isingh1699

I think more then leaflets sikhs need to do medicinal help and offer medical aid,

I agree with you Dalbir Singh JI though SikhKosh Veerji does as well, of course (with parchaar via leaflets easily running parallel).

christians, hindus and muslims offer them in same shape or form to their own sikhs used to offer it in the gurus time but we don't anymore.

Dalbir Singh Veerji, been reading some really great posts by yourself recently but on this I gotta slightly disagree.

SGPC and the Sikh Panth run more free hospitals than any other faith organisation in India. Pingalwara and Kagidhar Trust are doing great efforts on the free medical assistance front too. SGPC's mistake is that they waste money on fireworks at Diwali when it should go to the poor, wasting money on buildings+statues while Sikh children can't get education or healthcare etc.

And oddly, wherever Christians + Muslims are pimping out their Abrahamic lies, SGPC free medical assistance always vanishes!

The very focus of each and every Gurdwara has got to be practical samaj seva and charitably uplifting society around us with inspiration from Gurbani. If we step up seva to the poor, regardless of if they accept Sikhi or not, Sikhi will still be victorious.

ADMIN Ji can u set the ball rolling please?

This was known to the Sikh militants who right after the riots began planting bombs near areas where many of these rioters came from.

Veerji all bombs planted in poor areas were done by Congress in order to paint the Sikhs as terrorists + solidify the Congress votebank.

The Khalsa Panth never targets innocent human beings. We can only extract justice from the individual dushts that co-ordinated Genocide against us ... not indiscriminately against innocent poor people. For example, Shaheed Bhai Beant Singh and Shaheed Bhai Satwant Singh took great care only to target terrorist Indira Gandhi.

You need to read up on the personal accounts of the survivors. Many Sikh and Hindu bibis who were kidnapped and gang raped were mostly married off to the low caste Muslims i.e. Rakshawalas, Rehdiwalas, poor Muslims.etc.

I have Veerji and you do realise that it was the Muslim Zamindar castes (who held the strings of the well-planned Pakistani Genocide of Sikhs) sold off the female rape victims to their poorer brethren as they didn't want to have sex with what they saw as previously spoiled goods (very much similar to how Prophet Muhammad in the Holy Quran enjoins Muslims to enjoy and profit from the fruits of war against non-Muslims and participate in the rape of slavegirls). Of course you rightly point out that the Punjabi Muslims despised Sikhs on a collective basis, irrespective of their Muslim castes due to brainwashing by Qazi's.

I don't think the Sikh death toll was 25%.

Given that total fatalities due to Partition were between 1million to 1.5million of which Sikhs comprised 35-40% of the innocent victims (despite our 13% population share) coupled with the fact that a minority of the Panth lived in Pakistani districts, we clearly see that 25% of the Sikh Panth in Pakistan being killed in Jinnah's Genocide of the Sikhs is fully conceivable Veerji.

Sikhs in east Punjab retaliated and killed about 5 Lakh Muslims. So Sikhs killed double more Muslims than Muslims killed Sikhs.

Veerji these are skewed figures cooked up by Muslim and Hindu writers to paint the Sikh Qaum as beasts when we merely defended ourselves from annihilation and extermination in east Punjab at the hand of Muslim aggressors. For a community which is many times more numerous than us, their casualty figures were only marginally above our own. They were ready to kick us out of Amritsar, Jalandhar, Ludhiana all the way to Delhi. But Sikhs foiled the attempts of Muslims to exterminate us wherever we had reasonable numerical strength of numbers to defend ourselves. As you have pointed out before, demographics are vital and we desperately need to include as many as possible (as soon as possible) within the Sikh Panth if we are to avoid repeats of 1947 and 1984.

So many Muslims had died at the hands of Sikhs that at the time Muslims and Hindus alike began to blame Sikhs for all the partition violence.

That's what disgusting Veerji.

We were the innocent victims of Partition and we get blamed for defending ourselves against Pakistan's Genocide of Sikhs!

Muslim writers would only understand what we Sikhs suffered if 25% of their Qaum in Pakistan (50million) was killed by terrorists.

Sikhs were used as a scapegoat by both the communities who wiped their hands clean of any crime even though the real perpetrators of the riots were the Muslims.

You're 100% correct Veerji

The Hindus lead by Gandhi who were trying to appease the Indian Muslims also happily blamed the Sikhs for all the partition violence and even branded the Sikhs as a "Criminal community" which was exposed by Sirdar Kapoor Singh Jee.

Standing up for human rights, liberty and Sarbat Da Bhala has always gotten Sikhs labelled as criminals as terrorists.

Gurbachan Singh Talib wrote his famous book setting the record straight.

Well reminded Veerji of Gurbachan Singh Ji's book.

The above link has some info about he credentials of the sodhak committee. And the Bani is called Charitro Pakhyan, not triya chartar. Do you have any evidence that the Arya Samaj is behind the positioning of Benti Chaupi in Charitro Pakhyan?

Jonny Veerji i think the Sodhak committee link u posted clearly exposes Khem Bedi's pro-Hindu and anti-Sikh agenda. I was under the impression that CharitroPakhyan was comprised of Sri Benti Chaupai (as one spiritually distinct part) along with Triya Charitar (as the other larger component on women's character via adult-nature stories).

Given Khem Bedi's blatantly anti-Sikh credentials and his de facto position as editor-in-chief of the Sodhak Committee (that he assembled) is there any doubt that he deliberately positioned Sri Benti Chaupai Sahib along with Triya Charitar? Is it not patently obvious what Khem Bedi and an alliance of Panthic dushts (Arya Samaj + British Empire) stood to gain by Khem Bedi deliberately juxtaposing the two on their behalf?

Especially bearing in mind the following and very damning evidence:

Khem Bedi that was Amitabh's ancestor was notoriously very anti-Sikh.

Khem Bedi hated Giani Ditt Singh + the (Lahore) Singh Sabha with a passion as they were revitalising the Sikh Panth.

Khem Bedi had his own competing Sanatan Sabha which claimed Sikhs were Hindu's. Khem Bedi was paid large sums by the British to undermine the Gurdwara Sudhar Lehar and the true Singh Sabha movement. The Arya Samaj and British paid him handsomely to strenghten anti-Gurmat practices in the Gurdwaras led by the Hindu Mahants. Wherever he went he used to openly preach that Sikhs were Hindus. He used verses from Bachittar Natak to force ordinary Sikhs (that only believed in accepting Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj) to think that the Gurus were descendents of Hindu King Ram Chandra's children as Bedi's + Sodhi's. He claimed that the Aad Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is the fifth veda of the Hindus + that Sikhs should revere the Vedas of the Hindu's as, according to him, our Guru Sahiban did so in their previous lives, as claimed in the same text.

He was widely disliked by the Sikh Panth, but on the back of the finances from the British and his wealthy Arya Samaj friends, he set up a Sodhak Committee in 1897 of his hand picked people, to consolidate 32 wildly different versions of the Bachittar Natak which had been introduced into Punjab from Bengal via Hindu Mahants to whom the British supplied drugs like opium and prostitutes between 1875 and 1900. It was Khem Bedi who personally decided that Benti Chaupai was best positioned next to Triya Charitar on the advice of Arya Samaj friends.

Khem Bedi's two sons Kartar and Gurbaksh also merit mention as they were staunch opponents of Bhai Kartar Singh Jhabbar, Jathedar Tehal Singh and Bhai Lachman Singh who sought to liberate Sri Nankana Sahib from Hindu Mahants who were introducing prostitutes and other anti-Gurmat practices into our Gurdwara's just like how the Muslim Massa Ranghar had done in earlier times. Kartar Bedi was a staunch supporter of the Hindu Mahant Narain Das who murdered 130 Sikhs at Sri Nankana Sahib in 1921.

During 84 riots, the thousands of Hindus who were rioting against Sikhs were not Brahmins and Khatris,

Jonny Veerji many of the organisers supplying the kerosene to kill Sikhs were Khatri's, Jatts, Arora's, Bania's, Brahmins and also Jain factory owners that had corrupt links with Indira Gandhi.

but mostly poor and illiterate people belonging to low castes.

Veerji the Hindu Jatts of Delhi Police and Haryana villages were not poor and illiterate but murdered Sikhs purely due to the criminal nexus they had with Congress and the financial rewards they got from it.

Look up how the Jatt billionaire behind DLF looked after Rajiv Gandhi and how even now in 2013 Priyanka and Rahul are looked after by the Hindu Jatt multi-billion construction company DLF that created Gurgaon.

In 1947, when Muslims attacked Sikhs, the man power came mostly from so called low castes.

Not so in eastern Punjab Jonny Veerji. Remember the census statistics show the Muslims had the highest percentage of upper castes.

The main 5 Muslim castes that fought against Sikhs were all Zamindars mainly Muslim Jatts, Rajputs, Arain-Kamboh-Saini's, Gujjars and Awan-Rajputs

These five Muslim Zamindar castes had a dream that Pakistan would stretch to Delhi where Sikhs would serve these Muslims as slaves.

Luckily the Sikh Panth managed to defend itself in eastern Punjab where our numbers where not too far below the Muslims.

But overall these five Muslim Zamindar castes did exceedingly well out of Partition as they gained a lot more land at the expense of innocent Sikhs killed in Pakistan

These five Muslim Zamindar biraderi's consider themselves higher castes due to their ownership of land but it is only because of their Hindu origins that the Qureshi and Mughal castes consider them as low castes of Hindu's whom the Qureshi's and Mughals enslaved.

I am not saying low castes are bad, but sadly they can get easily manipulated by higher castes who lead them into riots.

Veerji these Muslim Jatts, Rajputs, Arains, Gujjars and Awans commenced and led their planned Genocide against Sikhs in eastern Punjab but only failed because no power on the planet ... not India ... nor America ... nor China ... can match the Sikh Panth one on one in an equal fight with equal weaponry. Obviously the Genocide of Sikhs succeeded in Pakistan where 25% of the Sikh Panth was killed and the remainder ethnically cleansed in Nazi fashion.

Secondly, if you go to Punjab today, many Muslim Gujjars have migrated to Punjab from J&K.

Jonny Veerji the people you refer to are actually Jammu Bakarwals who are related to the Gujjar Zamindars of Pakistan but a peg down in the social order.

They are a very manly and brave people.

The Kashmiri Muslim rebellion against India is primarily led by Kashmiri Muslim Brahmin intellectuals like Mohammad Allama Iqbal. The Gujjars and Bakarwals have stayed out of the fray on that more as their traditional opponents the Mirpuri Muslim Jatts are not likely to give the Bakarwals the 10% reservation in jobs that India gives them. This was as a result of the millions of Hindu Gujjars around Delhi and Rajasthan succeeding in getting backward caste status (despite the fact the fact that a Hindu Gujjar dynasty ruled over India in the past as can be seen in so many Pakistani Punjabi place names). Obviously Badal is now trying to get Jatts backward caste as well even though the Hindu classification of Jatts as Shudra's was hardly relavant in Punjab.

They are very religious Kattar type Muslims unlike the watered down migrant Muslims from UP/Bihar

Not so as explained above Veerji. However the Gujjars of Uttar Pradesh particularly from Barelvi area are very much rabid in their Islam like Punjabi Muslim Gujjars and these are the kattar types that are infiltrating Punjab that I believe you were referring to Veerji.

I am not saying it is Muslims.

True, just because the man on SinghSoorma Veer's video has a shaved upper lip it isn't conclusive that UP Muslims are behind this but it is a big clue.

Will the Suleh in Pakistan allow the families of the Hindu/Sikh converts to Islam in 47 to revert back to their original faiths?

There you go.

SikhKosh Veerji as usual you're 100% correct. But you know what, there were no Muslims forcibly converted to Sikhi. My father's village was controlled by these so-called high caste Muslim farmers and when they voted for Punjab to be part of Pakistan they automatically assumed they would rule over us Sikhs even in Doaba, Malwa and Majha districts. Obviously the Punjabi Muslims miscalculated in eastern Punjab as Sikhs are not scared of nobody one on one. But amidst everything that went down not a single Muslim Jatt, Muslim Rajput or Muslim Arain Kamboh was forcibly converted to Sikhi. Those Muslims in east Punjab also wanted to rule over Sikhs. But despite initiating violence they couldn't manage it wherever our population matched theirs and then they saw the light + left where their Moses (Muhammad Ali Jinnah) wanted to take them. In east Punjab every Muslim found that Rangrehte Guru ke Bete as those were the Sikhs the Muslims despised the most. And we need to educate the Punjabi Christians in Pakistan about this instead of having our people turn to these false Abrahamic lies.

Of course there were isolated converts from Islam to Sikhi who freely did so in full conviction because they no longer faced the punishment that Prophet Muhammad decreed for leaving Islam (=killing ex-Muslims that leave Islam) and embraced Sikhi in the knowledge that the Muslim community could no longer kill them for becoming Sikh. Bhai Gurmohinder Singh is a famous Muslim convert to Sikhi from 1947 and has bought several Muslims into Sikhi via his knowledge of Gurbani and spreading awareness amongst Malerkotla Muslims that Bhai Mardana Ji was the first Sikh and that Sikhi is for Sarbat Da Bhalla.

LOL what bullox loads of muslims remained in india without converting, there are more muslims in india then the whole population of pakistan.

I think these poor sikh families must have been in need of medicine, sikhs don't provide free medications or some free medical facility as most other religions seem to be doing in india and the sikh gurus used to do the tradition has died amongst us.

You're totally right Dalbir Singh Ji. Malerkotla to this day is majority Muslim. The Muslim Zamindars had a dream that they would rule over Sikhs in the Pakistan they voted for. When they realised that Islamic dream wasn't going to happen in eastern Punjab, where Sikhs were capable of defending ourselves wherever we had reasonable numbers to match the Muslims, they left to live in an Islamic state rather than be polluted by living amongst kaffirs.

It's very sad that these poor Sikh farmers suffering from cancer (as a result of GOI-related uranium poisoning) have been forced to convert for operations+treatment by Muhammad Alam of Indira Gandhi's Black Cats, whilst the main Sikh religious leadership are more focussed on gay marriages, Kumbh Mela, Sri Chand + Triya Charitar as the main subjects to ponder.

No wonder they won't launch a Dharam Yudh Morcha against drugs, alcohol, biraderi, abortion + illiteracy nowadays.

You have to wait and let it happen as you wisen up.

Don't be under the impression that all courtships involve sexual relations !!

I have been married to my true love for 16 years now and after so many years we actually feel 'spiritual' love- this is difficult to explain if you haven't experienced it.

We were not arranged and we dated for over a year before we got married. AND believe me, there was NO sexual relations to any degree.. No way !!

We are both in the same age group and both born and raised in UK as quite modern Punjabis.

I think that the youger lot watch or are influenced by too much Bollywood, And this is real bad. Personally, I don't even have any of the channels and keep my kids away from that rubbish.

Lucky Veerji i totally agree with you. This is the point that I believe Dalbir Singh Veerji was also making ... that it is possible to get to know someone (with a view to deciding upon marriage) without any physical relations taking place. To read that u been happily married for 16years is just awesome. You and Proactive Veerji are two of the wise elders of the forum that the rest of us can learn a lot from and I certainly have reading your posts.

I don't think you can quantify it, for some one meeting is enough for engagement in arranged marriages. I would say at least 6 months but it depends how much time you get to spend to actually know the person you might know them sooner or later, before you commit for life.

Even a chaperoned date is still courtship if the girls parents sit in between or boys or mutual. I don't think people should jump straight into engagements it can be a mistake if you don't know the person well enough. Some people don't have the time, I think you should make some time before you commit your life away to a stranger, that goes for both guys and girls.

I totally agree with you Dalbir Singh Ji. This concept that people cannot try to understand the spiritual level of their prospective future spouse is something that surprises me - particularly given that Sikhs are not meant to engage in physical relations before marriage (which we all agree is as per Gurmat). As you rightly say, even a chaperoned date is nevertheless a form of courtship and as we all know even arranged marriages in India involve courtship prior to the marriage nowadays. I genuinely am confused as to how two Sikhs in the Diaspora in the modern age would marry for sensible reasons without getting to know a bit about the other (obviously within the boundary of not engaging in any physical relations prior to marriage).

for me its plain and simple Sant Jarnail Singh JI Khalsa is the Greatest Sikh in modern times

Agreed in the modern era in terms of devout dedication to Sikhi Sant Ji was one of the greatest Gursikhs in modern times. However, one can think that and respectfully disagree with the political approach taken by Sant Ji in dealing with Congress - as we see that Congress successfully achieved every objective they wanted to in 1977-1997 and used Damdami Taksal in the 1980 elections.

Longowala is a traitor and a coward and died a dogs death

I think it's truly sad that you genuinely feel that way Veerji but hey you have a right to your opinion.

I've outined why I disagree with your assessment.

for me the gursikhs who fought in Dharam Yuodh are my brothers and sisters,

For me I would classify myself as not even equal to the dust below the feet of our Panth's shaheeds since Indira Gandhi started her Genocide of the Sikhs.

To count ourself as true siblings of our Shaheeds and Panth sewaks and Dharmi fauji's we need to have the level of self-sacrifice and dedication to Sarbat Da Bhalla that Bhai Rajoana Ji and other great Gursikhs have shown.

Khalistan Zindabad

Sloganeering never achieves nothing. When Sant Ji never asked for Khalistan but others who sought to undermine him did in 1980 ... they did so on behalf of Congress, simply to try stop the Akali push under Longowal Ji for the Anandpur Sahib resolution. 30 years of Nagar Kirtans with the same slogans yet we can't do what's needed at the ground level, in terms of community seva which Longowal Ji did so effectively and undeniably. Which is why the people called him Sant Longowal and lakhs bravely attended his funeral.

All of us need to stamp out drugs, alcohol, abortion clinics, birderi and illiteracy in Punjab if we care about our Panth.

You agree that an oath before Maharaj cannot be broken, so how can you say Longowal was following Gurmat?

Because politics is never as black and white as you perceive it to be Veerji. My reading of it in retrospect is that Longowal Ji knew that the accord was merely a ceasefire signed by him to avert the Genocide of Sikh naujawaan he clearly saw coming after the events of 1984 and prior to the accord. Nowhere did he give up or surrender his burning desire for the implementation of the Anandpur Sahib Resolution. I truly believe that Longowal thought he could buy the Qaum time to recover from the shock of 1984 and that with the Unity we had we could re-build to obtain the Anandpur Sahib resolution if the judgements did not come our way.

Gurmat means the person is following the teachings of the Guru and stands by the oath.

Gurmat is far greater than simply following teachings (which have different interpretations according to one's political and spiritual perspective) Veerji. One of Gurmat's fundamental essential components is saving the lives of the innocents. Quite clearly, that was Longowal Ji's aim. To this day none of Sant Longowal's detractors have ever said he took a single rupee in his life - because he never did. He was 100% Sikh to the core.

Longowal walked out with his hands up and did not even fight to protect the Sanctity of Sri Akal Takht and Sri Harmandir Sahib.

Veerji Longowal walked out in order to negotiate an end to the crisis + encirclement of Sri Harmandir Sahib by Indira Gandhi's forces.

It is politically naive, in the extreme, for young Sikhs in the Diaspora to not grasp that politics doesn't run that way and it's part of the reason Indira Gandhi succeeded with her aim in June 1984. Because we Sikhs were politically too predictable due to literally the black and white interpretations drawn.

He sat in a room and waited till the firing stopped to come out as a coward.

Did Longowal and Tohra go inside brandishing AK47's? These were elected politicians Veerji. Can Jagdeep Singh MPP stroll into Rexdale Gurdwara with an AK47 even if he wanted to? Do you think they would not fight if they had to? I firmly believe they would, were they armed in the first instance, and that they had every desire to resolve the crisis without further bloodshed. Longowal and Tohra were never cowards. If Jagdeep Singh walks out of Malton Gurdwara when the RCMP have it surrounded would you call him a coward or would you accept that he is serving the Panth as a politician and that negotiation to avoid further bloodshed is not an indication of cowardise but of realism.

You call Nihang Singhs cowards and call Longowal a hero! This shows your bias.

I have never once said anything of the sort about our Panth's Nihang Singhs! Can you show me a single sentence where Veerji? But no I don't respect alcohol and bhang addicted Nangs and I make no apology for having zero respect for Ajit Sin and Santa Sin and their like. Longowal was 100% for Sikhi till the day he died. Santa Sin openly accepted money from Indira Gandhi and Ajit Sin was a Nang who got what he deserved.

Nihang Singhs fought right beside Sant ji

Please show me where I criticise sincere Nihang Singhs Veerji (because I don't).

and atleast Santa Singh wanted to take out the Nirankaris after they killed 13 Sikhs.

Do u know why Santa Sin wanted to do that? To help Indira Gandhi paint Sikhs as the bad guys and strengthen the Narkdhari diversion tactics used by Indira in order to weaken the Akali Dal as her political opponents. 30 years prior to the murder of our brave AKJ shaheeds the equivalent of if 7million had been killed today had occurred in the Pakistani Genocide of Sikhs. Potentially if we have a flare-up with the Radha Swami's given past history we are capable of forgetting about 1984 and focussing on the Dhillon family's business empire. So what would have been the clever way round it in 1978? Proclaiming to the world that we going to kill the enemy dog so-called living Guru (that himself was a dog stroked by Congress money) or taking the enemy out cold and simple without any frivolous talk surrounding it regarding gold etc? Gursikhs don't need financial motivation to deliver justice.

Sant ji had a different way to handle it than Santa Singh and the latter took an offence to it.

Sant Ji was a sincere Gurmukh. Santa Sin was Indira Gandhi's snitch who shouldn't be associated with Guru ki Ladli Fauj.

Nevertheless Nihang Singhs still stood beside Sant ji and fought to protect Sri Akal Takht Sahib.

I have every respect for each and every one of our shaheeds. Under attack, we only have one jathebandi - the Khalsa Panth.

It should be the case of simply one united Qaum (regardless of jathebandi/samparda/political persuasion) all of the time.

In Sikhi their is no politics without spirituality. Anandpur Sahib Resolution started because Satguru has blessed everyone with equal rights. Miri and Piri cannot be separated and are not separated. Before starting anything involving Miri Satguru did Ardas and took an Hukamnama. Which clearly shows Sikh politics and spirituality are tied into each other. Lastly Sikh politics cannot go against the spiritual teachings of Satguru.

I 100% agree with the above paragraph Veerji. However, in an era in which no Gursikh has faced down 125,000 individually we need to get realistic and understand that politics is not a one way street. All Sikh demands in India, Canada, UK or elsewhere will never be met automatically or immediately. There has to be a degree of reality built into our mentality to allow for political delays and short term compromises to achieve the goals our Panth sets for Sarbath Da Bhalla. Let's just remember here that for every Sikh in the World there are more than 250 non-Sikhs. I don't believe Sant Longowal went against Gurmat by signing a ceasefire with the terrorist GOI in order to try prevent the Genocide of a whole generation of Sikh naujawaan.

in garb of sikh bana, gov't obviously heavily infiltrated within all sikh groups.

Agreed Veerji. Santa Sin openly worked for Congress doing his bank account's seva. Damdami Taksal campaigned for Congress in the 1980 general elections and facilitated terrorist Indira Gandhi to become Prime Minister in 1980. Barnala and Badal everyone knows what they are all about. What's clear is that Indira had her dogs infiltrating every one of our groups. So when one group thinks it acts holier than another or thinks it has divine right to guide the Panth without the consensus of Sarbat Khalsa then that's a recipe for disaster. We are all one Qaum ... jathebandi, samparda, political affiliation have no real meaning without the united actions by all of us with different opinions within the diversity of the Panth standing shoulder to shoulder and fighting down drugs, alcohol, illiteracy, abortion and biraderi amongst some of the Genocidal problems facing our Qaum right here right now.

To that end, I would request all respected Veers on this thread to add your support on the dgp alam conversion thread to get books out to educate the poor kids back in Punjab via Khalsa Aid's Punjab Underprivileged Rural Empowerment program.

http://focuspunjab.org/pure.html

As your elder veer I suggest you to wait and find out once your time comes :D

Ok Veerji but I don't think in 2013 we can expect everyone outside of India to get an arranged marriage.

And there is a disturbing correlation between arranged marriage and biraderi.

For example some cultures marry their cousins purely to keep their so-called caste's "purity".

Even via the arranged marriaged route in India i think it is rare to arrive at marriage without courtship nowadays (non-sexual).

^Mehtab Veerji then how did u get married? I ask that respectfully as your younger Veer.

How long is the time limit of being able to get to know someone on a purely conversational level prior to marriage?

In Diya's case I believe that the fault was the guy's but Dalbir Singh Ji is taking about without any physical intimacy taking place.

When I click on the donate button from PURE's site, it takes me to the same page as khalsa aid's donate page. It makes no indication of which purpose one would like their money to go to. It doesn't seem 100% ringfenced to me. It looks like the donated money will go to a large pool of money from where it will get evenly distributed to all there projects of which PURE is one along with money going to Libya and their other international projects. From where do you get this information that money given to khalsa aid will only be used by PURE?

Veerji i distinctly remember Ravinder Singh Ji (the Gursikh in the youtube videos) expressly saying that Focus Punjab literally was solely for Punjab (due to public demand). However, as I agree with yourself and proactive Veerji that we as forum Sangat would like this to be for children's education only then you can if you wish contact the charity directly for confirmation.

Their number is UK 0044(1753)567457 or info@khalsaaid.org

Instead of donating them to direct, which is still great, the idea on this thread was if we can set up a "total raised" counter on this thread or the site generally so that we can know how much we the forum Sangat collectively raised but whatever achieves the target is all good.

I'm told that once the ADMIN has finished organising the Dasam Granth Conference hopefully this initiative will get priority.

How does the funding to Khalsa aid work? if one wants their money to go directly to this noble project of educating and helping poor Sikh children, is that where it will go or will the money go to their larger pool of funds where it will then get evenly distributed to their various projects like sending money to Libya? Because I would rather that the money I send go directly to these poor Sikh children.

Veerji the Focus Punjab "PURE" program "Punjab Underprivileged Rural Empowerment" Project is 100% ringfenced to help the poor children back in Punjab and does not go to a central pool such as the humanitarian efforts Khalsa Aid have participated in outside of Punjab.

Theoretically, if all us of Sangat on this forum do the best we can ... we could make a million dollar plus contribution.

If we want Sarbath Da Bhalla, we need to be in a strong position ourselves, in order to have the committed male+female Gursikh manpower in order to bring about that global change for a peaceful world of justice and equality that we do Ardas for.

http://focuspunjab.org/pure.html

Can you disregard a oath made before Satguru Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji Maharaj?

Veerji the straightforward answer, speaking for myself, is NO.

But in the field of politics it is naive if one interprets a ceasefire to avert the Genocide of Sikhs as being anti-Sikh in any way.

u know what aman..that's the reason i feel so hurt and betrayed. it doesnt make sense from a cultural point of view either. i know people who r dating guys on the sly cause if their families found out wud hit the fan..but his family knew all along...and then they discard me?

Diya the father and son seem to be a disgrace. They are not Sikhs.

Everyone on this forum is hurting for you and sad about your mistreatment.

like how much fun did the father want him to have? if it was a day or a week or a few months or something i wudn't feel so torn. i gave this guy 2 years of my life.

Diya you are young and if you believe in God and that you are not inferior to any man out there then you will find happiness in the future that will last a lifetime.

believe it or not, he spoke about marriage and kids first. i didn't even bring it up until after. he called me wifey in front of all his friends. he even told me our kids names.

For him to say all that and in the end leave it in tatters is an evil sin that he will pay the price for. I'm sure his mother and sisters are utterly disgusted with him and how cruelly he has treated you. But you are better off without him.

i'm so confused. i feel like i'm being punished or something... like the family had a personal vendetta against me cause of my religion.

Not at all. Don't believe that for a second. Sikhs don't think like that. Study true Sikhi and you will see that Sikhs are not allowed to ever do such things. It might be encouraged by Imams in Mosques in the UK but no Sikh will ever support anything as evil as this.

i'll go with option 1 as I don't think i want to be around his family again or pursue him and be humiliated again. i get this horrible feeling in my gut now when i imagine being with him. i hate his family. he told me his parents want to have a lavish big wedding for him and invite the whose who of the city...and that if he married me it wud be a small shameful wedding... i guess he can a lavish wedding now.

Sadly Diya this scenario happens too often amongst people from the sub-continent. He will never get a girl like you, who would have become Sikh for him. Maybe he will only realise his mistake if he sees you happily married with a true Sikh in the future.

The crazy thing is that he was never a Sikh in the first place. It's a shame that the person you thought was Sikh, in actual fact was not.

Bhai Mardana Ji is an example of a true Sikh. He was the first Sikh in history and was born to Muslim parents just like you.

one of my sikh friends told me that even if i converted i wud never really be considered equal.

That's not true Diya. My Aunt in Vancouver was from a Muslim background before coming to Sikhi through marriage. The whole extended family loves her more than anything because we all respect the risks she took to marry my Uncle. If you would like someone who understands your background to talk to then email the mods on this site and I will likewise provide my Aunt's contact details so that she can support you in getting stronger emotionally.

Failing that, join this site as a member and you will notice how the whole forum will rally round to support in any issues you face.

.i'd always be considered an outsider cause there are already lots of divisions such as caste within the community...

Caste is followed by people who are not Sikh. Sikhs do not believe in caste and totally oppose caste system or any type of inequality based on race or gender. In 1699 Guru Gobind Singh Ji delivered the biggest blow to the caste system it had ever seen.

anyways i'd just like to say thanks times a million for understanding. i was starting to feel even worse after people started being judgmental and accused me of being fake. i have alot of sikh friends, but i just don't feel comfortable pouring my heart out to anyone at this stage...thats why i came to an anonymous forum.

Join the forum Diya and you will feel a lot better. My Aunt is there to support you should you feel like taking up the offer.

I personally feel so bad that this dog has treated like you this. Remember you are not even a Muslim. Just because you were a born into a Muslim family doesn't make you Muslim. I bet you believe in male and female equality and probably don't respect the support for slavery in the Quran. Similarly, people are not Sikh on account of the family they are born into. You can only be Sikh on account of your positive and kind actions. I'm not a good Sikh and very possibly you sound like a better Sikh than me in terms of your loving nature. So all the best and stay strong. We're here to help you if you need.

dont need to waste my time on this u calling ppl who did seva for the quam with the label sin, u respect ppl who back stabbed the panth and ppl like Bhai Gian Singh Ji who served 14 years in prision as a congressi reminds me off the ppl that called Santji a congressi. Bhai Gian Singh was not on death row he served his life sentence and was freed.

Singh1894 Veerji don't you see how suspicious it is that an innocent Gursikh like Professor Bhullar is on death row but Gian Sin who eliminated Sant Longowal for Congress got out so quickly for Sant Longowal's murder? And now he even has a large kothi in his pind paid for by Congress as a reward for his assistance, while true Panth sewaks like Bhai Rajoana are on death row.

your bias again the Damdami Taksaal is clear

Given that they supported Congress and Indira win the 1980 general elections you can't even call reacting to such a disgrace as bias.

and when i said ppl are trying to make Santji into a uneducated normal person you are one yourself.

Sant Ji was far from normal. Sant Ji was a great Gursikh whose commitment to Sikhi is undoubted.

But were his political calculations always correct?

The answer to that is clearly no, as 1977-1984 Congress was the only winner against the Sikh Panth.

For me Santji is a true Gursikh Warrior, the Brahamgyani that lead the Sikhs to Glory in the Battle field,

For me Sant Ji is a great shaheed of the Panth but that Congress used and duped Damdami Taksal so that Indira Gandhi could win in the 1980 general elections and to oppose the Akali demand Anandpur Sahib Resolution implementation cannot be ignored.

as for dhumaa and party is have no time for ppl like that.

Glad we agree on something Veerji.

make the whole 1984 issues of a miscalculation and a episode we should not have gone down,

Only Congress were happy with what went down in 1984

I strongly believe that Damdami Taksal, whether knowingly or unknowingly, left our Qaum further away from freedom with the agenda they pursued since 1977.

the ASR and akalis were no where and no one was interested in it. only till Santji started the DYM and the akalis joined in that they got some support.

Agreed players in Damdami Taksal did not care about ASR. It was only when Sant Ji backed Longowal that they reluctantly got on the bandwagon.

i say the Panth won in the struggle

I respectfully disagree Veerji and I strongly believe that the Panth is more asleep now than it ever was in 1980 when Damdami Taksal supported Congress.

the killer of sikhs longowala

Sant Longowal did not kill any Sikhs. He sacrificed his own life to avert the Genocide of Sikhs that was worst between 1985-1995.

longowala was a traitor and history shows us this

History conclusively shows that Sant Longowal dedicated his whole life to the Panth, community service, Sri Damdama Sahib and Bhai Mani Singh's legacy.

Those that accuse Sant Longowal of being a traitor, more often not, do so to deflect attention away from Damdami Taksal support for Congress in 1980 elections.

Nimani Ji daas will do Ardas for your Mother and whole family.

The other thing the rest of us Sikhs can do in addition to prayers, given that cancer is so prevalent in rural Punjab, but also exists throughout the world is try to raise as much money as we can for cancer charities to fight it and help all sufferers.

It seems that the idea of sending money to pay for books to educate poor Sikh children has lost some momentum so please can you add your name below on the thread to request that Admin (sikhsangat@live.com) set this up with Khalsa Aid's Focus Punjab Rural Empowerment project.

http://www.focuspunjab.org/pure.html

The rumour about Sant Jee being a 'congress agent' was started by Longowal and the Akali's, who resented the impact that Sant Jee had on the masses.

ComradzSingh Veerji, when Damdami Taksal campaigned for Indira Gandhi and Congress in the 1980 general elections, what else would you expect those that campaigned for the Anandpur Sahib Resolution to say? When Damdami Taksal realised that Indira Gandhi and Zail Sin had used them and duped them in 1980, Longowal and Sant Ji later started working in tandem for the Sikh Panth (with sincere respect for one another) and let bygone's be bygone's.

However none of Sant Jee's actions or words have given any substance to this rumour.

Sant Ji was not really to blame for the disgrace of Damdami Taksal support for Congress in 1980. The main fault lay with players within Damdami Taksal who actively conspired with Zail Sin to oppose the Akali's and thereby block the progress of the Anandpur Sahib Resolution that the Akali's were pressing for.

People nowadays who do not like or understand what Sant Jee stood for propagate this myth to give comfort to their over inflated ego's.

When Damdami Taksal supported Congress in the 1980 general elections, Longowal Sahib rightly opposed DDT on that but nobody could accuse Sant Ji of being a Congress agent in 1984 when Sant Ji bravely sacrificed their life to defend our Qaum and innocent pilgrims from the evil terrorist Indira Gandhi.

Pyare Veer Onlyfive Ji

Gurmat does not order to disregard the ardas (oath as you say) Longowal did before Maharaj.

Oath was used in the case of the analogy Veerji. Nowhere does Gurmat say that in politics once a course of action is decided to simply continue blindly ahead, if so doing will cause greater damage to the Sikh Panth and innocents.

You have not read Zafarnamna.

As above Veerji, Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj were the embodiment of truth and dedicating their life towards justice, so quite clearly Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj never went back on their word. However, if in the field of politics, adjustments cannot made according to changing circumstances in order to save the lives of innocent members of the Sikh Panth, then that means that pride and ego have become more important than dedication to Gurmat and the Sikh Panth's long term interests.

Bhai Mani Singh could have saved many Sikhs by just saying once he is a Muslim, mothers could have saved their small childs lives if they said in one split second that they were Muslims. But listening to Satguru's teachings they never backed down and told them straight that they are sticking to their oath of giving their head to Satguru as Sikhs.

I 100% agree but this is an irrelavant example as in the quest for implementation for the Anandpur Sahib Resolution that Sant Longowal led the campaign for prior to Sant Ji, nowhere was there a challenge to Sikh Panth’s existence on the scale the Islamic Empire inflicted. More than half of the Panth were not killed by Congress and Congress did not force people to convert to Hinduism or die, so using the example of Bhai Mani Singh Ji is not relavant in this example. Ironically, if anyone understood the supreme sacrifice of Bhai Mani Singh’s shaheedi it was Longowal Ji who did so much in Bhai Mani Singh Ji’s ancestral village of Longowal.

The Akalis are the true congress agents who were in bed with congress.

Simply not true in 1980 Veerji. The Akali’s of 1980 fought tooth and nail to prevent Indira Gandhi’s return to power at Delhi in the 1980 general elections. Damdami Taksal openly assisted and supported Indira Gandhi in the 1980 general elections. So it’s rich for historical revisionists who see 1977-1997 as a victory for the Panth to then blame the Akali’s of 1980 for being in bed with Congress when the evidence is 100% conclusively to the contrary.

Akalis invited congress to their homes, gave them hospitality, and Akalis openly went to congress homes.

If Jagdeep Singh of the NDP visits Stephen Harper’s residence in order to progress the interests of the Sikh Panth it doesn’t mean he’s “in bed with him”.

Sant Baba Jarnail Singh ji Khalsa was in the way of the Akalis

Agreed.

This was the Zail Sin agenda in 1980 when Indira Gandhi swept to power in the election with Damdami Taksal support.

and so he was in the way of congress.

Agreed. As Sant Ji realised after 1980 that the advice players in Damdami Taksal had given him in 1980 was wrong and Longowal Sahib was right, Sant Ji realised that Congress were the biggest enemy of the Panth and not the Akali Dal. Hence why Sant Ji and Longowal Sahib operated in tandem to unitedly advance the interests of the Sikh Panth when Damdami Taksal realised that Indira Gandhi and Zail Sin had used them and duped them in 1980 purely to oppose the Akali demand for Anandpur Sahib resolution.

The Akalis and congress had one common enemy.

You make no reference to the year here, which is a crucial omission. In 1980 Damdami Taksal and Congress had one common enemy = The Akali’s. In 1982 Sant Ji and Longowal Sahib had a common opponent = Indira Gandhi. After the shaheedian of Sant Ji and Longowal Sahib and Barnala’s assumption of Akali leadership, only then can you say that the motivation of the Akali’s seems to have resolved solely around power rather than actively pushing the true interests of the Sikh Panth forward.

Sant ji goes and both parties win, which is openly seen today.

See above. When Sant Ji and Longowal Sahib are both eliminated by Congress, then yes we eventually see two parties that have no real agenda in pushing the equitable development of Punjab forward but are more interested in lining their own pockets in many cases.

Did the Akalis know Indira was going to slaughter those many Sikhs...........I don't think so,

Veerji I don’t think anyone could imagine the true evil terrorist extent of what Congress would do to the Sikhs in 1984. However, once so many thousands of pilgrims and sovereign Sikhs were brutally killed in 1984 for being present at Harmandir Sahib on Guru Arjan Dev Ji Maharaj ka Shaheedi Diwas and the subsequent November 1984 Genocide of Sikhs the writing was absolutely clear on the wall. Congress intended on the wholesale Genocide of Sikhs. That is why Longowal Sahib saw fit to sign a ceasefire (accord). I don’t agree with that accord myself but I fully respect the reasons why he signed it in those dark circumstances. I truly believe that he signed to try and avert the cold-blooded Genocide of over 150,000 innocent Sikh naujawaans in the subsequent 10years.

but Akalis at the end viewed it as collateral damage for getting what they wanted.

In the case of Badal and Barnala, I’m inclined to agree with you. Sant Longowal’s record of dedication to the Panth is there for all to see in multiple villages across Malwa. He never took any bribes, a fact accepted by opponents even today. He actively served the interests of the Panth at ground level and at Damdama Sahib in the best way he knew how and cannot be compared to the likes of Badal and Barnala who openly sold out the Panth's interests for their own personal gain.

Satguru Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji Maharaj lost his whole family in battling for justice and never once did he say I will break my oath to save lives. Gurmat is to stand up for truth and follow Hukam. If today no one stands up for justice, then tomorrow their will be four folds more of oppression. Satguru along with SIkhs like Bhai Mani Singh knew that oppressors never stop until either you are dead or made a slave. And Satguru says death is more sweet that being a slave.

I totally agree. There is no disagreement on that. However, it’s plain for anyone who truly wishes to see that the accord signed by Longowal with Rajiv (if interpreted as a ceasefire) would have saved the Genocide of a whole generation of young Sikh men on the huge scale Congress had planned and implemented with their foot soldiers.

Because of the Akalis today the Sikhs are slaves.

I disagree that Longowal Sahib campaigning for the Anandpur Sahib Resolution made us slaves.

Had Damdami Taksal not supported Indira Gandhi in the 1980 general elections, Sikhs could have avoided slavery.

Whether Sant ji took up the sword or not Congress would have slaughtered Sikhs in whatever way they saw best. Sant ji kept it peaceful, but congress continued to slaughter Sikhs without a care. After the 13 Sikhs were killed Sant ji still kept it peaceful and said lets take this to the pen by going through the court system. It was only after the boiling point did Sant ji tell the Sikhs to pick up the swords.

There’s no argument on the above Veerji. Sant Ji was not a terrorist. Indira Gandhi and Congress and her Alam Sena Black Cats were the only the terrorists between 1977-1997. But I respectfully request you to look over history of that period and see whether you think 1977-1997 was a wholescale defeat of the Sikh Panth and a total victory for the GOI terrorists in everything they wanted to achieve against Sikhs.

Look at it this way Veerji. In 1947, the Pakistani Genocide of Sikhs resulted in the death of 25% of the Sikhs there. 30 years later our Qaum’s attention span had forgotten the Genocide of the equivalent of 7million Sikhs around today (in 1947 by Muslims) but had become more focused with Gurbachana’s murder of 13 Amritdhari Gursikhs on behalf of Indira Gandhi ... yet only two years later in 1980 Damdami Taksal supported the very same party that funded the murder of our brave AKJ shaheeds for reasons best known to them.

Let’s say that today is almost 30years after 1984. To all intents and purposes, Sikhs forgot about the Genocide of 25% of the Sikh Panth in Pakistan in 1947 at the hands of Punjabi Muslims. So if tomorrow, Sikhs forgot all about 1984 and started to see the Congress-supported Radha Swami’s as the number one threat to our Panth when drugs, alcohol, illiteracy, biraderi and abortion clinics abound, would you have any respect for an organisation that opposes the Radha Swami’s so that the GOI can present Sikhs as militant to the wider Hindutva support base but encourages Sikhs to vote Congress in the 2014 General Elections?

A long way of saying it but if Sant Baba Ranjit Singh Dhadrianwale or Sant Baba Baljit Singh Daduwal ever advised the Panth to vote Congress in the 2014 general elections, their organisations would never retain any respect 30 years into the future. It surprises me Dhumma and his cohorts have any support base today given the actions of Damdami Taksal in supporting Indira Gandhi in the 1980 general elections.

isingh1699 paji i cant spell it out for you. You seem to have a soft spot for the akalis

Yes Veerji i do not regard the Akali Dal leadership that raised the Anandpur Sahib Resolution (long before DDT got involved) as being anti-Sikh in any way.

and are portraying Santji and the Damdami Taksaal as people who caused the blood shed

Not at all Veerji. I have never said that one bit. I am 100% clear that Indira Gandhi is solely responsible for everything. Read through everything I've written Veerji and you will see that not even 0.01% have I said that we the Sikh Panth are responsible for the Genocide that Congress inflicted upon us. I hope you can kindly retract what you say above Veerji.

who didnt know what was going to happen Santji know exactly what was going to happen he didnot shy away from the battle, u can justify anything and we can go around in circles, the truth is there for everyone to see.

Exactly, so what exactly was achieved by that course of action? Did the Sikh Panth win between 1977-1997 or did Congress successfully achieve each and every one of their anti-Sikh objectives by getting us to predictably make every move that they wanted us to make?

The answer truly is there for everyone to see. Are we in a stronger position since DDT's involvement with Congress in 1980 or is the Sikh Panth in a worse overall state?

Don't answer me - answer your conscience Veerji by looking at the state of the Qaum nowadays in terms of alcohol, drugs, biraderi, abortion and illiteracy and our Panth's immense suffering in the 20 years between 1977-1997.

Fact Santji and the Singhs/Singhnia fought for sikhi and stood up against injustice. the Akalis betrayed the Sikhs

We all agree that our Panth's Shaheeds deserve the greatest of respect for trying to defend the victims of Indira and Congress, however that does not translate that the Akali's betrayed the Panth. The Akali's who campaigned for Anandpur Sahib resolution and opposed Indira in 1980 general elections (while Damdami Taksal openly supported her in the 1980 elections) did not betray the Sikh in the era before Badal Dal.

longowala was a coward and by saying he was a man of vision and foresaw the holocaust and wanted to avoid it is just closing your eyes to the truth

With respect Veerji, that's very easy for you to say sitting in the West.

Longowal Ji led the campaign of civil disobedience, pushed the Anandpur Sahib Resolution and in the end gave his life for the Panth.

If Longowal Ji was a coward, we need more so-called cowards like that who don't take bribes, who dedicate their life to the Panth, who reinvigorate Damdama Sahib and who honour Bhai Mani Singh's legacy and who uplift various villages in Punjab and are called Sant by the people as a result of their service to the community.

,it was going to happen it was Vahegurus hukam that Santji would lead the struggle of liberation.

Indira Gandhi's attack on Harmadir Sahib was not Hukam and neither was the Genocide of Sikhs

Bhai Jarnail Singh Halwara killed longowala

No he didn't. That's what Congress claimed so that they could eliminate Bhai Jarnail Singh Halwara and continue their well-hatched plan to organise the Genocide of Sikhs by claiming that Sikhs themselves did not agree to the ceasefire (1985 accord).

FACT he took responsibility

No he didn't. Bhai Jarnail Singh Halwara is well known for never taking responsibility for serving justice to the Oppressors of Sikhs. Longowal was not an oppressor of Sikhs. Sant Longowal served the Panth throughout his life in the best way he knew how and that's why lakhs of people turned up at his funeral despite the Congress Black Cats threat attendees would be killed as traitors. Also Halwara pind is in Ludhiana district unlike the Sangrur district (Black Cat pro-Congress) operatives claimed in the book.

and Bhai Gian Singh Ji is living proof that they killed him and the reasons why.

Gian Sin is Congressi paid and the proof of that is that he was released for Longowal's murder but Professor Bhullar is still on death row.

Gian Sin wouldn't kill Rajiv or any of the 10,000 Congress-paid murderers walking around Delhi in 1985 but he could claim to murder Longowal for Congress! So that Congress could implement their plan for the Genocide of Sikhs at the level of murders they did worst between 1985-1995.

How can say Damdami Taksaal was employed by the government to weaken the akalis

When Damdami Taksal campaigned openly for Congress in the 1980 General Elections ... what other conclusion can be drawn other than Zail Sin successfully used DDT for Indira's victory in 1980. Damdami Taksal lost credibility in 1980 given that they campaigned for the party that funded Gurbachana. Only Sant Ji later redeemed the organisation the more he understood that Indira Gandhi was the real enemy rather than the Akali Dal.

thats a insult to the Santji

The openly known and admitted truth with respect to the 1980 general elections is not an insult of Sant Ji but yes it does show that we should never blindly assume that every political calculation made by our Panth's leaders is correct. It also exposes that blindly following DDT is not advised when Dhumma sits at Badal's feet like a servant.

and Gurujis Taksaal,

Badal Dal have no link to the original Babbar Akali's of the 1920's. Just because Guru Sahib initiated missionaries that doesn't mean they can claim a link to today.

Similarly Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj is the father of the entire Khalsa Panth and not just those samparda's which do not follow Akal Takht Rehat Maryada.

Baba Deep Singh Ji is a shaheed that belongs to the whole Panth. DDT never did much to free our Gurdwara's from Hindu Mahants in the 1920's

The bottom line is you believe that everything DDT did between 1977-1997 was correct and somehow strengthened the Panth.

I believe the Panth was systematically weakened in collective strength between 1977-1997 and I believe that Damdami Taksal campaigning for Indira Gandhi's victory in the 1980 general elections disqualifies people like Dhumma from ever mentioning Baba Deep Singh Ji's inspirational name. I wholeheartedly believe that the approach taken by DDT suited Congress perfectly and enabled Congress to accelerate their plans for the Genocide of the Sikh Panth. Sant Ji never asked for Khalistan. Players in the DDT mentioned Khalistan at Zail Sin's prompting in order to weaken the Akali push for Anandpur Sahib Resolution. By painting Sikhs as anti-national separatists and terrorists Congress succeeded in winning the Hindutva vote. Whether DDT did this knowingly or were successfully fooled into taking the positions Congress wanted them to take is debatable but the damage has already been done + we need to learn lessons from history on how to deal with our enemies better politically.

VJKK VJKF