JagsawSingh

The Arora and Khatri Sikhs I've met around London etc not only marry within their same surname and extended family but the Arora ones even marry their own chacha, thaya, pooah and mammeh's sons and daughters. In fact, the exact same first cousin marriage custom as the muslims.

too many beggars.

You've labeled your thread 'The state of the Pinds' while describing the terrible situation in the towns and cities. Why ?

Animals like dogs are wandering the streets sifting through waste.

Again I ask, you've labeled your thread 'The state of the Pinds' while describing the terrible situation in the towns and cities. Why ?

There is a big drug problem along with prostitution.

Ten times worse in the cities and towns. So why the agenda against the pends ?

People here have a different mentality maybe because they need money for everything (healthcare, education etc. Resulting in becoming corrupt

You're far less likely to meet honest, humble down to earth people in Punjab's towns and cities, so why single out the pends ?

There is no waste collection and people just dump the rubbish.

Punjab's towns and cities are cesspits full of dirt, smell and filth whereas the pends have beautiful clean fresh air. So why single out the pends with your thread ?

You need to know someone here to do shopping, travel etc.

Yes thats very true. But seeing how you've made the thread about the pends and the pends usually will only have the odd small shop selling cha, Surf and toffee'an I would have thought you'd be more than capable of shopping for these small 5 rupaya items yourself.

Ya i also noticed this. i live in canada and some of my friends spoke a diff way then me n thts cos they were from jalandhar and my family is in moga district. i think punjabi spoken by majority here sounds similar to you cos alot of the pop in canada for punjabis is malwa region there r alot of doaba speakers too but i think malwai speakers have overtaken them in pop now lot of newer immigrant from punjab come from moga. also in canada there r alot of jatts and also huge rajput populations n also big pakistani punjabi/pahari speakers so that could be another reason why it sounds a little diff from doabi and more similar to your dialect n the only thing i no about american sikhs and punjabis is tht they r very americanized n speak english n not punjabi even at home.

:biggrin2: Sorry to laugh ghettosikh, but how have you "noticed" you sound like a man you've never heard before ?

You're a malwai and he speaks in a Majhail dialect that is only heard in deepest Sialkot district of Pakistan. So how have you "also noticed" that you sound like him ? :stupidme:

The two of you are almost made for each other. One has so little knowledge of Punjabi that he doesn't know how rural malwai is just as if not more 'pendu' in style than doabi and the other doesn't realise the accent he thinks is similar to his is as different to his as different could possibly be.

I dont think Muslims speak pure or genuine Punjabi because of the them mixing urdu with it and hence they speak a diluted version. They also are arabic origin hence they dont have the full grasp of the language as it is not in their true heritage

Like StarStriker said, there is just so much wrong with what you've written, I don't know where to start. So I won't.

We Sikhs don't own Punjabi, although I think it is more than fair to say we have been, and continue to be, the guardians of the language.

Languages naturally evolve over time and I do think we need to change a little, for our own sakes, because there is perhaps a bit too much overly religious Islamic terms in the language we speak, and I'm not talking about the classical Persian words which form such a rich part of our language and the history of it (including the word 'Punjab' itself). I'm talking about words that I myself, as a Sikh, feel uncomfortable using.

For example, the Punjabi word for bathroom literaly translates as 'the room one goes to prepare onself to read the Namaz'. Should we Sikhs be using words such as this ?

The Punjabi word itself is 'Gusulkhanna'. Now we know that khanna means room so the question is what does 'gusul' mean ?. Well, the word gusul comes from Mohammed and the Quran and it is the purification ritual Muslims must perform before they read their Namaz.

So you see what I;m saying here, as the guardians of the language we need to perhaps set the changes.

This has not changed from the times of the earliest native Punjabis that we are descended from such as the North Indian Hindu Brahmins.

You know full well Roudh that the brahmins themselves and all scholars outrightly reject your brahmin origin claim. Its just a claim that you yourselves constantly make but nobody else ever buys into as all scholars of Sikh history know full well that your people entered the Punjab at the onset of Sikhism after Sri Guru Nanak dev ji's travels into central and south India (and Ceylon).

As for the Pakistani Punjabis themselves, again as StarStriker stated, only a very very small number of them have any Arab blood. The vast majority of them have exactly the same dna as us. For example, the majority of Punjabi Jatts in this world are Pakistani Muslim and they have exactly the same surnames as us, and that is because they are from the same clans / families as us. Another example are the rich industrialists that own all the big businesses in Lahore. They call themsselves 'shaiks' but that is just the Muslim name for Khatri as many of the rich Hindu and Sikh industrialists converted to islam in 1947 rather than give up their vast wealth.

Yes, I will ask a linguist:)

Yes, ask a cunning one like yourself.

Rhythm and pitch are just accents,

No. Accents are just accents. Accents don't change the meaning of a word. Its just the same word said in a different accent.

Do you not speak Punjabi ?

I keep hearing that Punjabi is tonal, but I have my doubts. I can think of maybe two words in Punjabi that is tonal. Please give me some examples of Punjabi words which people think can be tonal.

You'll have to ask a linguist, my friend, for I am just a curious amateur historian but I'm sure you'll agree that if our rhythm, pitch and length of delivery changes the meaning of a word than it must be a tonal language ?

Bhatra Punjabi is more clear direct and better prounicated then Muslim Punjabi.

Punjabi knows no religious or caste boundaries. For example, there are 2 or 3 districts in Pakistan where the majority accent / dialect is the same doaba dialect that I speak (for those Muslims originated from Jalandhar which pre-partition had a Muslim majority). Even here in the UK, so many of my wife's Pakistani friends speak exactly the same way that she does. Partition turned everything upside down. For example, I can talk to a Sikh in Delhi and 9 times out of 10 I'll hear a Punjabi voice which history says belongs in Lahore. Then again I can go deep into Pakistan into Faisalabad and talk to a Muslim there but 9 times out of 10 I'll hear a Punjabi voice that history says belongs in Jalandhar. It is a special language. It knows no caste or creed.

But I will say Nanakey have a more gentle style, vocabulary and rhythm of speaking comparatively

Yes I know what you mean and that is a very sweet mitti mitti Punjabi but I would wander if that is the way Punjabi is supposed to be. You see, as well as being a truly ancient language (900 years older than Hindi and 1900 years older than Urdu) Punjabi is truly unique in that it is the only tonal language in the whole of south Asia. In that tonal regard, it is one of a rare select group of very few languages including Finnish and some Chinese languages). I would suggest that it is supposed to be spoken in the way that South Koreans speak their language...i.e with loud emotion and pitches which give the outsider the impression that the speaker is arguing. I'm really not a fan of this whole monotone emotionless mitti style thats creeping in with the influence of Hindi and Urdu. Thats not the way Punjabi is supposed to be spoken.

So are you saying most UK punjabis are from Jalandhar ie east Punjab hence why they speak in that dilect??

Not just 'UK' Punjabis but it is also the most common dialect / accent in Canada, California, Italy, New Zealand etc. The only exception to this rule is Malaysia, Singapore, Fiji and the very old Sikh communities of Australia. They are mostly Majha people.

But going back to the UK phenomenon, you also have the East African ramgharias added to the dynamics on a large scale and most of them also originate from villages in doaba and so also have an accent more akin to doaba than anything else.

so Dad was from near Moga and Mum was from Kamalpura tehsil Jagroan they used to do this little thing about salt she Noon he No , Loon are they actually from different dialects ? I wasn't that lucky my Dada ji only ever spent three months with me and my Dadi ji died when I was one so I am not sure of any deeper differences ... it's funny how our language is what unites yet divides us.

No they are both speakers of the Malwa dialect in close vicinity to one another. It could be that your mum and dad just liked disagreeing with each other for no good reason. :biggrin2:

You know, you can stand in a village on the edge of the Sutlej in doaba and quite literaly do a 5 second walk across the dry river to a village in Malwa. Its always been that way. But up until this last 2 decades the two never crossed paths. They had totally different accents. Totally different words for things. Different clothes styles. Different customs. Different music and dance. Difference in food. Never, ever married each other. That little river, which in some parts was only psychological because there was no actual water, meant it was like crossing into a different continent. Its only in the last 2 decades, as the malwais have joined the doaba walleh abroad, that the 2 have started mixing with each other.

Lets not forget though, that being a free independant country for a couple of generations played a great role in shaping the psyche of those north of the Sutlej. I say this because the Malwais (ludhiana, Moga etc) were never part of the Sikh Kingdom of Punjab. When grandfather, father and son were a suzerainty it shapes the mind in a different way to one who spent a lifetime as a vassal of a suzerainty.

However, I also find that Canadian/American Punjabi sounds more similar to what I speak then the UK Punjabis

The Canadian and American Sikhs are the kith and kin of we UK Punjabis, i.e one brother in the UK, the other sister in Vancouver, the older brother in California etc. Thats the way it is with the majority of UK Sikhs. They are not strangers to us. They are close family members brought up in the same household and so speak exactly the same doaba and malwa dialects as we do in the UK. Exactly the same.

It's nothing to do with certain 'communities' as you put it. For example there are bhatras in Hoshiarpur, Jalandhar and Ludhiana and they speak in the same doaba and malwa dialect as we do. They do so because that is the dialect one speaks if one is from those areas. It just so happens that the vast majority of the UK bhatras originate from one small area in Sialkot and so you speak in that Sialkot twang of the majha dialect.

Jagsaw Singh, I'm

Not an only child, I have one younger brother

Well then you really want to sit down with your mum and dad and have a heart to heart with them. I know someone above called it a lose lose situation but the way I see it you are in a win win situation. Sit down and talk to them about Sikhi, and how it knows no caste and hopefully they'll learn something from you and embrace the situation. Happy days. :cool2:

If, on the other hand, despite your talk, they remain stubbornly in their caste ways, then join them and remind them how the khatris are, and always have been, far superior to we Jatts and it would be a great honour for your family to gain a "high caste" daughter in law. Happy days. :cool2:

Either way, you can't lose.

Lots of unkowns here. For example is the original poster an only child ? If that was the case one might understand the mother's wish to gain a daughter she never had etc.

In the end though....our parents can't help but use a little emotional blackmail. It's only temporary though. They soon come round and will, in time, appreciate you marrying a good Sikh girl (assuming of course she is a good one ?)

Small things amuse small minds.

The Sangat is least interested or delighted in your narrow minded, casteist, mindset.

In fact we are all sick of it.

Oooh I think you'd find KHUL KARAN DI RASAM and MOURVI MAKAAN more than interesting. In fact you'd find it shocking, not to mention disturbing that any group identifying themselves as 'Sikhs' could have such practices.

If however, you prefer to live your life in the dark, frightened of picking up information and knowledge about things going on around you, then obviously I understand your reluctance to learn anything new.

I do respect Roudh's wish to articulate his community's culture and traditions. It's obviously something that means alot to him, although I do find his constant theme of 'bhatra's being the most strict and traditional Sikhs' somewhat confusing, if not difficult to swallow.

Perhaps, Roudh, you can educate us further on the Bhatt Sikhs by giving a good explanation about 2 very curious traditions bhatra Sikhs have, namely:

1. KHUL KARAN DI RASAM and....
2. MOURVI MAKAAN

I notice you deliberately left many traditions, including the 2 above, out of the long lectures you've given us on a couple of threads. I'm sure the rest of the sangat here would be delighted to know what the 2 above relate to and it will, of course, help make up their minds as to 'how good a Sikhs' the bhatras are. ????

Hi i do not drink or smoke

Thats pretty unusual for a homeless.

I was told that white peole are not allowed in here..

I really very much doubt they said that.

I'm not a fan of this whole renaming business that goes on in the sub-continent. It like the Indians, they keep renaming things because they say they "want to put things back to how they were before the British came". So they rename Bombay 'Mumbhai', Calcutta 'Kolkata', Madras 'Chennai' etc. But what I don't understand is if they are so genuine about 'restoring things back to how they were before the British came' why don't they restore Punjab back to being it's own independant Sikh nation ? After all, thats how it was before the British came and made it different. No, when it comes to Punjab and the Sikhs they get afflicted by a temporary memory loss which makes them forget they have a policy of 'restoring things back to how they were before the British came'.

But, when it comes to Arungzeb Road there's no doubt that it is as ridiculous as having a 'Hitler Road' in Berlin and epecting Jews to be happy about it. And its not like the road itself is historically connected to Arungzeb himself, as its a relatively modern road named after him relatively recently. As the people that decided to name the road 'Arungzeb' are obviously extremely dense and ill-informed I'd like to think we can narrow their identity down to a few people. Unfortunately, as the 'restoring things back to how they were before the British came' debacle demonstrates, being dense and ill-informed is very much the norm in India, so we can only narrow it down to the nearest 900 million.

So th problem is not just abroad but in th very land where punjabi originated.

I think you missed the common point most have been making on this thread, i.e the fact that Punjabi is thriving and being saved "abroad" more than it as ever been done before. The problem is purely within India.

also.....gorh (jaggery) and Pinnia (especially alsi di pinnia),

This sikh blogger in question on this thread, had an interview on bbc asian network, on nihals show, presented by tina daheley. check it out. BTW she is an amritdhari.

Where's your chemotherapy theory now gurdssingh ? :biggrin2:

From what I recall in pre-partition Punjab, there were a group of Muslims that used to read bani at the Gurdwaras. I only know this because there was a partition era drama that used to be on TV about 20 or so years ago. If anyone knows more about this, please post.

Try reading everything already said on this thread, brother.

Awesome movie. Pin drop silence in the threatre at the end of the movie.

No silence in the Cinema when I saw it. Just non-stop Jaikare, emanating from the little kids. The first Jaikara started as soon as the end credits started and that was an adult, but then the little ones took over with so much vigour. In the dark, all around the room, there were these tiny voices roaring so loud, one after the other, basically indirectly telling us adults in the audience the following : "We've learned something from the movie......have you ?"

Weren't Mirasis originally sufi though?

Most Mirasis as a whole are not sufis. Some are though and among them are those that belong to the Kalanot variation. They themselves describe their whole history as performers of bards of sikh history. The whole relationship between Mirasis and rural Sikhs however goes way beyond the realms of sufism, as many if not most of the Mirasis that kept the oral history of each rural Sikh family was a regular Sunni, rather than sufi. Whilst urban Sikhs had a tradition of preserving written family genealogy records at places like Kiratpur and Haridwar the rural Sikhs had a unique personal relationship with clans of Muslim Mirasis who's function was solely to be orally expert in the history of the Sikhs. (Mirasi, by very definition, means 'keeper of the heritage' - from the Arabic word 'Miras' which means 'heritage')

The unique Mirasi relationship aside though, we Sikhs do need to acknowledge certain truths when it comes to Muslims. I think it is a mistake when we sometimes say things like "the first stone of the Golden Temple was laid by a Muslim", "Guru Nanak's constant companion was a Muslim" or "Muslims claim Guru Nanak as their own". I say mistakes, because although they are factually correct, they don't by themselves tell the whole story. For example, Guru Nanak Dev ji's companion, Bhai Mardana, was an Iranian Shia, and the Shias knew exactly how cruel extremist Sunni rule can be. Mian Mir, who laid the Amritsar foundation stone was a Sufi, and sufis know exactly how cruel extremist Sunni rule can be. The 'Muslims' that claim Guru Nanak as their own are in fact Ahmadyans, and Muslims do not recognise them as Muslims, and so they know exactly how cruel Sunni rule can be. (We call them Ahmadyans but most of the Islamic world calls them Quadians, after the village Quadian in District Gurdaspur, Punjab, as their religion was founded in that Sikh heartland and heavily influenced by the teachings of Guru Nanak). The Pakistan constitution refuses to recognise them as Muslims and many thousands of them have been killed in bombings in Pakistan in the last couple of years.

The common theme here is that the 'Muslims' that have had a close relationship with us, turn out to be groups that, just like us, have experienced, the harsh rule of Sunnism.

How do you know she had the brows done? Looks like it, but some also have naturally like that ( very few, but it is possible),

Is make up forbidden or frowned upon? How you know she even wore a Kirpan or is amritdhari in the first place, like no males would dare to wear a dastar or trim facial hair if not had Amrit?

I don't know. Which is why we're all interested to know from her (or anybody that knows her) if she is / was because.....she will become the first Sikh woman in the history of mankind to adopt an amritdhari's dastar without being amritdhari. Unless, of course, you think it is extremely common around the world and there are thousands of them ?????