TheFancyBanana

But Panthiestic don't really accept the concept of a god that's beyond the universe. It's more the universe is god and that's it.

Nothing wrong it :D

If you want I can start now.

True, Very true. But what my point was Guru Nanak not only experienced Waheguru but Waheguru assigned him the task of starting our faith. He also gave him Japji Sahib. In his autobiography Guru Gobind Singh Ji even mentions how Waheguru sent him down to extinguish evil. That;s why I believe Waheguru isn't just a force, but a conscious one.Obviously this is me being very simplistic, he's beyond words and I do apologize to waheguru for trying to describe him.

Depends how you look at it. Waheguru has limitless forms. Creator,destroyer,sustainer,father,mother. I believe experiencing Waheguru is just the beginning. I may be wrong of course.

Completely true. Might I turn your attention to a theory that the universe is a living being? I'm curious to hear your thoughts on it.

also true. Many sikhs believe that the Spiritual realms described in Japji sahib are more like steps. But there is a school of thought that suggests they are actual physical realms as well. Obviously Waheguru is everywhere but at the same time are we really inclined to say what he can't and can do. My own interpretation of that was more like Sach Khand is the heart. Again not saying Waheguru has a heart but like sach Khand is that region where one's duality is abandoned completely and they merge with the lord. As a result that region is where Waheguru "resides" in a sense.

If that makes sense.

everything is within his Hukham, no one is outside of it :0 agree there completely.

Haha, I'm saying panENtheistic, not pantheistic. PanENtheism means Waheguru is the Universe, but is also greater than it. This is what Sikhi (I believe) says about Waheguru, it is the Universe, it is the Hukam, the law, but it is above this form.

It is part of the Hukam. I'm not going to say Waheguru communicated with Guru Nanak Dev Ji to spread Sikhi, rather the Hukam was for Guru Nanak Dev Ji to spread Sikhi. Guru Nanak Dev Ji took it upon themselves to spread the truth in the form of Sikhi.

I don't think Waheguru "gave" Japji Sahib to Guru Nanak Dev Ji. Rather, I think Japji Sahib comes from sach khand, a state where Guru Nanak Dev Ji was one with Waheguru. So it is divinely inspired, but I don't think Waheguru literally wrote it (but everything is Waheguru, so technically, Waheguru did do it).

I reject the idea of prophets, I don't think Waheguru shoots down prophets and messengers to Earth like a post man. Waheguru will enlighten whoever needs to be enlightened.

Karmi apo apni kai nerhe kai door - our actions are own, some are drawn closer, some go further away (according to their actions). If someone attempts to align with Waheguru, they will be enlightened.

Whether the Universe is a living being? Well at one point, the Universe became conscious of itself. When it spawned us humans, it became aware of itself. We are not separate from creation. Waheguru is not separate from us. Perhaps Waheguru wanted beings to be aware of themselves.

Sach khand are those people who realise Waheguru. I agree with you, bani does say there is no difference between Waheguru and the devotee.

Panthestic belief is that the Universe with all it's laws, structures, being is god and the concept of a God as in the one who creates,destroys,sustains,communicates is redundant. It's mentioned countless times that Waheguru is able to communicate, The Japji Sahib is said to be given to Guru Nanak by Waheguru, Waheguru even speaks to Guru Gobind Singh Ji before he is born in this world. Perhaps I was a bit rash to suggest "think" is the right word, he's beyond that. But the key concept of Pantheistic is the belief that the universe is god. Our Gurbani tells us this is true but Waheguru is also a completely separate divinity as well.

Pantheistic would be the wrong word as it eradicates the concept of a God which is also separate from the Universe. Waheguru is the universe but the universe isn't waheguru. The Universe can be destroyed, Waheguru can't.

ਸਚ ਖੰਡਿ ਵਸੈ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰੁ ॥ सच खंडि वसै निरंकारु ॥ Sacẖ kẖand vasai nirankār. In the realm of Truth, the Formless Lord abides.

ਕਰਿ ਕਰਿ ਵੇਖੈ ਨਦਰਿ ਨਿਹਾਲ ॥ करि करि वेखै नदरि निहाल ॥ Kar kar vekẖai naḏar nihāl. Having created the creation, He watches over it. By His Glance of Grace, He bestows happiness.

ਤਿਥੈ ਖੰਡ ਮੰਡਲ ਵਰਭੰਡ ॥ तिथै खंड मंडल वरभंड ॥ Ŧithai kẖand mandal varbẖand. There are planets, solar systems and galaxies.

ਜੇ ਕੋ ਕਥੈ ਤ ਅੰਤ ਨ ਅੰਤ ॥ जे को कथै त अंत न अंत ॥ Je ko kathai ṯa anṯ na anṯ. If one speaks of them, there is no limit, no end.

ਤਿਥੈ ਲੋਅ ਲੋਅ ਆਕਾਰ ॥ तिथै लोअ लोअ आकार ॥ Ŧithai lo▫a lo▫a ākār. There are worlds upon worlds of His Creation.

ਜਿਵ ਜਿਵ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਤਿਵੈ ਤਿਵ ਕਾਰ ॥ जिव जिव हुकमु तिवै तिव कार ॥ Jiv jiv hukam ṯivai ṯiv kār. As He commands, so they exist.

ਵੇਖੈ ਵਿਗਸੈ ਕਰਿ ਵੀਚਾਰੁ ॥ वेखै विगसै करि वीचारु ॥ vekẖai vigsai kar vīcẖār. He watches over all, and contemplating the creation, He rejoices.

ਨਾਨਕ ਕਥਨਾ ਕਰੜਾ ਸਾਰੁ ॥੩੭॥ नानक कथना करड़ा सारु ॥३७॥ Nānak kathnā karṛā sār. ||37|| O Nanak, to describe this is as hard as steel! ||37||

I'll admit my understanding Pantheistic point of view on life is rather limited. But to my understanding Associating Waheguru with Pantheism completely is a bit of a stretch.

Then again us trying to contemplate him is foolhardy haha.

Which is why I suggested the word panenthiestic, where Waheguru is the Universe, but beyond it as well.

This is just my interpretation.

Thank you for not attacking me or calling me a nastik or RSS agent, I've had some people start to attack me for sharing ideas.

I disagree with Waheguru "communicating", my idea is not of this man or entity who communicates with people. Sure, Waheguru is pervading within all of us right now, everywhere. We can form that connection with this singular force. We can experience Waheguru, the awesome enlightener.

Does that mean he sits there talking to people and comes up with plans and ideas for them? I mean I doubt Waheguru would behave anything like a human, talking and thinking.

Bani tells us that Waheguru is beyond our understanding, so It is nothing like a human. It is not limited by a brain or a body to be able to "think" and react to stimuli.

Sach khand is not this special place where the "formless" One resides. By definition, the formless One cannot be restricted by residing in a specific place. This means that sach khand must be everywhere Waheguru is. So sach khand can be reached by us anywhere. Sach khand is the state of being when we become one with our creator. When we lose the power of maya, the duality and begin to experience life through the One.

Waheguru is everything, the bacteria, the ant, the human and the elephant or just part of the play. Waheguru is the director, but It is the actor as well.

capable of thinking,

Waheguru is not a human. How can it "think"? How can the all pervading One, how can the force in the bacteria, to the great elephant, the force driving the sun, the orbits of the planets, how can that One be anything like a human?

How is it possible for us to understand how it works, how it acts?

Panenthiestic is a better word to describe the concept of Waheguru.

Waheguru is the Universe, it drives it. But Waheguru is beyond the Universe, it is above this manifestation. Everything is simply a "manifestation" of that One. When these things are destroyed, they simply return to the One.

ਖਾਲਿਕੁ ਖਲਕ ਖਲਕ ਮਹਿ ਖਾਲਿਕੁ ਪੂਰਿ ਰਹਿਓ ਸ੍ਰਬ ਠਾਂਈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

Khaalik Khalak Khalak Mehi Khaalik Poor Rehiou Srab Thaanee ||1|| Rehaao ||

The Creation is in the Creator, the Creator is in the Creation, totally pervading and permeating all places. ||1||Pause||

Veer ji I think she is talking about the pronunciation of names. I've gone through most of my life with people not pronouncing my name right, I was worried my white friends would laugh at me. But its only been recently that I realised my name was given from Guru Ji and tell new people I meet the proper pronunciation.

But I do agree this issue is not whats "killing" Sikhi.

Fair enough, but compared to the actual problems killing Sikhi, "no parchar, not following SGGS, drugs, alcohol", it is an incredibly small problem.

If we're talking about pronunciation and Sikh terms, I'd like our parcharks and fellow Sikhs to pronounce Sikh properly. I'd like us to use our own terminology. I'd like more accurate English translations, than the Abrahmic and Vedic influenced translations we have.

My point was that there are no "Sikh" names. The only name given from Guru Ji was Singh and Kaur.

I do have a problem with people getting westernised names for their Punjabi names. Like Harjot calling themselves Harry. Being worried about people laughing or changing your name points to insecurites about your culture. This again is a sign of a bigger problem.

People not knowing anything about Sikhi. If you don't know about Sikhi, if you dont understand your root, then obviously you will want to fit into your wider society and blend in. If you have that strength from Sikhi, you will stand out in the world. Even if you have a different name, you will be secure about yourself.

One way to overcome, is to read carefully each and every single word from the Bani, (not like parrots)and let it go deep within us, by His Simran, then only shall we see the difference within us, we shall come to know by ourselves, if we are true sikhs or just by lips.

There is no match to Gurbani, neither in taste, neither in the goodness... Gurbani is unique and supreme.

Completely agree. It is a disservice to SGGS when we just get people to parrot the words, when we don't share it with others.

A Sikh's root is SGGS. Without the Guru, what are we?

Whats wrong with a coat and tie and a veil? It may not be Punjabi culture however it is a form of respect.

Guru Amar Das Ji banned the veil.

When was Punjabi ever the same as being a Sikh?

This mentality is what hampers the growth of Sikhi, we think "Punjabi" rather than "the world".

There have been Sikhs from across the world since the Gurus. Look at Guru Nanak Dev Ji, he didn't just walk around Punjab, enlightening Punjabis. He travelled the world, spreading Sikhi.

Only 1 or 2 of the panj pyare was a Punjabi, the rest were from Orissa, Gujrat, Assam. There would have been a lot of variation in their builds and appearances.

Sikhi has no race or ethnicity. Sikhi is just Sikhi, it doesn't have an appearance or a height.

All Sikhs eventually have the same identity, the image of Guru Ji, regardless of their height or build.

I don't understand, was this person a Sikh (no dastar) or was he a non-Sikh?

I can understand where the Singh is coming from. At my local Gurdwara, people just use the car park to go to the shops. The car park is property of the Gurdwara, for people who want to go to the Gurdwara. It is right that the sangat stops people who aren't going to the Gurdwara from parking there, it just blocks up spaces.

If this is the case, then the Singh could have phrased his reasoning in a better way.

If they were preventing a non-Sikh going to the Gurdwara, then that is not how a Sikh should act.

What about white or red wine vinegar? Would an amritdhari be allowed to consume things with that?

Are you going to get drunk off it?

If not, then its fine.

If you're having alcohol to get drunk, then you should stay away from it.

Soo..? I forget where, but I heard that helping those types of people result in a pig afterlife.

Thx for the lovely reply.

What are you going on about?

Who said you will become a pig for helping someone?

I doubt Guru Nanak Dev Ji became a pig when he helped Sajan Thag. Guru Ji could have let Sajan Thag carry on killing and being a slave to his ego. But Guru Ji went and helped him, he did sangat of the lowly people and helped to bring them up. He helped them to realise that Waheguru was within them.

Someone becomes a pig when they focus on themselves. When they are greedy and focus on their own ego. That is when the mind is a pig. How do you stop being a pig? You destroy your ego and see the light of Waheguru in everything. You don't see drug dealers, you don't see enemy soldiers.

Like Bhai Kanaiya Ji, you serve those who need help.

Yeah they do. I was talking to them about this like a week ago and they said "You're only twelve and we know you IDENTIFY AS A SIKH but you can't have kesh". They think I'm still a Christian. But whatever. One day they'll realize, whether it be this life or not.

I've shown them about Sikhi but I really feel like they were only half listening.

Yeah, I recently felt attached to my hair and one time I cried after a haircut. Yeah Waheguru will do kirpaa for me eventually and what a great day that will be.

The Khalsa Panth is awakening. Dhan Dhan Sri Vaheguru that you have blessed my foolish Sikh to begin to walk on the path, no matter how far many home is.

You re,ain in cherdhi kala too!

Wjkk wjkf!

It can be hard for a parent. Your parents are Christian, I don't know how religious they are, but they might think that Chrisitanity is the only way that is right. As long as you feel Sikhi is best way for you, then it doesn't matter what other people think.

You are at a young age, at this age we do go through phases. So, they might assume that you are just exploring and will lose interest. I'm not saying that you will lose interest, you may be at peace with Sikhi and find that it helps you to realise Waheguru. But your parents might assume that you will grow out of it.

You are already walking the Gurus path, you seem to be growing in your Sikhi already. I guess the best thing you can do to show your parents how much Sikhi means to you, is to put it into practice. Start helping out with charities, work to fight your 5 thieves, contemplate upon Waheguru.

Punjabi atheist slag is no sister of mine understand?

I only respect for Sikh sisters who marry Sikh men as Guru Ji has instructed them to not atheist punjaban slags who sleep with every dog under the sun and try to disgrace the gurdwara by trying to marry a non-sikh in the presence of Guru sahiban.

Calm down bro.

ਨਾਨਕ ਫਿਕੈ ਬੋਲਿਐ ਤਨੁ ਮਨੁ ਫਿਕਾ ਹੋਇ ॥

Naanak Fikai Boliai Than Man Fikaa Hoe ||

O Nanak, speaking bitter words, the body and mind become bitter.

ravidassian cultists are another group of snakes that should have been left to rot when muslim invaders and hindu kings were enslaving their people to work for free.

one by one ....the people that the Sikhs had saved in history, always backstabbed the Sikhs one way or another... the reason is because Sikhs dont think much with their heads but more with their hearts, they look out for other communities while their own get used and abused by ungrateful dogs they once helped.

We need to be more like the muslims, jews and guji hindus they are tight with their money and hardly ever help people of other communities. Recently a nagar kirtan went past and some of our guji neighbours said punjabi sikhs are very generous people they give so much food and drinks for free to everyone. And then I remembered what happens during a hindu guji procession and they only give our refreshments right at the end to their own people. Which is what Sikhs should do be doing but Sikhs being daft they dont realise other communities dont care about how generous they are.... lesson in life is....you gotta look out for your own Sikh community first cos no one else will.

Except that totally goes against Sikhi and what our Gurus taught us to do.

It goes against the things they actually practiced!

I completely agree, we should be more vigilant and should protect our own better. We have failed to stick together, we always argue and fight each other. Thats the problem, there is no leadership, no combined effort to tackle problems. We need to act together to solve our problems. Would we be so easily attacked if we got together?

But we should never stop doing the things our Gurus taught us to do. Why shouldn't we share food with others? Why shouldn't we defend other communities?

Do we really need a thank you from people if we do the right thing?

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

Speaking Gurmukhi is similar, to Punjabi but not exactly same.

There are some phrases, that are just more fun to say in Punjabi then english, and when i'm with my friends we tend like what or how you doing in punjabi.

Learning it won't be that difficult, If you learn it you can speak/read Gurbani much better.

Check out these people, there from America and can probably speak much better Gurmukhi and Punjabi than me. Link

You could learn from Basics of Sikhi they got some videos on learning Gurmukhi

Gurmukhi is not Punjabi.

Gurmukhi is a script the Gurus used to write bani. This is because they wanted to use a script that was easy to learn and was available to everyone. The Hindu and Abrahamic scriptures were in the hands of scholars and priests, only they could read it. Low castes were not even allowed to listen to the Vedas, the Brahmins would put metal in their ears if they listened to the Vedas.

The Gurus wanted their bani to be read by many people. Gurmukhi is the script they used to write bani. The Guru Granth Sahib is written in many languages and dialects, often there is a combination of languages used, but they always wrote in Gurmukhi. So you can't speak Gurmukhi because its not a language, its a script.

Gurmukhi doesn't have any special rules or silent letters. You spell words phonetically when if you are using Gurmukhi. Its quite easy to learn.

Punjabi might be a bit harder, but if you stay around Punjabi people and study Punjabi, you should be able to pick it up.

essentially you are admitting 1+1=2 for one person and for another it equals 11 and for another it equals 112. Gurbani is not dependent on people like math is not dependent on humans. Both have absolute answers and are born in the absolute. Nor does Gurbani change from person to person. Each person comes to terms with math; 1+1=2. In the same way each person has to let go of their own frame of reference to understand Gurbani. Which clearly you are refusing to do.

My little brother, you picked the perfect line to show your contempt toward Gurbani. Why do you continue to force your opinion on Gurbani? The key word in this tuk is contentment. Meaning a person needs to be satisfied with the reality of, all of Gurbani is the truth. You are not satisfied with this because you continue to say a certain portion of Gurbani contains falsehood like in this line; the first word Thaal. In the previous example you misinterpreted Khands to mean continents and said it was a metaphor. Therefore I asked you what is stopping another from saying IK ONKAR is a metaphor, which you give no reply too. This tuk starts off with saying Gurbani is the truth. First please realize this simple fact and then we can continue to do the veechar (contemplate) over the following tuk.

I am perfectly satisfied for not know what the Thaal is in this tuk. My mind is content with it because I know I am reading the truth and when Guru Sahib is will to tell me what the Thaal is in this tuk, I will listen to him and bow with humility. What I have noticed thus far from others who are studying Gurbani is the need to make sense of everything according to their intellect and previous teachings. Anything that does not fit into their intellect is either a metaphor or some abstract idea that does not exist or can't be done in real life. If you believe in a all powerful and knowing God, then why the need to doubt his ability or writing? He is perfect and his writing (Gurbani) is perfect as him; there is no difference from Gurbani and Akal Purakh. Ram Rai was excommunicated out of Sikhi because he changed one word from Gurbani. Those who rattle off certain words in Gurbani as ONLY metaphors are doing the same as Ram Rai. Ram Rai did it to please the mind of the Muslims and you are doing it to please your own mind and/or those who consider you as preachers.

Leave Gurbani as is and don't change it to your thinking. Guru Sahib through Gurbani teaches us to come and sing his Gurbani as a new born child, who knows and understands nothing. Guru Sahib says let Gurbani fill your heart with love and contentment.

The difference between you and me is that I see Gurbani as written and see the examples given. Yet you refuse to see Gurbani as written and only want to see the metaphors that please your mind. The kirpa happens on those who don't change Gurbani to please their mind.

If you think I have contempt for bani, then thats cool.

If I don't gain anything from it, I won't gain anything from it. I will grow and learn from the mistakes I am making.

No Ik Oankaar can't be metaphorical as the Gurus said there was One Waheguru.

I don't see why Guru Nanak Dev Ji would be endorsing Hindu beliefs when he talks about 9 khands. I thought that came from a Hindu belief that Brahma created 9 regions.

This is what I mean by metaphors. They use concepts from many different religions and cultures to explain the truth. They use imagery and poetry to describe the truth.

Just because you explain 1+1 in different ways, it won't change the answer. Different people will have different ways of relating to the truth.

Does Guru Nanak Dev Ji believe Brahma created the Universe? Does Bhagat Farid Ji literally tell you to go cut someones head off who does not bow to Waheguru?

No, that's not the purpose of a heritage site, in essence it becomes a protected site but that doesn't prevent someone from destroying it.

It already is in the hands of the Sikh's, well, the SGPC.

So its not really in the hands of the Sikhs.

What has the SGPC done for Sikhi parchar? What have they done to support families of shaheeds? What have they done to stop Punjab's youth being destroyed by drugs and alcohol?

They don't do anything! The panth isn't in control of the Gurdwara.

I wouldn't want Darbar Sahib as a heritage site. It is the heart of all Sikhs, it is not some cultural tourist site you can come take pictures of to show your friends.

Why would you want to vote for them?

He is clearly just doing it for the votes, yet some of us are getting so excited that he visited a Gurdwara.

Are some Conservative policies really something a Sikh should vote for? Tax cuts for the rich, massive public spending cuts, their involvement in Operation Bluestar and the massacre of Sikhs, passing "terrorism" laws which have the aim of restricting freedom, I could go on, but ask yourself, is this really a party a Sikh should support?