We PROTEST during the MARCH as it is not only about REMEMBRANCE as we have not had JUSTICE. The way we hope to get the message across this year will be more creative, professional etc.
If you have not had JUSTICE then what we need to get across to non-Sikhs and the mainstream media on the 30th anniversary is we want FREEDOM (this will be the main theme).
FREEDOM can and will have many meanings:
FREEDOM for Sikh political prisoners
FREEDOM from the death penalty/hanging
FREEDOM of religion - Article 25
FREEDOM for greater rights - Punjab's water
etc.
AND of course FREEDOM from IndiaUKL = Khalsa Ji i agree with you on what you say above. However, i think that the word RIGHTS encompasses all the issues you list above and the RIGHT to self-determination is a birthright of all human beings but particularly the Sikh Panth that has suffered and continues to suffer systematic Genocide at the hands of our opponents in Delhi. I 100% strongly believe that UPLIFTMENT of our Panth should be the main goal of what we are trying to achieve with Hyde Park June 2014. I was going to write to Sikh Council on exactly this point but given that you are from the FSO what better person to ask if there is the possiblity of Sarbat Khalsa discussing this issue and weighing it up as to the pro's and con's of the alternating terms suggested for June 2014.
jashb, on 27 Dec 2013 - 15:52, said:
J = Our nishana is still azaad halemi khalsa raj KHALISTAN. I cannot ever deny that while there is even the slightest semblance of breath in my body.
UKL = Agreed bir'ay. After the events of 1984 and thereafter no Sikh should ever feel guilty of desiring self-rule (freedom from GOI terrorism). However, I believe there is tactical merit in us downplaying the obvious at the moment.J = veere, regarding the state of affairs 29 years on from the bloody assault on our Quom in 1984. We do not live under delusions of grandeur. India's genocide of 300,000+ Sikhs (mostly young, unmarried, teenage to 20's males) in the early 1990's that physically brutally liquidated our freedom movement, which was on the brink of success ( Takht - as per declaration of Shaheed Baba Gurbachan Singh Ji Manochahal - Takht ya Taboot ), by killing off the current and future youth of our quom, was incredibly painful.
UKL = 100% agreed
J = We won the battles but lost the war.
UKL = Agreed that our central government adversaries won. And that is why we need to rethink our route map to Victory.
J = We didn't resort to matching the enemy's dirty tactics.
UKL = 100% true bir'ay. Whilst the Khalsa Panth did not shed the blood of any innocent deliberately, Indira Gandhi's Black Cats GOI Terrorist Forces headed by Muhammad Azhar Alam were wholly responsible for the murder of innocent non-Sikh civilians.
J = The hurt continues with this ongoing silent genocide via a seemingly endless inflow of drugs, alcohol, and the quom killing itself through its daughters.
UKL = Agreed bir'ay and I strongly believe we need to address drugs, alcohol, infanticide, illiteracy, poverty, and biraderi cancer as pre-cursors to achieving freedom.
J = But there is a distinct difference between losing and admitting defeat i.e. giving up. We have never admitted defeat, and we are not about to give up anytime soon.
UKL = 100% agreed bir'ay. The Sikh Panth can never fundamentally be defeated. The Sikh Panth will never accept permanent defeat and will never surrender to Oppressors. However, we should not hesitate from tactical retreats if they bring us closer to overall long term victory (which I strongly believe dressing up June 2014 as a Remembrance and Rights Peace March will do - especially if the attendance figures can arguably be tripled as I strongly believe resulting in greater progress for upliftment of the Panth).J =Now, as for the future; We may well lose many of the battles to come. But of one thing, Guru-Paatshah has made me absolutely nischat sure; WE WILL WIN THE WAR.
UKL = Bilcul bir'ay the Qaum which holds true to Vaheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Vaheguru Ji Ki Fateh knows that ik na ik dhin RAJ KAREGA KHALSA!jashb, on 27 Dec 2013 - 16:04, said:
J = Apparently I was there as a baby in 1984 but obviously I don't remember anything of it. I remember very fondly the rallies that took place in later years when I was a young child. Starting at Hyde Park, finishing on the Embankment. There was then a gap of about 10 years - never heard about any rally then. No coaches left from the Gurdwara.
UKL = There were always protest marches annually bir'ay but at the height of GOI Black Cats activity some committee's were genuinely confused as to what they should do.
J = Then 2004 happened. First advertisements of a panthic event ever heard on panjaab radio, akaash radio, amrit bani radio stations (there were no Sikh TV channels back then). Huge hype. Coaches went packed from the Gurdwara.
UKL = The only one positive strand where I see we have made progress in the last 30 years is in terms of greater Sikh media presence.
J = I remember meeting an uncle in Hyde Park before the start of the march and asking him why doesn't the remembrance and freedom really happen every year? He was like "it does. This year is just the first time anyone's turned up!!!"
UKL = Tv stations (of which I believe we should have one merged channel btw), radio stations, social networking and internet sites have been a massive help in boosting numbers in recent years.
J = 2004 was massive. 2014 will be even bigger.
UKL = Agreed. But we need to seriously harness June 2014 for the active upliftment of the Panth in practical terms relating to drugs, infanticide, alcohol, biraderi, illiteracy and poverty rather than thinking that slogans alone will do all the work for us. Cold hard money raised coupled with seva ploughed into combatting the modern day forms of Genocide are crucial if we are not to waste the opportunity that June 2014 represents. Basically the game now is about more funds for books rather than bullets.
J = I never understood the meaning of the marches when I was a child, but as a 20-year old I understood very well. Slowly, my whole view of India and the terrorist Indian Flag totally turned on its head. No longer was it a tool to wind up pakistanis. Now I saw it, minus Indian propaganda, for what it was; a symbol of Oppression. The zaalim taranga. I would never support tyrannical Indian rule ever again. I would only support the Khalsa. RAJ KARAYGA KHALSA!UKL = I hear you bir'ay. Without a doubt our loyalty should only ever be to Nishan Sahib and Sarbat Da Bhala rather than a corrupt terrorist centralised state that oppresses the innocent. The Khalsa Panth is nirvair with love for all within the beautiful spectrum of humanity so desiring freedom from oppression is something that no Sikh should ever have to apologise for. However, I believe we have much LESS to lose (and more to gain) by substituting the word RIGHTS for Freedom and terming the Rally as a "Peace" March.
1. We get more attendance ... i think we can hit 200,000 if we market it as a Remembrance+Rights Peace March.
2. Greater attendance results in greater local and international coverage.
3. We increase Unity internally by virtue of the fact only self-haters could possibly oppose or not participate in a Remembrance and Rights Peace March.
4. By using wording which would make the Rally palatable to GOI's friends such as USA, UK etc then Cameron and the majority of UK politicians that seek Sikh votes in 2015 would have no political option but to endorse the wave towards achieving Justice.
5. Instead of getting Sikh organisations labelled as terrorist outfits we can actively lobby for Overseas Developement Funds to go towards uplifting poor Sikhs.
6. Certain Biraderi Golak committees do not send any representation annually. Via the substitution of one word I think it would be hard for them to stop their own Sangat participating. This is vital if we are going to attempt Gurdwara mergers in the UK as a pre-cursor to ensuring that the Panth only has one saanjha Gurdwara per locality.
http://www.sikhsanga...per-local-area/
7. In the context that we are only 7 years away from the 2021 Indian Census and the RSS aim of Sikhs being a minority in the whole of East Punjab by then (not just Doaba where we are currently a minority) I strongly believe that history will judge us very harshly if we don't have the awareness to realise that combatting drugs, biraderi, illiteracy, poverty, infanticide, alcohol + health indicators (cancer/fertility) as vital foundation blocks without which no house of shelter free from GOI terrorism can stand.
8. Those such as Namdhari's, Nirankari's, Radha Soami's, Dera Ballan, Hindu Mandirs and non-Sikhs etc would have no excuse not to engage and support the mainstream Sikh community in our quest for justice and equality for all. Via greater engagement with the said communities we can build bridges as increased parchaar is the best way to turn our erstwhile enemies into future loyal members of the Panth rather than the Congress sycophants many of the leaders of the same currently are.
9. If we can triple attendance out of nowhere in June 2014 on the basis of a Remembrance and "Rights" (Peace) March ... that would give us scope to start claiming it as an "anti-Genocide" march from 2015 onwards which could bring even greater numbers of mainstream UK population participation and provide even greater scope for parchaar and fundraising for upliftment of our Panth's poorest and most suffering sections and thereafter towards Sarbat Da Bhala.
10. We have to definitely recognise that USA, Russia, UK and France all want a united India as a counterweight to China and export market. China itself illegally annexed the independent nation of Tibet and recognises that Sikhs as a 1.8% minority within India are not worth assisting if a 1.3 billion population export market is jeopardised as a result. Delhi itself realises it cannot relinquish terrorist control of East Punjab so long as Pakistan remains a united nation in its current form. Therefore, given that our Qaum is considerably worse off than we were in 1984 on all the main indices we need to take a seriously different approach rather than simply chanting slogans (which I believe will give the Indian media the chance to paint us as terrorists and actively make things worse on the ground for our brothers and sisters in Punjab). The biggest proof I can give in support of why we urgently need to take a different approach and focus on June 2014 being all about combatting drugs, illiteracy, female infantcide and biraderi is that in this millenium all those issues have got worse year after year. So whilst we think that increased attendance at rallies for Khalistan this millenium have moved us forward, the reality on the ground in Punjab is that every indicator is getting worse. The fact that we Sikhs are a minority in Doaba (where a plebiscite for independence would be roundly voted down) should be a wake up call that we need to get the basics right ... and that we shouldn't run before we can walk in the context that in the years after 1984 there was almost 100% unity within the Qaum and the Panthic self-defence (against terrorism by GOI) Lehar had full support prior to Black Cats and Beanta killing so many innocents. Now we see bakhre bakhre Gurdware. GOI in 1984 was 100 times stronger than the Panth in terms of economic and military resources. GOI is immeasurably stronger today compared to what it was back 30 years. We are immeasurably weaker in our spiritual adherence to Sikhi nowadays and hence talk of Khalistan and freedom is more of a distraction taking our eyes off the ball of the sad reality in front of us that needs to be addressed first. In simple terms, once we have 99% literacy, 99% not partaking in drugs or alcohol, 100% saanjhe Gurdware and Qaum, an equal male/female ratio and poverty eliminated ... self-rule will be a formality as each and every man, woman and child would be willing to give their life to oppose (GOI) terrorism if Khalsa Raj over all of India was not demographically likely. Obviously, I don't have all the answers bir'ay but this is a subject that Sarbat Khalsa, Sikh Council UK and FSO all need to discuss and decide how we use June 2014 to push the Panth forward short term (and thereby faster towards ultimate freedom from tyranny).To commemorate 30years of continuing injustice we UK Sangat need to raise a minimum of £30million by June 8th 2014 to push forward projects that defeat drugs, alcohol, female infanticide, illiteracy, biraderi, cancer and poverty in Punjab which would be deployed by a Khalsa Fauj of volunteers and openly audited to ensure that every penny of the said funds goes into Panthic Upliftment for those areas as opposed to corrupt gain or anything that could fall under the West's anti-terrorism purview. At the same time we should try our best to extract £30 million plus of Overseas Development Funding from Cameron etc given the UK Government's disgusting role in support Indira+GOI in 1984 and even today (whilst Sikhs are still patiently and peacefully in search of justice).
Via Gift Aid our donations would increase further still previously outlined by posters on this forum before:
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This is what i read from your post blah blah blah. Come back when you actually make sense. Why don't you put up a picture of longowal and Sant ji up to say Longowal was Panthic. Honestly i cannot say how stupid you are. No wonder Sikhs are called naive. It is because of people like you flapping their gums.
If i continue this discussion I'm regret it. So im stop right here. Word of advise, take your head out of n30 you know what and pay some attention to Jonny 101 post.
UKL = Jaspreet Paji, first off I support HSM Paji's right to his opinion on events. Why not let us all debate matters where we all have differing opinions with a spirit of brotherhood? HSM Paji, you, N30 Paji, 559 Paji, Jonny Paji are all on the same team so if we disagree why should we get too direct or too personal for Sangat's liking? The Singh may have been justified, perhaps he was not ... we can only judge when in possession of all facts. But more importantly even if our viewpoints differ on this we still all unitedly need to fight against drugs, infanticide, alcohol, biraderi, illiteracy issues within the Qaum so why not let all of us strive to see our common ground first (more often than we focus on our minor differences). N30 Paji is not exactly a fan of Singh Sabha ideology, 559 Paji might not appreciate Panthpreet Singh Khalsa Ji's katha and Jonny Paji might believe in miracles but they are three of the stalwarts on this forum that the vast majority of the Sangat respect as honest GurSikhs even when we might strongly disagree with them on subjects from time.
People like you are longowal; eat from sadh sangat hands and then try to rationalize killing them. Your first step is to fill your nindiya bank. You have already started to go against the Khalsa Panth. Won't be long till you are groomed into a junior longowal. How full was your master longowal's nindiya bank?
Just like your hindu brothers you insult those who saved your family from being slaved by Muslims. You stink of rot, hence no Gursikh or as you put it pindu wants to sit next to you.
UKL = Even though Singh559 is not fully appreciative of Longowal Ji and feels that he betrayed the Panth, I will tell you straight that I fully 100% respect Longowal Sahib's dedication to the Panth and I fully believe he saw the writing on the wall in 1984 that GOI intended the Genocide of a whole generation of GurSikhs thereafter and he tried his best to prevent that (even if that meant people would view him as a traitor). I don't care if any Sikh reads a single books and after that disses Longowal Ji and Tohra Sahib ... both (imho) were 100% committed to Sikhi in their own ways and I will try to make time to explain to you on PM why I strongly feel that. It's very sad that we Sikhs have a tendency to label people as sellouts or RSS just because we can't appreciate the different vision or interpretation someone else holds. I'm no supporter of "Sant Baba" Harnam Singh "Khalsa" Dhumma ("Bhindrawala") or Dhumma as you may refer to him but even in respect of him there is a line of thinking to say that Mehta Taksal have achieved more by aligning with Badal Dal than they did by aligning with Congress in 1980 (in opposition to Akali Dal at the time).
UKL = If 559 Paji stinks, then I wish more young Sikhs in the Diaspora would "smell" like him ... in wearing a Dastar, renouncing biraderi affiliations and appreciating Bhai Pinderpal Singh Ji and Sant Maskeen Ji as much as he does at his age all in a state like California!
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It just shows how much India feared the Sikhs that they involved foreign govt in their genocide plans. The commandos that had been trained got such a response from the Sikhs (simple village boys with world war 2 weapons) that they fled and asked for tanks as they could not face the Sikhs. More than half of Indian commandos were wiped out. The Sikhs completely defeated them . This should also go down in military history of the world alongside the stand at Muktsar
You're absolutely right Paji and it was indeed Gurmail Singh Ji of Sikh Council on the line yesterday.
You know what our enemies fear the most? It's the common man of India becoming Sikh ideologically and spiritually in their millions.
Even though the military defence of innocent pilgrims at Darbar Sahib was indeed not a "loss" in that sense, the more painful defeat that can only give us shame is the drugs, alcohol, illiteracy, biraderi, infanticide, cancer and corruption situation 30 years on from 1984.
What Cameron and the Tory scum who aided Indira need to do is pledge tens of millions of development funding to help uplift our Qaum from the state we are in, as some of feeble apology for their collusion with Indira 30 years ago ... if they expect to see Sikh votes in 2015.
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The moral of the story dont start fights you cannot finish. If you had continued the path of non-violence you would have gotten what you need eventually. Instead, people like yourself nearly destroyed punjab. It still has not recovered.
UKL = Amandeep your wording above is utterly wrong, arrogant and offensive. I hope you will have the grace to retract your first sentence from the above. In essence, so Sikhs suffer discrimination at the hands of our central government opponents in Delhi and we Sikhs are the ones that "started it" in your eyes?? History clearly illuminates the facts that Sikhs are the innocent victims since 1980 (and indeed earlier too). Sikhs do not start fights as aggressors. However, we will react in self-defence if peaceful means fail. Prior to the Genocidal attack on Harmandir Sahib and 35 of the main Gurdwara's as well as the Genocide unleashed in November 1984 Sikhs used solely peaceful means to request justice from a terrorist regime headed by Indira. In response to the systematic Genocide of lakhs (hundreds of thousands) of young Sikhs simply for keeping kes do you think the whole Panth would sit back and relax? The Pakistani's killed 20% of our Qaum in Pakistan in 1947 and then acted surprised when Sikhs defended ourselves from ethnic cleansing that so-called upper caste Muslim Jatts/Rajputs/Awans/Arains/Syeds initiated in East Punjab against non-Muslims. Indira's terrorist regime killed off 1% of our entire Qaum's population (to put that into context ... the equivalent of if 13 million Indians were killed tomorrow) ... so would you simply sit down and undertake a fast if 13million Indians were killed tomorrow by Pakistani Punjabi Muslims like the Ajmal Kassab from the Muslim Butt (Brahmin) caste!? Thus terrorist persecution of innocent peaceful Sikhs by the central Government was bound to result in Sikhs demanding an end to terrorism orchestrated from Delhi.
UKL = The Sikh Panth is a Qaum that is entirely peaceful with Sarbat Da Bhala (the welfare of all) as our motto and Kirat Karo Naam Japo Vand Chhako as our guiding philosophy. We never start wars ... but regardless of the GhalluGhara's (Genocides) we face we will always emerge triumphant. One on one (or against reasonable odds) we don't fear anybody, we don't retreat and we don't surrender. Though Indira and the central Government adversaries of Sikhs started the war, the Panth will emerge victorious, if not today, if not tomorrow, the Panth will win in the end so long as we truly believe in Vaheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Vaheguru Ji Ki Fateh. Khalistan as a concept drafted by Indira was limited to the 50,000 sq/km of East Punjab. Khalsa Raj (for the benefit of all) can arguably provide justice to billions across 3,280,000 sq/km of present day Indian territory as a pre-cursor to global justice. The question is which side are you going to be on? Do you want justice for all (Sikhi) or continue spouting apologetics for the evil unjust status quo?
Actually if we continued the path of non violence we would have gotten shot while we were peacefully protesting, we wouldve gotten police agents infiltrate the peaceful protests and commit acts of violence in order to justify the use of force to stamp down on the protests and we would have gotten tens of thousands of youth tossed in jail with no charges. Do you know how I know this ? BECAUSE THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED Are you damn blind to all the non violent means that were pursued from 1947-1984 during the punjabi suba movement, during indiras state of emergency during the dharam yudh morcha look at what we got in turn . Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable.
UKL = Paji you expressed the truth perfectly. Does Hindustani really think he would remain peaceful and not fight for freedom from oppression and terrorism if Pakistan killed 13million Indians tomorrow whilst obliterating the top 35 Hindu Mandirs and worshippers inside them in India tomorrow!? Of course not!
Jonny = That is something they just don't understand. Until the rise of Sant Baba Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale, Sikhs only used peaceful means.
UKL = Paji Sant Ji only used solely peaceful means right up until June 1984 (which was self-defence). Sant Ji never once called for Khalistan. Mehta Taksal were so peaceful they even supported Congress in the 1980 elections so that Indira Gandhi could regain power. Only when they realised Indira had duped them into sabotaging the Akali push for the Anandpur Sahib Resolution did the peaceful Mehta Taksal realise what kind of terrorist monster Indira Gandhi truly was.
Jonny = But what did that result in? the Hindu rulers furthur partitioned Punjab where by Punjabi speaking areas were permanently cut away from Punjab, Chandigarh was also separated, tens of thousands of Sikhs went to jail in the various morchas but still the Hindu rulers remained unmoved. Sant Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale is the very manifestation of Sikhs realizing the Hindu rulers do not care for peaceful means.
UKL = Agreed Paji. But you know what ... our enemies think they have us boxed in because we are numerically an insignificant demographic (1.8%) within the Indian population today. However with increased Parchaar and making campaigns against drugs/alcohol/illiteracy/cancer/biraderi/corruption our primary (united) focus and increasing classification of sehajdhari non-Punjabi's as members of the Sikh Panth, we are capable of hitting 100 million population in this century. Once we get to that level (if we are smart enough to work unitedly for the Panth and Sarbat Da Bhala) then it is inevitable that one day in the future the whole of India will be governed justly by Khalsa Raj as a pre-cursor to global justice.
Jonny = After hundreds of years of slavery, Hindus have gotten their Raaj but they could not digest this new found Raaj. They began to rule unfairly especially with the Sikhs who stood by them at their hour of need. They will get divine punishment for their ungratefulness, it's just a matter of time. After 2014 watch what happens in Kashmir in the following years.
UKL = Paji i don't think the rich criminal elite bureaucrats from Delhi that feed off the blood, sweat and tears of the poor are representative of 1000 million so-called Hindu's any more than Gill, Brar or Badal are representative of Sikhs. Part of the Hindutva agenda is to polarise Sikhs into viewing ALL (or most) Hindu's as our opponents (which is not the case). In fact erstwhile Hindu's have and will be the main new blood to revitalise the Khalsa Panth in this century. As our RSS enemies understand that if we begin to realise that hundreds of millions of poor and oppressed so-called Hindu's are actually natural born Sikhs (albeit sehajdhari) then the RSS political base will evaporate overnight. We should strive to explain to the 90% or so of so-called Hindu's who have no enmity with Sikhs that they should join the Sikh Panth just as our Panj Pyaaray came from South India, Gujarat, Orissa, Uttar Pradesh and present day Pakistan originally. The last 30years prove beyond all doubt that there is no divine punishment (the innocent have continued to suffer ... whilst the terrorists like Sajjan Kumar prosper) so we should focus on uplifting on ending drugs/alcohol/illiteracy/biraderi/cancer/corruption endemic within our Qaum today to deliver man made justice in the future.
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Another questions I have is:
Sikhi says that all religions can lead to god? Does that also mean religions like those practiced in Ancient Greece, Rome, Egypt, Norse gods like Thor?
UKL = I don't quite believe that Sikhi explicitly states that all religions (however random such as strands of religions like Satanism, Al Qaeda Wahhabism or Ku Klux Klan Christians) will necassarily lead to God. However, there are indeed multiple spiritual paths that if practised with sincerity will lead to God (albeit that I strongly believe that Sikhi is the most direct shortest route for humanity's wellbeing)
1. In response to your last answer, since reading gurbani I have read that doing charity work is not as good as doing naam simran.
2. The absence of belief in god in northern europe kinda shows that you don't need to believe in god to live a good life. What do you say to that?
UKL = 1>Imho my interpretation of Sikhi (guided by Giani Ditt Singh Ji's Singh Sabha ideology and the example of Sant Puran Singh Ji) is firmly that charitable efforts for those less fortunate are the truest form (puratan definition) of Naam Simran (in contrast to the recent interpretation by some that Naam Simran refers to verbal repetition only). I understand and believe that Naam Simran must be accompanied practical good deeds thereafter for it to be truly meaningful of which charitable efforts are probably the best expression.
Panthpreet Singh Khalsa Ji explains the point better than I can (as he explains that simple verbal repetetion is not enough for GurSikhs)
UKL = 2>It's quite self-evident that two atheist doctors serving on Medicins Sans Frontieres ships are better people than myself or Prakash Badal as two poor examples of those who state that we are Sikh. So simply believing in a certain faith or indeed simply in the One God does not make any man or woman better (or worse) per se. However, our accompanying life actions towards others do distinguish between human beings and I firmly believe that 100 random Amritdhari GurSikhs will generally live their lives in a better manner for the welfare of all (Sarbat Da Bhala) than a random sample of 100 atheists. I firmly believe all atheists and agnostics that care about their fellow (downtrodden) human beings should at least align themselves politically with the Sikh Panth for the welfare of all (Sarbat Da Bhala).
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I've recently begun question my faith in Sikhi.
I cannot think straight since having these doubts.
We believe that god created the Universe and Earth and that he is everywhere. We also believe in reincarnation and that the soul is reborn many times until it is liberated.
Why did it take so long for humans to arrive on Earth if we are the highest life form?
UKL = Who said anything about humans being the highest life form per se? Surely animals are better than human beings involved in the genocide and slavery of others. But yes, conscious intelligence should theoretically unite our soul with God (= all that is Good within the Universe and beyond).
What was the point of the dinosaurs etc.
UKL = I believe they evolved naturally via the wonder of Nature/God as you may wish to call it.
Did our souls live as dinosaurs?
UKL = It would arguably make sense given that there were no human beings around millions of years ago when the Dinosaurs ruled.
That was hundreds of millions of years ago, was the soul going through all of those life forms until we became humans?
UKL = Who is to know? Why not concentrate on what you can do right here right now to help others as Sant Puran Singh Ji focussed on doing?
Who is to say that we won't further evolve into a higher being?
UKL = I believe we will. How does that contradict Sikhi (which supports evolution)?
When did humans first start to think of god? I'm sure the first cavemen had no idea of god.
UKL = The concept of righteous actions (what one may arguably perceive as God) existed within cavemen and provably even exists within animals that care for others (for example not even belonging to their species).
Why is India/Middle East such poor places with many social problems and inequality?
UKL = The answer is 100% to do with human-upon-human exploitation and nothing to do with God as such.
These are the places where most of the worlds religions formed yet they are highly corrupt and having shocking human rights records.
UKL = It is due to human actions that the current scenario of injustice exists. Sikhi aims to correct that via Sarbat Da Bhala (the welfare and benefit of all)
Northern Europe in contrast is quite a tolerant place, is wealthy, has more equality and is less corrupt. Most people there are atheists. Compare this with Southern Europe where people are more devout and corruption and racism is more rampant.
UKL = In northern Europe the fertile conditions for human-upon-human exploitation do not exist to such a degree as in under-developed nations.
How do we know that the gurus didn't just make Sikhi up?
UKL = You tell me? Tell me a single aspect of Sikhi which does not aim and direct us towards working for the benefit and upliftment of humankind (and animals).
If god wants us to worship him, then why not just tell us?
UKL = God doesn't need our superficial vocal worship I agree with you. But God has indeed told us via Guru Sahib's wisdom and light channeled through the Guru Granth Sahib and our own conscience's ability to decipher right from wrong and worship God by helping others less fortunate than ourselves.
I don't want to offend anyone I just want some answers.
UKL = No problem but while you ponder your answers remember that millions are dying of malnutrition, malaria, HIV etc, etc. Sikhi and Guru Sahib ask us to utilise our life to play a part in ending that injustice and others. I hope you get that and focus on the wretched reality rather than abstract concepts.
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Are you sure that you want to support Kejriwal, Bhushan and Shashi Kant? They are all bamans you know. From the manuvadi lehar. And Mr. Modi is an OBC.
I hope the AAP does well. But there is an ace yet to be played by Mr. Modi that will not come until February or March.
Thanks
UKL = Shashi Kant, Kejriwal, Bhushan are all sehajdhari Sikhs. Guru Sahib teaches us that one's ancestry is irrelavant and that our actions are what determine the achievements (good or bad) of our lives. Shashi Kant acknowledges himself as a casteless Sikh in the same lineage of great Gumukhs like Shaheed Bhai Sati Das Ji and Shaheed Bhai Mati Das Ji (the so-called terrorists of the Mughal era according to Aurangzeb). And though Kejriwal is from a Haryanvi Bania ancestry just because he wears a topi it does not make him a Brahmin. In fact, he is a sehajdhari Sikh who regularly pays obeisance at Gurdware often and more and more so-called Hindu's are realising that Sikhi is the ultimate source and platform for justice within India and globally. Mr Bhushan can hardly be called a Brahmin when he detests the Manuvadi mindset.
Either you so DUMB that you don't understand or you don't want to understand.
The Manuwadi mindset has nothing to do with the caste/race of a person in power and its family origin, we are talking of mindset, we are not talking of Manu Smriti. We are having some deep thoughts/some intellectual thoughts being discussed here, please contribute if you have something serious to contribute, else what you post is pretty basic, we all know that.
Take an example - Ms. Mayawati - earlier CM of UP, although she claims to be a champion of SC/ST rights, but she spends thousands of crores on her statue, her garlande of flowers is worth lakhs. So, she is fooling around people who support her, she is herself following the Manuwadi concept - Manuwadi mindset, although she is SC - which is exploiting the money of people/exploiting the common man, poor people for her own wealthy and luxurories desires.
As you are an active member of RSS Terrorist group, your sole goal is to create political and communal divisions by even classifying Ms. Devyani as OBC,and Mr. Bhushan as Brahmin etc. Even if Bhushan be Brahmin, their mindset is non-Manuwadi, even if Mayawati/Devyani/NaMo be SC/OBC, they are still following Manuwadi mindset. Hilarious!
UKL = Well stated, Khalsa Ji and I believe Manuvadi is the best label to use in order not to alienate new future members of the Sikh Panth who may (through no fault of their own) be born into one community or another similar to the likes of Gangu and General Brar.
And thats how the big boys play......
UKL = What have the "big boys" done for the world in terms of the tens of millions they have killed, raped, ensalved, exploited and discriminated? Why not join a demographically smaller movement for justice called the Sikh Panth that seeks to measure success in terms of equality, fraternity, justice, development and kindness to one's fellow human beings?
To which I replied on another thread:
So as far as we are concerned, it's a mystery who killed the terrorist cop Atwal. But there is absolutely no mystery as to who killed those two Sikh cops yet the Indian government did not order an attack by the Indian army on the Hindus of the Hindu Suraksha Samiti and it's leader Pawan Kumar Sharma.
UKL = Well stated Jonny Paji. Sikhi is the only open enemy of terrorism and yet others try to besmirch Sikhi with the very thing it opposes!
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Great to see your posts once again Paji.
My top 5 would be the birth of the Khalsa Panth, Shaheedi (Jagat Qurbani) of Dhan Dhan Guru Tegh Bahadur Ji Maharaj, Shaheedi (Jagat Qurbani) of Dhan Dhan Guru Arjan Dev Ji Maharaj, Shaheedian of Bhai Mati Das Ji, Bhai Sati Das Ji and Bhai Dayala Ji and anything from the life of Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj such as the Muslim Pir who tried to kill Guru Sahib and Bhai Mardana Ji (as the first Sikh for having renounced Islam) as Guru Sahib explained that ... in stark contradiction to Christian, Muslim and Hindu philosphy (where slaves, dalits and women are oppressed) ... it is the poor, the weak and the oppressed who are in fact more "noble" and closer to God via their righteous actions.
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Innocent people died and suffered on both sides of the border. This is the other side's story.
“I was born in 1933 in village Sill, Tehsil Kharar, Ambala. Our village had three wards wherein the Muslims Rajputs constituted the majority. Most of the non-Muslims belonged to the lower castes — sweepers, cotton fluffers and barbers.
Whilst it is true Jonny Paji that innocent people of all faiths died in the Genocide of non-Muslims (and it's response) orchestrated and initiated by Jinnah and his Islamic Jihadi cohorts, certain facts have been excluded from the so-called upper caste Muslims narrative.
Namely, that when the McMahon line was announced the Jatt Muslims, Rajput Muslims, Awan caste Muslims, Arain/Saini/Kamboh caste Muslims and Syed Muslims in East Punjab genuinely believed that they could butcher the Sikhs out of East Punjab as well in order to unite it with demarcated Pakistan (since the Muslim population matched our own in East Punjab).
So in areas where Muslim jagirdars ruled the roost they somewhat naively thought that the Sikhs could be ethnically cleansed out of East Punjab since to them the Sikh Panth were mere sweepers etc and hence the Muslim jagirdars instigated killings against Sikhs in East Punjab in the first instance.
In fact the so-called upper caste Muslims would continually taunt the Sikhs that the 1st Sikh Bhai Mardana Ji (was a Kanjar in Muslim eyes), similarly in contrast to Ranghrete Guru Ke Bete and Dhan Dhan Ravidas Ji Maharaj the Muslims often despised Sikhs as being the aulaadh of chure-chamar as they would term Sikhs.
When the so-called upper caste Muslim Zamindars found Sikhs willing to stand up to them in East Punjab, only then did they drop their plans for annexation of East Punjab forcibly into Pakistan in 1947.
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I am pure nationalist. Those that think that India are worst than the taliban are free to live in taliban country. How many are willing to take this challenge?
UKL = I don't think acsap Paji was saying that Afghanistan is a better place for Sikhs to reside than East Punjab ... i think his comment alluded more to the fact that even the Taliban would not unleash Genocide upon their own Pathan brethren ... in the way Delhi bureaucrats co-ordinated against the Sikh Qaum.
I will address your points one by one.
Bhindranwale was responsible for the murder of a famous newspaper editor (forget his name) arrested and released because he had political connections with the Congress much like Saajan Kumar that you gripe about today. And his followers hijacked a plane, derailed a train amongst other things. His release was not a decision by the courts but a political decision. It is this decision to release him that haunts the GOI even today hence the strictness against the current prisoners.
UKL = LJN was a lackey for Indira. The world is well aware of that. Jonny Paji rightly pointed out that LJN even offered to bear false witness for Indira and Zail Sin in order to facilitate the Gurbachana as a Congress proxy. When Mehta Taksal supported Congress LJN praised them to the rooftops but after they had reached their sell by date for Congress, he did as his paymasters ordered in slandering the seminary. As Jonny Paji, rightly pointed out the so-called Dal Khalsa were not from Mehta Taksal but DK were widely acknowledged to Congress proxies operated by Zail Sin to whip up hysteria connected to the Congress-coined term of Khalistan ... purely to deny the Akali Dal push for the Anandpur Sahib resolution.
In fact, Mr. Jinnahs Muslim League decimated sikh populations the worst and made it their jihadi mission. Mr. Jinnah is on record calling sikhs as "bastards" and asked "Why are they (sikhs) still in Pakistan" code for kill them all.
UKL = Agree with you regarding the dog Jinnah
Nope, not the sole "lie"
DIG Atwal enters the Harimandir Sahib along with wife to pray, as he is sitting he is shot in the back of his head. His body lies in the precincts for nearly 2 days until.
A JCO of the Indian ARmy is on routine duty by standing guard near the Golden Temple, abducted, skinned alive and thrown off the top of the Akal Takht.
UKL = Jonny Paji has rightfully answered your points relating to the above.
76 Hindus are machine gunned to death while watching Ramayan in Hoshiarpur in 1981. You want more?
UKL = What does terrorism inflicted by the then Government of India operatives directed by Indira have to do with Sikhs? Sikhs protect the innocent. Sikhi opposes terrorism to the hilt. Guru Tegh Bahadur Ji gave their life to oppose terrorism (and spread peace/truth/equality/justice) as did Guru Arjan Dev Ji and Guru Gobind Singh Ji and all Guru Sahiban from Guru Nanak Dev Ji onwards.
Punjab Kesri loses not only Lala Jagat Narain but 76 members of their newspaper (vendors, editors, relatives, hawkers)
UKL = You surely are aware that the innocent hawkers etc were killed by GOI operatives in order to whip up anti-terrorism Hindutva fervour. Sikhs do not kill poor innocent people. Sikhi liberates poor people from Oppression and bondage. It was great propaganda by the GOI to claim their own killings of innocent Hindu brothers as being perpetrated by Sikhs. It killed two birds with one stone for Indira ... she successfully maligned the Sikhs, whilst whipping up Hindutva vote bank politics.
My views are anti-khalistani, specifically Bhindranwale type khalistanis. The khalistanis that I met (dont know if they were khalistanis actually) when I was young lad of about 4 years old came into our house late at night in Moga armed to the teeth looking for food and water. My mother and father made them the food but they were really nice though. Knew we were hindus but said our fight is not with you but with the Indian government. If anybody bothers you let us know and they left.
UKL = Does that not tell you something? That even the explicit Genocide of Sikhs, those that opposed the Nehru-Gandhi empire's genocidal aims still made it clear that their fight was NOT with Hindu's. That should make it clear that Sikhs bear no enmity to anyone except oppressors and murderers.
The ironic thing is that it was the hindu villagers giving them food and shelter while the sikh villagers wanted them out. But I digress.
UKL = Well you know why, don't you? Sikhs even suspected of giving water to anti-GOI fighters had their entire families brutally killed by GOI soldiers.
I will not even get into certain khalistanis calling up Chandigarh university where my mother taught and telling the hindu employees to leave or get killed. But I digress.
UKL = Do you seriously believe that Sikhs made the telephone call? Sikhi teaches us not to discruiminate and to the shelter the weak (hence the Khalsa Panth). You really should be aware that the call was made by GOI Black Cat operatives to whip up anti-Sikh fear and hatred amongst innocent Hindu's.
http://www.nytimes.com/1988/03/04/world/44-slain-in-sikh-hindu-violence.html
ALL THE INNOCENT HINDU'S MURDERED IN THE LIST WERE KILLED BY THE GOVERNMENT OF INDIA'S BLACK CAT OPERATIVES.
THE LIST BELOW HAS NO CONNECTION TO SIKHS WHATSOEVER, OTHER THAN BEING A WEAK ATTEMPT TO FALSELY MALIGN THE PANTH.
44 Slain in Sikh-Hindu ViolenceBy SANJOY HAZARIKA, Special to the New York TimesPublished: March 04, 1988
At least 32 people were killed and 25 wounded when gunmen attacked a village crowd celebrating a Hindu festival in the Punjab Thursday night, the state government said today. Another 12 people were killed in separate incidents Wednesday night.
In Thursday night's incident, Indian news agencies quoted the police in the town of Jalandhar as saying the terrorists, PORTRAYED to be militant Sikhs (BUT ACTUALLY GOVERNMENT OF INDIA BLACK CAT OPERATIVES), burst into Kari Sari village about six miles from the industrial town of Hoshiarpur and opened fire, killing both Sikhs and Hindus. No arrests have yet been reported in the incident, but police officials are conducting a major search of the area.
THE LIST BELOW CATALOGUES THE HUNDREDS OF INNOCENT HINDU'S KILLED BY GOVERNMENT OF INDIA BLACK CAT OPERATIVES IN ORDER TO FALSELY MALIGN THE SIKH PANTH AS WELL AS TO CAMOUFLAGE THE BRUTAL GENOCIDE OF LAKHS OF INNOCENT SIKHS BY GOI.
Oct. 1983 Dhilwan 6 Hindu bus passangers killed.Oct. 21, 83 Gobindgarh Massacre of rail passengersSep. 12, 84 Batala 8 hindu bus passengers killedJune 22, 84 Irish sea Air India Boeing 747 blasted by bomb, all 329 passengers including scores of Sikhs killed.Feb. 86 Nakodar 15 persons killed and many injured in indiscriminate firing.March 6,86 Kapurthala Many innocent persons killed in indiscriminate firing.March 28,1986 Ludhiana 13 people (Hindus) killed in indiscriminate firing in Dresi groundMarch 29,1986 Mallian 20 innocent labourers killed (Jalandhar)July 25,1986 Mukatsar 15 Hindu bus passengers gunned down.Oct. 31,1986 Ludhiana 8 migrant and local industrail workers, all hindus, gunned down in indiscriminate firingon Daba road.Nov. 30, 1986 Khudda 24 Hindu bus passengers gunned down.July 87 Lalru 80 bus pessengers killed in Fatehabad on three Haryana Roadways buses.Aug. 6, 1987 Jagdev Kalan 13 Hindus gunned down.(Majitha)Sep. 28,1987 Alawalpur 5 killed and 8 injured, firing near Geetha Bhawan.(Jalandhar)Oct. 20,1987 Delhi 12 persons shot dead at various places in Delhi on Diwali day.Jan. 15,1988 Dhadial Nijhran 8 members of a family including 2 women and 3 children killed in this village near Batala.Feb. 19,1988 Bombs exploded by Babbar Khalsa at Gurdaspur, Hoshiarpur and Patiala. 12 person killed,over 50 injured.March 2,1988 Bhaian 8 members of a family killed.(Verowal)March 3,1988 Kahri sahri 35 persons shot dead, 50 others injured, indiscriminate firing at a festival gathering.(Hoshiarpur)March 31,1988 Theh Rajbah 18 members of a Rajput family shot dead at village theh Rajbah under police station(Patti) Harike, Sub- division Patti in Amritsar distt.April 2,88 Ramgam 6 persons masssacred in this village under P.S. Gharinda. 18 more persons killed in other(Amritsar) parts of PinjabMay 15,88 40 persons gunned down, 100 others injured in different incidents at Samana, Patiala,Jalandhar and MukerianMay 16,1988 26 killed (3 member of a family, 3 bus passengers and 20 others) in Amritsar, Ludhiana,Jalandhar and Gurdaspur.May 17,1988 Kharar 35 labourers killedMay 24,1988 Dhaliwal 6 members of a family massacred.(Nakodar)June 19,1988 Kurukshetra 15 persons blown to pieces when a bomb exploded at a TV shop during the TV serialRamayana's telecast.June 25,1988 Moga 26 RSS volunteers killed. 22 injured in an indiscriminate firing in Nehru Park.Sept. 7,1988 Rure Aasal 15 rail passengers killed, 25 injured at Rure Aasal Riy. Station near Khem Karan inAmritsar district.Nov. 1,1988 Pathankot Bomb blast in a Jammu-bound bus, many killed or injured.Nov. 1988 Majaat 32 Migrant labourers working on SYL Canal gunned downNov. 3.1988 Sufianwala 11 bus passengers killed by a BTFK gang. alighting them from a Dera Baba Nanak bound buskilled all Hindus.Nov. 4,1988 Lodhuwal 19 labourers shot dead at Govt. seed farm Lodhuwal.(Ludhiana)Nov. 1988 Batala 25 persons killed in a bomb blast in Chakkri bazar.Sirhind Indiscriminate firing in bazar, many killed.Pathankot Bomb blast near a tempo overloaded with passengers. Many including a woman killed.Nov. 22,1988 Kaithal 25 persons massacred. 37 others injured.(Haryana)Nov. 22.1988 Batala 22 persons killed, many injured in indiscriminate firing in bazar on the eve of Guru Nanakbirthday.Dec., 1988 Makhu 7 Hindu passengers kidnapped from a Chandigarh bound bus and killed.Dec. 7,1988 Gujran 5 members of a marriage party killed in indiscriminate firing at Gujran on Zeera-Makhuroad.May 21,1989 Chakk Kania 7 members of a family, including a CPI (M) leader Comrade Dalip Singh massacred.BaggaKalan 4 members of a family killed.Aug. 27,1989 Kabarwala Indiscriminate firing for 50 mintues on a train at Kabarwala, station, dozens shot dead.(Abohar)Oct. 5, 1989 Kandhwala 5 members of a family shot dead.(Fazilka)Nov. 1989 Patiala 19 Hindu students massacred in Thapar Engg. College who had come from other states toparticipate in a youth festival.Jan. 19,1990 Bahmanwal 8 massacred including 6 Hindus(Majitha)March 7,1990 Abohar 32 shot dead in indiscriminate firing in crowded bazar.March 19,1990 Talwandi Bhai 14 persons shot dead.March 19,1990 Chandigarh 6 persons killed, 27 injured in a bomb blast.Nawan Shahar 11 persons killed in a bomb blast.April 3,1990 Batala 36 persons killed in a bomb bias.April 19,1990 Pathankot 15 pessengers killed, 40 injured in a bomb blast in a bus.May 28,1990 Ferozepur 13 Bihari labourers shot deadMay 30,1990 Talwandi Bhai 10 persons massacredJune 4,1990 Patiala 8 including 6 children killed in a bomb explosion, 30 injured.July 15,1990 Taredan 8 members of a family gunned down in village Taredan under(Mamdot) Mamdot police station.July 30,1990 Bidar 35 killed, 30 injured in a bomb explosion in a local cinema hall.(Karnatka)Aug. 8,1990 Ludhiana 9 gunned down in indiscriminate firing.Nov. 5,1990 Batala 9 Hindu passengers shot dead in a Batala-Jalandhar bus.Nov. 9,1990 Batala 5 Hindus shot dead after alighting them from vehicles on Batala-Pathankot highway.Nov. 12,1990 Kothe Lal Singh 8 Hindus killed by KCF (Zafarwal) gang.(Bathinda)Nov. 15,1990 Ferozepur 7 Hindu passengers of a bus going from Ferozepur to Dharamkot shot dead.Nov. 17,1990 Killianwali 11 RSS workers killed in indiscriminate firing on morning assembly.(Dabwali)Nov. 20,1990 Amritsar 12 killed in a massacreNov. 22,1990 Chandigarh 16 Hindus killed after alighting from two buses near Parhol.Nov. 24,1990 Patti 5 Hindus shot deadNov. 25,1990 Jalandhar 15 shot dead in indiscriminate firing.Nov. 26,1990 Ludhiana 5 members of a hindu family shot dead on Daba road.Dec. 13,1991 Sedeke 5 Hindu passengers shot dead in Sedeke village near Guru HarsahaiJan. 8,1991 Gill 14 Hindu kidnapped from different places, shot dead at village Gill near Ludhiana.March 22,1991 Chandigarh 30 employees of Punjab Tractors Ltd. Foundry, all Hindus, shot dead.April, 9,1991 Sewewala 18 activists shot dead 22 injured, indiscriminate firing on front gethering.June 15,1991 Baddowal, 75 train passengers shot dead by KLF.Kila RaipurNov. 9,1991 Sirsa 16 persons, all Hindus, shot deadNov. 9,1991 Faridkot 7 family members shot dead in a village in Faridkot district.Nov. 17,1991 Rudarpur(U.P.) 12 persons shot dead.Dec. 19,1991 Ludhiana 12 killed in a bomb blast in Bharat Nagar ChowkDec. 26,1991 Sohian 32 rail passengers shot dead at Sohian railway crossing in Ludhiana district.Jan. 8, 1992 Kharar 21 industrial workers shot to death.Kup KalanJan. 15, 1992 Dhanaula 5 electricity employees gunned down at grid station.Jan. 17, 1992 Samana 7 persons killed in a bomb blastMarch 10-20 Ghabdan 75 persons gunned down in 4 separate incidents.Ludhiana,Ahmedgarh Factory workers from outside state at Ghabadan, general people in indiscriminate shoot outtwice in Ludhiana and once in M'andi Ahmedgarh.June 25,1992 Kila Raipur 9 Hindus gunned downJuly 13,1992 Bassian 7 Hindus, gunned down.July 14,1992 Bathinda 7 Hindus, 5 Sweepers and 2 migrant workers gunned down in sporadic shoot out.May 2,1992 Kadarvaad 7 members of a family among 8 killed in village Kadarvaad, police district Majitha.May 3,1992 Sadarpur 10 persons killed, 3 injured in village Sadar pur, district Karnal" I will kill 5000 hindus in one hour if my jeep is not released"
UKL = This was the type of propaganda statement that the person saying it feared would be attributed to him. Make no mistake any so-called Sikh making such a statement would be dealt with summarily on the spot for such an outrageous statement. Any person purporting to be Sikh but threatening the life of a single innocent (let alone 5,000) is condemned by the Khalsa Panth. Sikhi is the antithesis of terrorism and is unequivocal in condemantion of terrorism. Amritdhari GurSikhs who do not eat meat cannot get away with such statements without being called out as patits and non-Sikhs. I understand that the supposed quote you mention refers to the false media lies attributed to the speaker. For example, if you ue the quote in your post it does not mean that you Hindustani are threatening to kill 5,000 Hindu's in January 2014.
UKL = Hindustani, if you oppose terrorism of the kind inflicted by the Government of India on lakhs of innocent Sikhs (as well as hundreds of innocent Hindu's) then join the Sikh Panth. Sikhi unequivocally opposes terrorism, condemns it and will continue to fight against it. So I urge you to not let GOI propaganda discolour your perception of what Sikhi stands for. There is not a single Sikh worldwide that can openly call for the blood of a single innocent to be shed. You should understand that and join the Sikh Panth to fight against the true terrorists like Jinnah, Sajjan Kumar, Indira Gandhi and the like in order to achieve a World of peace and development.
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Jaspreet Bir'ay isn't the Mool Mantar the classic definition of an absolute statement?
Who did Dhan Dhan Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj exactly pray to (if not Akaal Purakh)?
Why do some Sikhs need to copy the Hindu's and Christians with their false beliefs regarding God appearing in human form as they claim with Jesus, Ram, Krishna etc?
Imho Dhan Dhan Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj makes an absolute statement that God is beyond human births as a baby that cannot feed itself and human bodies that die.
However, if you choose to believe differently then that does not lessen my respect for you as a fellow brother within a Panth where all of us (myself included) need to focus more on our fundamental Unity rather than our smaller ideological differences.
ੴ ਸਤਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਕਰਤਾ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਨਿਰਭਉ ਨਿਰਵੈਰੁ ਅਕਾਲ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਅਜੂਨੀ ਸੈਭੰ ਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥॥ ਜਪੁ ॥
ਆਦਿ ਸਚੁ ਜੁਗਾਦਿ ਸਚੁ ॥ ਹੈ ਭੀ ਸਚੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਹੋਸੀ ਭੀ ਸਚੁ ॥1॥Transliteration:
Ik oa(n)kaar sath naam karathaa purakh nirabho niravair akaal moorath ajoonee saibha(n) gur prasaadh ॥
aadh sach jugaadh sach ॥ hai bhee sach naanak hosee bhee sach ॥1॥
One Universal Creator God. The Name Is Truth. Creative Being Personified. No Fear. No Hatred. Image Of The Undying, Beyond Birth, Self-Existent. By Guru's Grace
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Some attend the annual event as they simply want to REMEMBER and pay their respects to the Shaheeds.
We PROTEST during the MARCH as it is not only about REMEMBRANCE as we have not had JUSTICE. The way we hope to get the message across this year will be more creative, professional etc.
If you have not had JUSTICE then what we need to get across to non-Sikhs and the mainstream media on the 30th anniversary is we want FREEDOM (this will be the main theme).
FREEDOM can and will have many meanings:
FREEDOM for Sikh political prisoners
FREEDOM from the death penalty/hanging
FREEDOM of religion - Article 25
FREEDOM for greater rights - Punjab's water
etc.
AND of course FREEDOM from India
UKL = Khalsa Ji i agree with you on what you say above. However, i think that the word RIGHTS encompasses all the issues you list above and the RIGHT to self-determination is a birthright of all human beings but particularly the Sikh Panth that has suffered and continues to suffer systematic Genocide at the hands of our opponents in Delhi. I 100% strongly believe that UPLIFTMENT of our Panth should be the main goal of what we are trying to achieve with Hyde Park June 2014. I was going to write to Sikh Council on exactly this point but given that you are from the FSO what better person to ask if there is the possiblity of Sarbat Khalsa discussing this issue and weighing it up as to the pro's and con's of the alternating terms suggested for June 2014.
J = Our nishana is still azaad halemi khalsa raj KHALISTAN. I cannot ever deny that while there is even the slightest semblance of breath in my body.
UKL = Agreed bir'ay. After the events of 1984 and thereafter no Sikh should ever feel guilty of desiring self-rule (freedom from GOI terrorism). However, I believe there is tactical merit in us downplaying the obvious at the moment.
J = veere, regarding the state of affairs 29 years on from the bloody assault on our Quom in 1984. We do not live under delusions of grandeur. India's genocide of 300,000+ Sikhs (mostly young, unmarried, teenage to 20's males) in the early 1990's that physically brutally liquidated our freedom movement, which was on the brink of success ( Takht - as per declaration of Shaheed Baba Gurbachan Singh Ji Manochahal - Takht ya Taboot ), by killing off the current and future youth of our quom, was incredibly painful.
UKL = 100% agreed
J = We won the battles but lost the war.
UKL = Agreed that our central government adversaries won. And that is why we need to rethink our route map to Victory.
J = We didn't resort to matching the enemy's dirty tactics.
UKL = 100% true bir'ay. Whilst the Khalsa Panth did not shed the blood of any innocent deliberately, Indira Gandhi's Black Cats GOI Terrorist Forces headed by Muhammad Azhar Alam were wholly responsible for the murder of innocent non-Sikh civilians.
J = The hurt continues with this ongoing silent genocide via a seemingly endless inflow of drugs, alcohol, and the quom killing itself through its daughters.
UKL = Agreed bir'ay and I strongly believe we need to address drugs, alcohol, infanticide, illiteracy, poverty, and biraderi cancer as pre-cursors to achieving freedom.
J = But there is a distinct difference between losing and admitting defeat i.e. giving up. We have never admitted defeat, and we are not about to give up anytime soon.
UKL = 100% agreed bir'ay. The Sikh Panth can never fundamentally be defeated. The Sikh Panth will never accept permanent defeat and will never surrender to Oppressors. However, we should not hesitate from tactical retreats if they bring us closer to overall long term victory (which I strongly believe dressing up June 2014 as a Remembrance and Rights Peace March will do - especially if the attendance figures can arguably be tripled as I strongly believe resulting in greater progress for upliftment of the Panth).
J =Now, as for the future; We may well lose many of the battles to come. But of one thing, Guru-Paatshah has made me absolutely nischat sure; WE WILL WIN THE WAR.
UKL = Bilcul bir'ay the Qaum which holds true to Vaheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Vaheguru Ji Ki Fateh knows that ik na ik dhin RAJ KAREGA KHALSA!
J = Apparently I was there as a baby in 1984 but obviously I don't remember anything of it. I remember very fondly the rallies that took place in later years when I was a young child. Starting at Hyde Park, finishing on the Embankment. There was then a gap of about 10 years - never heard about any rally then. No coaches left from the Gurdwara.
UKL = There were always protest marches annually bir'ay but at the height of GOI Black Cats activity some committee's were genuinely confused as to what they should do.
J = Then 2004 happened. First advertisements of a panthic event ever heard on panjaab radio, akaash radio, amrit bani radio stations (there were no Sikh TV channels back then). Huge hype. Coaches went packed from the Gurdwara.
UKL = The only one positive strand where I see we have made progress in the last 29 years is in terms of greater Sikh media presence.
J = I remember meeting an uncle in Hyde Park before the start of the march and asking him why doesn't the remembrance and freedom really happen every year? He was like "it does. This year is just the first time anyone's turned up!!!"
UKL = Tv stations (of which I believe we should have one merged channel btw), radio stations, social networking and internet sites have been a massive help in boosting numbers in recent years.
J = 2004 was massive. 2014 will be even bigger.
UKL = Agreed. But we need to seriously harness June 2014 for the active upliftment of the Panth in practical terms relating to drugs, infanticide, alcohol, biraderi, illiteracy and poverty rather than thinking that slogans alone will do all the work for us. Cold hard money raised coupled with seva ploughed into combatting the modern day forms of Genocide are crucial if we are not to waste the opportunity that June 2014 represents. Basically the game now is about more funds for books rather than bullets.
J = I never understood the meaning of the marches when I was a child, but as a 20-year old I understood very well. Slowly, my whole view of India and the terrorist Indian Flag totally turned on its head. No longer was it a tool to wind up pakistanis. Now I saw it, minus Indian propaganda, for what it was; a symbol of Oppression. The zaalim taranga. I would never support tyrannical Indian rule ever again. I would only support the Khalsa. RAJ KARAYGA KHALSA!
UKL = I hear you bir'ay. Without a doubt our loyalty should only ever be to Nishan Sahib and Sarbat Da Bhala rather than a corrupt terrorist centralised state that oppresses the innocent. The Khalsa Panth is nirvair with love for all within the beautiful spectrum of humanity so desiring freedom from oppression is something that no Sikh should ever have to apologise for. However, I believe we have much LESS to lose (and more to gain) by substituting the word RIGHTS for Freedom and terming the Rally as a "Peace" March.
1. We get more attendance ... i think we can hit 200,000 if we market it as a Remembrance+Rights Peace March.
2. Greater attendance results in greater local and international coverage.
3. We increase Unity internally by virtue of the fact only self-haters could possibly oppose or not participate in a Remembrance and Rights Peace March.
4. By using wording which would make the Rally palatable to GOI's friends such as USA, UK etc then Cameron and the majority of UK politicians that seek Sikh votes in 2015 would have no political option but to endorse the wave towards achieving Justice.
5. Instead of getting Sikh organisations labelled as terrorist outfits we can actively lobby for Overseas Developement Funds to go towards uplifting poor Sikhs.
6. Certain Biraderi Golak committees do not send any representation annually. Via the substitution of one word I think it would be hard for them to stop their own Sangat participating. This is vital if we are going to attempt Gurdwara mergers in the UK as a pre-cursor to ensuring that the Panth only has one saanjha Gurdwara per locality.
http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?/topic/66391-mergers-so-that-only-1-gurdwara-per-local-area/
7. In the context that we are only 7 years away from the 2021 Indian Census and the RSS aim of Sikhs being a minority in the whole of East Punjab by then (not just Doaba where we are currently a minority) I strongly believe that history will judge us very harshly if we don't have the awareness to realise that combatting drugs, biraderi, illiteracy, poverty, infanticide, alcohol + health indicators (cancer/fertility) as vital foundation blocks without which no house of shelter free from GOI terrorism can stand.
8. Those such as Namdhari's, Nirankari's, Radha Soami's, Dera Ballan, Hindu Mandirs and non-Sikhs etc would have no excuse not to engage and support the mainstream Sikh community in our quest for justice and equality for all. Via greater engagement with the said communities we can build bridges as increased parchaar is the best way to turn our erstwhile enemies into future loyal members of the Panth rather than the Congress sycophants many of the leaders of the same currently are.
9. If we can triple attendance out of nowhere in June 2014 on the basis of a Remembrance and "Rights" (Peace) March ... that would give us scope to start claiming it as an "anti-Genocide" march from 2015 onwards which could bring even greater numbers of mainstream UK population participation and provide even greater scope for parchaar and fundraising for uplilftment of our Panth's poorest and most suffering sections and thereafter towards Sarbat Da Bhala.
10. We have to definitely recognise that USA, Russia, UK and France all want a united India as a counterweight to China and export market. China itself illegally annexed the independent nation of Tibet and recognises that Sikhs as a 1.8% minority within India are not worth assisting if a 1.3 billion population export market is jeopardised as a result. Delhi itself realises it cannot relinquish terrorist control of East Punjab so long as Pakistan remains a united nation in its current form. Therefore, given that our Qaum is considerably worse off than we were in 1984 on all the main indices we need to take a seriously different approach rather than simply chanting slogans (which I believe will give the Indian media the chance to paint us as terrorists and actively make things worse on the ground for our brothers and sisters in Punjab). The biggest proof I can give in support of why we urgently need to take a different approach and focus on June 2014 being all about combatting drugs, illiteracy, female infantcide and biraderi is that in this millenium all those issues have got worse year after year. So whilst we think that increased attendance at rallies for Khalistan this millenium have moved us forward, the reality on the ground in Punjab is that every indicator is getting worse. The fact that we Sikhs are a minority in Doaba (where a plebiscite for independence would be roundly voted down) should be a wake up call that we need to get the basics right ... and that we shouldn't run before we can walk in the context that in the years after 1984 there was almost 100% unity within the Qaum and the Kharku Lehar had full support prior to Black Cats and Beanta killing so many innocents. Now we see bakhre bakhre Gurdware. GOI in 1984 was 100 times stronger than the Panth in terms of economic and military resources. GOI is immeasurably stronger today compared to what it was back 30 years. We are immeasurably weaker in our spiritual adherence to Sikhi nowadays and hence talk of Khalistan and freedom is more of a distraction taking our eyes off the ball of the sad reality in front of us that needs to be addressed first. In simple terms, once we have 99% literacy, 99% not partaking in drugs or alcohol, 100% saanjhe Gurdware and Qaum, an equal male/female ratio and poverty eliminated ... self-rule will be a formality as each and every man, woman and child would be willing to give their life to oppose (GOI) terrorism. Obviously, I don't have all the answers bir'ay but this is a subject that Sarbat Khalsa, Sikh Council UK and FSO all need to discuss and decide how we use June 2014 to push the Panth forward short term (and thereby faster towards ultimate freedom from tyranny).
But Jashb bir'ay it's good that for once I don't actually 100% agree with you (as usual) as only by discussing idea's that we can push forwardly unitedly thereafter!
VJKK VJKF
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Some attend the annual event as they simply want to REMEMBER and pay their respects to the Shaheeds.
We PROTEST during the MARCH as it is not only about REMEMBRANCE as we have not had JUSTICE. The way we hope to get the message across this year will be more creative, professional etc.
If you have not had JUSTICE then what we need to get across to non-Sikhs and the mainstream media on the 30th anniversary is we want FREEDOM (this will be the main theme).
FREEDOM can and will have many meanings:
FREEDOM for Sikh political prisoners
FREEDOM from the death penalty/hanging
FREEDOM of religion - Article 25
FREEDOM for greater rights - Punjab's water
etc.
AND of course FREEDOM from India
UKL = Agreed Khalsa Ji. There is no point of contention between us on the above. However, the word "RIGHTS" can equally cover everything upon which Freedom is sought and I strongly believe that the simple replacement of one word could potentially triple the attendance figures in June 2014. I was going to write to Sikh Council about this however, since you are from the FSO yourself it was better and easier to put my humble suggestion to the source. I would be very grateful if you can respond with more clarification on why and if there is possibility that Sarbat Khalsa/FSO/Sikh Council can at least discuss how we frame June 2014 to get the most exposure locally and internationally as well as the most ongoing benefits for the upliftment of the Panth.
J = Our nishana is still azaad halemi khalsa raj KHALISTAN. I cannot ever deny that while there is even the slightest semblance of breath in my body.
UKL = Agreed bir'ay. What happened in 1984 made it crystal clear that the Sikh Panth cannot be held to ransome by terrorist central governments. We cannot have our affairs determined by those that inflicted and continue to inflict Genocide upon us. However, in much the same way that a kharku would keep an AK-47 hidden under a shawl I strongly believe that we need to be pragmatic about our "declared" objectives. The last 29 years should teach us something.
J = veere, regarding the state of affairs 29 years on from the bloody assault on our Quom in 1984.
J = We do not live under delusions of grandeur. India's genocide of 300,000+ Sikhs (mostly young, unmarried, teenage to 20's males) in the early 1990's that physically brutally liquidated our freedom movement, which was on the brink of success ( Takht - as per declaration of Shaheed Baba Gurbachan Singh Ji Manochahal - Takht ya Taboot ), by killing off the current and future youth of our quom, was incredibly painful. We won the battles but lost the war. We didn't resort to matching the enemy's dirty tactics.
UKL = 100% agreed bir'ay. All terrorism was done by Indira's Black Cats led by Muhammad Alam Khan as the Khalsa Panth protects the innocent and is nirvair.
J = The hurt continues with this ongoing silent genocide via a seemingly endless inflow of drugs, alcohol, and the quom killing itself through its daughters.
UKL = Agreed bir'ay and I believe that these should be three of our primary short term objectives before we even broadcast bigger political objectives openly.
J = But there is a distinct difference between losing and admitting defeat i.e. giving up. We have never admitted defeat, and we are not about to give up anytime soon
UKL = Bilcul bir'ay. The Sikh Panth can NEVER be defeated. History proves that given the multiple repeat Genocides we have endured. Raj Karega Khalsa. Full stop. However, i strongly believe that in the current situation we need to re-group, get the foundations in place of no drugs, no alcohol, no female infanticde, 100% literacy, eradication of poverty and apartheid mentality inherited from Hindu's and Muslims ... and then proceed with the inevitable long term consequences of 1984.
J = Now, as for the future;
J = We may well lose many of the battles to come. But of one thing, Guru-Paatshah has made me absolutely nischat sure;
J = WE WILL WIN THE WAR.
UKL = Absolutely bir'ay ... Vaheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Vaheguru Ji Ki Fateh ... says its all.
UKL = However, 29 years after 1984 ... Delhi's position is far, far stronger ... and our position is commensurately weaker (with the exception of a stronger media voice in the recent last few years). I don't think there are any realistic pretensions of an armed struggle re-igniting any time soon whilst the Prime Minister of India, The Head of the Indian Army and the Chief UN representatives of India are all currently "visible" Kesdhari Sikhs. Therefore, why not let us prioritise the defeat of alcohol, drugs, infanticide, biraderi, illiteracy and poverty for the short term at least. There is also an argument that if we channel the resources currently employed into advocation of Khalistan into seva and parchar for poor and oppressed people in India, Asia and Africa there may come a day whereby the whole of India (if not the whole world) could be governed justly via Khalsa Raj (which is the only form of rule that can deliver justice to all with Sarbat Da Bhala as its guiding motto).
J = Apparently I was there as a baby in 1984 but obviously I don't remember anything of it.
J = I remember very fondly the rallies that took place in later years when I was a young child. Starting at Hyde Park, finishing on the Embankment.
UKL = Bir'ay even though I was young in 1984 and the years thereafter, there was total unity in the Qaum. Everyone knew what had been done to us and that the Sikh Panth cannot live under terrorist rule. I too used to chant naaray for Khalistan. However, in this millenium, I have become more circumspect about declaring such slogans openly because I strongly believe we have to recognise the changing ground reality in India, globally and politically. How the West has left the Tamils out to dry is telling. How the Tibetan people have been annexed, repressed and crushed by Chinese oppression whilst the West cares more about commercial deals with China is also telling. So long as Pakistan remains a united nation in its current form I think we need to recognise that Delhi is unlikely to easily allow freedom for its own oppressed minorities.
J = There was then a gap of about 10 years - never heard about any rally then. No coaches left from the Gurdwara.
UK = I think the Black Cats violence unleashed by Congress was a big part of certain committees not knowing where to stand.
J = Then 2004 happened. First advertisements of a panthic event ever heard on panjaab radio, akaash radio, amrit bani radio stations (there were no Sikh TV channels back then). Huge hype. Coaches went packed from the Gurdwara.
UK = The media freedom overseas is one of the bright points of where we stand today compared to 30 years ago.
J = I remember meeting an uncle in Hyde Park before the start of the march and asking him why doesn't the remembrance and freedom really happen every year? He was like "it does. This year is just the first time anyone's turned up!!!"
UK = Exactly, marches did happen every single year.
J = 2004 was massive. 2014 will be even bigger.
UKL = Agreed
J = I never understood the meaning of the marches when I was a child, but as a 20-year old I understood very well. Slowly, my whole view of India and the terrorist Indian Flag totally turned on its head. No longer was it a tool to wind up pakistanis. Now I saw it, minus Indian propaganda, for what it was; a symbol of Oppression. The zaalim taranga. I would never support tyrannical Indian rule ever again. I would only support the Khalsa. RAJ KARAYGA KHALSA!
UKL = 100% agree with you on the above. However, my point to you is that if we both agree on the birthright of all human beings to self-determination (particularly a nation which has at least 30million population strength) then how do we go about best utilising June 2014 Hyde Park rally to the benefit of the Panth. Firstly, i think we need greater attendance and a broader spectrum of attendance to garner the most local, international and Indian media coverage. By terming June 2014 as a Remembrance + Rights Peace March I think we can potentially get three times the attendance (as all those Sikhs uncomfortable with the notion of self-rule and freedom from central government terrorism would have no excuse on why not to attend). Furthermore, certain biraderi golak committees would likely participate in order to further the cause of Unity.Multi-faith groups including UK Hindu's would have pressure on them to show support for an end to the ongoing injustices against Sikhs as well as a recognition that we were the 100% innocent victims of Delhi's terrorism.
UKL = The other thing is this bir'ay is that on all indices (except self-controlled Sikh media) we are worse off today than we were in 1983. The one that personally angers me the most is the biaderi golak committee wale. With Unity it makes winning a war difficult if not impossible. So rather than trying to fly to Mars straight away i think we should short term strive to reach the Moon again in terms of killing off infanticide, illiteracy, poverty, biraderi and drugs/alcohol. I believe the whole emphasis of June 2014 must be on raising the maximum funds possible so that no village in Punjab is left behind. Naaray in isolation get us nowhere. We have to do co-ordinated action and raise money to make a difference. Because if we are raising slogans in 2014 (without a broad spectrum of attendance) and then come the 2021 we Sikhs are less than 50% of the East Punjab population I think history will judge us harshly. So I think we need to build bridges and unity and to that end participation from groups affiliated to Namdhari's, Nirankari Radha Soami's, Dera Ballan and even Hindu Mandirs would be no bad thing if the attendance numbers are thereby boosted, bridges are built and the end result is that more funds are raised to combat the ongoing forms of the silent Genocide against us (in which yet again wrecthed so-called Sikhs play an active part). In short bir'ay I am saying that we have everything to gain by being politically palatable for Cameron and Obama and Indian media in terming the rally as a Remembrance+Rights Peace March. By so doing it won't stop the right to "self-determination".
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Point 1: What do you say about the 80s when certain famous sants and his acolytes were saying things like "dhotiwala" "topiwala" and "cow worshippers?" and a host of other derogatory and inflammatory terms?
Point 2: Dayanand conducted his greatest attacks against hindus and hinduism itself.
BTW, I highly doubt the major civilizations of the world - muslim, jewish, christian, hindu and chinese are going to be perturbed by some 18 year old sitting in his moms basement singing khalistani songs. The major civilizations of the world decide the direction of this planet everybody else just goes along including yourself. Your house of cards can be dropped by a single phone call.
UKL = Amandeep how can factually correct descriptions be termed offensive in the context of if someone wears a topi they are thus a topiwala (as is the case with proud Parsi surnames), dhoti was and is a beloved dress form for many corrupt politicians so what exactly is wrong about describing such wretched politicians as dhotiwale? Similarly, if corrupt politicians worship the cow as their Mother (whilst organising the Genocide of Sikhs at the same time) how can it possibly be offensive to accurately describe cow worshippers as Gau Mata pujanwale?
UKL = Agreed that Dayanand despised traditional Hinduism and that theorertically Arya Samaji's do not accept themselves as Hindu
UKL = However, coming to your statement about the so-called major civilisations. I say to you outright that the Muslim, Christians and Hindu civilisations are three of the the biggest cancers this World has ever seen! So what if the Christians, Muslims and Hindu's are the biggest populations ... as those populations were built off the back of the murder, slavery, rape, expolitation and discrimination. Granted that the Arabs and Christians are the most evil so-called civilisations of all but the so-called Hindu civilisation which sanctified discrimination in much the same way the Bible and Quran via Manu Smriti is something which has nothing to be proud of in its millenia of oppressing darker skinned adivasi inhabitants of India.
UKL = Babar the Mughal dog that ruled India and launched the Mughal dynasty in India. But you know who we Sikhs respect more? Bhai Lalo Ji. A simple honest God fearing man is worth more in our eyes than any royal scum. Guru Sahib teaches us that slaves and the poorest of the poor and the oppressed are worthy of more respect than the biggest billionaires or royalty. We don't give a damn about what civilisation or samaj deems to be the highest. Look into the background of the bravest of the brave whom we Sikhs respect ... Bhai Jiwan Singh Ji ... Bhai Sangat Singh Ji ... our Panj Pyaaray from south India, from Gujarat, from Orissa etc, etc and you will see that pure Sikhi turns on it head old society/civilisation lies about what is high or noble.
The world may be a global village with the biggest most powerful homes (s) being owned by the big boys. Everybody else join up or get trampled. Makes me wonder sometimes especially watching the arrest of this indian diplomat - within days the americans had arrested an alleged khalistani in california to make it up to the indians. It shows me that smaller kaums have no real say or at least limited say. Their interests go down the drain or are used as bargaining chips in the wider game played by the big boys.
Anycase...
UKL = I agree with you that long term it looks like that India or what remains of India will probably be forced to join a one world government in which Hindi is slowly phased out much the same way that Punjabi has been eradicated in Pakistan and Haryana, Himachal etc but is something to be so happy about given that it will be likely corporate players pulling the strings of such a one world government. I agree with that smaller communities which do not have a critical mass of demographic strength are likely to be trampled on in human rights term as we have seen with the Genocide of the Sikhs launched by Indira Gandhi and furthered by her minions. However, no matter what any bigger power may do to the Sikh Qaum we won't be defeated, we won't bow down and we will keep fighting until there is total equality for all mankind globally (Sarbat Da Bhala).
The true warriors of the 21st century are the political scientists, nobel peace prize winners, economic reformers, mathematicians etc..anything?
UKL = I agree with you on the above.
And kudos to bhai gurbaksh singh he used an old tactic to free the sikh prisoners and in turn has gained the respect of millions, including myself. Did it with his brain and body not AK-47s..a true warrior of the 21st century kind.
UKL = I personally don't believe in the satyagraha tactics when dealing with evil counterparties but like you I am totally humbled by Bhai Gurbaksh Singh Khalsa Ji and his devotion, sincerity and level of self-sacrifice. However, you should be aware that Sikhi continually stresses upon peaceful means with forceful self-defence only a final option when innocent human lives are being murdered by Oppressors such as the Mughals, the British Empire or indeed the Nehru-Gandhi Empire.
UKL = Let me ask you a question Amandeep ... what do you see in Sikhi (not Sikhs) that is wrong and to the detriment of humankind and global justice, welfare, health and education? If there is nothing wrong that you can see with the philosophy of the Guru's, then why not ignore all the pathetic lies hype from the so-called big players, big houses, big civilisations who have murdered, enslaved and raped hundreds of millions of innocents and join the Sikh Panth (in contrast) to fight for the betterment of all? No one is asking you to keep your hair if that's what you are frightened of! But we need every man and woman on the planet that cares about global justice to join the Sikh Panth so that what Sant Puran Singh Ji achieved with Pingalwara can be replicated on a global scale to create a world free from hunger, poverty, disease, oppression and discrimination ... ie "Begumpura".
UKL = Mr AJ111 i put this to you as well, as I often see you putting a contrarian view to Sikhs.
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Bole So Nihaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaal
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All great points veere but not going to happen until we kick out the Badal clan - Dukhbir's father-in-law is Satyajit Majithia - the man that controls the alcohol supply for much of north india!
Found this about the Badal and Majithia clans;
Very true Paji regarding Majithia connection. We need to put the drug pushers and suppliers and alcohol distributors out of business in Punjab via direct physical force. If vigilante type action by local jatha's can be put into action against those that profit from our Qaum's misery and against abortion clinics our enemies will soon realise it's not commercially viable for them to continue.
Related to your point Paji, one worry I have is the 2014 Indian General Election:
We all know that Badals are de facto an enemy of the Panth. But they are a lesser enemy than Congress. Whilst I would ordinarily advocate throwing in our weight with the Aam Aadmi Party (given their recent success in Delhi) there is a case that if Badal Dal are part of the ruling coalition with Modi in 2014 ... they "may" just be able to wipe out a significant percentage of Punjab state's debts, which could prove highly beneficial to the state both short term and long term.
So whilst I agree with you Paji that Badals (and Majithia) are a plague upon Punjab I think care needs to be taken by Sikhs in Punjab in 2014 that the anti-Congress vote is not split as too much anti-Badal rhetoric in May 2014 could assist Congress. There may be a case for Sikhs to support Badal Dal when electing MP's (if they can show some Panthic credentials) to send to the centre ... but supporting clean politicians on an Aam Aadmi party ticket at local state and MLA level. I don't have the answers myself but Panthic scholars need to weigh up where our interests lie politically and how best we can extract the best deal for the Panth overall. Congress and Badal Dal both trying to get Jatts included in the Backward Caste list is yet another sign that both parties are enemies of the Panth in real terms. Worrying that Sant Samaj haven't counselled Badal that caste reservation in a Sikh majority state is tantamount to trying to kill Sikhi. But I don't suppose Sant Samaj really care as they have done nothing to prevent bakhre bakhre Gurdware and haven't initiated any practical steps against matrimonial level apartheid whereas when it comes to matters of discussing homosexuality or calendars or who wrote SG or BN they always find time for intellectual conferences.
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With all due respect brother - I strongly disagree.
Such a move would rightly be seen by the many as the organisers turning their back on the freedom movement. It would quite likely alienate the 50,000+ that already attend the freedom rally ever year, including myself.
We openly want freedom from a false, murderous, genocidal oppressive state - we have nothing to hide, and nothing to gain from denying that.
Numbers are going up every year already. There was talk of 80,000+ attending last year. Even if renaming the rally pulled in 1m+, I still wouldn't support such a move. The end does not justify the means
UKL = I always respect your points big time Jashb Paji and I hear you on why you feel as you do. However, I genuinely believe we can realistically get 200,000 Sikhs+others there in June 2014 if we don't declare openly what 1984 consequentially initiated and merits. No people can be forced to lived subject to a terrorist central givernment against their free will. Furthermore, though we can openly declare naaray here in the UK they don't do our brothers and sisters back home any favours. I genuinely believe that. There's a reason why SS Mann's party garner hardly any votes. I strongly believe the open naaray are divisive internally within the Panth and also alienate potential non-Sikh allies. I strongly believe that our bureaucratic enemies are strengthened in their anti-Sikh agenda's by each slogan for Khalistan in the Diaspora. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to work out that a terrorist central government forfeited the moral right to decide or determine our affairs in 1984 and with the Genocide that followed in subsequent years. However, I think it's politically naive for us to make proclamations for freedom when we have not tackled or laid the foundation blocks of eradicating drugs, alcohol, biraderi apartheid, illiteracy, poverty and female infanticide. The defeat of the Tamil Tigers recently shows the USA, UK, France, Russia (four of the security council members) have no appetite to support legitimate movements for self-rule. China itself illegally annexed the independent nation of Tibet and realises that India as a behemoth of 1.3 billion will be hard to dismember given that the West needs India united as a counterweight to China and will brazenly support Delhi in oppressing minorities and peoples that ask for equal rights.
UKL = Bir'ay when the British had their Indian Empire there were no more than a 100,000 goray that controlled the subcontinent of hundreds of millions of "Indians". The minute we have 99% literacy, no internal socio-economic or tribal discrimination, 99% of the Panth drugs and alcohol free and an economic climate where no Sikh children are going hungry at night, then no power on this planet can rule us unjustly when we legtimately desire Khalsa Raj. That's the bottom line. If everyone is willing to die and we have no traitors like 1847 or 1984 then no power can rule us. China and India and USA combined cannot stop us as a people in Malwa and Majha where we are a majority (so long as we have Ekta and the foundations in place).
UKL = I think Paji the question is whether the perception of the organisers (superficially) turning their backs on the legitimate desire for freedom is more important than getting our Panth's youth off drugs+alcohol, getting our Qaum 100% literate, ending biraderi apartheid, ending poverty and female infanticide? As we need to focus on right now as the foundation blocks as a pre-cursor to potentially to achieving an end to rule by terrorists from Dehli.
UKL = Paji as a 4year old I was present with in the marches against Congress Terrorism and Genocide as far back as 1984. Now if we look at where we are 29 years of naaray later look at where we are on all indices. Bakhre Bakhre Gurdware, naujawaan nashe karde te sharaab har saal loka ne zyaadha peeni, dhiyan nu loki marde, te gareebah kole paisa no hove aj kal dudh kreedhan nu ... how can we possibly get freedom from well organised bureaucratic terrorists in the short term that rule+operate a terrorist central state with 100 times our military+economic resources? Imho clearly it's a long term thing and we should focus on combatting the silent ongoing Genocide of our Qaum (rather than naaray which in practical terms have achieved nothing positive for our Qaum in this millenium).
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But cutting hair is indeed katal of kes, isn't it? Bhai Gurbaksh Singh Khalsa ji has also been emphasizing on the same continuously.
Absolutely Paji but we have to work out how best to appeal to, engage with and utilise the the sehajdhari 95% majority for Panthic upliftment. The fact that all these sehajdhari singers supported Bhai Sahib needs to be utilised by engaging with the said artists and for starters the said artists agreeing not to promote alcohol, not to promote caste, not to promote activities in direct contradiction of Gurmat rather than trying to expect too much too soon from them. Ask yourself this, how many percent of Punjabi Brahmins do you realistically think will come to Sikhi if we insist upon kes for them as a pre-cursor to joining the Panth? Let's grow the Panth's overall demographic strength first and work in a united direction first and we will automatically get to a greater number of Amritdhari GurSikhs consequentially.
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Khalsa Ji it may be worth your while to do a Census postcode (or ward) search to give you an indication of the demographic strength of Sikhs in a particular locality where you and your family might consider living in and other areas (such as Chalvey) worth avoiding.
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Will post Press Releases from the SikhCouncil UK that will show an open meeting took place at Guru Nanak Gurdwara, Smethwick on Sunday 20 October.
It was unanimously decided that day there should only be ONE London event in June AND it should be organised by the Federation of Sikh Organisations (FSO).
Some individulas although stating in the presence of the Guru Granth Sahib they would accept this Panthic decision have stuck to their original plans to go ahead with organising their own event on 1 June - this is what is being advertised in Des Pardes.
This should not be seen as two events one organised by the youth and the other by the elders. Many/most of the different youth groups have indicated they will respect the Panthic decision at Guru Nanak Gurdwara, Smethwick on Sunday 20 October and support the ONE event being organised by the FSO.
UKL = Jagtar Singh Khalsa Ji respect as always for providing the information to Sangat.
UKL = In anticipation of the 30th anniversary one point I wanted to humbly suggest to yourself is that perhaps we can increase the attendance in June 2014 and gain greater media coverage both locally and internationally by terming it the Rememberance+Rights Peace March as opposed to Rememberance+Freedom Rally as at a stroke all those who feel uncomfortable articulating Khalistan (in a climate where USA and UK governments actively support Delhi) would thus have no reason not to participate in the human rights demand of Justice for Sikhs. By terming it a Rememberance+Rights Peace March we might even be able to drag in non-Sikh Punjabi's to bolster the number of attendeees and thereby use the occasion for increased parchaar to non-Sikhs.
UKL = Last but not least, I strongly believe that the whole emphasis of what we need to achieve in June 2014 is to raise the maximum funds and awareness and village level volunteer jatha's for our respective ancestral Pinds to tackle drugs, alcohol, female infanticide, biraderi apartheid and Panthic illiteracy, poverty and cancer rates. If we can get biraderi controlled golak lootere to publicly pledge for the merger of biraderi apartheid Gurdware then June 2014 is the time and the target to achieve it ... particularly bearing in mind that in the 2021 census we are staring down the barrel of Sikhs potentially being less than 50% of the population in Punjab if we don't unite immediately. If we can get the foundations in place, freedom will inevitably follow. But naaray alone have never achieved nothing as seen by all in the last 29years.
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What I had posted was for those power hungry dirt bags who are ruling India. The common Indian irrespective of whatever religion he/she professes is (a.) a victim of poverty thanks to corruption done by the government, (b.) a victim of false information thanks to the biased media (news, TV), (c.) a victim of concocted propaganda coming from various communal political parties.
Bottom line, every ordinary common Indian is an all-round victim of suppression and oppression. What is the solution? Only and only Khalsa Raj which will come by eliminating all these aaqis and then khuaar hue sab milenge.
UKL = You're absolutely correct in what you say above Paji. The thing we need to bear in mind is that 30 years ago there were 500 million more so-called Hindu's than Sikhs. Now there are 1,000 million more so-called Hindu's than there are Sikhs. As people have been whole scale conned into believing that their identity is so-called Hindu. So we need to be very specific about who our enemies are = Central Government, Dehli bureaucrats, RSS etc. We simply cannot label our opponents "Hindu" (100 crore people) or even Brahmin (5 crores) as you know better than most that every time we blanket label our opponents as Hindu or Brahmin we alienate lakhs of people who are spiritually ripe for entry into the Sikh Panth. For example, I know of a few Amritdhari Gursikhs from a similar background to your own and we need to encourage more good people like yourself by educating more sehajdhari's that they are not Hindu. So if 10 lakh Punjabi Brahmins attend Gurdware we need to correctly classify them as Sikhs in Punjab (albeit sehajdhari) in order to remove the innocent so-called Hindu's from the political base of our RSS-influenced opponents. Also loaded terms like "Kes Kattal" do us no favours in gaining greater population strength for the Sikh Panth and I say that from the perspective of an ex-sehajdhari.
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The reason? Nobody (outsiders) supports us. Nobody knows about our history; our own ppl doesn't know.
Libya; France took keen interest and thrust NATO into it. Syria; turkey supporting anti-Syrian government movement. These fighters or activist are maybe small in numbers but they got support from known and unknown outsiders because of their own self interests.
We are being neglected by all despite of our high input and great help to outsiders whether it's mutiny of 1857, boer war, ww1,2 and so on.
We are on our own!
UKL = Paji you are absolutely right that we are on our own and that USA and UK are wholly in support of the oppression of Sikhs, so long as India can remain a united counterweight to China. The West doesn't give a damn about Tibetan independence (as Chinese destruction in Tibet has gone unhindered for commercial reasons) to any meaningful degree and neither do they care about us.
However, if we lay the groundworks for an Arab Spring ... via increasing education in particularly our villages, increasing parchaar to both ethnic Punjabi's and non-Punjabi newcomers, the stamping out of drugs and alcohol sales in Punjab and an end to biraderi apartheid and female infanticide ... then without zero support from external parties, we will be ready to democratically and peacefully end all corrupt rule over us. If the public are not aware then that is the perfect cover for corruption and misrule to succeed. And educated populace is the number one weapon to defeat our enemies objectives in wiping out our Qaum.
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Keep it up Bir'ay. Very impressive and big respect for the effort and dedication you have put in.
Though you don't accept donations (respect to you again on that) links to organisations that uplift weaker members of our Panth could be an idea.
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The Truth Behind The Golden Temple Massacre
in WHAT'S HAPPENING?
Posted
Mehtab Singh Paji, the painful history of 1984 occurred and there's nothing we can do to turn back time.
However, 30 years on what we youth in the West can certainly do is set ourselves aims and objectives as members of the Sikh Panth to hit the following targets for Panthic upliftment by combatting drugs, alcohol, biraderi, infanticide, illiteracy, cancer and poverty.
UK Sangat to raise £30 million plus by June 2014
Canadian Sangat to C$30 million plus by June 2014
American Sangat to raise $30 million plus by June 2014
Other Diaspora Countries Sangat should target $10million plus by June 2014
India-based Sangat could arguably raise R300crores
And with an eventual target of national Panj Pyaaray representatives from each country handing over their respective nation Sangat's cheques to the SGPC for firewalled projects for Panthic Upliftment in combatting drugs, alcohol, infanticide, biraderi, illiteracy, cancer and poverty and every penny of the funds presented to SGPC in June 2014 being watched over by auditors to confirm that Badal Dal cannot access, use or waste a single penny of the funds raised by Sangat.
Rather than just remembering the past, we need to actively attack the current silent Genocide occuring via infanticide, drugs, cancer, illiteracy, biraderi and poverty.
I would like to hear every forum members idea's on how we make this happen. I will write to Sikh Council UK and I hope all Sangat can spread this agenda like a virus!
Mehtab Singh Ji can you pin this please Bhai Sahib?