JagsawSingh

I think the headline of this thread 'Man accused of cow slaughter stoned to death' is a bit misleading. The real truth is actually far worse and far more revealing as to the true bigoted state of Hindu India. Most of the headlines about this story relate the fact that this man was accused of 'eating beef'....i.e having beef in his fridge. Indeed the victim's own daughter testifies that the Hindu mob killed him because they thought the lamb they had in their fridge was beef.

Now think about that for a second. Think what kind of a sick twisted country India is: A man was beaten to death by an angry mob because he ate beef. After an international outcry the police finally arrested some people but since then the rest of the village have been rioting and demanding that the killers be released because, as you all know, apparently beating a man to death for eating beef is a good thing...not a bad thing. Welcome, to incredible India.

But it is strange that you were more keen to mention the girl's faults rather than her father.

And it's singhni miripiri.

Sorry about that. All this time and I can honestly say I'd never noticed the 'ni' at the end of the 'singh' in your username.

Anyway, the father's only got one real fault Now ordinarily we can forgive a man for having just the one fault but unfortunately his one fault is the mother of all faults, i.e brutal murder of your own blood. He would have been better off havng loads and loads of little faults like, perhaps, eating a bacon sandwich every now and then instead of jumping straight into the one big one. Thats why these types of murders are hard to prevent and predict. Your average murderer has loads of little faults such as heroin addiction, robbery etc and so is known to the authorities. Thus he is in the system and they can keep his murdering potential in check. But when you have a man with no faults at all, it is common for him to jump straight into the big murder fault without anyone or any authority being able to predict it. I suppose what I'm trying to say is that you should never trust a man with no little faults at all. Mine are that I like to be a condascending b*st**d towards people, judge people, make fun of people less intelligent than me (i.e all of you and, in a way, that highlights my condascending nature again) and eat copious amounts of aloo wale parathe. This is clearly a good thing because it means I am extremely unlikely to become a murderer. I already have my fair share of little faults. Although, I have to point out that some studies have shown that people that openly tell people that they're not murderers are actually far more likely to commit murder. And thats the scary thing; I had no thought of ever murdering someone but with a simple stroke of the keyboard I've instantly put myself in the 'most likely to commit murder' bracket. And thats the thing; Mr Khan had no intention of ever committing any illegal, immoral or unethical thing. But, Mr Khan was a victim of geography. He didn't ask to be born a Pakistani. Nature and fate just made it that way. But, as a Pakistani father of a teenage daughter who behaved in a way that brought shame onto Mr Khan among his peers, one could (wrongly) argue that Mr Khan only had 2 real choices :

1. Leave his job....sell his home....move 500 miles away to where no other Pakistanis knew him or.....
2. Kill his daughter

As for the girl, it has to be said that actions have consequences so you have to have a bit of common sense before embarking on little escapades. For example, whilst deep down I may wish to elope with an Italian sikh girl (and I am very fond of Italian sikh girls) I have enough intelligence to know that whilst I may desire it the consequence will very likely be my wife beating me upside the head with a belna and metal danda. In the same way, I can't help wondering what good consequences that girl though might come out of staying out nights on end having sex.

I'm very surprised at the lack of discretion and awareness of certain Islamic cultural issues on the part of the police officer who reported the daughter's crime to the father. You'd think he or she has read the newspaper or seen the news to realise there's quite a few cases where Muslim fathers have been known to kill their young daughters over matters such as these.

The cops get in touch with the parents and just blurt out, "Your girl's been caught nicking jonnies." That's just careless. Why not tell the parents she's been done for theft and leave the prophylactic tidbit out of the conversation? Very strange.

I agree. In essence, the policeman knocking on the father's door telling him "Your girl's been caught nicking jonnies." he might as well have said "Hello Mr Khan" "Isn't it about time you murdered your daughter" ?".

That poor girl's death sentence was more or less signed, sealed and delivered by that police officer. Inept policing, inpept and dishonest car making, I think the events of the past week show us that much of what we thought of as wonderfull and quality 'German' was actually an illusion. Its nice to know that deep down, under the false veneer, they're as rubbish and inept as the rest of us.

Really?! Do you think it's appropriate to pick on the faults of a dead child whose actions were nothing as bad as her father?! I wouldn't be surprised if many Sikhs think in the same way of that creep Muslim father even if they don't act on it.

I didn't say she should be brutally murdered SinghMiriPiri. I simply pointed out the fact that she was a very very naughty girl indeed.

The 'alcohol' has nothing to do wth it.

Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is our living Guru. For those of you here that think you're doing a good thing by suffocating our living Guru with harmful chemicals let me do this one thing to you:

Let me spray just one little squirt in the direction of your face and then you'll see how much it hurts your throat, interferes with your breathing, makes you feel nauseous.

Your're all educated people. Think before you do things. Think before you perform mindless rituals. Think how these rituals came about. Understand how uneducated men invented these rituals that serve no positive purpose and are actually in direct contradiction with Gurbani. In this example, Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji says that the air and environment is Waheguru and yet you people are such simpletons you think you're dsplaying your 'respect' for him by destroying him....i.e pumping harmful chemicals into the air (waheguru) ? :omg:

How Would You Treat A Muslim Guy Who Was Interested In Becoming A Sikh?

Well, that depends on his age etc. I mean everyone loves a treat but different people like different things. If it was a younger muslim then, I'd probably treat him with a day out in the park with perhaps an ice cream at the end of it. For the older muslim though, I suppose I would treat him to dinner at a fancy restaurant. I'd keep the treat simple though, I mean I wouldn't treat him to a gold watch or anything.

Dude Harper is pretty good on social issues.

Dude, you're clearly the sheikhyerbooty of Canada. Read the Canadia newpapers. Harper has, over the last 7 years, drasticaly cut domestic social spending on the less well off for the benefit of the rich.

If you don't think there's areas with Muslim gangs in Canada you clearly don't know much.

No dude. You clearly don't know how to read (perhaps indicative of Harper's education cuts in Canada ?). I'm the one who posted in reply to Ranjeet, telling him things are just as bad regarding Muslims in the north american continent as they are here.

Most UK Sikhs think of Canada they think of BC

No. Like most of the world, when we think of Canada the first thing that comes to mind is ice and polar bears, then Toronto because of mayor ford and then Montreal. Since when did you become an expert on our thoughts ?

Sikhs are not sparsely spread out in Canada. While some Sikhs may be unaware of the Uk problems, or think its exaggerated, a lot are also fully aware. Plus, I'm sure everyone knows Sikhs in Canada aren't a bunch of victims.

We're not a 'victim' in the UK either. There's clear divide here between the Sikhs in the south (London) who feel everything is fine and Sikhs up north and the miidlands who seem to be obsessed with muslim paranoia.

Do you mean Bradford has 40-50k Muslims or Coney Island? Coney island itself doesn't have 40,000+ residents.

I clearly mean the coney island avenue in Brooklyn that runs from flatbush to the amusement park. Obviously I do not mean the coney island avenue that connects mannigham to Leeds in west yorkshire. Muppet.

akalifauj were you west london singh on this forum?

Of course he wasn't. And I can say that with 100% certainty.

Jagraj Singh lost his cool and told a person to shut up. Jugraj Singh should have taken a lesson from Sri Guru Teg Bahadur Sahib ji on when to have a confrontation and when walking away is not a show of being a coward or show of weakness. Jugraj Singh is standing approximately 50 feet away from the Muslim who is preaching his religion. In the video both (Jugraj Singh and the Muslim) are shouting at the crowd to get attention. How effective is he in this instance to teach Sikhi? Sri Guru Teg Bahadur Sahib ji was not allowed into Sri Amritsar Sahib by essentially Sikhs. Sri Guru Teg Bahadur Sahib is one of the greatest warriors, hence his name says it all. He fought many battles along side other Sikhs before coming the Guru and did not take a step back in battle. Yet this warrior and Guru did not put up any fight, but turned around and walked away from a confrontation. Sri Guru Teg Bahadur Sahib ji's objective was to teaching Sikhi. So Guru Sahib took his family and set up shop somewhere else and taught Sikhi.

If Jugraj Singh was there to teaching Sikhi. He could have accomplished this by setting up far enough from the Muslims, where he does not have to shout over the Muslim preaching his religion and teach people who are not looking just to argue with him. The Muslims wanted to argue with Jugraj Singh because this prevents others from asking good questions, which will give them a better understanding of Sikhi. Who set up in that spot first is not an issue because Sri Harmandir Sahib was set up by Guru Sahib himself, yet his ninth form was not allowed to teach there, so he walked away from Sri Harmandir Sahib.

Jugraj Singh is born and bred in the UK. The art of 'reasoning' and 'debating' in the UK, i.e democracy, is and always has been about talking loudly, i.e shouting. This is why unlike other countries the UK does not have a Senate or Chamber etc where politicans gather and Bills are discussed. The UK has instead a 'Parliament'. That word comes from the French word for 'Talking', i.e heated verbal discussions. So you see, Jugraj Singh does not exist in some kind of vacuum away from the environment he was born in. He, just like you, is a product of his environment. Nowhere is this more evident than at Speakers Corner, where the object is to shout and draw particpants into a debate. I think he did this extraordinarly well. Collectively, as the Sikh diaspora, I think we use our skills acquired through our environment so well. For example as our north American cousins don't have this fiery debate culture we find their skills of professional lectures so beneficial to spreading Sikhi. In the same way, it is the way that our environment has shaped us that we find that fiery combatative street parchars are mostly suited to the young British born Sikhs. These little differences are something we should celebrate because collectively we all benefit from each other's strong points..

The problem with being decent, compassionate and liberal is that you get taken advantage of.

There must be a reason why people would have voted in Harper.

However that would be at a federal level.

The institutions that are in place are a different matter.

7 years of Harper have completely changed Canada, Ranjeet. Just to give you an example, the Environment was one of the things that the rest of the world most respected Canada for. But that was then. Since then, Stephen Harper has made Canada famous as the first country in the developed world to turn its back on the Kyoto Agreement on Climate Control and the only country in the whole world to turn its back on the UN Convention to Combat Desertification. He passed the Navigable Waters Protection Act, which overnight took the number of rivers and lakes in Canada being protected from 2 and half million to just 159 !!!

But, don't let me leave you with ths misconception that its just in the environmental sector that he has caused the most damage to Canada's reputation. Thanks to 7 years of distasteful right wing politics Canada now has the dubious honour of having more corrupt companies on the World Bank’s blacklist than any other country in the world. The entire world !!!

On the domestic front, he has been viciously cruel on the ordinary working class man, in terms of social security etc. He's done a 'Thatcher' on Canada and in answer to your question as to how come he kept gettiing elected you only have to look at how Thatcher did it.

Canada is very left wing socialist country and they are even more politically correct than the UK which is quite worrying.

Toronto is the feminist capital of the world and the feminists in general seem to be very quiet on these Islamic misogynists.

The North American continent has CAIR (Council of American Islamic Relations) which part of the Muslim Brotherhood of Egypt. They cannot confront in the open so they use covert methods of infiltrating institutions.

Things have changed Ranjeet. That Prime Minister Canada has got, Stephen Harper, has turned Canada into an affiliation of the Republican Party of America. Canada used to be respected throughout the world for being decent, compassionate and liberal but that right wing hawk of a bas***d Stephen Harper has ruined everything.

As for Muslims in north America....trust me, things are as bad there as they are here....its just that we in England seem to live up to our national stereotype of being complainers and moaners so we tend to articulate things more. I'll give you an example: Have you ever been to the world famous Coney island area of Brooklyn, New York ? I have, and I can tell you that is EXACTLY the same as Bradford. 40 to 50,000 Pakistanis setlled in that small area and everything about it, such as youths into crime and drugs, girls covered up, social conditions etc, is exactly the same as Bradford.

I think jugraj singh went there looking for a confrontation

Its Speakers Corner, akalifauj. The most famous and iconic location for free speech in the world. For 150 years anyone, with anything they'd like to say, goes there with a box, stands on it and gives lectures to the hundreds of thousands of people from around the world who converge there to listen and learn. Jugraj Singh desrves our upmost respect, both for his knowlege and balls.

Jagsaw, try undertaking a project of this magnitude, where you have to travel across a country, undertaking personal risk to conduct research and then sacrifice your Corporate job for 2 years to document the research, and then after publishers, distributors and payment companies have all taken their share, see how much return an author gets!!!! You can only criticize, without appreciating the passionate effort that someone has put in towards documenting the vestiges of the community as they stand 7 decades after partition. If ever you will write in your life, only then you will appreciate that for the author, this is not just Seva at break-even but an out of pocket expense. I don't wish to comment anymore on this thread for people who can only see the value of such a work to be worthy to be used as their coffee table. Surely a little bit of humbleness in your words would help you go much far in life. Thanks and no more from me on this forum where members like yourself are so arrogant. Good bye.

I do salute your effort my friend and indeed am grateful for it because you've given us all the chance to learn something, see new pictures, read new stuff. Thats all good. Reading your profile, however, I see that you've had a rather privelged upbringing, going to the finest private schools in India etc and have, no doubt, gotten used to the way things work in India , i.e people licking the backside of the elite. That is, however, not the way it works in the western world. Here, the higher a man's status, the more he is is criticised. And thats exactly how it should be. So, like I said, as an 'Indian' I think you've done a great job. Well Done. But, your efforts out there must be put into perspective. Each day in your country (India) little children work 16 hour days doing hard labour on building sites just to put food on their families table. Each day, desperately poor mothers dig roads for the elite and their cars whilst carrying their new born babies on their backs. In contrast, you got the chance to go on a jolly in foreign lands where you took photographs.

Don't be so sensitive brother. If you wanna do business with the west you'll have to get used to our western ways of not brown-nosing anyone, including book writing intellectuals.

In addition to V&A there are quality Indo-Persian weapons at the The Wallace Collection. Haven't been there for 20 odd years, but there is a breast plate with Gurbani inscription, small Sikh weapons and other impressive armour on the first floor.

Thanks for that Inderjit. I'd not been to the Wallace Collection before.

This looks interesting and worth seeing. Maharaja Ranjit Singh's gold mounted shamshir :

http://wallacelive.wallacecollection.org/eMuseumPlus?service=direct/1/ResultLightboxView/result.t1.collection_lightbox.$TspTitleImageLink.link&sp=10&sp=Scollection&sp=SfieldValue&sp=0&sp=2&sp=2&sp=Slightbox_3x4&sp=0&sp=Sdetail&sp=0&sp=F&sp=T&sp=0

And this one is definately worth investigating further as it states its a helmet specifically designed for Sikhs as it is made to accomodate a "top knot" ? : http://wallacelive.wallacecollection.org/eMuseumPlus?service=direct/1/ResultLightboxView/result.t2.collection_lightbox.$TspTitleLink.link&sp=10&sp=Scollection&sp=SfieldValue&sp=0&sp=2&sp=2&sp=Slightbox_3x4&sp=0&sp=Sdetail&sp=0&sp=F&sp=T&sp=1

This is a formal warning.

I apologise MODs. I probably crossed the line with that joke. :surrender:

Unfortunately in our community people will spend hundreds of pounds on useless items and yet complain about the fact that a book like yours costs $80.

Unfortunately, at $80, that coffee table book would be more expensive than my coffee table. It would have been good if the book was just a little big bigger, then I could have used it as an actual coffee table.

You don't have the justify yourself. You are entitled to have the last say on what kind of paper the book is to have and should not have to put up with ignorant comments by people like Jigsaw Singh

.

I already said, in my very first message, that this book looks very interesting and I'm really looking forward to reading it. Nobody, however, is beyond criticism. The author is not doing it for free as seva. He's hoping to earn a pretty penny from it and I don't begrudge him for that because I would do the same. I'm sure then, he expects criticism as well as praise. A little bit of criticism never killed anybody, Well, apart from that one bloke who had a heart attack because he was critcised. But apart from him a bit of criticism never killed anybody. And also, I suppose very sensitive people who get depressed when criticised, So apart from that one bloke and very sensitive people a bit of criticism never killed anybody.

the only thing is the events are based in london only. but thanks for the links.

Come on now 'Big Tera', use your brains. Just from the top of my head you've got the Khalsa cannons with Gurmukhi inscriptions guarding Chelsea Hospital, you've got the inscriptions about the Anglo-Sikh Wars in Trafalgar Sqaure, you've got the khalsa standards at westminster abbey, you've got our koh-e-noor at the tower , you've got maharaja ranjit singh's golden throne at the V&A.

This is London, my friend. London and the history of the Sikhs are linked. Use your brains and open your eyes. You're not in Budapest wondering what Sikh related things you can show people. You're in London. Wake up.

It is prined on Art paper, coffee table books are not more than 250 pages and in this book one is packing 500 pages, like 2 coffee table books in one. Printed costs of this type hardbound cover itself is very expensive. That is why it seems expensive. The cheaper version is planned once this high quality print stock is sold, so the seed capital is recovered. At that point we plan to print in normal dirty paper in black and white photos, which should bring it less than Rs. 1000. Till then this lot will be premium priced.

What the hell is "art paper" ?

Whats wrong with normal paper that every book in the world is printed on ? What shenanigans went on in that meeting between you and the publisher which led you to say "I demand my book is printed on special paper".

"All our books are printed on good paper", the publishers replied.

"Yeah but my book's special. I want it printed on special paper", you said.

" We don't have special paper", they said. "Perhaps you're thinking the rest of the world uses that pathetic low quality toilet roll standard paper that is in common use in India ?"

"Well I don't want that", you replied.

" So what you're saying is you want paper that is considered exotic for Indians but normal for the rest of the world ? " , they asked.

"Brilliant", said the unpaid intern. "As it will be something exotic and unusual for the Indians, and it will be mostly Indians who will be buying this book, we can make more money buy stressing the quality of paper"

"Great", said the publishers at the meeting. "But what shall we call this normal high standard of paper that everyone in the west takes for granted ?"

" I know", said the unpaid intern. "Lets call it Art Paper"

I always thought it was for the energy, given how they are all-nighters and Punjabi culture habitually equates badaams and other nuts with energy (although I equate it with tummy problems and toilet problems.....(irratable bowel syndrome)

Gurbachan singh coming in MSG -3

MOD CUT

You can't have a discussion about the Ahamadyias and lump them with 'Muslims'. For example, the constitution of Pakistan and other muslim countries specificaly state that Ahamadyas are NOT Muslims. i.e Muslims do NOT think of Ahamadyias as Muslims.

Once you get that out of the way you can go on and appreciate and understand this faith group's infactuation with Sikhism. Internationally known as Ahamadyias they themselves call themselves 'Quaidians', after the village Quaidian in District Gurdaspur, Punjab. That is where their faith was born. So, when you appreciate how a religion was born in the real majha heartland of the Sikhs you begin to understand how important our Gurus are to them as 'pirs'.

They're wrong of course but bearing in mind how they are being persecuted and massaced by Muslims all over south asia I say we tolerate this persecuted group, understand why they might be thinking what they're thinking and simply let them be.

I don't know everything, but meat also has a deeper meaning than the physical form of meat. Personally, I don't see a problem with it as long as it's not "kutha mas" there are nihang sants like Harnam Singh Rangur Wale.

If, as you say, the meat-eating habit is "OK", why do meat eaters like yourself like to carry on your habit in a sneaky, round-about way ?

I mean you want to continue the habit of eating the meat but you don't want to do the action required in order to get that meat on your plate. i.e, you want that piece of fried chicken but there's somethng in your heart that makes you incapable of going into a field and killing the animal every time you feel hungry. You want to eat it but you want someone else to do the killing for you.The fact that you need that distance in order to continue with the habit is proof enough that it is not the right habit to have. That there is your conscience talking. Listen to it.

I don't know why Sikhs buy into this propoganda that we killed more muslims.

Don't ignore old people back in the pend. Talk to them. They have stories to tell. I often do, in my pend, my nanke and my in-laws etc. They all have the same story, i.e how they would form into jathas in the evenings and go hunting Muslims to kill.

No. No reliable account has ever been made of the deaths. Figures range from 50,000 upto a million. Majority of deaths upto August were of Sikhs. After partition, many were killed on both sides, but because this is the time when Sikhs started to kill on the same intensity that the league had suddenly we were the perpetrators and aggressors, and they became the victims.

Every single reliable record, especially the British gazateers, of the number of deaths during partition puts the number of Muslims killed at least 2 and half times that of the number of Sikhs killed

Jalandhar had a muslim majority but muslims were not the majority in Jalandhar.

Uh ????

That processed garbage is hardly the same thing as a fillet of pure chicken breast Jagsaw.

Besides which, Paki eateries are notoriously filthy and unhygienic. Why turn this incident into a tirade against all meat everywhere?

Because ultimately, Balkar, eating any kind of meat is the equivelent to eating tutti. Its not something that's restricted to small kebab shops. Even Burger King admitted the other year that they had been serving its customers horse disguised as beef. As we are what we eat as far as I'm concerned anyone that eats meat is one giant hot steaming pile of poo.