13Mirch

Thank u everyone I will post my write up on Krishna in the coming few months. Please do ardass for me to be blessed with more such seva. If u have any criticism please message it to me or post on the thread. N30S1NGH thank u very much. I will surely store that.

I have seen the video, and I do breifly remember him mentioning it though I am not sure what Sant Ji means.

Many Hindus argue that because Guru Gobind Singh Ji wrote choubis avtar he must have worshipped Hindu gods such as Ram etc. How do we disapprove this claim? Especially with proof from Choubis avtar? I did an article on Guru Sahib and Ram Chandar but a brother on this forum pointed out I have inferiro sources. *inferior.

I am sorry if my sources proved inferior can anyone however put me in the right regarding Guru Sahib's views on Ram Chandar?

I did this write up of sorts on why Ram Chandar, is not the Guru Sahibaan's Ram: RAM CHANDAR. WHO IS HE? AND HOW DO SIKHS VIEW HIM? Over time Right-Wing Hindu politicians have come up with the argument that the name of Ram is mentioned more than any other name in Gurbani. No other Sikh source supports this 'hyped-up' claim, nor have these right-wing extremists provided any proof except books published by them or the teachings of self-styled theologians. This has obviously lead to a heated debate as to who Ram is according to Gurbani. Guru Sahiban have u sed the name of Ram in Gurbani to mean Waheguru. Out of the many shabads which prove this claim we chose the following from Gurbani, to prove our point: ਕਬੀਰ ਰਾਮ ਕਹਨ ਮਹਿ ਭੇਦੁ ਹੈ ਤਾ ਮਹਿ ਏਕੁ ਬਿਚਾਰੁ ॥ Kabīr rām kahan mėh bẖeḏ hai ṯā mėh ek bicẖār. Kabeer, it does make a difference, how you chant the Lord's Name, 'Raam'. This is something to consider. ਸੋਈ ਰਾਮੁ ਸਭੈ ਕਹਹਿ ਸੋਈ ਕਉਤਕਹਾਰ ॥੧੯੦॥ So▫ī rām sabẖai kahėh so▫ī ka▫uṯakhār. ||190|| Everyone uses the same word for the son of Dasrath and the Wondrous Lord. ||190|| ਕਬੀਰ ਰਾਮੈ ਰਾਮ ਕਹੁ ਕਹਿਬੇ ਮਾਹਿ ਬਿਬੇਕ ॥ Kabīr rāmai rām kaho kahibe māhi bibek. Kabeer, use the word 'Raam', only to speak of the All-pervading Lord. You must make that distinction. ਏਕੁ ਅਨੇਕਹਿ ਮਿਲਿ ਗਇਆ ਏਕ ਸਮਾਨਾ ਏਕ ॥੧੯੧॥ Ėk anekėh mil ga▫i▫ā ek samānā ek. ||191|| One 'Raam' is pervading everywhere, while the other is contained only in himself. ||191|| Bhagat Kabir here has made a distinction for himself as to who the real Ram is. One Ram, the son of Dasrath and incarnation of Vishnu is contained only within himself. The other Ram, Bhagat Kabir's Ram is all pervading and everywhere. He is the one who Guru Sahiban termed as Akal Purakh, Waheguru Hari etc. Guru Nanak Dev Ji states: ਨਾਨਕ ਨਿਰਭਉ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰੁ ਹੋਰਿ ਕੇਤੇ ਰਾਮ ਰਵਾਲ ॥ ਕੇਤੀਆ ਕੰਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਕਹਾਣੀਆ ਕੇਤੇ ਬੇਦ ਬੀਚਾਰ ॥ "The Formless alone, Nanak, is without fear, many are Ramas as the dust of His Feet, many Krishnas. Many are their stories and many are the Vedas." (SGGS - Ang 464). There are many Ramas who are the dust of his feet. The 'his' in this question again is Akal Purakh. Guru Gobind Singh Ji is often stated as having worshipped Ram, due to him writing Ram Avtar. It is stated that Guru Sahib deviated from the path of the following Gurus by writing Ram avtar but lets see what the Guru has to say about Ram, in Ram avtar: "Ever since I have grasped Your feet, I have not thought of anybody else. I do not accept the doctrines enunciated by various faiths, believing in Ram, Rahim, Puranas and Qoran. The Simritis, Shastras and Vedas mention different concepts but I do not subscribe to any of them. O God, the Sword-bearer (of justice)! With Your Grace, all that has been uttered by me has been done under Your command. Dohra! I have shunned every door and have entered Your door Please hold my arm and keep my honour, Gobind is ever Your slave." (Raam Avtar, Guru Gobind Singh). Ram Chander was born of a woman. His mother's name was Kaushalya. Puranic sources relate that Dasrath, Ram's father, had no son but three wives. He performed a yajna to have his wife beget sons. Kaushalya gave birth to Ram. Ram cannot be God if we look at Gurmat because he was born of a woman: ਸੋ ਮੁਖੁ ਜਲਉ ਜਿਤੁ ਕਹਹਿ ਠਾਕੁਰੁ ਜੋਨੀ ॥੩॥ ਜਨਮਿ ਨ ਮਰੈ ਨ ਆਵੈ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਕਾ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਰਹਿਓ ਸਮਾਇ ॥੪॥੧॥ "Let that mouth be burnt, which says that our Lord and Master is subject to birth. ||3|| He is not born, and He does not die; He does not come and go in reincarnation. The God of Nanak is pervading and permeating everywhere. ||4||1||" (SGGS - Ang 1136). Many other aspects of Ram are rejected outright by Gurbani. Ram is often accepted as being an incarnation of Vishnu. The seventh to be exact. Gurbani says: ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰੁ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਸਦਾ ਸਲਾਮਤਿ ਕਹਿ ਨ ਸਕੈ ਕੋਊ ਤੂ ਕਦ ਕਾ ॥ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਸਿਰੇ ਤੈ ਅਗਨਤ ਤਿਨ ਕਉ ਮੋਹੁ ਭਯਾ ਮਨ ਮਦ ਕਾ ॥ "O Formless Lord God, You are eternally intact; no one can say how You came into being. You created countless Brahmas and Vishnus; their minds were intoxicated with emotional attachment." (Ang 1403). Countless Vishnus who themselves are attached to creation but not the creator. Whats the point of worshipping one when there are countless more? Guru Gobind Singh Ji clearly states: ਮੈ ਨ ਗਨੇਸ਼ਹਿ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮ ਮਨਾਊਂ ॥ ਕਿਸ਼ਨ ਬਿਸ਼ਨ ਕਬਹੂੰ ਨਹ ਧਿਆਊਂ ॥ ਕਾਨ ਸੁਨੇ ਪਹਿਚਾਨ ਨ ਤਿਨ ਸੋਂ ॥ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਗੀ ਮੋਰੀ ਪਗ ਇਨ ਸੋਂ ॥੪੩੪॥ “I do not seek blessings or hail Ganesh before I start any task. (In old times, often Ganesh would be hailed before starting any task). Nor do I worship Krishan or Vishnu etc. I have heard of them but I do not recognise any of them. I am engrossed in the loving devotion of my Lord (Waheguru) alone.” (DG – P. 733, Krishan Avtar. How could the Gurus have worshipped Rama when they did not believe in his source Vishnu? Our Gurus were the one and same jot from beginning till end they would not have contradicted their actions in the predecessor's form. How hard is all this for Hindus to understand? They can understand flying apes, ten-headed demi-gods but not a soul being the same yet with different bodies. A Sikh is required by the Guru to place his faith only in the Guru: :ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਮੇਰਾ ਸਦਾ ਸਦਾ ਨਾ ਆਵੈ ਨਾ ਜਾਇ ॥ Saṯgur merā saḏā saḏā nā āvai na jā▫e. My True Guru, forever and ever, does not come and go. ਓਹੁ ਅਬਿਨਾਸੀ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਹੈ ਸਭ ਮਹਿ ਰਹਿਆ ਸਮਾਇ ॥੧੩॥ Oh abẖināsī purakẖ hai sabẖ mėh rahi▫ā samā▫e. ||13|| He is the Imperishable Creator Lord; He is permeating and pervading among all. ||13|| What else does Gurbani say about the devte? A:ਰਾਮੁ ਗਇਓ ਰਾਵਨੁ ਗਇਓ ਜਾ ਕਉ ਬਹੁ ਪਰਵਾਰੁ ॥ रामु गइओ रावनु गइओ जा कउ बहु परवारु ॥ Rām ga▫i▫o rāvan ga▫i▫o jā ka▫o baho parvār. Raam Chand passed away, as did Raawan, even though he had lots of relatives. and ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਮਹੇਸਰ ਬਿਸਨ ਸਚੀਪਿਤ ਅੰਤ ਫਸੇ ਜਮ ਫਾਸਿ ਪਰੈਂਗੇ ॥ ब्रहम महेसर बिसन सचीपित अंत फसे जम फासि परैंगे ॥ Brahma, Shiva, Vishnu and Consort of Sachi (Indra) would ultimately fall in the noose of death.(Sri Dasam Granth Sahib) Even Ram Chand passed away, yet God never takes birth nor dies according to Gurmat; so Ram cannot be God. ਏਕ ਸਿਵ ਭਏ ਏਕ ਗਏ ਏਕ ਫੇਰ ਭਏ ਰਾਮਚੰਦ੍ਰ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਕੇ ਅਵਤਾਰ ਭੀ ਅਨੇਕ ਹੈਂ ॥ Ek Siv Bhae Ek Gae Ek Pher Bhae, Raamchanndra Krishan Ke Avtaar Bhee Anek Hain|| एक सिव भए एक गए एक फेर भए रामचंद्र क्रिसन के अवतार भी अनेक हैं ॥ There was one Shiva, who passed away and another one came into being; there are many incarnations of Ramchandra and Krishna. 66810 ਦਸਮ ਗਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਪੰਨਾ ੪੮ ਪੰ. The Guru's Ram on the other hand is Waheguru Akal Purakh as proved by Bhagat Kabir Ji's Shabad. Of course many Hindus argue that thats only Bhagat Kabir Ji's thinking. But we have to remember that the Gurus, Bhagats, Bhatts, Gursikhs in reality all had one Guru and that was God, Waheguru. It is him they tell man to worship not any son of Dasrath who couldn't protect even his own wife! Now let us look at some facts about Ram Chandar, is he really an embodiment of Gurmat? 1.) Bali, the king of Kishkindha was at war with Raksash named Mayavi. Bali pursued Mayavi deep into a cave in the earth. Before going he asked his brother, Sugriva to wait outside the cave. Sugriva however had other plans. He returned to Kishkindha and declared himself King. As prime minister he appointed Hanuman, the simian demi-God. In this grab of power he derived Angad, the son of Bali of kingship. When Bali came out of the cave, after killing his nemesis he did not find Sugriva there. After coming to know of what had transpired he raised an army and drove Sugriva out of Kishkindha. The two brothers were now openly at war and had become enemies. Knowing fully well the deception of Sugriva and his greed Ram Chandar (the so-called king of Dharma) still decided to help him against forth righteous Bali. In one of the battles fought between the two brothers, Ram 'Ji' hid behind a tree and through deception gave orders to kill Bali. After Bali's death he appointed Sugriva as the king of Kishkindha. The kingship belonged to the next of kin Angad, yet Angad was forgotten in all this. Sugriva had already proven his colours once so could not have been appointed as the boy's supervisor, yet what did Ram 'Ji' do though? He helped in the demise of an innocent king and that too through deception. It was due to this incident that Sugriva offered to help Ram 'Ji' in attacking Ravan. Many anti-Panthic forces have the cheek to compare this incident with Guru Gobind Singh Ji's helping of Bahadur Shah. One fact straight away destroys this comparision, and that fact is that Bahadur Shah was the rightful heir to Aurangzeb's throne. Secondly he had himself gone to Guru Gobind Singh Ji as a supplicant. Guru Sahib helped him, irregardless of his (Bahadur Shah's father's misdeeds). Nor did Guru Ji fear the mughals, who at this stage had given up pursuing him and after Aurangzeb's fanatic policies were beginning to crumble. The very fact that Bahadur Shah had to ask Guru Ji for assistance in helping crush rebellion against him by various members of his families shows the weakness of the mughals. Furthermore the mughal records at the time can prove this. 2.) According to the 'Balmik Sarg' (6-115) after the deaths of Ravan, and his son Inderjeet; Hanuman brought Seeta to Ram 'Ji'. Great king Ram 'Ji' however couldn't care less at this stage. taaM tu paarshve sthitaaM prahvaaM raamaH saMprekShye maithiliim | hR^idayaantargataM bhaavaM vyaahartumupachakrame || 6-115-1 1. samprekShya= seeing; taam maithiliim= that Seetha; sthitaam= who stood; paarshve= at his vicinity; prahvaam= bowing low; raamaH= Rama; upachakrame= began; vyaahartum= to tell; bhaavam= his feeling; hR^idayaantargatam= hidden in his heart (as follows). Seeing that Seetha, who stood at his vicinity bowing low, Rama began to tell his feeling hidden in his heart (as follows): eShaasi nirjitaa bhadre shatruM jitvaa raNaajire | pauruShaadyadanuShTheyaM mayaitadupapaaditam || 6-115-2 2. bhadre= my dear lady!; eShaa= you; asi= are; nirjitaa= won back (by me); jitvaa= after conquering; shatrum= the enemy; raNaajire= in the battle-field; tat yat= that which; anuShTheyam= is to be done; pauruShaat= through human effort; upapaaditam= has been accomplished; mayaa= by me. "You are won back by me, after conquering the enemy in the battle-field, my dear lady! That which is to be done through human effort, has been accomplished by me." gato.asmyantamamarShasya dharShaNaa saMpramaarjitaa | avamaanashcha shatrashcha yugapannihatau mayaa || 6-115-3 3. gataH asmi= I have come to; antam= the end; amarShasya= of my indignation; dharShaNaa= and my outrage; sampramaarjitaa= has been completely requited; shatrushcha= and the enemy; anumaanashcha= as well as the contempt; nihatau= have been wiped out; yugavat= all at once; mayaa= by me. "I have come to the end of my indignation and my outrage has been completely requited as also the contempt against the enemy have been wiped out, all at once, by me." adya me pauruShaM dR^iShTamadya me saphalaH shramaH | adya tiirNapratijJNo.ahaM prabhavaamyadya chaatmanaH || 6-115-4 4. adya= now; me= my; pauruSham= manly strength; dR^iShTam= has been seen (by all); adya= today; me= my; shramaH= toil; saphalaH= has borne fruit; adya= now; aham= I; tiirNa pratijJNaH= have fulfilled my promise; adya= today; prabhavaami= I am the master; aatmanaH= of myself. "Now, my manly strength has been seen by all. Today, my toil has borne fruit. Now, I have fulfilled my promise. Today, I am the master of myself." yaa tvaM virahitaa niitaa chalachittena rakShasaa | daivasaMpaadito doSho maanuSheNa mayaa jitaH || 6-115-5 5. yaa tvam= you, who; virahitaa= became deserted from me; niitaa= was taken away; chalachittena rakShasaa= by a ficle-minded demon; doShaH= the wrong; daivasampaaditaH= brought about by the destiny jitaH= has been corrected; mayaa= by me; maanuSheNa= a human being. "The wrong done to you, when you were deserted from me, in that you were taken away by a fickle-minded demon, which was ordained by the destiny, has been corrected by me as a human being." saMpraaptamavamaanaM yastejasaa na pramaarjati | kastasya pauruSheNaartho mahataapyalpachetasaH || 6-115-6 6. kaH arthaH= what is the use; pauruSheNa= of a prowess; tasya mahataapi alpachetasH= of a weak-minded man, even if it is mighty; yaH na pramaarjati= who does not wipe out; sampraaptam avamaanam= the insult fallen to his lot; tejasaa= by means of his energy? "What is the use of a prowess, however great, of that weak-minded man who does not wipe out, by his energy, the insult fallen to his lot?" laN^ghunaM samudrasya laN^kaayaashchaapi mardanam | saphalaM tasya cha shlaaghyamadya karma hanuumataH || 6-115-7 7. shlaaghya= the praise-worthy; karma= act; tasya hanuumataH= of that Hanuma; laN^ghanam= (namely) the crossing; samudrasya= of the ocean; mardanam cha= and the destroying; laN^kaayaaH= of Lanka; the destroying; laNKaayaaH= of Lanka; adya= today; saphalam= has borne fruit. "The praise-worthy act of Hanuma in the form of crossing of the ocean and the destroying of Lanka, has borne fruit today." yuddhe vikramatashchaiva hitaM mantrayatastathaa | sugriivasya sasainyasya saphalo.adya parishramaH || 6-115-8 8. parishramaH= the endeavour; sugriivasya= of Sugreeva; sa sainyashcha= together with his army; vikramataH= for his attack; yuddhe= in the battle; tathaa= and; mantrayataH= his counsel; hitam= of a good advice; saphalah= is fruitful; adya= today. "The endeavour of Sugreeva, who exhibited his prowess on the battle-field with his army and tendered a good advice, is fruitful today." vibhiiSaNasya cha tathaa saphalo.adya parishramaH | viguNaM bhraataraM tvaktvaa yo maaM svayamupasthitaH || 6-115-9 9. tathaa= furthermore; parishramashcha= the exertion; vibhiiShaNashcha= of Vibhishana; yaH= who; tyaktvaa= after abandoning; bhraataram= his brother; viguNam= who was void of good qualities; svayam= andpersonall; upasthitaH= reached; maam= me; saphalaH= is fruitful; adya= today. "Furthermore, the exertion of Vibhishana, who after deserting his brother who was void of good qualities, sought my presence, is fruitful today. ityevaM vadataH shrutvaa siitaa raamasya tadvachaH | mR^igiivotphullanayanaa babhuuvaashrupariplutaa || 6-115-10 10. shrutvaa= hearing; tat= those; vachaH= words; vadataH= spoken; tiyevam= thus; raamasya= by Rama; siitaa= Seetha; utphullanayanaa= her eyes wide open; mR^igiiva= like those of a female-deer; babhuuva was; ashrupariplutaa= filled with tears. Hearing those words spoken thus by Rama, Seetha with her eyes wide open like those of a female-deer, was bathed in tears. pashyatastaaM tu raamasya samiipe hR^idayapriyaam | janavaadabhayaadraajJNo babhuuva hR^idayaM dvidhaa || 6-115-11 11. hR^idayam= the heart; raajJNaH raamasya= of King Rama; pashyataH= as he saw; taam= Seetha (hR^idaya priyaam= the beloved of his heart); samiipe= near him; babhuuva dvidha= was torn; janavaada bhayaat= for fear of the talk of the public. The heart of King Rama, as he saw Seetha, (the beloved of his heart) near him, was torn for fear of public scandal. siitaamutpalapatraakShiiM niilakuJNchitamuurdhajaam | avadadvai varaarohaaM madhye vaanararakShasaam || 6-115-12 12. madhye= in the midst; vaanara raakShasaam= of monkeys and demons; avadat vai= Rama spoke; siitaam= to Seetha; utpala patraakShiim= whose eyes resembled the petals of a lotus; niila kuN^jitu muurdhajaam= hair, dark in hue as also curled; vanaarohaam= and hips, excellent. In the midst of monkeys and demons, Rama spoke (as follows) to Seetha, whose eyes resembled the petals of a lotus, who wore dark curly hair and was endowed with fine hips. yatkartavyaM manuShyeNa dharSaNaaM pratimaarjataa | tatkR^itaM raavaNaM hatvaa mayedaM maanakaaN^kkShiNaa || 6-115-13 13. mayaa= by me; maanakaaN^kShiNaa= wanting for an honour; tat idam= this particular act; yat= which; kartavyam= ought to be done; manuShyeNa= by a man; kR^itam= has been done; hatvaa= in killing; raavaNam= Ravana; pratimaarjitaa= and thus wiping away; dharShaNaam= the insult. "I, wanting for an honour, have done this particular act, which ought to be done by a man, in killing Ravana and thus wiping away the insult meted out to me." nirjitaa jiivalokasya tapasaa bhaavitaatmanaa | agastyena duraadharShaa muninaa dakShiNeva dik || 6-115-14 14. nirjitaa= (you have been) won by me; bhaavitaatmanaa= whose mind stands purified; tapasaa= by asceticism; dakShiNaa dik iva= as the southern quarter; duraadharShaa= which was difficult to be approached; jiivalokasya= by the world of mortals; (was conquered by) agastyena= by the Sage Agastya. "You have been won by me, whose mind stands purified by asceticism as the southern quarter, which was difficult to be approached by the world of mortals, was conquered by the Sage Agastya." viditashchaastu bhadraM te yo.ayaM raNaparishramaH | sutiirNaH suhR^idaaM viiryaanna tvadarthaM mayaa kR^itaH || 6-115-15 rakShataa tu mayaa vR^ittamapavaadam cha sarvataH | prakhyaatasyaatmavaMshasya nyaN^gaM cha parimaarjataa || 6-115-16 15-16. viditaH astu= let it be known (to you); ayam yuddhaparishramaH= that this endeavour in the shape of war; sutiirNaH= which has been successfully carried through; viiryaat= due to the strength; suhR^idaam= of my friends; na kR^itaH= was not undertakne; tvadartham= for your sake; te bhadram astu= let there be happiness to you!; mayaa= (this was done) by me; rakShataa= in order to keep up; vR^itam= my good conduct; parimaarjitaa= and wipe off; apavaadam cha= the evil-speaking; sarvataH= from all sides; nyaNgam= as well as the insinuation; prakhyaatasya aatmavamshasya= on my own illustrious dynasty. "Let it be known to you that this endeavor in the shape of war, which has been successful carried through, due to the strength of my friends was not undertaken for your sake. Let there be prosperity to you! This was done by me in order to keep up my good conduct and to wipe off the evil-speaking from all sides as well as the insinuation on my own illustrious dynasty." praaptachaaritrasaMdeha mama pratimukhe sthitaa | diipo netraaturasyeva pratikuulaasi me dR^iDham || 6-115-17 17. praapta chaaritra sandehaa= (You) with a suspicion arisen on your character; sthitaa= standing; pratimukhe= in front of; mama= me; dR^iDham pratikuulaa api= are extremely disagreeable; me= to me; diipaH iva= even as a light; netraaturasya= to one, who is suffering from a poor eye-sight. "You, with a suspicion arisen on your character, standing in front of me, are extremely disagreeable to me, even as a light to one, who is suffering from a poor eye-sight." tadgachchha tvaanujaane.adya yatheShTaM janakaatmaje | etaa dasha disho bhadre kaaryamasti na me tvayaa || 6-115-18 18. janakaatmaje= O Seetha!; tat= that is why; anujaane= I am permitting; tvaa= you; adya= now; gachchha= go; yatheShTam= wherever you like; tetaaH dasha dishaH= to any of these ten directions; naasti= there is no; kaaryam= work to be done; me= to me; tvayaa= by you; bhadre= my dear lady! "O Seetha! That is why, I am permitting you now. Go wherever you like. All these ten directions are open to you, my dear lady! There is no work to be done to me, by you." kaH pumaaMstu kule jaatah striyaM paragR^ihoShitaam | tejasvii punaraadadyaat suhR^illekhyena chetasaa || 6-115-19 19. kaH tejasvii pumaan= which noble man; jaataH= born; kule= in an illustrious race; aadadyaat= will take; punaH= back; striyam= a woman; paragR^ihoShitaam= who lived in another's abode; suhR^illekhyena chetasaa= with an eager mind? "Which noble man, born in an illustrious race, will take back a woman who lived in another's abode, with an eager mind?" raavaNaaN^kaparikliShTaaM dR^iShTaaM duShTena chakShuShaa | kathaM tvaaM punaraadadyaaM kulaM vyapadishan mahat || 6-115-20 20. vyapadishan= while mentioning about; mahat kulam= my great lineage; katham= how; aadadyaam= can I accept; punaH= again; tvaam= you; raavaNaaN^ka parikliShTaan= who were harassed in Ravana's lap while being borne away by him) dR^iShTaam= and who were seen (by him) duShTena chakShuShaa= with evil looks? "While mentioning greatly about my lineage, how can I accept again, you who were harassed in Ravana's lap (while being borne away by him) and who were seen (by him) with evil looks?" tadarthaM nirjitaa me tvaM yashaH pratyaahR^itaM mayaa | naasth me tvayyabhiShvaN^go yatheShTaM gamyataamitaH || 6-115-21 21. tvam nirjitaa= you were won; me= by me; tadartham= for that end (viz. retrieval of my lost honour); yashaH= the honour; pratyaahR^itam= has been restored; mayaa= by me; me= for me; na asti= there is no; abhiShvaN^gaH= intense attachment; tvayi= in you; gamyataam= you may go; yatheShTam= wherever you like; itaH= from here. "You were won by me with that end in view (viz. the retrieval of my lost honour). The honour has been restored by me. For me, there is no intense attachment in you. You may go wherever you like from here." Seeta's reply was one of sorrow and supplication. She begged Ram 'Ji' to let her prove her innocence. Hence an agni pariksha, or test of fire was decided upon. Agni,^ the God of fire appeared and himself told Ram 'Ji' Seeta was innocent. Agni commanded Ram 'Ji' to take her back. But more suffering was still in store for Seeta. Ram 'Ji' back in Ayodhya became king, yet he did not treat Seeta like his wife or queen and tongues started to wage. Especially when Seeta became pregnant. The court jester reported this to Ram 'Ji' and Ram 'Ji' ordered brother Lakshman to take Seeta to the Ganges and leave her there alone and friendless. Lakshman completed the task left up to him and a heavily pregnant woman was left to the mercy of nature. Yet there is one even above the Hindu Gods* who smiled upon her, and soon his devotee Balmik found her and took her in. In time Seeta gave birth to two boys, Luv and Khush who became deadly archers like their fickle-minded father. Even Ram 'Ji' had heard of Balmik and invited him to a Yajna. Alongwith Balmik went the two boys. At Ayodhya they sang songs about their mother and Ram 'Ji' asked to their background. They told him they were the sons of a woman who was banished to the forest by an unworthy and weak minded husband, on hearing this Ram ‘Ji’ realised that these boys were talking about none other than him. After revealing to the duo who he really was he asked Seeta to come back to Ayodhya in an assembly of saints and prove her innocence. Seeta presented herself and gave testimony saying, she had never thought about any other man than Ram. Even in her dreams. But Seeta was not ready to forgive Ram Ji herself. She said that let the earth swallow her, and it is said that the earth opened and she fell in the fissure. Clearly she had had enough of a fickle-minded and suspicious husband. According to Gurmat a woman is pure and equal to man in all respects.** Hence her opinion should be asked on all matters. The Gurus did not definitely worship such a figure who was so stone-hearted that he left his wife at the mercy of the elements. Ram ‘Ji’ would definitely have taken the seven vows of marriage (according to Hindu tradition) in the presence of fire which bound him to fidelity and life-long companionship. Yet he broke this vow, another sign of non-Gurmat as a Gurmukh is one who does not break his word.*** 3.) The description of Ram ‘Ji’s’ lifestyle is one totally rejected by Gurmat. According to Balmik Ji (Read Uttra Khand) Ram 'Ji'‘used to watch Apasaras (beautiful women) dancing and enjoyed liquor of the finest quality. Ram ‘Ji’s’ drinking bouts lasted well into the night and many beautiful women were brought for him from China and Manchuria. It is for this lavish lifestyle that Balmik Ji has rightly labelled Ram ‘Ji’ as a “prince among ladies’ men.” He was even a consumer of meat. All these actions do not tally with any figure of dharma (religion) or righteousness and is very far from the course of Gurmat. 4.) Over the course of time, it has been said many times that Ram Chander was a just man/demi-god. Let us look at the truth of this statement. A Brahman’s son died a premature death and a Shudra named Shambhuk was blamed. Shambhuk’s only sin was that he undertook religious rituals. The Brahmin conveyed his news and distress to Ram ‘Ji’ and asked for justice. According to Gurmat all the four varnas or castes have the right to seek God and perform religious rituals, ਬ੝ਰਹਮਨ ਬੈਸ ਸੂਦ ਅਰ੝ ਖ੝ਯ੝ਯਤ੝ਰੀ ਡੋਮ ਚੰਡਾਰ ਮਲੇਛ ਮਨ ਸੋਇ ॥ ਹੋਇ ਪ੝ਨੀਤ ਭਗਵੰਤ ਭਜਨ ਤੇ ਆਪ੝ ਤਾਰਿ ਤਾਰੇ ਕ੝ਲ ਦੋਇ ॥੧॥ Barahman bais sūḝ ar kẖa­yṯarī dom cẖandĝr malėcẖẖ man so­ė. Ho­ė punīṯ bẖagvanṯ bẖajan ṯė ĝp ṯĝr ṯĝrė kul ḝo­ė. ॥1॥ Whether he is a Brahmin, a Vaishya, a Soodra, or a Kh'shaatriya; whether he is a poet, an outcaste, or a filthy-minded person, he becomes pure, by meditating on the Lord God. He saves himself, and the families of both his parents. ॥1॥ (SGGS p858). According to Ram ‘Ji’ howver, this was not the case, he immediately reached the spot where Shambhuk was doing religious practices and without warning cut of his head. A great deed on the part of a God. And as if to justify this deed, many Brahmins say that the prematurely expired son came back to life after this deed of Ram ‘Ji’. Furthermore to give the episode more religious significance it is said that the other Gods hailed this act of Ram ‘Ji’. 5.) Ravan needed no bridge to come to the Indian mainland from Lanka, but Ram Ji needed a bridge to go to him. Furthermore such a vast bridge was completed in only 5 days? Who was more powerful? The bridgeless or the one who needed the bridge? All this in the face of Ram Ji having many flying chariots. It is mentioned in Uttra Khand: “Countless chariots were flying in the sky. Their shadows on earth looked like the multitudes of locusts.” All these chariots belonged to Ram Ji yet he still needed a bridge. 6.) Ravan having more than one head. We believe this is a symbolisation of Ravan’s strength and/or bhagti which has been wrongly misinterpreted. In all this let us conclude as to the imperfections of Ram ‘Ji’ in the terms of Gurmat: 1.) The slaying of innocent Bali. 2.) The mistreatment of Seeta. 3.) The slaying of an innocent Shudra. 4.) Ram ‘Ji’s’ birth. To sum up Ram ‘Ji’ was neither the perfect king or husband. Neither was he virtuous or loving towards all his subjects. He was bound by the mentality of stratification and lead an anti-Gurmat life. Guru-Sahibaan definitely do not mean this Ram when they say: ਬਿਲਾਵਲ੝ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥ ਭੂਲੇ ਮਾਰਗ੝ ਜਿਨਹਿ ਬਤਾਇਆ ॥ ਝਸਾ ਗ੝ਰ੝ ਵਡਭਾਗੀ ਪਾਇਆ ॥੧॥ ਸਿਮਰਿ ਮਨਾ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮ੝ ਚਿਤਾਰੇ ॥ ਬਸਿ ਰਹੇ ਹਿਰਦੈ ਗ੝ਰ ਚਰਨ ਪਿਆਰੇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ ਕਾਮਿ ਕ੝ਰੋਧਿ ਲੋਭਿ ਮੋਹਿ ਮਨ੝ ਲੀਨਾ ॥ ਬੰਧਨ ਕਾਟਿ ਮ੝ਕਤਿ ਗ੝ਰਿ ਕੀਨਾ ॥੨॥ ਦ੝ਖ ਸ੝ਖ ਕਰਤ ਜਨਮਿ ਫ੝ਨਿ ਮੂਆ ॥ ਚਰਨ ਕਮਲ ਗ੝ਰਿ ਆਸ੝ਰਮ੝ ਦੀਆ ॥੩॥ ਅਗਨਿ ਸਾਗਰ ਬੂਡਤ ਸੰਸਾਰਾ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਬਾਹ ਪਕਰਿ ਸਤਿਗ੝ਰਿ ਨਿਸਤਾਰਾ ॥੪॥੩॥੮॥ Bilaaval, Fifth Mehla: He places the one who strays back on the Path; such a Guru is found by great good fortune. ||1|| Meditate, contemplate the Name of the Lord, O mind. The Beloved Feet of the Guru abide within my heart. ||1||Pause|| The mind is engrossed in sexual desire, anger, greed and emotional attachment. Breaking my bonds, the Guru has liberated me. ||2|| Experiencing pain and pleasure, one is born, only to die again. The Lotus Feet of the Guru bring peace and shelter. ||3|| The world is drowning in the ocean of fire. O Nanak, holding me by the arm, the True Guru has saved me. ||4||3||8|| bilaaval mehalaa 5 || bhoolae maarag jinehi bathaaeiaa || aisaa gur vaddabhaagee paaeiaa ||1|| simar manaa raam naam chithaarae || bas rehae hiradhai gur charan piaarae ||1|| rehaao || kaam krodhh lobh mohi man leenaa || ba(n)dhhan kaatt mukath gur keenaa ||2|| dhukh sukh karath janam fun mooaa || charan kamal gur aasram dheeaa ||3|| agan saagar booddath sa(n)saaraa || naanak baah pakar sathigur nisathaaraa ||4||3||8|| Notes: ^ It seems Agni is more superior than Ram ‘Ji.’ * God. According to Gurbani Bhagat Balmik was a worshipper of Akal Purakh. In terms of Gurmat the Ramayan or tale of Ram ‘Ji’ is only a record by him not a scripture. ਬਾਲਮੀਕੁ ਸੁਪਚਾਰੋ ਤਰਿਓ ਬਧਿਕ ਤਰੇ ਬਿਚਾਰੇ ॥ Baalameek Supachaaro Thariou Badhhik Tharae Bichaarae || बालमीकु सुपचारो तरिओ बधिक तरे बिचारे ॥ Baalmeek the outcaste was saved, and the poor hunter was saved as well. 42735 ਮਾਰੂ (ਮ: ੫) ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੯੯੯ ਪੰ. ੫ Raag Maaroo Guru Arjan Dev (Maru Mahala 5, pg. 999). ** From woman, man is born; within woman, man is conceived; to woman he is engaged and married. Woman becomes his friend; through woman, the future generations come. When his woman dies, he seeks another woman; to woman he is bound. So why call her bad? From her, kings are born. From woman, woman is born; without woman, there would be no one at all. Guru Nanak, Raag Aasaa Mehal 1, Page 473. Bhai Gurdas pays further tributes to a woman in his vaar: “A woman is the favourite in her parental home loved dearly by her father and mother. In the home of her in-laws, she is the pillar of the family, the guarantee of its good fortune. Sharing in spiritual wisdom and enlightenment and with the noble qualities, with which (the Creator) has endowed her, a woman, the other half of man, escorts him to the door of liberation." (V.16). ***According to various rehatnamas Gurmukh is one who never goes back on his word. Notes: Many Hindus say that Ram is not a God but someone who embodies perfection. A virtuous and noble figure. However Ram’s legend does not hold true to this claim. Sikhs are forbidden from drinking and looking at a women (immorally) other than their own rightful spouse. Ram ‘Ji’ however was the opposite of this. It is said in the Balmik Ramayan, Sarg 125, Shalok 44: “He offered him (Hanuman) villages, 100 cows and 16 beautiful virgins.” Clearly a man who gave women away in this manner would not have stopped at the thought of treating them as sexual objects. In the Rehatnames it has been written: ‘Par nari ki sej, bhul supne hun na jayo' (never enjoy, even in dream, the bed of a woman other than your own wife) (A supplementary ordinance was issued that any one who did not observe any of the four directives, must be re- baptized, pay a fine, and promise not to offend any more; or he must be excommunicated from the Khalsa). Concerning intoxicants: ਸ੝ਆਦ ਲ੝ਭਤ ਇੰਦ੝ਰੀ ਰਸ ਪ੝ਰੇਰਿਓ ਮਦ ਰਸ ਲੈਤ ਬਿਕਾਰਿਓ ਰੇ ॥ ਕਰਮ ਭਾਗ ਸੰਤਨ ਸੰਗਾਨੇ ਕਾਸਟ ਲੋਹ ਉਧਾਰਿਓ ਰੇ ॥੩॥ Su▫ĝḝ lubẖaṯ inḝrī ras pareri▫o maḝ ras laiṯ bikĝri▫o re. Karam bẖĝg sanṯan sangĝne kĝsat loh uḝẖĝri▫o re. (3) Those who are deluded by sensual pleasures, who are tempted by sexual delights and enjoy wine are corrupt. But those who, through destiny and good karma, join the Society of the Saints, float over the ocean, like iron attached to wood.(3) (SGGS p335). More shabads can be found. An immoral man such as Ram ‘Ji’ cannot be the Ram which the Guru’s taught about. He is clearly a mortal ingrossed in himself. Guru Hargobind Sahib Ji fought for religion. He battled the Mughals four times and achieved a stunning victory over them in each battle. Through his battles he expounded the need of weapons for a religion under persecution. Guru Gobind Singh Ji also fought 14 battles in the same spirit against Hindu and muslim fanatics. Ram ‘Ji’ only fought a battle for his own personal slight. Nor did he leave any Granth or teachings as his legacy. Clearly he is not a religious figure. Although it is agreed Balmik composed original Ramayana it is today a matter of debate as to the verses prevalent in the epic. Originally thought to be 24,000, today it consists of 40,000. Hindu extremists have no explanation to this. Many historians believe that Balmik Ji borrowed Ramayana from the Buddhist Dasrath Jatka and changed the storyline. The Buddhist version states that Sita was the sister of Ram 'Ji.' Hence he committed incest by marrying her. Mahatma Gandhi never condemned caste-ism, he only condemned untouchability as a physical act. Ayodhya is described as a city with sky scrapers and infrastructure embedded with gems. Archaeologists are yet to find all this. Ram Chandar is not found in the Vedas. Now I want to do one on how Guru Gobind Singh Ji is not an incarnation of Krishna and how Krishna differs from Gurmat. Can anyone provide me with info that is shabads from Gurbani and Dasam Granth to start me off please?

Waheguru ji ka Khalsa Waheguru ji ki Fateh. I have a plea to make to anyone reading this, this plea is in regards to a Singh living in a foreign country for more than a decade. Singh is tomorrow going to talk with a politician regarding political asylum in his chosen nation. Singh needs official documents regarding what India is doing to Sikhs, that is human rights violation etc. It will be greatly appreciated if reports, and websites which can help Singh prove his point can be provided before 3,0, clock tomorrow. Three o clock New Zealand time. Thank u ji.

What sort of stuff ji?

People learn many different martial arts, u can learn krav maga and/or shastar vidya whatever u see fit. Learn how to use firearms. As for Nihungs u will be surprised. I agree that most people here rely on others too much concerning shastar vidya etc.

The reason can be the fact that this was in the days of the birth of Hindu extremism. Sant Ji cleared up all points, otherwise Hindu extremists would have been able to (still are) say that doing aarti with lamps means that Sikhs are Hindus. Shame many Sikhs don't take a lesson from Sant Ji.

Why is it that Hindus feel that they have a right to butt in on our matters? Maybe we should tell them to demolish durgiana mandir in Amritsar which they have built in copy of Darbar Sahib?

The kirpan should be a certain size, what can a 3-inch Kirpan do in a life and death situation. As well as a spiritual it has a physical purpose. All Sikhs are sants and sipaihs.

I will share this on my pages.

I mean come on guys ask a Nihung. They will know. Easy to let Niddar lead u but has anyone bothered asking a real Nihung from the Buda or Tarna Dal?

Oh yeah caste comes into play now. Shame on u.

Logically speaking the Christian view on God is more of someone in a human form who gives u one chance and if u blow it u go to hell. In Sikhi after suffering in reincarnation ur back to stage one and can have another shot at trying to be one with God. There are also many other subtle differences. If Jesus is God in Flesh then why is he labelled as son of God? Why did he call himself son of God if he was God in physical flesh? Why is it stated that God created him explicitly? And why did God say the following: Matthew 3:17 - At Jesus' baptism, the Father spoke from heaven saying, "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." Matthew 17:5 - At the Transfiguration the Father again spoke from heaven saying, "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." He said this is why we should listen to Jesus. Both of these occasions were witnessed by other people, and in both cases Jesus accepted the statements without objection. Can we say that God made a mistake? Bible has been miswritten or misinterpreted in this context? Or that God exists in an attribute less, attribute (sargun/nirgun in Sikhi) form? Is Jesus God himself or an offshoot of God?

What are your opinions on the following. I got it from the godmurders.com. Can God, who is an epitome of perfectness beyond human comprehension be so like us? What conclusion can we reach if we analyze the following in Gurmat terms? The NOTORIOUS Deuteronomy Chapter 28 Verses 20 Through 66 States Deuteronomy 28:20 God will defeat / frustrate every enterprise until you are speedily destroyed / perish. Deuteronomy 28:21 God will make disease attach to you until you are consumed. Deuteronomy 28:22 God shall smite you with consumption, inflammation, fever, extreme burning, with the sword, blasting and with mildew until you die. Dueteronomy 28:24 God will make your land powder and dust until you die. Deuteronomy 28:25 God will cause your enemies to kill you. Deuteronomy 28:26 Your carcass shall be meat for the birds and the beasts. Deuteronomy 28:27 God will give you botch, scab and itch, which can't be cured. Deuteronomy 28:28 God will smite you with madness, blindness, astonishment of heart (panic). Deuteronomy 28:30 God will have another man lie with your wife. Who? God will force your adultery? Isn't it always: The Devil made you do it? Deuteronomy 28:31 You’ll see your ox, sheep and <banned word filter activated> slain and taken from you. Deuteronomy 28:32 Your sons and daughters will be taken and you will be sad. Deuteronomy 28:33-34 You will go insane, driven mad, by what you see. Deuteronomy 28:35 God will hurt your knees, legs and from your head to toe. Deuteronomy 28:38 You will plant much, gather little due to locust. Deuteronomy 28:39 You will plant grapes, get no wine and you'll not gather them due to worms. Deuteronomy 28:41 You'll have children, not enjoy them due to child captivity. Deuteronomy 28:44 Another shall be the head, you the tail. (Torah) Deuteronomy 28:45-46 All these curses will destroy you if you don't listen and obey God, not only you but all your future children's children, forever. Deuteronomy 28:47 You must want to obey (God) with joy and be glad. At least suffer and die with a smile. Deuteronomy 28:48 You shall serve your enemies until they destroy you. Deuteronomy 28:49-50 You will war with a nation swift as the eagle flies whose language you can not understand. A sadistic nation. They have no respect for the old, no mercy for the young. Deuteronomy 28:51 They will eat your animals and crops until you are destroyed. Deuteronomy 28:53-55 You will eat the fruit of your womb, the flesh of your own sons and daughters, while begrudging your relatives any share of your children that you are using for food. Deuteronomy 28:56-57 The most refined and delicate woman will refuse her husband and children her afterbirth and infant, that comes out from between her legs, as she secretly eats them for food. Torah, KJV, Catholic Gary: Ah, let's pass on lunch. Deuteronomy 28:58-62 Do all the laws or fear the glorious and fearful name of the Lord thy God. God will make wonderful long plagues and sickness. He will throw in all the plagues of Egypt all over again. Also, every plague and disease that is not written and you will be left few in number all because you wouldn't obey. Deuteronomy 28:65 In all the nations you travel, you will find no ease, no rest. God will give you a trembling heart, failing eyes and mental sorrow. Deuteronomy 28:66 You will hang in doubt, fear day and night and have no assurance in your life. G: Do you tend to fear a friend or an enemy? Ezekiel 5:10-13 God said: Fathers shall eat sons and sons shall eat fathers. I swear to cut you down. 1/3rd shall die of pestilence and hunger. 1/3rd I will scatter and chase with the sword. Wild beasts will rob you of your children. I will wreak my fury upon them till I am appeased. I, God, have spoken in my jealousy. G: The only natural predator of mankind in The Old Testament appears to be God. Deuteronomy 32:42 God said: I will make my arrows drunk with blood, my sword shall gorge itself with flesh with the blood of the slain and captured, flesh from the heads of the enemy leaders. G: This sounds like a commercial for wrestle-mania. Behold: Here comes Moses' just reward for God's promise and all his murderous work. Deuteronomy 32:48-52 God said to Moses: Go up the mountain and look at the land I give to the children of Israel. Because you trespassed against me, you cannot enter it. KJV Moses died. G: There it is. It can't be any clearer than this. God's promise was broken to Moses, Aaron and Miriam, along with all three million of His chosen people taken out of Egypt, except for Caleb and Jacob. The Biblical God was not a capable administrator of a nation. He was not effective in maintaining harmony among His people. The promises God broke were to the very people He made them to. Mere men have been more integral. How does Moses, in reality, qualify to be a hero with his people or with his God. What did Moses attempt to succeed at but to murder men, women and their babies in order to steal their lands? Sorry for the small text u can see the big version here: http://www.thegodmur...euteronomy.html

Why not just ask a Nihung?

We have to find out what aarti was like in Puratan times. Then we will know what to do and what not to do.

This should help. Plus it has pictorial proof. http://www.jathashaheedan.com/blog/index.php?/archives/28-Aarti-in-Sikhi.html

It depends on the situation I guess. What other way was their to kill Beanta? And did Dilaver Singh kill innocent Hindus for Beanta's paaps? He took out the guy himself who was supported by all radicals (non-Sikh radicals) at the time.

I think that ur source is false. I have never heard of them being excommunicated ever. Even today they are recognised as the shaheeds of the panth. Can u please name ur source? Then more light can be shed on the matter.

Recently I saw a heated debate on facebook which I believe is a testament to the inferior knowledge of Sikhs today. A challenge was put forward as to where it says Khalsa raj, or as most see it, Khalistan should be made in Dasam Granth. No one was able to prove that these lines: 'Sri Mukh bhaniyoo gareeb niwaaz....' where in Dasam Granth. Whats more attacks are being made that Sant Bhindranwale lied about these lines, saying they were in Dasam Granth. How many other such quotes are there which do not exist? And how did Singhs after Operation Bluestar justify Khalistan? Heres the video: Furthermore I remember reading that Santokh Singh Bhangu wrote Panth Prakash in order to justify Sikhs having political power. With Sant Ji being labelled as a liar the excuse for burning of saroops (as of recent) are being blamed on Khalistanis etc. Our own Sikhs are being mislead by such quotes, which exist or do not. So what do we learn about Khalsa raaj, and todays present situation (regarding Hinduvata extremism) from Gurbani. What lesson do we learn and what should we do?

To all the Gurmukhs who posted the videos thank u but is there a definitive answer which all saints agree on?

I cannot see the katha/ video can u tell me whats it called on youtube etc.?

Hmm I wonder who can shed light on this matter.