JagsawSingh

WJKK WJKF

Sorry disagree, kirtan is not a family tradition or culture, it's the norm for Sikhs rural or urban. Kirtan being an integral part of sikhi, the very method Guru Nanak Dev Ji utilised as to reach the hearts of people he met on his travels.

I wasn't talking about Kirtan. I was talking about tradition, culture and language, which was I specifically mentioned the words "tradition" "culture" and "language".

Lastly, I want to say that one might not agree with the make-up

What you mean "don't agree" ? Thats like saying "I know some of you don't agree with murder and rape but..." :stupidme:

There is no debate about the issue. It is not an issue that has different sides of opinion. Everybody, except you, knows that as n amritdhari dastar wearer she can not, under any circumstances, trim her eyebrows / make-up etc. If she wants to do that, thats fine, but she obviously needs to take off the dastar. As you can see from all her photos, she has actually taken off her kirpan and so is actually probably no longer an amritdhari. However, she has chosen to keep the dastar because it is her gimmick / tool for career publicity.

It's pretty much the male version of the same thing

You obviously possess a dodgy dictionary that has a strange definition of the words "same thing" but how exactly are people making it clear they are trimmed non-amritdharis be the "same thing" as someone making it clear they ARE Amritdhari ?

WJKK WJKF

Yea probably a difference in location then however many members of my family were kirtani jathas, originally lahore de sikh.

Rural Punjab v Urban Punjab = A world apart sometimes.

On many levels, traditions, culture and language etc is as different as Poland is from Sweden.

As conversations on this very forum testify, western Sikhs from an urban background mistakingly believe their family traditions and culture to be the norm among all Sikhs and vice versa for the rural Sikhs.

I have personally come across quite a few people within your caste in which the older generations are now selling their land due to the younger generation not being bothered and also because they moved out of Punjab and reside in another country,

Because it is arguably THE most expensive agricultural land in the world (i.e 1 acre in Punjab can buy you between 15 and 20 acres in the UK, between 50 and 100 acres in Canada etc) the majority of agricultural landowners in Punjab are 'millionaiires on paper'. As humans, we all sometimes have reasons for an injection of capital, be it a business venture or, as you mentioned, offspring wishing for money to buy a house etc, and so selling land in Punjab is an option that is always there. Given the diaspora, it is always a sellers market regardless of the economy, where, once someone finds out you may be interested in selling, buying arrive with suitcases full of money ready to outbid each other. The Canadian and Italian diaspora especially big in this regard.

why don't you take your kids and family back to your rural village?

I do. We all do. My children and we go back twice a year. In fact, now that we're in November, this is the peak time when villages in Punjab are jam packed with little cokneys, brummies, californians, vancouverites and Italians. Sikh children all over the globe just love it on the farms there. They detest the dirt, filth, smell etc of the towns and cities but absolutely adore the clean life on the farms.

If you're referring to actual farming, like you are, do you also write letters to the UK's biggest landlords and ask them why they and their kids are not farming their lands themselves ?

There is, my friend, a big difference between landowners and farm-workers. All over earth, and Punjab is no different, the land owners are 'overseers' of farming. They oversee the work and my children are quickly learning all there is to learn in this regard thank you very much.

I don't see many "jatt" migrating back to their rural villages in India to once again, continue farming however I do recognise the numbers immigrating to countries like Italy, Dubai, Uk, Canada and Malaysia etc?

Well thats very true and I'm glad you've mentioned it. You see, of the world-wide Sikh diaspora, we in the UK are the only ones where farming has not played a significant part in the national Sikhs. In the USA for example, Sikhs are the nations single largest producers of fruit and nuts. In Canada, they own and farm wheat farms so big you need a light plane to reach the other end. Dairy farming in Italy. Tea plantations in Malaysia etc.

WJKK WJKF

Veer ji, I think after the Sakhi of Balvand Rai and his brother Satta dhoom within the time of our Guru Arjan Dev ji, learning kirtan was encouraged by our guru and was then undertaken by his sikh, no longer continuing with the tradition of the the musical trained mirasi.

No, the Muslim mirasis performing kirtan in the Gurdwaras was still the norm in most rural Gurdwaras in Punjab right up until August 1947. As you mentioned, it was perhaps different in the historical Gurdwaras of the large towns and cities.

The Number of Bhats in the UK is probably around 150.000 to 200.000

You mentioned earlier in this thread Roudh, how many Bhatras are mving into traditional Sikh towns and cities. That really is a great thing because it brings all of us Sikhs together and hopefully removes the long standing isolation. Together, we can all learn so much from each other and slowly but surely drop our respective bad habits and find some common ground. Right now, being isolated away from the other Sikhs, it is apparant that you have a very distorted view about your numbers. Officially, the otal number of Sikhs in the UK is 410,000. Of that number, the Bhatras a very small minority.....I would guess between 5 and 10%. Even at the highest percentage, there would be at most 40,000 bhatras in the UK.

If your jatt caste have so much love and pride for your caste, way of life and ancestors, why did you sell your land and move from panjab?

The only pride I have is that of being a Sikh. If you imagine I've written anywhere that I'm proud of being a 'Jatt' than you are mistaken Sikhseeker.

I think you will have to search far and wide before you find a jatt Sikh in the UK that has actually sold his or land in Punjab. Not only is it one of the most fertile agricultural lands on earth it is also some of the most expensive (1 acre in Punjab costs the same as between 10 and 20 acres in the UK), with prices always rising. My children love sending there holidays on the farm there and I think it woud be so beautiful if all Skh children in the UK, regardless of their background (urban or rural), could enjoy the same. The lush green fiels, the fresh cclean air, the animals. It really is my dream that all our communities here get closer together as a tight knit family unit where kids from a bhatra background can also experience the Punjabi farm joy.

WJKK WJKF

Jagsaw Singh, I am waiting on your reply veer ji?

Reply to what, brother ?

I think this thread has had it's day and I'm glad the admins have locked the new one started.

But....if you're referring to the description you gave about your own family history, and the way your grandmother and other females, performed wonderfully after so much hardship than of course I understand and appreciate that. But where I feel you are wrong, is the way in which you prescribe your own family's experience to everyone else.

In normal circumstances, no limits should be placed on a Sikh....and a 'Sikh' has no gender. A Sikh can be a male or a female. Both as 'Sikhs' and 'Punjabis' our females have always worked out in the fields, always been warriors out in the battlefield. THAT, is our tradition. So you have to understand that as 'Sikhs' and 'Punjabis' the western model of the housewife at home whilst husband earns a living is totally alien to our history and psyche. But things have got a little topsy turvy...upside down in that we now have Sikhs that believe Sikh females should not be out earning a living and term those that do as 'western' influenced. This is madness. :stupidme:

But the thing is that our background does play such an important part in shaping our psyche. For the Jatt Sikhs, the calvinist thinking that hard work is a route to salvation is so deeply held it will take another couple of centuries to break. For example, there are so many aunties of mine that live in £2 million houses in Norwood Green and Osterley etc, i.e hardly short of money, and yet they continue to work up to 60 hours per week as cleaners in local hospitals and schools. That calvinist hard work as a route to salvation ethic is just so deeply inbedded in the Jatt Sikh's character. Lets take my example for a moment. Seriously, as I haven't got funding for my research and having to pay my way through my doctorate, I have to earn a living whilst studying. In all honesty, with my qualifications I could relatively easily get a job so much easier and paying so much more than what I'm earning now. But there's just something within me, something spiritual, that requires me to fulfill hard physical, manual work in order to feel spiritually connected. Its a Jatt thing for sure but I'd like to feel it was a Sikh thing because we jatt sikhs have always referred to it as the Sikh work ethic. Evidentally though, sadly, there are many Sikh groups that do not possess it.

Thats how it always was in most Gurdwaras in Punjab, from our Gurus' time right up until August 1947.

Traditionally, it was the function of Muslim Mirasis to perform kirtans in Gurdwaras. We Sikhs only took that function over relatively recently, in 1947.

I saw it a few days ago. Cinema was packed and I don't think the theatre staff had any idea what kind of demand for this movie there would be.

I'll be honest, I initially didn't want to go because I expected another low quality, badly directed melodramatic Indian film. My wife talked me into it and I'm so glad she did. It was beautifull. The animation quality is as good as Shrek and I wouldn't be surprised if it had a similar budget. This is top quality.

The people behind it are the Hindu dera group Bharatiya Yuvak Sangh.

Our people in India are too stupid and gullible to be able to stop it. A few weeks agao a Sikh delagtion from Amritsar went to the dera in Jharkand saying that it cannot be allowed. The dera turned around and said "OK" "we'll model it on the Hindu Durgiana Temple in Amritsar instead". The Sikh group said "Thanks" "that'll be good".

As soon as the Sikh group left the Hindu group must have had a right good chuckle at the stupidity and gullibility of the Sikhs.

The Durgiana Temple in Amritsar is a direct copy of the Sikh Golden Temple. Thus, this new copy will be another direct copy of the Golden Temple.

Don't expect Sikhs in India to be able to do something about this. They more than live up to their Indian media stereotype.

Karan Kaur seems to be a walking talking contradiction.

Dastar, and yet clearly cut and styled eyebrows.

Dastar, and yet covered in make-up.

Dastar, and yet no kirpan.

Why exactly is she wearing a dastar ?

I can't help feeling she's using it as a gimmick to get ahead.

From reading the posts, what's evident is by the person who posted this topic and other contributors that one thing people have failed to realise is that when a sikhs wife is at home, they simply don't sit idle? Being a mother and learning your children about sikhi is much more important than a factory job or being a lawyer. It's our mothers who provide the initial passion within their children's minds for sikhi. Becoming "modernised" does not mean becoming more sikh. When I was young I can remember my grandmothers and sisters preparing to hold the gurus diwan and my grandmother reading the hukamnama. See, the modernisation these so called "Sikhs" are conversing about is the equality of men and women within a western ideology, not equality from a sikh perspective.

If your dad, uncles and brothers are too lazy to do housework tell them to pull their finger out.

If your brothers, dad and uncles are too dim to be able to make roti tell them to learn.

Was your grandad so incapable of preparing to hold the Guru's diwan that your grandmother had to do it ?

Was there something on the television your grandad couldn't possibly miss that only your grandmother could read the hukamnama ?

Have any of the men in generations of your family ever been capable of doing anything themselves ?

Whatever point you attempted to make 'Sikhiseeker' tells us more about the inherent male misogyny in your family than anything else.

Your pathetic attempt to justify disgusting and totally un-Sikh gender inequality in the name of 'motherhood' is highly offensive to generations of Sikh women. Pre-Sikhi, our female ancestors in Punjab were famous for working as hard as the men. With Sikhi, they were at the forefront in the battlefield. You attempt to justify your misogyny in the name of 'tradition' and 'not being western' yet you fail to realise that the gender equality our Guru's espoused was many hundreds of years ahead of any such equality in the west. When it comes to gender equality the 'western modernists' have learned from us.......not us from them.

I take it you are not a hypocrite and you strongly believe Mai Bhaggo was way too 'modern' and 'western' and an embarrassment to her family being out on horseback fighting when she should have been at home getting her husband's cha, roti and sabji ready ?????

And Mehtab Singh, now that you've started pasting really really long lists of 'Caste' surnames on this Sikh forum are we all to expect long lists of ramgharia, khatri and jatt surnames any time soon....or were you just having a silly moment ?

Bhatras being the oldest community of Sikhs

You seem to be obessed by your 'caste' Roudh. This obssession has clouded your reasoning as the Khatris are the oldest community of Sikhs.

We are also generally known to be more religious and have a stronger belief in our faith then other Sikh groups. This is due to our very orthodox upbringing having been in the Punjab since the times of Guru Nanak Dev Ji has instilled a greater sense of honour and pride in our religion this makes us adhere to the Khalsa beliefs by being more committed, dedicated and strong in our beliefs as Sikhs.

There is a world of difference between how you perceive yourself and how others perceive you. I think you might find common consensus among the wider Sikh community is that the Bhatras have practices that are extremely un-Sikh.

There is nothing Sikh...nothing Khalsa....about women keeping the veil.

There is nothing Sikh....nothing Khalsa....about Sikh women keeping chundh in front of SGGS ji in the Gurdwara.

There is nothing Sikh.....nothing Khalsa....about keeping rings in your noses like bulls and enough shabby chic jewellery that would make even a gypsy blush.

There is nothing Sikh....nothing Khalsa about marriage dowries.

There is nothing Sikh...nothing Khalsa.... about a community where something like zero percent of the females have a dastar.

There is nothing Sikh.....nothing Khalsa....about a community that practices widespread fortune telling and palm reading for a living.

There is nothing Sikh....nothing Khalsa....about habitually murdering and then eating like cannibals god's animals.

There is nothing Sikh...nothing Khalsa...about being of the mindset that the Khalsa is only for males and females do not count.

I suggest, Roudh, you stop this casteist nonsense and re-evaluate what you percieve to be your community's reputation. The best start for this is acknowledging the fact that 50% of Sikhs are female. These 50% are not some sort of sub-standard low value human beings. They are Sikhs.

Complex senstive topic

Really ? :wow:

'Complex' how ?

Christians and their priests don't let a non-christian marry a christian in their Churches. Why don't they see it as a 'complex' issue ?

Jews and their rabbis don't let a non-jew marry a Jew in their Synagogues. Why don't they see it as a 'complex' issue ?

Muslims and theor priests don't let a non-Muslim marry a muslim in their Mosques. Why don't they see it as a 'complex' issue ?

I'll tell you why....Its because it's NOT a complex issue. Our Sikh rule about not allowing non-Sikhs to make a mockery of our religion and marry in the Gurdwaras is exactly the same as the rule Christians, Jews and Muslims have. This rule is the worldwide normal and moderate rule.

igSawSingh, I think you have gone slightly off topic.

You seem to be making a mistake that lot of people make by judging an entire community based on seeing a handful of Bhatras and coming up with assumptions based on little evidence. Yes there maybe some Bhats who are slightly darker skinned but. Just because you maybe slightly darker does not mean you are from south India. There are many Jats that are dark skinned does that mean they are not native to Punjab?

I think you're mixing me up with someone else Roudh. I've never mentioned skin colour. Its not something that has any place in my life.

If we was from south India. We would not be into Nihang traditions and sword fighting. We would all be dal eating vegetarians. But the Bhats are known for chopping up Goats like the Nihangs. We are in essence the real, authentic and original Punjabis.

Your traditions Roudh stem more from the couple of hundred years the Bhatra Sikh community spent living alongside a largely Mulsim population in the Sialkot area of Punjab (Pakistan). I actually salute the Bhatras for this but what they did, whilst being a tiny minority surrounded by a massive muslim majority, was to go that extra mile to not only assert their 'Sikhness' but also blatantly and positively do the things that Muslims could not do...such as eating copious amounts of jatka meat. On the negative side though, they did pick up the muslim habit of seeing their respectve faiths for males only and not fully embracing the gender equality and gender freedom the other Sikh groups practiced.

However, having said all that, we must all remember that the year is now 2014 and none of us are living in Sialkot or any other area of what is now Pakistan and so none of us need to do things just to rub it in the faces of muslims.. Now, is the time to educate ourselves about what Sikhi really is, and real Sikhi is not about murdering and then eating like cannibals god's animals.

Going back to the earlier point we discussing though, I can assure you that the origin of the Bhatras does indeed lie in central India (Uttar Pradesh and below). Rather than deny that fact I feel Bhatras like yourself should embrace that truth and be proud of it because you came to the Punjab as some of the first Sikhs as it were. Many centuries before most of us your people saw the light that Sri Guru Nanak Dev ji shone and, following from his teachings to you whilst on his travels in south and central India, your people came to the Punjab as Sikhs and relayed that truth to the Punjabis.

In The Jat community many work in low skilled Jobs in factories even now. Ie in sandwich /catering factories. But you won’t find any Bhats in these Jobs.

Its the Sikh work ethic Roudh, and it is what differentiates us from the Muslims. It is also, in many ways, what, for the past 100 years or so, marked the Bhatras out as being very different from the other Sikh groups. That work ethic and the long held Punjabi female spirit of hard physical work had, up until now, been sorely lacking among the Bhatras. It is worth us remembering at this point, the letter Alexander the Great sent home to his mother in Greece when he reached Punjab. His letter stated that it was unlike any land he had attempted to conquer before as the Punjabi women would work the fields as much as the men. You see, my friend, in this regard Sikhi is similar to Calvanism in that most Sikhs, especially the jatts, believe that hard work is a route to salvation.

I myself am studying for my doctorate but earn my keep by working hard physical low paid manual labour in warehouses for minimum wage. It is part of my psyche, as a Sikh, to do that. I will happily clean toilets too. Its an honest living.

So, in that regard, one should at this point refer back to that book by Denzil you mentioned a number of times in your last post. According to The Glossary of the Tribes and Castes of the Punjab and British historians of British India, Bhatras were not considered ethnic Punjabi and their heritage was attributed to central India, specifically Uttar Pradesh. Those historians state that of all the Sikh communities the Bhatras are the only ones that were not native to the Punjab and only entered the Punjab after embracing Sikhism given Sri Guru Nanak Dev ji's travels in central and southern India. I'm not saying they're right in their assessment but you have to admit it does somewhat explain the missing inherent Punjabi / Sikh spirit of gender equality and calvanist work ethic.

I agree that there is a problem with some Sikhs in India having an inferiority complex about Punjabi and preferring Hindi but I certainly don't think thats the case in the west. Perhaps thats because the Sikhs in the west are better informed and know that Punjabi is a full 900 years older than Hindi and that Punjabi, as well as being the language of our faith, is also the language of poetry and song. Thats why, in the west, Hindi as a language is as dead as a dodo. It is seen for what it actually is: a pointless, worthless new(ish) language without history and purpose.

So, I really don't see the point of this thread.

Listen to how well Sikh kids in the west today speak Punjabi and compare it to how badly my generation born in the west spoke Punjabi. This current generation puts us to shame. I mean how many of us in the previous 1 or 2 generations of western born can actually read and write Punjabi ? I certainly can't and hardly any of my cousins can but my children and many of my cousins' children can.

Just examine the facts: More Sikhs in the west speaking Punjabi than ever before.........The Sikhs in the west speaking better Punjabi than ever before. Such a respected language it's part of the national curriculum in western schools. Such a respected language that non-Asians are learning it more than ever before (I think I'm correct in saying that Chinese students have been consistently scoring some of the highest marks in Punjabi exams in schools in British Columbia ?)

Is this thread, and the posts within it, indicative of our national characteristic of always being pessimists seeing the glass as perrenially half empty ?

Bhatra community it seems is an older Sikh community and it seems that they would arrived by boat. It seems that for this reason they would be based in port based coastal cities and towns.

The Bhatras are definately Britain's oldest Sikh community but its worth mentioning that alot of the older established jatt Sikh communities in the UK also arrived by boat (my grandfather included) and the huge old and established Sikh community in Southampton is testament to that.

The later Sikhs would have based themselves in more industrial areas. The reason why there are Sikhs in the Southall area is because of a Rubber Factory which was owned by some ex military person who served with many Sikhs. I presume that Birmingham and West Midlands again attracted Siks due to the abundance of factory/assembly work.

It's quite interesting actually because my grandfather was one of those pioneers at Woolf's rubber factory in Southall. He, along with the majority of jatt Sikhs settled in the UK between the mid 1940's and mid 50's, lived alongside the bhatra Sikhs in the East End of London around Aldgate. As Aldgate is these days very much a commercial part of the City its hard to imagine how, in those days, it was very much a slum residential area. I am told that, although they all lived in the East End half of them commuted west each day to work in Southall and the other half were bussed to work eastwards at the paper factory in Gravesend. Both these factories were owned by industrialists that were fond of Sikhs as they served alongside them in the army and to this day those 2 towns (Southall and Gravesend) remain Britain's 2 largest Sikh towns. Like the Hugeonots, Jews and Irish before them they naturally moved away from that East End slum closer to those 2 areas. But I'm glad you mentioned the rubber factory because people often mistakingly think the massive Sikh population in western London is there because of it's proximity to the airport and the work opportunities there. The fact is that the foundation of this community was not the airport but factories such as Woolf's, the Margarine factory etc. Later arrivals naturally settled where these pioneers had already laid the foundation and were fortunate that it offered opportunities at the airport for work.

were there many bhatras serving in the british indian army aswel?

There were no bhatras serving in the British Army. The British were actually quite racist and elitist in their views of the different Sikh communities and had strict rules of only recruiting Jatts and, to a lesser etend, mazhabis. In fact, the British had an extremely racist and discriminatory view of bhatras as demonstrated by Denzil's Glossary of the Tribes and Castes of the Punjab. In that book, Denzil describes bhatras as vagabonds and gypsies.

No, the bhatras came to the UK as peddlars, selling things like cleaning cloths and fabrics door to door up and down the country with a suitcase full of wares. As they have a strict policy, similar to Muslims, of their womenfolk not working for a living, they don't have the same tradition of working in factories etc.

They are mostly concentrated in the original places they migrated to in the UK. These include areas near sea ports such as Glasgow, Edinburgh, Manchester, Southampton, Cardiff, Swansea, Doncaster, Preston, Newcastle , Liverpool. In these areas the Bhat community make up the Majority of the Sikh community in all these areas.

Thats definately true of the other cities you mentioned but definately not Southampton. I think the fact that Southampton has one bhatt sangat Gurdwara and 3 large non-bhatt Gurdwaras (Singh Sabha and Nanaksar etc) is testament to that. And, I think I might be correct in saying that the non-bhatt Sikh groups have massively overtaken bhatras in terms of population in Glasgow over the last decade or so given the massive influx of freshies there. But you're right, Manchester, Liverpool, Preston, Portsmouth and Cardiff Sikhs are overwhelmingly bhatra and, interestingly enough, the majority of Sikhs that live in the traditional Muslim areas of eastern Birmingham such as Balsall Heath (most other Birmingham Sikhs live in the north western parts of the city such as Handsworth, Smethwick etc). One thing I hope you'll be able to shed some light on Roudh, because I've always wandered : One the UK's oldest Gurdwaras is the bhatra Gurdwara in the real East End of London (Campbell Road in Bow). I've always wandered why it was founded in Bow when history tells us that the Sikhs of the East End in the 1920's all the way up to the late 1950's lived in the Aldgate end of the East End (not Bow). Why was Bow chosen ?

In relation to your question I am not 100% sure of that but I got this info regarding your question from Wikipedia

No offence, but quite possibly the worst way to start a post.

From what I've noticed the younger (and even older UK, Canada and American born etc) absolutely adore simran but absolutely abhor dhadis. They detest it.

I'm gonna be honest here and say that I usually get up and go downstairs to the langar hall whenever the dhadi ragis come on stage. It's a musical artform that is at least 100 years past it's sell-by date and is, quite frankly, usually somewhat offensive to the ears.

Beautifull kirtan, simran, is what draws the younger sangat towards the gurdwara. Even when they can't understand it the sheer blissful beauty draws them in. The dhadis have the complete opposite effect.

I do sometimes worry about the self-loathing of some 'Punjabis'. They seem to have no self worth and in their zeal to appear 'modern' and what they think is 'western' they lose touch with the reality of the real world.

In the real world I, as a Sikh, cannot be married by a Christian priest in a Christian Church. Because I'm not a Christian the curch won't allow it. As of yet, I've yet to hear of any 'christian' on earth who has such an inferiority complex that he thinks I, or you, should be allowed. Possibly because they have enough common sense to realise that it would be sheer folly and a sham, not to mention a mockery of the religion, for a non-christian to pretend to be christian for a day and partake in christian vows.

In the real world I, as a Sikh, am banned from getting married in a Jewish Synagogue. Because I'm not a Jew they won't allow it. As of yet, I've never heard of any Jew on earth who has such self loathing and an inferiority complex that he or she thinks I, or YOU, should be allowed. Possibly because he or she has enough common sense to realise that it would be sheer folly and a sham, not to mention a mockery of the religion, for a non-Jew to pretend to be Jewish for a day and partake in Jewish vows.

So you see, these 'Punjabis' who want non-Sikhs to be allowed to pretend to be a Sikh and marry in a Gurdwara are not 'modern' and 'western' at all. For the 'modernists' and the 'westerners' have exactly the same rule as we Sikhs.

No, what these Punjabis are, are extremists with views that totally contradict with virtually every person of every faith in the entire universe. In other words, complete weirdos.

So many emotions when watching that clip. Shame followed by anger are the 2 biggest.

The blame lies squarely with the disgusting SGPC. They are are a descipable group of cretins.They are actively encouraging this sort of Bollywood hero worship, especially when you consider the new VIP entrance they've initiated at the Golden Temple. Now that is something that goes against the very heart of Harminder Sahib signifies. Something urgently needs to be done about them.

The drug situation is definitely harder to combat as they are usually very aggressive and have contingencies if a person is taken off the streets , I would agree that this is a job that needs to be run by the police but supported by the community as a whole. Main thing is it would have to be run outside the whole Gurudwara committee thing as it cannot be subject to the political whims of a few individuals.

From my very first message I think you can get the impression that it is clearly the situation in Southall that provides the catalyst for this thread. So, bearing that in mind, to get a better understanding of it, you'll need to detach yourself from everything you know about the drug dealing / crime situation everywhere else (such as Hackney).

Go to Southall at dusk, and stay there until dawn. You'll see and experience a Southall far removed from the shopping trips you've ever been on during the days on the Broadway. It is now the biggest red light area in the whole of London. Jam packed with them. Apne Punjabi heroin addicts everywhere walking about like zombies. Hundreds of them. Apne crack addicts walking about menacingly. Hundreds of them. Apne dealers and pimps blighting the community. But, as I said before, you don't really need to wait for the dark. Southall's full of them during the day too.

So, if I can respectfully say, as you have next to zero life experience of living in any of the traditional Sikh neighbourhoods in the UK, you do seem tto lack insight about what this thread is about.