JagsawSingh

Holi is not celebrated because of this. Learn your history.

You learn your history.

I got a funny feeling you might be one of those that takes his 'facts' from wikipedia so might well come back again quoting some lovely wholesome family-friendly story about the moon etc. You'd be wrong to do so but that is the limit of your knowledge of 'history' isn't it my friend ?

You refrain from answering specific posts directed specifically to you in regards to your opinion of how you think any sikh opposed to the celebration of Christmas within a sikh household is manmatt having "lost their way".

No Sikhseeker, you're obviously having problems reading what I've written in the English language. I clearly stated that those who keep equating this lovely jolly time for our children to open up their presents and have a little tree with the disgusting ribald festival of 'holi' have clearly "lost their way".

Why after not answering the questions I asked you, twice, to which you have stated that you will not comment again on this topic TWICE, would you now post your opinion, AGAIN LOL!?

If I remember correctly Sikseeker, you asked if it was then ok for Sikhs in Punjab to have xmas trees and I clearly gave you an answer , i.e the 'horses for courses' answer.

Was the answer so good that you'd like it repeated a second time ?

You are 200% right about this is a "free" world. Maybe you missed it. But your Guru, Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji said not to participate in Holi and instead started the Holla Mohalla. An example of not to celebrate Christmas

It is incredibly cretinous to bring 'holi' into any conversation about xmas trees.

Holi is a crass, obscene and ribald carnival of immorality. No person of any moral fibre, whether religious or not, would partake in it. Its origins are obviously the commeration of krishna's orgy conquests of the cow-girls but the way it is commemerated is almost as disgusting as the thing that is being commemorated itself :Drugged-up mental mayhem.

They way some of you here are continously equating this despicable 'festival' with the practice of our children being jolly and happy by opening their little presents and having a little xmas tree demonstrates very well, I think how many of you have lost your way in a very very sad and surprising way.

Any discussion on this subject is meaningless unless we understand properly the 'farla'.

My guess is that all the early Sikhs proudly had a farla in their dastars as it was the mark of a Sikh, i.e noble warriors who proudly stood up to extremist sunni Muslim ideology.

A little historical context is needed here. Prior to the formation of Islam it was Christians and Jews that wore turbans. Indeed, the turban was essential for Jews as the crowns upon their heads. Islam, however, proclaimed that only Muslims could wear a turban as it was mark of a Muslim. The Pact of Omar subsequently made it illegal for any Jew or Christian to wear a turban. This essential muslim headwear was notable for it's 'tail', as prescribed in the quran. For Sunni Muslims, the dastar must have a tail hanging down. Shia Islam, which was quite influential among the Sikhs given the cultural affinity of people such as Bhai Mardana etc, did not wear a tail in their turbans. Sikhs, deliberately had a farla in their dastars as it was the complete opposite of what the sunni muslims wore and a direct dare to them to do something about it if they can. Instead of the essential tail hanging down the Sikhs had a flag proudly going up. The flag that flies proudly above our heads, so to speak.

Point is, in terms of origins, there is nothing purely spiritual or divine about it. It was always a statement. So, as someone in a previous message described the video as a "fashion statement", he or she is not far from the truth in a historical context.

The farla then, is the mark of a Sikh, in contrast to the muslim tail in the turban.

WJKK WJKF

Veer ji, I was waiting for you reply, or is it a "no comment " again?

Yes and No.

Yes its a no comment but No its not "again" because my problem here is obviously the fact that I reply a bit too much to the numerous questions and points thrown my way rather than the other way around. A good example is that thread about the first gurdwara / udham singh. I had too many answers for everything and as soon as I posted the evidence that the others said didn't exist the admins deleted the thread.

I've learnt my lesson from that one. The admin / mods here like a certain viewpoint.....The minute they see an alternative viewpoint getting popular or winning the argument they jump in and put a stop to it. For that reason, I've said all that needs to be said already on this thread. Its best I say no more.

lol

JawahSingh youngun?? lol hahaha

I personaly know Sikhs who have become christian so this is not a laughing matter. I take this seriously. Yes we did have trees when we was younger thats because we didnt know better.

Christmas should not be celebrated. do we actually know what the celebratinon is? Its probably somehting that goes against Sikhism. we dont belive in no jesus as the son of God. and people who belive this stuff are going against the teachings of Sikhism. As Sikh men we need to set an example to the Sikh women. not by putting up some tree,. wake and smell the coffee mate.

You wern't clever enough to understand why I chose you as an example my friend.

Its because of what you said in your previous message. You said:

"I have got nothing against having a few drinks on Christmas and having some turkey. But there is a limit that we should not cross no pun intended.

and that red line is putting up trees"

So let me just get this straight, you think getting drunk and consuming the flesh of god's creatures are good, but those lovely trees are EVIL!! ?

Do you see now why I used you as an example ?

As Sikh men we need to set an example to the Sikh women. not by putting up some tree,

Remind us again why your'e a moral authority Sikh females should aspire to follow ?

You never did respond with an opinion on if Sikhs within panjab, especially sirhind started decorating their homes with lights, had Xmas trees in their homes and Santa stops outside? Be interesting in knowing what you thought, if this were to ever happen?

Well Sikhseeker this is what I mean by putting things into context. When we here in England join in with the festivities is because we're part of this society where almost everybody is in it for the jollyness and almost nobody is in it for the 'Christian' aspect. Its simply an extension of ourselves as part of society.

However, if someone in Punjab does it, where it most definately is NOT part of the culture of society, than you know it takes on a purely religious role...i.e Christianity.

Horses for courses my friend. For example, my brothers in Punjab, if they need to do a number 2, simply drop their pants on the roadside (rural) and do it. And thats perfectly OK. But does that mean its OK for us to do that here in Tooting, Tipton and Teddington too ?

How about a Sikh compassion angle ...why destroy a jiv to adorn our homes for a week or two ? surely that is a form of paap because there is no need to do so, and buying a cheap plastic one is worse because it is built by exploitation of the poor . To live in truth is what we seek and the truth is trees indoors for any reason is manmat and it is worse to do it for a religious/cultural reason

How about throwing your same argument back at you: Why assume that plastic tree is built by exploiting the poor. I'm sure the people that work in the factories that make the trees, decorations etc etc are hoping and praying that people won't stop buying them because if they do, they will be out of a job and their children will have no food.

I asked before, but all of you tree haters ignored it, the question was this: As you are anti-xmas tree simply because of the christian roots of christmas (even though 99.99% of the UK don't even see anything christian about christmas) why don't I see any of you showing the same zeal against neck-ties ? (given how the roots of the neck-tie are also christian)

Some of you, middle class members of the WI and a few old pensioners are the only people left alive in western Europe that still equate xmas with Jesus and Christianity. The rest of us didn't even think of the connection before you put it into our heads. Its nearly 2015....Not 1942. get with the programme. You're the only ones that even think of Jesus. Stop trying to protect the Sikh 'children' when the children don;t even make the connection you 1940's dwellers are making. The only ones putting Jesus into their heads is you. Stop making the exact same mistakes the previous generation of Muslims in the UK have made.

If you wanna see how confused you're making the young 'uns just take a look at the previous message, from a young fella among us. Earlier in this thread he was quite happy with trees, like the rest of us having never associated xmas with christianity, but you guys have now created a young man that thinks like this: This is what he said:

I have got nothing against having a few drinks on Christmas and having some turkey. But there is a limit that we should not cross no pun intended.

and that red line is putting up trees ect.

Happy now ? :nono:

These evil things are surely the devil's handiwork. These things with trunks sent to tempt us. And those digusting branches they have that stick out are, I am sure, phallic symbols designed to lead us astray. And they are sneaky tricksters too. A certain season comes and their leaves fade away and fall off, in order to make us think they are dead. But really they are just pretending because the next time we look, in another season, those leaves are back on again. Its all a dirty trick they play to confuse us, so that they can corrupt us.

I really do think its time we stopped wasting time and resources fighting injustices and genocide and instead we all join together to fight this true evil that is causing the main problem to our community : Trees.

To the OP: If you're happy marrying into your own bloodline and accept the increased risk of deformed children good for you.

But why settle for that distant cousin of yours ? Why not just marry your brother. You know each other well enough.

Paris is beautiful

Paris is a dump

Both true statements. Its actually boringly beautiful. Haussmann knocked down everything old in paris and replaced them with new beautiful buildings. Trouble is, he put the same beautiful buildings up all over the city and it soon becomes boringly beautiful. It has none of the mad eclectic mix that London has. Where else on earth, apart from London, do you find Norman cathedrals, art deco apartments blocks, medieval inns, edwardian houses, victorian libraries, gothic churches, roman relics and state of the art modern skyscrapers all on the same street ?

The thing about Paris is that they are getting away with an unofficial apartheid system. The city is largely black and Arab but Paris has a system whereby they deliberately house (hide) all the blacks and Arabs in purpose made suburbs (ghettos) and let them get on with life on state handouts without the chance of ever finding a job etc.

The city has the feel of New York in the 1970's and London in the 1980's...a very edgy feel, a feeling that racial tension is in the air and could explode at any time.

Absolutely luckysiingh99. Like you, I have been pretty astounded by the general lack of understanding of very simple matters of Law , being exhibited here. It actually really worries me because already the other south Asian groups have a stereotype of our community as being very thick, so we should be doing everything to dsipel that myth by making ourselves so knowledgable, so well-read.

Can I please make a humble request to the Admins: When you decide to completely delete a thread as if it doesn't exist can you please bear in mind what great things are on that thread and how much the sangat can learn from it, before making your decision to delete it ?

Its happened many times here but the most recent one is the 'First Sikh Temple in the UK' thread. That thread was jam=packed with fantastic historical facts. I really don't understnd why facts would want to be hidden from the sangat, especially the children because this is where they would come to learn things.

Within that thread there was no swearing, no name calling, no castism (apart from the original thread starter).....It was jam=packed with brilliant historical detail. Why on earth would you want brilliant history hidden from people ?

This was OUR history....and its a wonderfull history and surely the actions of the taliban in 1990's Afghanistan, where they tried to keep history and knowledge hidden from the people, is reason enough for us not to go down that same route.

So please Admins, if you could please re-read that thread you deleted and sit down and think to yourself "Is there actually anything offensive beiing said on here.....or is it just these facts that I want to keep hidden from people". I say this because this second route is a very very dangerous route for our community to go down. It willl spawn 2 or 3 generations of Sikhs scared of learning and knowlede and history and will then take another 2 or 3 generations to rectify that mistake.

Please reread that thread, and see what wonderfull history there was on there. Should it really be kept hidden from the Sikh readers of this forum ?

Sis, it will not go to any court but....if I were the customer (and again, this is assuming we're talking about one of the big companies here suh as carephone warehouse) I would get a letter sent from a lawyer to the company. He wanted a new battery but it is 100% certain he will get far more than a new battery from them in order to avoid the adverse publicity.

But going back to our friend....he is making his situation worse by not acknowledging the fact that he was wrong and has learned from it.....and it is your bad advice for him to do that.

You are being sworn at and being harangued just for doing your job , and you warn the abuser that if he doesn't stop the call with be ended (within rights nothing in law to force someone to stand and take it) upon which it gets worse so you calmly say I didn't expect that granted the religion shouldn't have come into it (which is a rookie mistake in CS) but it was not derogatory against the race or the individual apart from criticising his swearing

According to our freind, the cutsomer merely said the word s##t before our friend brought his religion into it. Then, and only then, did they customer use actual swear words. I'm sure we'd all take offence if a company made threats to terminate our call if we used the mild word s##t.

I'm not sure why, but you seem fixated with the Contract Law / Cosumer rights element of this scenario. You keep going on about it even though its a non-issue here.

You're not looking at this thing objectively. Look at it from the company's point of view. As they are ultimately liable for anything their employee says or does you can appreciate their need to protect themselves from this happening again.

It should not have happened. Our friend was clearly in the wrong. He's now making his situation worse by not acknowledging and apologising for his mistake.

If you took this to a lawyer he would say no chance of getting a case through on this basis.

On the contrary. Assuming the company involved was a large coporation such as carphone warehouse, phones 4 u etc, I'd be eager to take it on on behalf of the customer. Hoping, of course, that the employees lawyer is you, given that you're giving him shoddy and misguided advice. :cool2:

Racial discrimination lawsuits are rare here because they are hard to make stick without serious evidence , thankfully unlike USA we have not got to the level of petty litigation running through our courts due to the strict standards held for allowing cases to be submitted

Thats the complete opposite of the facts. When it comes to discrimination tribunals etc it is far easier and cheaper to do so in the UK. In contrast, vry few race complaints are heard in America as usually only class action and those taken up by their civil liberties groups get heard.

Just because I buy a product it is my job to inform myself of the conditions of sale(caveat emptor) as ignorance of the law is no defence in the UK, in contract law if I have a shop I can refuse to treat any custom I like because the contract is only struck on sale of goods . The guys battery was sold fit for purpose and could in theory be exchanged for similar(sales of goods act 1979) but not get money back, also the contract he struck was for defective part replacement up to six months from sale, which is reasonable for manufacturing faults to become apparent especially in high turnover electronic goods. If he doesn't like it he should complain to the company in writing simple

You're missing the point. This isn't a Contract Law issue. Nobody, even the customer himself, is talking about his consumer rights. That issue ended the moment he was informed about the company policy. The issue is one where his race and religion were brought into the business conversation.

Lets put it this way, lets assume you telephone the Gas company to query your bill. Whether or not you're a Christian, Jew or Sikh should have notheing to do with your query...but what if they bring it into the equation ?

They would have no right to do so and you, just like this customer, would not be happy with it.

As far as this company are concerned, they need to protect themselves from this because, although it was our friend to who did this, it is the company itself that is liable through vicarious liability.

As I said before, clearly what our friend did was wrong....clearly being fired is perhaps too strong a punishment, but in order to avoid that he needs to acknowledge he made a mistake and show his employers he has learned from that mistake.

But is it an dismiss able is another matter.

The law has to be fair and listen to both sides.

Absolutely agree. We're in total agreement with that which is why I told him in my first message to admit his mistake and try and minimise his punishment.

Thus speaks judge JagsawSingh.

This is not about mine or anyone else's viewpoint. The Law is very clear on this matter and the Law is that the customer deserved not to have his race or religion come into the equation during any business transaction with this company.

SInghs are not a race but a religious group...so again no racism or religious hatred,

jkvlondon, as you live in the UK, you should know that according to UK Law, the Sikhs and the Jews are the only 2 religions that are considered a 'race' as well as a religion.

Now, as for the issue at hand, I'm afraid its not good news for the starter of the thread. We know and understand that our friend meant nothing disrespectful but really, we need to be objective and look at this situation from that customer's point of view. He had a right not to have his race or religious belief brought into any business transaction with the company and anyone else listening back on the conversation will instantly conclude that you feel they and their religion are uncouth and speak with filthy mouths but only Sikhs speak in a civilised way. His race and religion were irrelevent and should not have come into the conversation. That much is so clear cut I really would not advise you to appeal any decision that goes against you.

What is more frightening, judging by the advice you've received from others here, is how little understanding of the law many Sikhs here have. In life there are alleged cases of discrimination that are difficult to judge and some that are easy. This one here is so crystal clear...so obvious that I am amazed you have received the kind of advice given in previous answers. It demonstrates a very widespread ignorance of Laws and rights, and that really doesn't bode to well for our future.

At best, I hope you might be able to minimise your punishment by having a conversation with your employers where you admit that you made a mistake (which you will ensure does not happen again) and it was an honest albeit mistaken attempt to say something positive to the customer.

LOL , mitti actually means dust , or more accurately soil , I feel what you mean is mithi (sweet is called mithi in punjabi )

Its a Punjabi word, not an English one. Therefore, how can there be a right and wrong way to spell a word that doesn't exist in English...in English ?

The whole punjab is divided in to many areas - Th Malwa , Jalandhar Doab what we nowadays call Doaba , the Bari doab - Modern day'a Majha and area from Lahore to Multan across the border , then comes Rachan Doab the area lying between rivers Ravi & Chenab , further there is Jatch Doab - area between Chenab & Jehlum Rivers

We're living in the year 2014. Therefore how things were in 1932 is no longer true. Therefore, you shouldn't trust anything said on wikipedia, let alone copy and paste any of that rubbish.

A thing called partition happened in 1947, and this 'thing' made everything we previously knew about the dialects (and where they belong) redundant. For example, there are far more people that speak in a doaba dialect in the Faisalabad district of Pakistan than there are in the Jalandhar area. There as many pahari Punjabi speakers in Delhi as there are in its natural habitat.

Remember, its now 2014, soon to be 2015. You shouldn't be throwing outdated data and facts from the 1920s at us.

20mins actually.

I added an extra 6 hours 40 mins for dramatic and comic effect.

Failed on both counts, I know. :surrender:

If you're taking the train from London, the station the train stops at 'Gare Du Nord' is not too far from te place you find the Sikh community and Gurdwara (between Gare Du Nord and Le Chappelle). Bearing in mind the French legacy in parts of south India (pondicherry) and Mauritus and the Seychelles etc, that area has always been home to Paris' fairly large Indian community since the 1960's (99.9% south Indian), but the Punjabis that arrived in the last decade or so also settled there (in very small numbers). Other than that, you'll meet Punjabis under the Eifel Tower (illegaly selling small statues of the Eifel Tower) or at the entrance to Disneyland (ironicaly also selling small statutes of the Eifel Tower). I saw so many all doing the same thing I'm just amazed the ones in London are not selling small statues of the Eifel Tower.

The only real hardship you'll face is finding vegetarian food. People in restaurants (including McDonalds etc) will give you weird looks like you're mad when you ask what vegetarian stuff they have. The answer is they don't have any and you're probably the first vegetarian they've ever met in their life.

Well, if he wasn't depressed and down-hearted before he certainly will be after reading that last message (above).

Wait a second while i go ask him...

You've been gone 7 hours now S4NHG. What did he say when you asked him ?

I've read your post 2 times now and I still can't work out whether or not she will / would have stayed with you....whether or not its a genuine marriage.

You can imagine how hard it would have been for the immigration officials.......We're not convinced even after you made a feeble attempt to convince us.

Seriously brother, if this is a genuine marriage than it was your job to convince Canada Immigration of this fact. You do this with hard facts and passion in your argument. If you're going down another appeal route my advice to you is to employ the services of an agent. Normally I wouldn't recommend going down that route but in your case, with your lack of coherent argument and passion, I think it might be best.

Btw....If its any consolation I can tell you that an extremely large number of these type of Canada immigration hearings are rejected first and second time around these days but nearly all of them succeed at the final hurdle....so don't lose all hope.

No comment.

Apparently the powers that be here have decided that putting the clock back half a century and deciding the whole world associates christmas with Jesus and Christianity must be the final word.

End of conversation. Hot thread turned stone cold dead in an instant. A masterclass in discussion forum management. :blink2:

Please my brothers and sisters. Please do not address any more points and questions towards me. If I'm not allowed to reply and answer than you'll just be wasting your own valuable time.

To all who are putting up trees , why? What's your reason for putting them up? As some have stated that they look nice then why do you take it down, just leave them up in your rooms permanently.

Why do you sometimes wear western jeans ? They're something that have nothing to do withour forefathers. If they look nice, why do you take them off ? Why not keep them on all the time ?

I wouldn't put up a tree as it has no meaning to me or my family

Just like jeans have no meaning to you, your family or your heritage. Just like the jeans, the trees are harmless but why the hypocricy about which western traditions you wish to partake in and which you don't ?

Wallpaper ?

Clocks ?

Carpet ?

Is there no limit to the things you disaprove of because they have no relevance tour heritage or is it something you have personally against harmless trees ?

I pity the children of many of the members here. The holiday season is not about you....its not for you. Its for the children to join in and have fun. Thats what being a child is all about. As I said before, apart from some of you here nobody in the developed world associates the holiday season with Jesus and Christianity.

I spent my wholelife dismissing intolerant Muslims for refusing to integrate...refusing to let their children be productive members of the society they live in. Never in a million years did I imagine that a new generation of young adult Sikhs would be of the same ilk. Disappointing to say the least.