isingh1699

Given what happened in Delhi on 15th August 2013 isn't it about time we the SikhSangat family get the show on the road regarding fundraising for the PURE program?

Moti Ram Mehra?

Yes Veerji, Moti Ram Mehra Ji was a great Guru da Sikh and his offspring were also Sikh but now some (Hindu) frauds are claiming Baba Moti Ram Mehra Ji as their ancestor purely becuase the name "seems" Hindu to them. The enemies of Sikhs use the same evil tricks with respect to Bhai Mardana Ji the first Sikh in our Panth.

And Shaheed Bhai Kirpa Singh Ji is wrongly labelled Pandit even after shaheedi as dushts assume once a Brahmin always a Brahmin when Khalsa Panth rejects biraderi.

_{ADMIN Veerji do u have the technical computer skills to do a gupt paypal link counter to show us how much the SikhSangat forum is raising day by day for the PURE program?}

_{http://www.focuspunjab.org/pure.html}

_{Sadly I don't and pressing post is the maximum I just about know how to manage!}

_{Khalsa Aid have been contacted to put the plan into motion by dealing with you direct to aim for the maximum target we can all raise.}

Can any technical expert brothers and sisters help ADMIN Veerji with this?

It all comes down to parents. All they teach their children is how to to gurdwara, do matha tek, take prashad, eat langar and go home.

they don't teach them what real Sikhi is because they themselves have no idea. They are more into making more money, talking behind people's back, promoting social evils like more preference to male child, discriminating based on caste. and " You are not Punjabi unless you drink"

You're absolutely correct Khalsa Ji.

We need conscription of youth to do seva in poor countries to teach them how lucky we are, what Sikhi stands for and why it's important.

maybe its time to have mainstream films about our gurus and history to reach these people - there's a lack of education in the gurudwaras and its not a recent thing - people who think this way don't go to the gurudwara. They are surrounded by western values of money, live for today and do what makes you happy, so we need new ways of reaching them.

100% true Kaur Ji

All the people who had tweeted in that message are Sehajdhari, we never needed them in the first place, I want to learn if they can become useful; if they are this low then I have no interest in teaching them anything; if they learned to at least keep Kesh maybe I would try to teach these garbage-equals

I humbly suggest to you bro that it's this sneering elitist attitude of yours which pushes such youth away. The consequences of your attitude can clearly be seen.

But the Gurdwara should be the one place you can learn about Sikhi. At home, parents should practice Sikhi so that their kids can see and learn and reinforce the message.

Absolutely right Veerji. Children follow where parents lead. Thus where parents fail we as a Sangat need to provide as positive an influence/mentoring as we can.

From what I've heard, stuff like Sikh girls marrying Muslims guys is close to being a societal norm in Canada, with the girl's family flinging open their doors and welcoming their Muslim son-in-law into their homes, yet in the UK I'm pretty certain such news is greeted by people with the clicking of tongues and striking of the forehead with the hand. :lol2:

Not so Veerji. The overwhelming majority of Sikh-Muslim marriages in Canada are between a male Sikh and a female ex-Muslim who rejects the sexual discrimination of Islam. Only in Ontario are Pakistani levels beginning to grow to the levels where they can try emulate their Muslim grooming + love jihad tactics as employed in the UK.

ਪੁੰਨੀ ਪਾਪੀ ਆਖਣੁ ਨਾਹਿ ॥ ਕਰਿ ਕਰਿ ਕਰਣਾ ਲਿਖਿ ਲੈ ਜਾਹੁ ॥ ਆਪੇ ਬੀਜਿ ਆਪੇ ਹੀ ਖਾਹੁ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਹੁਕਮੀ ਆਵਹੁ ਜਾਹੁ ॥੨੦॥

Veerji absolutely agreed that as per Gurmat, that as we sow, so shall we reap. However, i humbly submit to you Pyare Veer that we should not presume as to how God's infinite greatness delivers the reaction to each action (both positive and negative).

Do not dismiss something simply because Hindus also coincidentally happen to believe it.

Veerji the Hindu's and particularly their evil racist ideologue Rishi Manu devised the so-called Karmic system of justice as many nowadays interpret it. Guru Sahib turned these Hindu lies on their head by denying that the suffering seen in this life is as a result of past sins. As Guru Sahib were the champion of the poor (Garib Nawaz), the weak and the oppressed whom Hindutva terrorism accused of being responsible for their own suffering (due to past misdeeds in previous lives). 1947+1984+the multiple other Islamic Ghallugharas against our Qaum conculsively show that we can never agree with Manu Smriti.

Do you believe in reincarnation?

Absolutely Veerji. But if you were asking if I believe whether one life will get a dark skinned malnourished child from Africa a promotion in the next to being a healthy well fed, well educated kid in America in the next life, then no I absolutely do not believe in that. And I belive we experience a spectrum of lives and lifeforms in order to enable our soul to progress to merger with The One.

So if a girl was raped she deserved it for her past life karmas? We shouldn't save her either if we could as it would intervene with her karmas punishment going against god's justice?

You hit the nail on the head Dalbir Singh Veerji. This is what our enemies laughed about when they tossed up Sikh babies on to spears in Pakistan in 1947 and when they set fire to Sikhs in 1984 with kerosene supplied by Congress. That this was pur so-called karmic punishment for past misdeeds. No Sikh should believe this lie.

If you are a conscious human being, aware of life is sacred. Free will is the greatest gift of Whaeguru to human beings, you will not revoke other beings free will by rape, killing or other means. Free will means that we have a choice to create our own experience in this life. Since physical life has a polarity of two forces love and fear. GOD put a choice in front of us how do we want to create our experience love or fear?

Veerji absolutely agreed, no true Sikh will kill or rape others. But we must also be careful to reject the lie that those innocent victims of genocide, rape and disability suffer as a result of their previous misdeeds in previous lives as this is a pure Hindutva lie propagagted by Manu Smriti (primarily to assist in the oppression of dalits and women). Gurmat is wholly based upon truth and reason. Gurbani cannot be separated from reason. Thus we shouldn't speculate unduly about that which we are unsure about.

God alone knows everything as pyare Veer Bijla Singh Ji rightly said. So why not let us entrust all justice to Akal Purakh rather than by the lies propagated by Manu Smriti.

were punjabi hindu gursewaks disowned as sikhs? Such as the guy who gave hot milk to the chotee shabizaday?

Dalbir Singh Veerji from my understanding all Gurswevaks, though perhaps Hindu and Muslim and Jain originally, were Guru de Sikh ultimately.

For example Baba Moti Ram Mehra was a Guru da Sikh but enemies of our Qaum have transformed his pavithar memory into being thought of as a Hindu Kashyap Rajput. The truth is Moti Ram Mehra Ji was a Guru da Sikh who fought for the Khalsa Panth but suddenly a bunch of crooks are trying to claim Baba as their ancestor.

If this taliban mentality doesnt stop then soon we will have a bhagat sain gurdwara..

I totally agree with the direction of your point Satbachan Veerji but just to remind readers of the Sikh vision of (Kesdhari) Bhagat Sain Ji that we hold (in contrast to our enemies later portraits of Bhagat Sain Ji)

http://www.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://www.amritsar.com/images/gallery/sain.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.amritsar.com/cgi-bin/Gallery/picture.pl?day%3D30%26month%3D6%26year%3D2005&h=553&w=553&sz=43&tbnid=c_4N4LGBfMOyXM:&tbnh=90&tbnw=90&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dbhagat%2Bsain%26tbm%3Disch%26tbo%3Du&zoom=1&q=bhagat+sain&usg=__BxwhFiF7dMoslJbDmQEajZZDtgE=&docid=UQiylAwWpg5IhM&sa=X&ei=FTMMUvilJOO-0QWO84GYCw&ved=0CD4Q9QEwBQ&dur=4623

The great thing about this thread is that the overwhelming majority of the Panth welcome + respect our sehajdhari brothers + sisters to participate more within + on behalf of the Panth in contrast to a small but vocal minority of haters amongst us who want to see the Sikh Panth's population made as small + powerless as possible.

Moneh are not Sikhs. 'Rehat bina na sikh kahave' - Guru Gobind Singh Ji.

Poodna Ji are you understanding the meaning of Rehat? Is Rehat for you just a set of rules to follow in order to get classified as a Sikh and to be employed to keep the population of Sikhs as small as possible as the RSS would like? Or should we understand the Rehat that Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj was talking about - whereby Rehat means living one's life the correct way. Thus, if we keep kes but drink alcohol or call ourselves Sikhs yet hate on others for the genetic disposition they were born into then clearly there is zero merit in us calling ourselves Sikhs. If we believe in biraderi or believe in a rapist as our spiritual teacher then clearly there's not much point in us outwardly claiming to be Sikh. Dasme Pathshah's point was that in order to consider ourselves Sikh we must live the life matching it spiritually and perform the necassary actions for Sarbat Da Bhala to go with that. Thus, the point upon Rehat is not to sehajdhari's but is applicable to Kesdhari's and indeed Amritdhari's too. You define Sehajdhari's as non-Sikhs meaning that "Sikhs" as defined by yourself and the RSS amount to no more than 5% of eastern Punjab's overall population. So presumably I take it that that your opposition to defining sehajdhari's as non-Sikhs stems from a desire to ensure that Sikhs never have Khalsa Raj? As quite clearly without a demographic base upon which to build Khalsa Raj it is highly unlikely to ever take shape. It's nice to know that you considered Shaheed Bhai Satwant Singh ji, Shaheed Bhai Kehar Singh Ji and Bhai Rajoana Ji as non-Sikhs when they put their lives on the line for the Panth. Instead of classifying sehajdhari's as non-Sikhs or worrying about the one in a thousand Sikhs that might be gay wouldn't it be better if we encouraged sehajdhari's to join us in the battle to obliterate drugs, alcohol, biraderi, illiteracy and abortion as five of the main pillars in our modern Dharam Yudh for which we need as many people as possible to stand shoulder to shoulder in fighting against (including yourself and gay Sikhs).

Vaheguru has created a system of action and reaction. Everything that happens within that system is within His hukam. His Hukam and it's workings are so great that it is beyond our limited intellect.

Agreed with all of the above Jonny Veerji

Everything that happens to us is a result of our past karams,

Strongly disagree with that though Pyare Veer. The Islamic Ghallugharas of our Panth, the Pakistani Genocide of Sikhs in 1947 and the Congress GOI Genocide of Sikhs entirely repudiate the concept that devout Gursikhs suffered as a result of past karams. Karma refers specifically to actions in this life (for which there is undeniably an action and reaction which takes one further or closer to merging with God). It was only Manu Smriti, the handbook of Hindu terrorism and caste discrimination that invented the lie that present day suffering is as a result of past sins. Sikhi rejects this Hindu concept entirely. All evil actions in 1947+1984 were done by our enemies rather than deserved punishment for the supposed past sins of devout Gursikhs.

but at the same time when someone does something bad to us it does not necessarily mean it is a result of our past karmas, maybe the aggressor has created a new bad karma by doing something bad and for that he will pay in the future.

The whole "payment for present sins in a future life" is classical Hindutva philosophy Veerji.

Guru Sahib never presumed to finitely box in or define God's unlimited and infinite methods for ensuring Justice as per Hukam..

In Sikhi, both nadar (grace) and karma (fruits of actions of past lives) have a role to play in what happens in our life.

Pyare Veer, karma in Sanskrit specifically means actions of this life.

Only in Manu Smriti did it begin to be perverted to the meaning of previous lives.

There is also a third element at play, the grace of Gurmukhs/Sants - such sants are parupkari (merciful to others) and so pray to Vaheguroo to take on some of the bad karma of another person, the event will then happen to that person.

Veerji my limited understanding of Sikhi is that we do not believe in intercession like the Hindu's + Muslims with pirs + sadhu's doing deals for us.

Dalbir Singh Veerji. Everything is part of Hukam at the ultimate level. If the dude survives (injured or unscathed) let us thank God (rather than his so-called actions in a previous life). If he's paralysed then let us focus on blaming that on the shooters rather than the one suffering. If the innocent dies - clearly solely as a result of the evil murderers - then that should mean mukthi and merger with The One.

You know what, Bradistan is currently the subject of another thread. Why not make a trip there?

Ok, now I could think of a thousand and one reasons why you'd want to avoid doing exactly that, but let's say, for illustrative purposes, you've got a few screws loose, so you take a sojourn to lovely Bradford, to see the islamic hell hole for what it is, in order to convey the below point.

You'd hear a lot of Panjabi spoken. But, you wouldn't see many Sikhs speaking it.

That's because the majority of Panjabi speakers, in Bradford, across the UK, and in fact, all over the entire world, are pakistani muslim, and not Sikh at all.

__________________________________________________________________

Shocked?

If you're not, then you're in the minority.

In fact, much of our community is so self contained, that our general misconception that Sikhs hold some kind of monopoly over the Panjabi language, is one of the most common delusions prevalent amongst Panjabi (especially rural) Sikhs.

That, and the other, of course, being our stupid idea that almost all Jatts are Sikhs.

The unholy equation goes something like this:

"Panjabi = Sikh = Jatt".

While readers of this forum would no doubt laugh at the stupidity of anyone who could actually believe that could be true, I could still show you about 90% of people from a certain biraderi who actually still believe that to be true in 2013.

__________________________________________________________________

So many Sikhs, detached from the wider environment that they live in, and furthermore, still stuck in the whole "we're all asian" delusion, enthusiastically quote the fact about Panjabi being one of the most widely spoken second languages in the UK, as if it's a badge of honour for them.

They are comically oblivious to the fact that the statistic is not of their creation, but rather that of their deepest enemy's.

That same enemy that threw their ancestors' babies up in to the air, only to catch them on their wooden spikes, then made garlands of the severed infants' heads to place around the mother of the murdered children's neck, while she was forced to grind corn for the sadistic mohommedans, that so many of our own would assert to be our "panjabi brothers", in evidence of this irrelevant statistic.

Clowns.

Excellent post Jashb Veerji. I'm glad you are one of the Sikhs that realise the 100 million Punjabi Muslim population means we should detach ourselves from Punjabi culture completely and attach our loyalty solely to Gurmat. Liaquat Ali Khan (the 1st Prime Minister of Pakistan) and Sajjan Kumar are two of the most famous Jatts I can think of and the Jatts of Haryana are busy ethnically cleansing Sikhs out of Haryana just like their Jatt brothers from Pakistan who brutally killed Sikhs in 1947. Sikhs have no caste and the more we emphasise that the more young Sikh women might actually marry within the community rather than having the perception that they are from the wrong biraderi when Guru Sahib repeatedly emphasised Kul Nash (as opposed to idiotic gotra pride).

We need a coherent and practical response to this phenomenon. Simply disconnecting those who inter-marry from the Sikh Panth is not practical and will not help.

Canada and the UK are our big overseas strongholds. 99% of people in these countries are non-Sikhs. 98.2% of Indians are non-Sikhs. In urban Punjab we are a minority.

Even in Chandigarh, our proposed capital only 19% of the population are Sikhs. So were it not for education about Sikhi, statistically it could be assumed that four of out of five Sikh young women in Chandigarh would marry non-Sikhs. Thankfully, that's not the case as there is enough basic knowledge and loyalty within the Panth to currently avoid that. But when throughout the World only one person in 250 is Sikh we have to realise that the odds are stacked against us in assuming that intermarriage will never occur. When it does occur, denying a Gurdwara blessing to a couple who wish for Anand Karaj is tantamount to cutting off generations of future Sikhs from the Panth. We can protest and gatecrash again and again and again, until with every generation we lose at least 20% of the Qaum to intermarriage and subsequent boycott+disconnection. Or we can use the desire for an Anand Karaj as a means of reconnecting lost souls back into the mainstream of the Panth. We also need to distinguish between spouses from Dharmic faiths and Abrahamic faiths because in the case of the former Sikhi is the automatic logical choice of any child from such a union (though we can't be so naive as to assume all our Qaum will be Amritdhari given that only Panj Piare had the bravery to answer Guru Sahib's call in 1699).

Without a coherent integrative plan to deal with ever increasing intermarriage we are destined to suffer a future significant Panthic population decrease worldwide.

The easiest way to deal with it is by accepting every person who sincerly marries via Anand Karaj as Sikh and using mob force against the pretenders who lie (rather than in cancelling weddings). By formally rejecting discrimination against women that is in the Bible, Quran and Manu Smriti it ought to catch out a lot of the fraudulent miscreants who marry Sikh girls with ulterior motives. The Panth has to act as the Girl's family in all such cases.

Veerji it was purely for food in times of war (or to defend the community from a predator) with the incidental side benefit of sharpening military skills.

Hunting was never done for entertainment. The lie that Sikhs hunted for pleasure was invented by our enemies to portray us as debauched.

_{isingh1699, on 21 Jul 2013 - 02:28, said:}

_{There is plenty we can do. For a start we can put our money where our mouth is. There's 26,000 members on this site. I'm 100% certain that everyone is enraged that the Muslim murderer Muhammad Azhar Alam (who played such a prominent role in the Sikh Genocide on behalf of Indira Gandhi) is now converting thousands of poor Sikhs to Islam because they are too poor to get cancer treatment (which Alam's Black Cat Sena may well had a role in spreading too via uranium poisoning of wells in Sikh areas as the UN health reports show).}

_{So 26,000 people at an average of $100 each will raise over $2million for the education of Sikh youngsters via the Focus Punjab Education Project.}

_{So i think let's do this, some technical veer set up a gupt paypal donation counter on this thread and see where we can get to in response.}

_{Mehtab Singh Veerji to be administrator of the funds and responsible for their transfer to Khalsa Aid Focus Punjab Education Project.}

_{$2million can buy books for a million poor kids back in Punjab I'm quite sure so let's do this ...}

_{ADMIN Veerji do u have the technical computer skills to do a gupt paypal link counter to show us how much the SikhSangat forum is raising day by day for the PURE program? http://www.focuspunjab.org/pure.html}

_{Sadly I don't and pressing post is the maximum I just about know how to manage!}

_{Khalsa Aid have been contacted to put the plan into motion by dealing with you direct to aim for the maximum target we can all raise.}

Re-opening topic. Requesting all members to refrain from getting personal, directly or indirectly. We are all Sikhs of the same Guru Sahibaan, although we may vary by huge degrees in the way we practice Sikhi.

Veerji can we also have the deleted response to Osingh Ji's original post which was deleted due to it being thought of as racist as pointing out Truth is NOT racism!

Whatever happened to my article on the koran? I hear it is somehow related to this post.

I think because you posted the Truth 13Mirch Veerji ... in the light of some pro-slaveowner posts ... it was mistakenly deemed as racist ... but Truth prevails!

Other way is solely based on mob way- crash the wedding- ruin the wedding, add more stress on two families, ruin the big day for two naive innocent couples just do keep in mind- everything has adverse effect not only this will make us look sikh extremist which i m sure we are not as community reason it appear so because of 1% of people make big noise and nobody is standing against their fascist views, anyway not only it will make look us sikh extermist but also we will segregate/divide people even more and from parchar stand point we loose potential generations of sikhs.

You're totally right N30Singh Veerji.

Behaving like Muslims on this issue does not get us any good publicity but like you correctly say loses the Qaum generations of future Sikhs.

I knew an uncle who said women don't have any zaat in response to his son who eloped with a muslim girl, he told him to bring her home and not worry.

As for what is and what ain't gurmat, what do you think happened to women who were abducted as concubines by the mughals and rescued by sikhs,

The UnlceJi was right Dalbir Singh Ji. In the case of a parent committed to raising their offspring unequivocally as Sikhs then what does it matter what background the woman is from. Obviously with women being the more vulnerable gender a Sikh's daughter should only wed a Sikh and anyone who is sincere should at least be willing to become a sehajdhari member of the community regardless of their race or background - if they are not willing to agree with Sarbat Da Bhala and condemn domestic violence which is given sanction in Manu Smriti, the Bible and the Quran then they clearly have no respect for a Sikh woman (or indeed all women).

Sikh children need to be grounded more, a good pendu style thappar if needed when raising them. Besides, I have thought about it, but the fact that the non-Sikh partner agreed to a Gurdwara wedding shows something no? Shouldn't we go a step further and encourage the non Sikh partner to embrace Sikhi in Sehajdhari form and also raise the kids as Sikhs?

As for the Sikh boys marrying non Sikhs, I've seen Sikh parents often tend to shun boys who marry Gorian or Sullian (or any other non-Sikhs), while they should instead be encouraging to bring them into Sikhi and also the children. Theres many times the girls are even ready to convert but the parents don't agree.

As usual SikhKosh Ji you're correct. In the case of Sikh parents discouraging sons from bringing willing new Sikh partners into the Panth (from originally a non-sikh background) it's a joke. Female spouses of a previously non-Sikh background, i have seen in my family + others, are often more Sikh than many so-called born Sikhs.

Given that 98% of Indians are non-Sikh, 99% of Canadians are not Sikh, 99% of Brits are not Sikh and elsewhere the percentage of non-Sikhs jumps closer to 99.9% we shouldn't be surprised that these types of marriages are taking place. We should make efforts to join the new spouses to Sikhi as N30Singh and SikhKosh Ji have said rather than looking to alienate all future generations away from Sikhi. So long as we are tiny demographic minority alienating people from the Gurdwara will only result in a smaller and smaller Sikh population going forward. The logic of Sikhi means it can be the faith of choice for such families if we play our cards right + emphasise that Sikhi is the only faith with total gender equality and which opposes domestic violence, which is why a male spouse should accept Guru Sahib if he truly loves the girl.

Brother, don't be happy with the pseudo majority in Punjab. We have no majority in Punjab, the people counted as Sikhs also include all the Dera followers and especially with emigration of Sikhs to abroad and immigration of Muslims we surely are not at the 59% anymore. There are thousands of youths (Sikh) emigrate every year (illegaly).

And we have no majority in Haryana, Rajasthan and Himachal, so we could work on some of these too. Baki veer, we slightly differ here and lets just agree to disagree. I'm thinking long term with the current resources and you are assuming mass level parchar will happen (SGGS translated in all Indian languages, less Gurdwaras built, Biharis and Punjabis educated about Sikhi). What you are talking of is a wish, brother not many are working in the direction. But why not help the poor Sikhs who have no houses and in the meantime build them homes in north India instead of south?

SikhKosh Veerji i totally respect where you are coming from on this. We're all on the same side on this. And absolutely correct that our enemies are going all out in their attempts to lower our percentage below 50% in the next census in only 7 and a half years time. With Dera followers being classified non-Sikhs and Abrahamic ideologies being encouraged whilst the modern Genocide of our Qaum via drugs, alcohol, abortion all actively encouraged. But I think we can turn back their gameon our multi-headed Dushts heads by active parchaar to Bihari's in Punjab as well as going all out to re-integrate sehajdhari Punjabi's who call themselves Hindu Punjabi's back into the Sikh Panth via education. Guru Granth Sahib Maharaj is out of the stratosphere compared to what Sai Baba, Durga Devi and Mata Rani have to offer these HP's.

Don't forget Veerji that in Himachal and Rajasthan we Sikhs are only around a mere 1% of the population in both states. In Haryana, we currently stand at 5% and as Haryana's population overtakes Punjab's our percentage is set to further decrease in line with that, as we have seen in the case of Delhi since 1984 where terrorist GOI actions have pushed our population percentage down to 4% currently from just under 7% in 1984. All I would say Veerji is that this is what the RSS and our enemies want, that we be ethnically cleansed out of India (to end our threat) and dumped into a land reservation (like the First Nations people in North America) which is 1% of the size of the Indian land mass (east Punjab). Then just like the white man did to the First Nations people they flood the reservation (Punjab) with alcohol and drugs.

The ONLY thing Muslims should be given by Indian Punjab is assistance in settling SOMEWHERE ELSE. Muslims have their own damn country across the border... it's called Pakistan, they can go live and build their Mosques and Halal chicken shops over THERE.

There are TONS of Afghan Sikhs who left for the UK for example. There are likely many more Sikhs in Afghanistan/Pakistan/other parts of India or wherever else who simply WISH they had the power to leave. Poverty stricken Sikhs outside of Punjab CANNOT be expected to teach about Sikhi as they can barely survive. There's NO reason for them not to be in Punjab. We NEED to reach out to them for the good of everyone involved.

Punjab NEEDS renewable energy. The sunshine is one thing we won't ever run out of in Punjab, so having solar panels (which are expensive) mounted everywhere is the future. We can't trust the Indian government to sort out those crippling power cuts, and without power businesses can't flourish, and the economy will FOREVER be repressed.

Punjab needs more energy, more businesses, more education and more jobs. The sheer potential of the farmland is being wasted by backwards management too. Money makes the world go round, and the more money we have the more political power we have.

The Focus Punjab program from Khalsa Aid sounds PERFECT frankly, I quite liked how he said he didn't care if people were 'offended' that they were only going to sponsor and help Sikh families. THAT is the kind of strong resolve we need and have needed for a long time. I seriously hope they stick to it.

The fact that Sikhs are even in poverty and so damn repressed in the first place, in what is meant to be the Sikh homeland... THAT is a horrible state of affairs, and sorting it should be our number one priority. If they were all healthy and wealthy, imagine all the good Sikhs could do in the world.

This initiative is definitely something I'd support

It's takes governmental power to crack down on issues as bad as the Drugs Trafficking from Muslim countries, power cuts and such. Sikhs in Punjab have to vote, protest and be politically savvy to get the job done. These are things you need to physically live there to be involved in.

What we Sikhs in the West CAN DO is actually pass onto them our wealth, our control of media and our skills and knowledge. The whole POINT of leaving in the first place was to send money back home. Although all that's happened in reality is Sikhs have just kept our success to ourselves and Punjab has been left way behind to fend for itself and suffer.

It's high time to use what we have to empower our people back home, and we don't need anyones PERMISSION or government involvement to do it. We can help Punjab transform into a powerhouse. The greatest state in India, and then maybe it's own nation beyond that.

The process of development so far has been FAR too slow, and too many have stood in the way. Kinda like the few fools on the forums with their constant retarded 'Duh we should respect Islam and not tell people what it ACTUALLY says'...YOU people are holding Sikhi and its message back, and allowing Islam to propagate.

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And finally.

Sikhs always call for Khalistan, but have NO plans on how to create it. I hate to say it but even getting CLOSE to that is nothing but a fantasy and will be for a very long time, we aren't yet anywhere near competent enough. Not to mention... India will never EVER want to give Punjab up (it's the main source of Indian history, food production, culture, military and more), and understandably fearful Punjabi Hindu's don't want to live in a place called Khalistan... just like we don't accept the term 'Hindustan'.

An Independant Punjab however? With Sikhs AND Hindu's united in their shared culture and mutual disgust of the pathetic Indian government? THAT is possible!

A Punjab that can actually make use of its endless native wealth and develop itself.

A Punjab that inherits an army of native soldiers which is LARGER than the British Army.

A Punjab that can END the power cuts, police our own borders and END the flow of drugs and illegal immigrants poisoning our land.

A Punjab that can take to the world stage and actually help humanity.

A Punjab free from Indian rape culture, Indian corruption, Indian starvation and poverty, Indian stereotypes and the rest of its many PR disasters. A country of Lions, not Apu from The Simpsons.

A self sustaining Punjab IS possible, the infrastructure is practically all there. Convincing Hindu's would simply be a matter of showing them how successful we would be WITHOUT Delhi holding us back.

Great post Tandoori Singh Veerji. Only things i'd add are that since all of the Muslims that remained in Malerkotla etc voted for Pakistan we should assist their dream of settling in Pakistan with transport assistance if they are not interested in becoming great Sikhs like Syed Prithipal Singh, Bhai Gurmohinder Singh, Shaheed Laxman Singh Babbar. Even Kuldip Manak saw that Sikhi was the Truth. So if others see the Truth as being pro-slavery, pro-terrorism and pro-pedophilia then maybe the Punjab government should encourage their re-settlement in Pakistan (as the Punjab Muslims had unanimously voted for in the 1940's). As for HP's, if only we can be more accepting of sehajdhari Sikhs they should come to the logic of Sikhi of their own choice. Once more HP's make the decision to come to Sikhi like Mehtab Singh Ji of our forum bravely did then instead of opposing Sarbat Da Bhala they will join us as part of the Sikh Panth on the mission to ensure justice, progress and equality for all.

Had they remained, today due to their birth rate it is very likely the Muslims would have formed the majority and would have tried to ethnically cleanse east Punjab of non Muslims as they did in Kashmir with the Pandit community. If not that then it's very likely that a large Muslim community in Punjab would have been used by the Indian government against the Sikhs in the 80s. Big mistake was to let Malerkotla remain. And for that we paid with Azhar Alam who is from Maler Kotla. Azhar Alam is now trying to create a large Muslim community in Punjab. We must be vigilant about this Dusht.

You're correct Jonny Veerji. The Muslims actually tried to ethnically cleanse us out of east Punjab in 1947 too but forgot that when Sikhs are involved in an even fight with even weaponry, then Sikhs will never retreat and never surrender. In current day East Punjab, Muslims, Hindu's and Sikhs were relatively evenly matched minorities in 1947 and despite far more Muslims in Amritsar than Sikhs, the Punjabi Muslims failed in their aim of ethnically cleansing us out current day east Punjab.

The easiest way to increase the Sikh percentage in Punjab is through having a higher birth rate than the non-Sikhs in Punjab.

You're totally right Proactive Veerji but the problem is we Sikhs already have the lowest population growth and fertility rates among the major religions in India. Also with the scarcity and value of land in rural Punjab (factors which don't encourage secular Sikhs in having too many sons let alone children) and urban real estate prices now out of the reach of many poorer Sikhs these factors are not ideal for Sikhs to raise large families as was the case with our grandparents generation. There is no easy answer to this but encouraging new Sikhs (a few Amritdhari, some Kesdhari and mainly sehajdhari) from Bihari's and HP's as well as an increase in our Qaum's birth rates (after all abortion clinics have been shut down) should make a difference.

Another thing to be done is that abortion needs to be banned state wide. It is a HUGE sin and crime against humanity. Nothing is worse than one killing their own unborn yet living baby. Due to this crime of gender selective abortion our sex/gender ratio is one of the worst. Abortion doctors are doctors of death.

Absolutely Veerji and we need to get heavily militant against the factories of death aka abortion clinics which are heavily encouraged by the Dushts of our Qaum.

The same goes for drug pushers and drugs smugglers and alcohol pushers and suppliers like the Majithia's and Ponty Chadha's of this world.

As for those that are determined to exercise a monopoly on a biraderi-based golak we need to enforce a one Gurdwara per pind policy for greater cohesiveness + Unity

Illiteracy and lack of education is at the root of a lot of our Qaum's susceptibility to anti-Sikh attacks so ADMIN Ji please kickstart the PURE fundraising program on here!

You should read Theodor Herzls 'Der Judenstate' and about the migration of a few decades that got Jews their nation they didn't have for centuries.

SikhKosh Veerji as always i totally respect your sincere viewpoints which i usually totally agree with. But on this the slight difference to remember is that the Jews were a minority in Palestine in the 19th century and our Qaum, of course is a majority in Punjab currently, so the situation is not identical. Though of course our enemies are working overtime to make us a minority in the next census via their Abrahamic allies and Dera allies from Beas, Ballan and Sirsa to name a few.

The lands these Sikligars are living on are often 'illegal' (see case of Sardar Colony, Alwar which is not enjoying facilities other slums are enjoying because its not registered), and ONE day in the future it is sure they will face the fate of Kutchi Sikhs and Uttarkhandi Sikhs who will come under the radar with some land law being enforced and Sikhs evicted.

Assisted migration to the north is only a win win situation.

Veerji it's not a win/win situation because it's voluntary ethnic cleansing of Sikhi from 99% of the land area of the Indian Union.

Even Muslims are doing it in Punjab, they are creating colonies in Malwa and now they are majority in 20 seats of 117 Punjab legislative assembly (according to Izhar Alam himself).

Agreed Veerji, when a Qaum is in a minority then it has to increase it's population to get more political weight in an area. In Punjab, thankfully we are still currently a majority and just need to work more effectively at commmunicating our message to Hindu Punajbi's, Bihari's and souls lost to Derawadi and then Punjab will be much safer from our enemies plans. But outside of Punjab we cannot uproot the small seeds of Sikhi outside of Punjab and have to use those already there to build a platform for encouraging others towards Sikhi. In Punjab we need to enforce a one Gurdwara per village rule and ban new Gurdwara's from being built with biraderi-controlled golaks in mind. But outside of Punjab, the more Gurdware, the more hospitals, the more schools we build the better. We cannot voluntarily ethnically cleanse India of its Sikh problem. We have to make the Sikh Qaum the biggest non-Muslim population demographic in India. What that would take is just over a doubling of our numbers. Provided Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj is translated into all local Indian languages, I am 100% sure we can get to that stage in our lifetime.

Of course, it would help if our own Qaum in Punjab is educated and strong first, so that's why Admin & Khalsa Aid need to make his happen due to public demand to see if we can raise a million plus! Admin Ji, chak do fattay and let's do something for concrete for the advancement of Sikhi via this forum via the Khalsa Aid PURE program.

My friend you compare Atheism to Islam and what have you based this conclusion on?

Atheism is a far better philosophy than Muhammadanism - the ideology of a pedophile and slaveowner.

Yes, I'm an Atheist, I was a Sikh once and an amrithdhairi,

Good on u bro. Since u had no understanding of Sikhi it's good that u opted out of following it for hollow reasons u didn't understand.

I saw no difference in the Sikh religion and all other main stream religions.

There's a pretty big difference. Every other religion (apart from Sikhi) states that only its followers gain entry into heaven, paradise or freedom.

Sikhi however states that only positive and good actions bring a devotee closer to God - not the so-called community an adherent was born in.

The Sikhs I have spoken to are all deluded in this thought that we differ from all main stream religions but never have I been given a strong answer to challenge my opinion.

Look at it like this, for a Muslim its automatic that an Atheist like you will burn in Hell whereas pedophiles are rewarded in paradise.

Sikhi is clear that an atheist Doc who saves innocent lives on a daily basis is a better + more worthy human being (in God's judgement) than ordinary Sikhs like me.

It’s for more easier for me to make an comparison between Islam and Sikh religion and straight away I can read through some of these posts, many of you do sound like Islamic fundamentalists:

· The need for conversion > Good actions by individuals are more important than conversion but it is undeniable that without a critical mass of numbers Sikhs will be unable to meaningfully help oppressed and suffering millions throughout the World. To serve billions of innocents we need hundred of millions of Sikhs to do that. It's not about converting people for the sake of it or to gain reward but it's about being able to better serve humanity through greater numbers.

· You cannot marry outside of your religion > Sikhs marry outside of their religion to a greater percentage than all other major religions out there. Therefore, it is important that children of such mixed marriages are raised Sikh (unless we want pedophile supporters, caste system supporters, nazi racists and big business etc to control the world cruelly forever)

· The Sikh temples need to enforce a stronger policy on Sikh marrying Sikhs > Yes Sikhs need to know why it's important that their spouse agrees with Sikh values in which men and women are equal, in which domestic violence is not allowed (as in the Quran and Bible and books of Hinduism) and all humanity is equal and that children are raised Sikh in order that there be a bigger population to serve humanity in the future.

Are Sikhs that scared about the religion becoming extinct that you require the following to keep it alive.

Sikhi will never become extinct. The Truth can never die. But yes it is up to us how strong the flame of truth burns or are we content to let it flicker weakly as currently

Majority of the youth followers joining the religion are heavily influenced by the Sikh political issues in the late 70’s and 80’s.

So opposing injustice which has not been delivered in over 3 decades is somehow wrong? Simon Wiesenthal must have been a criminal in your eyes too, then?

The hatred fuels your religion, shocking, same as Islam.

Seeking justice for the innocent victims of state terrorism is equal to hatred in your eyes?

Hatred for kaffirs is in the Quran openly. The Guru Granth Sahib is a book of peace and praise of God. It's a shame you see Sikhi and Islam as the same.

Suddenly the need for the religion to be recognised as separate ideology from all Indian faiths,

So the Buddhists and Jains are similarly evil like the Sikh victims of state terrorism for wishing to be recognised as the distinct non-Hindu faiths they are?

Would you be happy as an atheist, to be forced to get married by delcaring yourself as a Christian or Muslim or Satanist or Nazi?

sounds allot like how Islam wants to separate its roots from all Abrahamic religions.

I don't see how Islam can ever manage that given that Muslims believe in the virgin birth of Jesus as stated in the Quran

The similarities are very visible.

Yes Sikhi is a religion of peace, love and serving humanity.

Islam is proud of openly supporting pedophilia, slavery and hatred of non-Muslims. Not much similarity, after all, huh?

Is it not few years back Akaal Thakat, the political body of the Sikhs announced, you cannot be called a Sikh until you have become an amrtihdhari Sikh.

The Guru Granth Sahib does not define a Sikh as so. Anyone that accepts Guru Granth Sahib Ji as their Guru is made welcome in the House of God (Gurdwara).

Straight away the Sikh religion has decreased it’s numbers of its followers.

Agreed that the RSS and Congress haters of Sikhs succeeded in technically decreasing the number of Sikh adherents through their allies in Sikh bana.

But the enemies of the Sikh Panth who wish to decrease its number of followers can't delete the belief in Sikhi from the heart of non-Amritdhari Sikhs.

As Sikhs you allow a religious political body to run the religion, which is located in a completely different country and cultural differences are never taken into consideration, damn this sound allot like Catholicism.

Do you want to re-site the Akal Takht to Australia? Should the Senate be re-sited to India?

Sikhs have immense cultural differences amongst us but the Truth of equality, justice and charitable service applies to all humanity.

At least in Catholicism they have strong number of followers.

Chrsitianity and Islam got their followers mainly through slavery, colonialism and genocide, so what it there to be proud of in that?

The acceptance of non Asian Sikhs is becoming an issue regarding mainstream Sikhs e.g. 3ho Sikhs.

There is no problem with non-Punjabi Sikhs. The more the better. If 3HO go against Gurmat, is it a crime to point that out or oppose that?

http://www.sikharchives.com/?p=18050

Similarity again with Islam, the ongoing conflict between Shia, Sunnis and Sufis. May not be on that scale but it’s understandable as the Sikh religion is not as large.

All religions have different schools of thought within them. Would you rather that all were automatants following only one communist vision decided by you with no argument?

People from India (Hindu) who I have spoken to, acknowledge Sikh religion is different,

Good.

it’s a branch of Islam

You can't even bring forward 5 Hindu's to openly state that Sikhi is a branch of Islam. Do that and I'll send u 50 bucks.

and the core philosophy is more Islam then Hindhu.

The core and only philosophy of Sikhi is Truth.

It's only in your mind that you consider Sikhi to be more Islam and Hindu (when in fact Sikhi exposes both larger religions as false).

Now you tell me how is that so?

Because certain non-Sikh individuals like yourself simply don't get it.

Sikhs are suppose to be distinct, well non Sikhs don’t see that distinction.

Who cares what non-Sikhs think of us? The Sikh Panth knows what it is and what it stands for - Sarbat Da Bhala (the welfare of all humanity)

Majority of the studies. Which are conducted within India regarding religion, the Sikh religion is acknowledged as Abrahamic religion then Dharmaic.

Please educate me which studies say that Sikhi accepts a slaveowner like Abraham?

Well how has that suddenly changed, maybe to do with the internal misunderstandings within the religion.

Sikhs can be wrong in their individual lives but Sikhi isn't wrong as a truthful philosophy itself.

After independence of India and Pakistan, main stream Sikhs have continued to push Sikhs out of the religion because they viewed the teachings differently to the main stream and the number of Sikhs got smaller. Sikhs seem to have this trend of pushing its followers out.

Agreed that the RSS+Congress and their allies in bana have suceeded in making the Sikh population smaller.

But every time in history the Sikh population has fallen (temporarily) it always resurges longer term.

Atheism has allot of flavours, which is fantastic.

So do all religions. Choice of interpretation is not always a bad thing.

Why would someone bore themselves with eating the same food every day.

Sikhi isn't for our entertainment from boredom.

It's about belief in one God with service to humanity to create a better World for innocent children of all faiths to grow up in.

Looking at the Sikhs religion through history, there were many flavours many Philosophies maybe that was the reason why I was attracted to it,

There still are. Unity in Diversity is a strength when it is coupled with brotherhood and standing shoulder to shoulder in times of adversity.

But, as a Sikh you only can go so far before the holes in the religion start to appear and when you question, you are told to be silent and accept it.

There are no holes in Sikhi. Go ahead and question Sikhi to your heart's content.

Sikhi has all the answers even if ordinary Sikhs like myself perhaps don't (though we can try for you).

As a Human being it’s in my nature to evolve, learn and question.

Sikhs are perpetual "seekers" of knowledge. That's what defines a Sikh. We are not meant to have blind faith and hold it without question or understanding.

Why would I need to follow something that was written 500 years ago.

Truth is eternal. It wasn't conceived 500 years ago. But maybe you just feel better following something you started believing in your mind 5 hours ago.

It's your democratic choice to follow in the atheist footsteps of such famous Atheist figures like Jawaharlal Nehru, Stalin and Adolf Hitler.

But even as an atheist, you should see that Sikhi is the most benign faith for you as an atheist to support from outside as well as for global society. An Islamic world will be far worse for you so I encourage you that even if you stick to the atheism that entertains you and keeps you from getting bored then at least support Sikh charitable initiatives which make the world a better place such as

www.khalsaaid.org

I will say look at this guy first and assess if the medical facilities are enough some of those sgpc hospitals don't seem to be working simply because punjab seems to be increasing in the number of patients with cancer, sarna made a hospital which was caught out under huge embezzlement charges, if his opposition party were able to rat him out just think what kinds of embezzlement could be going on with the others.

Pigalwala has done great work I don't want to put them down, but they were an independent organisation the sgpc could have supported them more. Plus compared to the population of sikhs more of it is needed.

As for the quality of the sgpc hospitals all I can say is if you were in india and weren't well I would advise you stay clear of the sgpc hospital pay your money and go private, government and sgpc hospitals aren't exactly experts in quality assurance.

I totally agree with what you say above Veerji. Corruption with regards to SGPC needs to be dealt with the same way Guru Gobind Singh Ji dealt with the Mahants. And totally agreed that we need to do a lot more on the medical seva front. And not just in Punjab, we have to do seva for everyone in India and Africa as well (as that's where most new Sikhs will come from too).

As usual it's Khalsa Aid who brought the youtube video and we need your help too so that ADMIN Ji can get the www.KhalsaAid.org SikhSangat PURE program donation counter set up on the Muhammad Alam conversion thread.