JagsawSingh

First Atlanta and now New york, in the space of a week.

Are there any normal, sensible people living in America, or is being an imbecile a prequisite for getting citizenship ?

With 99% of people in this world called 'Sonal Parmar' being Hindu I'm willing to bet that this disgusting woman is too. I've read from other sources that the groom was a white Christian. This one despicable incident highlights the problem all in one go :

A Hindu marrying a Christian in a Gurdwara for the sake of photography, then goes on to commit the worst sacriledge ever.

Can there be a worse run Gurdwara than that one in New York ?

By decorating you home with trees or whatever, is only confusion for a young mind living in a multicultural society.

Young people are cleverer and stronger than you give them credit for, and certainly cleverer than you.

It would take an extremely weak and feeble mind to get confused over a tree. It would take an extremely weak and feeble mind to start questioning one's own faith because a card with a fat jolly geezer wearing a red suit sits on the fireplace. Frankly it's an insult to young Sikhs everywhere that you would even think they are so weak in the head.

They are young. They want to and need to have fun, and apart from you and a few others here nobody else in western Europe even thinks about associating Jesus and Christianity with any of this Santa business.

I would have thought young Sikhs all over the western world are probably laughing their heads off when they read some of the comments from the 'older' Sikhs here in the name of protecting the young 'uns.

By the looks of things, my fellow Sikhs on this forum are the only people left in this world who still equate modern day 'christmas' with Jesus. Perhaps this is partialy true in North America where Christianity is still alive, but to the rest of the developed world (of which our children are a part) christmas is Santa's big day.

The year is 2014. Not 1942. Christianity and Jesus don't even come into the equation anymore. Its a time for all kids, of all creeds and faiths, to get some presents and have some fun. My kids are certainly getting into the spirit of Santa, the tree looks good in the corner of the room with lights on and the children are strong enough in their Sikh belief not to let a tree and a fat jolly fella with a red suit question their belief system. :blink2:

How can they even think that if our Guru started a tradition , it can be questioned or challenged?

I think there is a danger we are losing sight of the deeper significance of marriage and focusing instead on mere cultural issues, i.e. who stands where.

What you term 'tradition' was, some might argue, the cultural norm in Hindu society and still is so again, I do think its a mistake to be too hung on the pheripheral issue when what really matters is the union with god.

So while it is true that our current Sikh marriage ceremony is carrying on with Hindu vedic practices am I also right in thinking that our current ceremony is actually something that was started and popularised by the enemy Nirankari movement and subsequently adopted by the Singh Sabha movement ?

Just read all the replies on this thread.

If nothing else, at least we now know who, among us, has homosexual tendancies.

Not agreeing with them, as they've clearly got it wrong (and clearly much of the disaproval here should be directed at that Gurdwara in Atlanta that sanctioned it rather than the 2 individuals that didn't know better) but I do see the point they wanted to make, albeit in the wrong way. I don't see how the Hindu marriage custom of the male leading the female around is compatible with Sikhi, just as I don't see how the Hindu custom of the male being the protector of the female is compatible with Sikhi (Rakhri). Perhaps the bride should lead the male around ? After all, that is what is going to happen to him every day for the rest of his life from now on, so he might as well get used to it.

We need to burn down all the pakhandi noormehali deras!!

If I can use this opportunity to make a couple of very random, totally unconnected statements.

1. Divya Jyoti Jagrati Sansthan UK: 96d West End Lane, Hayes, Middlesex
2. Cooks long household safety matches: 99p at Asda.

My local gurudwara, Sri Guru Singh Sabha Hounslow, has been sponsoring eye camps for many years,

'Sponsoring' is not necessarily the right word.Hounslow Singh Sabha don't actually pay for anything. Individual members of the local sangat sponsor the camps in their ancestoral villages (through Hounslow Singh Sabha) , they then tell everyone what great people they are and Hounslow Singh Sabha tell everyone what a great institution they are. The actual patients are just pawns in their self-publicity game. They matter little.

One thing this tragic incident proves, is that whilst the sponsors here may be giving up their money and time nobody in Punjab itself is giving away anything for free. Despite the seemingly good intentions those working on the frontline at these camps (doctors and nurses) are still your typical greedy, dirty and ammoral Punjabis, doing it for money.

It is desperately sad that it has taken such an awful tragedy for us to realise what is going on. From now on, Sikh charities in the west that set up these camps in Punjab must ensure that they take their own doctors and clinicians with them. The danger, of course, is that this tragedy will put off many overseas Sikhs from sponsoring these much needed, and relatively cheap eye camps.

What are you talking about?

What do you mean "What are you talking about" ?

I made it clear in the message. You said "Jews are the most educated and wealthy minority group in the whole of the UK" and then went on to lecture us about generalising. I then reminded you how official UK government statistics show how the UK's large ultra-orthodoxx (hasidic) Jewish community throughout north east London (stamford Hill etc) is officialy the UK's poorest community with the UK's lowest rate of education and highest rate of reliance on state benefits (that's because they want to pray all day and not work).

Thus, I reminded you of the paradox of your original message where you told us not to generalise, before you generalised yourself.

And that, my friend, was what I was "talking about".

I think the main similarities Sikhs have with Jews is that we are the only 2 religions in the world that dont actively try and convert/force other people, which is something the Jews should be comended for. While in other faiths it is greatly ingrained to spread their faith, in our religions we are strongly against any kind of conversions or spreading our faith

True that Judaism does not proselytize. One might argue that is because they believe they are the chosen people and to hell with the rest but I think its probably something to do with the fact that their faith teaches that theirs is not the 'only way' to reach the kingdom of heaven. In this regard, forgive me if I've got this wrong (and I think I might have) but isn't Sikhism by definition a proselytising religion because we believe that becoming amritdhari is the one and only way to reach mukhti ?

i might be abit off but do you guys think tht there could be a possibility of a new punjabi dialect being made based on the punjabi diaspora after a few generations like a dialect with lots of english influence kind of like "spanglish" in america where its pretty much a mix of english and spanish? Or is that a bit to fat fetched

Its very real. Not so much in terms of Punjabi though but certainly when it comes to English. You can tell that from this current generation of Sikhs born in Canada and UK cities. If those Sikhs live in white areas than its not so noticeable but if they live in London, Brampton, Birmingham or Vancouver than they almost definately talk in a poorer standard of English than their parents did (if they were also born there). I'm not talking about slang here, I'm talking about not being able to pronounce words correctly, instead pronouncing them with an 'Indian' accent.

When it comes to Punjabi however, I see us overseas Sikhs as the guardians and safeguarders of the language. It is we who are keeping the dialects and unusual words going. For example, whenever I go back to Punjab, I say certain words and everyday says "wow....we haven't heard that word since our grandfather used to say it".

You see, this is not unusual, as the world witnessed the same thing with the English language once America and Canada started to be colonised. The Americans took with them from England English as it used to be spoken in Shakespeare's time. We here in England, like they are doing in Punjab, started to change the language and incorporate new words from foreign languages but the Americans stayed true to the language as it was and safeguarded it (btw I'm not referring to Noah Webster's silly spellings of things). For example we here in England used to call trousers 'pants'....we used to call autumn 'fall'...we used to say words like 'gotten'....even the word 'zee' was at one point used by parts of England as the last letter of the alphabet. In the same way, we the Punjabi diaspora, are safeguarding Punjabi, it's words and it's correct pronounciation.

Problem with Vancouver is that there aren't very many job opportunities and the only viable industry they have is BC bud (marijuana). It is also extremely overpriced compared to the rest of Canada.

Interesting that many states of the U.S. have or are in the process of legalizing marijuana, this will have an impact on the drug industry in BC.

Agreed that BC bud is the cause of too much of the problem there. As it is in so much demand in America its just way too easy for the locals (Sikhs) to get involved in it given the obscene amounts of money to be made.

I mean, just take a look at today's news :

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2014/12/03/edmonton-mp-brother-arrested_n_6264412.html?utm_hp_ref=mostpopular&ir=Canada+Politics

But, what BC bud has done is created a wider 'gangster' problem that has ripples through every Sikh community throughout the world. The last time I was in Punjab, for example, everyone was telling me how Punjabis from Canada were flooding rural Punjab with 'ice. Now 'ice. as you know has spread across America, Canada and Australia with devastating effect over the last few years but luckily we here in the UK have been spared (given how the UK doesn't have the isolation required to make it) but in Punjab it is becoming so common for young men (and women) to smoke it with truly devastating social and health effects. Thats why I don't just dismiss what is ging on in BC as if it isn't my concern. Its a bad situation that ultimately affects us all in a negative way.

In a recent Canadian survey Sikhs were listed as the most hated community in Canada...i.e disliked even more than Muslims. When you compare that to how, in the UK, the Sikhs are constantly listed as the group of people most people liked, you have to conclude that something is going wrong there in Canada. In many ways then, the Punjabis of BC are the Mirpuris of Canada.

Why don't you read history before commenting here. Sikhs fought under the British as slaves and not free men.

Honestly, I think there's something seriusly wrong with you jsingnz.

You're sitting in New Zealand today not because of what some great clerking some bengali in calcutta did in some office. You're sitting there today because those brave Sikh soldiers laid the foundations for all of us to enjoy the life we have today in English speaking countries. If they had known then that a future generation would spawn an ungratfeul so and so like you I'm sure they would have thought twice.

Like my own family, who proudly served in the British Army, and with it built our Sikh name across the globe, none of them were chained, hooded and tricked into the army like slaves. Each and every one of them made their own free choice to do so. Shame on you....YOU who have done nothing for any generation....Shame on you for enjoying the life they gave to you and yet calling them slaves.

Do not know much about South African Sikhs. We are all aware of East African Sikhs but not much about South Africa. Strange since there is a large subcontintental presence there, particularly Durban.

Well not so strange from the point of view that South Africa's massive 'Indian' community, like that of the Carribean islands, were imported there as semi-slaves i.e bonded indentured labourers. No matter where the Sikh went, he always went as a free and proud man, so Sikhs are usually never found in those semi-slave places. I say 'usually' because the exception here is Fiji. Among the massive Indian semi-slave community there are Sikhs but those Sikhs came much later a free soldiers of the British Army. So, in that respect, I do agree with you that it does seem a little strange that Sikh soldiers were stationed all over the world but not to South Africa. I Suppose the Boer War and its relevance to the Anglo-Sikh wars had something to do with that but strangely Rudyard Kipling, in his famous story about the Boer War 'A Sahib's War', chooses to tell it from the eyes of a Sikh from Punjab 'Umar Singh'.

Jews are the most educated and wealthy minority group in the whole of the UK.

Well thats the paradox isn't it ? it works both ways because official UK government statistics state that Jews (ultra-orthodox...i.e north London) are the UK's poorest community with the country's largest reliance to public funds and its lowest rate of education.

There is good and bad in all faiths so to generalize the whole population is wrong.

Exactly. And thats a lesson you also need to learn when you make statements like "Jews are the most educated and wealthy minority group in the whole of the UK". i.e see above.

You wanna see and hear what their (Isreali Jews) reputation is in India. Through ignorance (and some racism) people are quick to pin the blame on black Africans but the reality is that the Jews (Isrealis) are the cause of a massive drug industry in every major city in India. In India, it is commonly said that if you want drugs in the big cities you just follow the star of David signs. You've never met more arrogant people in ypur life and a quick google search on 'isrealis in India' makes for some very interesting reading

But this hedonistic lifestyle really is the norm with most jews. Very very few of them are actually religious, but most are heavily into also sorts of hedonistic and immmoral pastimes.

But....the minute you knock them and point out their shortcomings they 'all of a sudden' become Jewish which automatically makes you an anti-semite. They'll call you an anti-semite even if you're an Arab, which is weird because the Arabs are also semites, which would mean the Arab hates himself. :wow:

What does it say about us that we can't even get that MINIMUM requirement right?

No, only paying lip service to their faith it says more about us being better overhaul as a community. 99% of THEM are secularist only paying lip service to their faith when it comes to national identity. Overhaul, throughout Israel, America and especially India (where the Jewish Isreali tourists have a notorious reputation of being India's biggest drug dealers and pimps) they have a reputation of living a very hedonist non-religious lifestyle.

Trust me, the percentage of our community who fall into those bad brackets is a hellava lot lower than them.

What do we have in common ? you ask.

Well, alot, but most of all the Turban.

You see, the Jewish scriptures prescribed the wrapping of the turban on the head as the thing that crowns the Jew with glory. As such, Jews wore turbans. It was the sign of a Jew.

Then Islam came along and as we all know, Islam basically took on all things Jewish and claimed them for himself and his faith. Thus, the turban became the Arab's crown of glory. They then made it official with the Pact of Omar. This pact ordained that nobody but muslims are allowed to wear a turban, with Jews liable for punishment by death if they disobeyed this order.

Then along came we Sikhs, who took this crowning glory back and placed it on the heads of men that deserved it.

Nah i meant what I said

if we following traditional way of reading names it is SIngh or Kaur belonging to / having the Attribute of /or who is (FIRST NAME)

you can still use Jarnail and Major but 'Singh of the love of the ocean/ who loves the Ocean ' isn't exactly inspiring any aspect of sikhi or an aspect of the personality that can help with becoming a better human .

I would disagree. My assertion is that if you look at our history the message is that we shouldn't place too much empasis on mere 'names' as it just becomes another ritual. Just look at our entire history as sikhs. The earliest Sikhs favoured Iranian names.....The next lot of Sikhs favoured French army names....Then Indian names were in vogue....and now many English names.

In the bigger scheme of things its not a big deal. Our Sikh forefathers wern't too bothered about it so why are we ?

The name of our Sahibzada Zoravar Singh jee has been mispronounced by God knows how many people and they don't even know it. Instead of saying ਜ਼ੋਰਾਵਰ(Zoraavar) they all say ਜੋਰਾਵਾਰ(Joravaar)

This was from the early days of Sikhism where names (and names for things) from Iran were extremely popular. As its a common Iranian first name, and nations that are satellites of Iranian culture such as Armenia, the Persian pronounciation of it was never going to be exact for the Punjabi tongue in which the letter 'z' does not exist in everyday colloqial speech. Thus, in Punjabi, this persian name was always pronounced with a J.

Names get sliced up also either that or the poor kid gets saddled with a nonsense 'modern' name like Oceanpreet Singh (aha ji kya baat hai) Sonali Kiran Kaur (a cousin) of course she's doomed to think more like a hindu.

When you say 'nonsense modern' naming you mean in the same way that Sant Jarnail Singh Bhindrawale was named after a French army rank ?

Wow so you came to Punjab way back in the 80s to listen to Sant Ji's talks or Sant Ji came to UK to talk to you? And you have amazing memory for your age, man if have listened to Sant ji and still remember how he called Amritsar Ambarsar.

I said I haven't got any speeches sitting in my pocket just on the off-chance that someone randomly asks me to upload them.

If you have then you post them for us.

Either way, please tell us all what not having uploads and, for that matter, not knowing how to upload, has got to do with 'being in Punjab in the 80's' ? :ohno:

I wrote Sikhs call it Amritsar and Johnny explained why. Where did you read "non Sikh"?

Remember saying this JSinghnz ? : "Amritsar for Sikhs and Ambarsar for crude, backward Punjabis" :stupidme:

veera please provide an example because Sant ji's ucharan was impeccable and I can't think of hearing him with that thick accent to say it that way, maybe I'm wrong because I just loved listening to him I looked passed the distractions and to the message.

I don't have recordings to hand jkvlondon. I wouldn't even know how to access them now and put them on this website. I.T. is not my forte. But, like most of you, I have listened to his talks and I've also listened to kathas by so many eminent Sikh Giyanis. I've also listened to so many dhaddis singing about Amritsar. The one thing they all have in common is that they all pronounce the place as Ambarsar. They do so because they are talking and singing in Punjabi, and virtually all Punjabi speakers pronounce it as Ambarsar. What would be surprising is if they didn't say Ambarsar because then one would have to guess that Punjabi isn't their first language or mother tongue. Since the day the city was formed it has been called Ambarsar by Punjabis. Amritsar by non-Punjabis....but Ambarsar by native Punjabi speakers.

Please forgive me for not having the time to source his speeches but I'm sure its something you could do relatively easily.

Can you read or you just have to say something for the sake of it. For your understanding again we are talking about our Gurus who gave the name Amritsar and not about any Sant or Babas.

Do you not even know what you yourself have been saying ?

You've been referring to those that say 'Ambarsar' as "backward" and non-Sikh.

I don't know why.....I mean there must be a reason......but I just don't know why some of you are covering your eyes and ears and pretending that you just haven't seen or heard how Sant Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale, in his speeches, also used to call Amritsar 'Ambarsar'.

You see and read that and yet you still continue to label all those that do as 'illiterate backward pendus' and non-sikhs. :wow:

Technically, I can see the day coming when a disgruntled Sikh bride or groom applies to the Family Court to have her or his marriage declared null and void...i.e not a legal marriage at all, and use as a tool the clear illegal mistakes that are being made up and down the UK when it comes to the civil ceremony being conducted within the Gurdwara.

The Law on this issue is very clear. If that civil ceremony includes any religious aspect...or even conducted in a religious room....than it is, according to the Law, a failed marriage attempt.

I've been to weddings all over the UK where it is clear that the Gurdwara committee member conducting the ceremony doesn't really understand this aspect of the Law. In fact, I attended a wedding in the Midlands a couple of years ago where the civil ceremony was actually conducted in the darbar hall as the bride and groom were about to have their anand karaj.

The point is, the Sikh community and the Sikh Gurdwaras in the UK will only learn this harsh lesson when an actual case comes before the Courts. That day isn't too far away and there's no doubt it will open a pandora's box.