JagsawSingh

I said this SSD:

so the whole town is OUR community.

Its in English and its clear. Re-read it a couple of times if you're having difficuty understanding it.

I've got to presume you had trouble reading and understanding the English language words else why on earth would someone describe me as a "bigot" and "racist" for suggesting Sikhs protect the vulnerable members of their community and, at the same time reclaim their community (neighbourhoods) from dealers, pimps, addicts and gangbangers ?

Please my friend, do not throw around words like 'bigot' and 'racist' at will. They are not nice accusations and its certainly not nice for the one on the receiving end. Especially when you consider how the 'scum' dealers and addcits in Southall this thread is alluding to, are our own Punjabis. If you're suggesting its possible to be bigoted and racist against yourself then may I politely suggest you invest in a dictionary and look up the words ?

they only care about their own not the whole neighbourhood

Yes and thats exactly what I'm calling for, on both counts:

1. Just like them, we need to look after OUR OWN community, i.e our bajurgs getting robbed and beaten and our girls openly targetted.
2. Whilst the Jews in their north and north east London neighbourhoods are a tiny minority we Sikhs in our neighbourhoods are the majority so the whole town is OUR community.

To be clear, I gave the 'Hackney' and Stoke Newington examples simply because it is a an example of Jews defending their own area. Those areas don't apply to we Sikhs though, just because the one sole Sikh (jkvlondon) once lived there. It is not, never has been, and never will be, our manor. When I suggest we Sikhs organise our own equivelent of the Jewish 'Shomrin' I'm basically talking about areas like Southall, Hounslow, Birmingham, Wolverhampton etc.

From the direction this thread has gone in so far, I gather most if not all of you are still in the dark about the Shomrim. Basically, they wear an official uniform and are provided resources, guidance and help by the Metropolitan Police and the local London Borough Council's. The local Police Chiefs, Councils (including council social services) and the local Courts have an agreement that they will not interfere in the workings of the Shomrim. Basically, that means the Police will even turn a blind eye to crimes if the Shomrim say they will / are dealing with it as an internal Jewish matter. They have no powers of arrest but, they have similar powers as to PCSO's and, as long as the suspect does not insist the Police get involved (which is extremely unlikely) they are judge, jury and executioner.

So, going back to my first message: In our traditional Sikh neighbouirhoods our Sikh bajurgs are attacked and robbed and our Sikh girls are openly targetted by predators right in front of our eyes. So where is our 'Shomrim' ?

Why didnt maharaja ranjit singh make Amritsar the capital of his empire? Why lahore instead?

Because Lahore has always, since the beginning of Punjab, been Punjab's most important city. Also, since the day Amritsar as a city was founded right up until 1947, it was always a distinctly Muslim city, with Muslims being the overwhelminng majority. In contrast, Lahore had a very healthy Sikh, Hindu and Muslim mix.

jevoh's witness get given a textbook to study on all other faiths and how approach i know i got shown it by a jehovah's witness guy ,

Thats nothing. There are some Universities in Canada that have specific degree courses in how to convert Sikhs. These are proper university courses and the detail they go into is frightening. Look at the modules they cover....They even tell you how to bide your time and first pretend that you love 'their' Gurus and only mention Jesus for the first time when you've got their trust.

http://www.info-sikh.com/PageEvan4.html

but chandigarh developed in 60's/70's was well planned of that era.

Sorry but I'm confused. How can buildings made from the wrong materials........i.e NOT suitable for the Punjab climate, be considered "well panned" ? :stupidme:

You see, you didn't understand the criticism I made of him in the previous message when I talked about his famous quote about 'machines'. His major shortcoming was that he didn't see people as human beings......He saw them as machines. Thus he had absolutely no understanding about the needs a human being has. Thus he was almost completely blind to the landscape of Punjab, the demographics of Punjab, the needs of the people of Punjab. You add that to his schoolboy error of using the wrong materials for the climate and you have a very poor architect. And when you add that to the fact that the concrete buildings are hideously ugly you have a criminally inept architect.

I know architects that feel Le Corbusier should have been prosecuted in the human rights courts for crimes against humanity. He is almost universally hated amongst those in the know. The trouble with Punjabis is that they are inherently very gullible. They're told to feel proud that a 'world famous architect' has designed their city and they do. They do without ever casting a critical eye over the true ugliness of that city.

I've always hoped that the good people of Chandigarh have better sense than to waste their resources in the way that Le Corbusier wasted theirs, and instead that they may obtain the funds they need to demolish all of this garbage and begin again.

I mean just take a look at this ugly thing. This is the assembly building in Chandigarh. Have you ever seen such an ugly thing ? :

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_kybcw0W86e1qa86r0.jpg

The city was designed by le corbusier. With the exception of yourself, ive yet to come across anyone who can fault his work.

We know who designed it S4angh. We've all sat on his chairs and sofas. And we've all agreed that their extremely uncomfotable.

With the exception of yourself, ive yet to come across anyone who can fault his work.

Well then you need to get out more, my friend. It is a widely held opinion, especially among the intelligensia, that Le Cobusier was a really rubbish designer / architect. And I mean really really rubbish. His pathetic inability to design anything capable of withstanding natural elements is legendary and the decaying facade of buildings in Chandigarh is testament to that. His most famous quote, and one which pretty much sums up his attitude toward both architecture and human beings, is: “A house is a machine to live in.” He spent most of his career following this creed, putting up graceless, poorly-built concrete “machines” all over the world, and encouraging others to do the same. Chandigarh is a spectacular example of why Le Corbusier was such a terrible architect. Gigantic, oppressively out of scale concrete government buildings squat alongside slimy reflecting pools ri, their walls stained and failing as a result of the passage of time, the extreme weather of Punjab, and the poor choice of materials. Office blocks with pointless shapes plopped along the roofline concealing who knows what look like interrogation centres for the KGB. Apartment / Flats buildings that are reminiscent of stacks of dirty, corrugated cardboard about to go into the shredder give the impression that the residents would be better off living in an actual cardboard box. Even the artificial lake created for the enjoyment of the residents of Chandigarh features what look like watch tower platforms from a concentration camp.

To put it another way S4ANGH, Chandigarh looks exactly like the mistakes made in Britain after the Germans bombed the hell out of our cities in WW2. We hurriedly put up concrete monstrosities like Chandigarh. We've spend the last 2 decades knocking every one of them down to correct the mistakes made. The same should be done to Chandigarh. It is one huge, gigantic mistake.

And the husband was not party to this ? he is the bigger culprit because he couldn't honour his vows to his God and wife.

HE ruined his own life. SHE ruined another family's life. By what strange logic do you come to the conclusion that she's OK and he is not ?

I had no idea about that movie.

The story that comes with it is just as, if not more, interesting.

Thanks for sharing that with us 13Mirch.

Good luck trying to get sympathy from anyone JudgeNot.

She may well get off on a technicality but as far as the vast majority of people are concerned she is as guilty as hell.

Even if she didn't kill that poor woman (and she probably did) she ruined her life anyway by blatantly sleeping with that woman's husband. Then this angel of yours was so besharm, not content with ruining this poor woman's life by ruining her marriage behind her back, she even went to the woman's house to rub it in more. So besharm, so shameless, so un-caring, she even stood on a ledge to sneak in.

If any vile woman is capable of this crime it is her.

So, whether or not she stuck the knife in her is immaterial. She killed this woman's life long before a knife entered the equation.

Crime ridden areas only become 'crime ridden areas' when the people who live there do nothing, sit back and watch it happen.

Those areas, are OUR neighbourhoods. We don't need to run to the suburbs. We need to create an environment where our community is safe. We need to care more about what happens right outside our front garden and our Gurdwara gates. See thats what I don't understand about Southall. There's 30 or 40 Gurdwaras here and right outside them are prostitutes openly plying their trade, dealers openly dealing their poison and more drug addicts than you've had hot dinners. I don't understand how and why the sangat close their eyes and ears to it.

Now, lets look at 2 notorious, crime ridden inner city neighbourhoods : Crown Heights in Brooklyn New York and Hackney in London. Both these areas are similar as both have orthodox Jews living alongside blacks. Crime is endemic in both these neighbourhoods but the one constant is that the orthodox Jews in these areas suffer no crime or intimidation at the hands of their fellow neighbourhood dwellers.

So why is this ?

Well, it's because ib both these areas and in all other working class, inner city Jewish neghbourhoods, such as Stoke Newington near Tottenham etc, the Jews have what they call the 'Shomrim'. Every Jewish neighbourhood on earth, from London to New York, from Paris to Beunos Aires, has a Shomrim.

The Shomrim is made up of able bodied Jewish men who take it in turns to patrol their neighbourhoods as a small group. They ensure the property of Jews is kept safe. They ensure elderly Jews are kept safe. They ensure the honour of their womenfolk is kept safe.

Using the various north and north east London Shomrims as an example, they have the blessing and active support of the local councils and police.

Now, lets look at our own Sikh neighbourhoods. Lets look at Southall. Southall is now officially London's hotspot for prostitution and drugs etc. As soon as it gets dark a drive down Southall Broadway would shock even the most broadminded amongst you. An absolute cesspit of immorality. The daytime isn't much better and its not much better in our other Sikh areas such as Wolverhampton and Birmingham etc. Our elderly Sikhs are attacked and robbed and our girls are openly targetted.

So where are our able bodied men ? Where is our 'Shomrim' ?

Its like some of you desperately want this girl to be a Sikh girl.

Despite evidence pointing to the contrary you so wish her to be a Sikh you're prepared to ignore the likliehood of her being a Muslim female and get worked up anyway. :stupidme:

Think of the ugly concrete jungle of Croydon town centre and transplant it in the middle of Punjab.

Umm...not a pleasant thought is it ?

And thats exactly what Chandigargh is. An ugly, badly designed city. A city designed to sit well in San Diego, where nobody walks, everybody drives etc.

It is a city not fit for purpose. I personally think we should punish Haryana by giving it to them.

When will you guys spend more energy in spreading the word that there are no castes in Sikhism

rather than staying in the old , backward, casteist mindset and carrying on ranting on the hindu caste system.

When are we going to change or are we ever going to change?

No veer. Can't speak for anyone else, but we certainly are / were not advocating any caste nonsense. We were simply using knowledge / history / demographics etc to work out whether this criminal female was a Muslim or Sikh.

The good news is, like good detectives, I think we actually cracked the case.

Sidhu does not exist at all in Malwa? That's ridiculous. Sidhu is probably the most common jatt surname in Malwa.

Yes, Brars are a subgroup of Sidhus. But there are LOTS of Sidhus in Malwa who write "Sidhu" and not "Brar" as their surname.

Thats what I'm here for. To learn from my brothers and sisters. So thank you brother for teaching me something I did not know.

Yes most Punjabi Jats are Muslims, but in the west most Jats are Sikhs. Secondly certain Goths such as Grewal, Garcha, Sidhu Brar are such Goths which you will never see a Musim with these Goths. These are Jats of Malwa who became Sikhs. Similarly you will find such Jatt Goths found in west Punjab which are hardly found among Sikhs because most of their members almost all became Muslim. Such as Tarar Jats who are almost all Muslims. I've never met a Tarar who is a Sikh. Sanya is not that common name among Sikhs because there are people who give their daughter this name. I myself have a relative whose daughter's name is Sanya. People began giving this name to their daughters during the 90s.

There are many Garcha villages in doaba also, and interestingly, their heartland lies in the triangle around Bilga. Now that triangle, includes areas such as Talwan. Pre-1947, that area had a distinct Muslim majority, and that includes Muslim Jatt clans....and that includes clans with the same surnames of Sikh Jatts from that area such as Dhillon, Dosanj etc. However, going back to your Malwa argument, one of the most powerfull jatt Sikh clans of Malwa is also the single most powerfull jatt Muslim clan in Pakistan : The Tiwanas. Moreover, Grewal is also a major clan in Pakistan found in their Faisalabad, Sahiwal and Sargodha districts. So, as you can see, the clan surnames overlap both sides of the religious divide. The interesting thing here is that no Sikh Jatt clan shares a surname with Hindus, but they do with Muslims. Whilst at the same time other Sikh groups such as Aroras and Khatris share their surnames with Hindus but NEVER Muslims.

Also...it's a mute point but the Sidhu-Brar you mentioned as a Malwa gorth isn't entirely correct. Brar does not exist at all in doaba and Sidhu does not exist at all in malwa. The two are, for intents and purposes separate but do, however, remember their shared background when it comes to marriage etc. Oh and also, whilst interestly enough, the Brar clan does not exist among Muslims in Pakistan, Sidhu is still a strong clan surname among Muslim jatts in Pakistan and can be found mainly in Lahore. Of course this could be because Sidhus came first and the Brars are an off-shoot of the Sidhus ?

but in the west most Jats are Sikhs

You're probably right about that, but I don't think any of us can say with 100% certainty. I see and meet Pakistani Punjabi Jatts all the time in London, and there's alot more in Canada and America, but we also have to remember that a large proportion of the Kashmiri / Mirpuri Pakistanis in the UK actually classify themselves as Jatt.

But we're digressing here Johnny, I'm sure you'll agree that most of the evidence so far seems to point to this girl being a Pakistani Muslim rather than a Sikh....would you not ?

You're clutching at straws now Johnny.

Sanya is a very very common first name for Pakistani Muslim females. Very common.

Lets re-examine the evidence:

• The girl's first name is one that is one of the most common first names among Pakistani Muslim females
• The girl comes from Bradford where 9 out of every 10 south Asians are Pakistani Muslim.
• The girl's surname is a jatt surname and most Punjabi Jatts in this world are Pakistani Muslim
• With the large number of heroin addicted Pakistani Muslim females in the UK, violent honey trap robberies among them are quite common and a growing problem. Look at this recent news story from Wolverhampton for example: http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/honeytrap-couple-jailed-vicious-assault-3950693

Like I said before, I don't know for sure but all the evidence seems to point towards this girl being a Pakistani Muslim jatti. NOT a Sikh.

The surname Garcha is a Punjabi surname associated to Jatts. I know of a few Garchas.

Yes but there are more Muslim Jatts in Pakistan Punjab than there are Sikh Jatts in India (Punjab), and the Muslim jatt clans in Pakistan share the same gorths, such as Cheema, Gill, Janjua, Khalon, Dhillon and Garcha etc.

So, given the fact that it's Bradford we're talking about and the girl's first name is 'Sanya', there's far more chance that she's a Pakistani Jatti and this thread is much ado about nothing.

There's a ancient Roman shrine in London dedicated to the Persian / Roman god Mithras. It was built by the Romans when they occupied Londonium. At the time of Jesus's life, the most popular god of all was Mithras. The story of Mithras was that he was born in a barn and when he was born a light shone and 3 kings came from the east bearing gifts, specifically gold, frankincence and myrrh. Mithras died on a cross but before he did he celebrated a last supper with his 12 disciples, who represented the 12 signs of the zodiac.

All Jesus's followers did, was to blatantly steal the story behind the most popular diety of the time and attribute the exact same story to Jesus.

Jesus, when he was alive was a very good Jew. That fact is summed up with his sermon to the moneylenders at the Temple in Jeruselum. He never advocated a separate and distinct religion. His followers were basically the Nazerine sect of Judaism.

It was only much much later after his death, when Jews were being expelled from Jeruselum, that his Nazerine followers said they were not jews and were instead a totally separate new religion, simply to save their own skins and be allowed to stay in Jeruselum.

I say we're very lucky that Kirpal 'singh' Massi has left us to join them. He's obviously an incredibly thick and gullible person so is where he belongs. We're far better off without simpletons like him.

I'm impressed by your knowledge jkvlondon. Are you a doctor /nutritionalist ?

Can I ask, and I ask as a layman, the way we Punjabis actually cook the vegetables in our sabjian, are we actually killing the nutrients by overcooking it ?

3HO is a lost cause, the ones who leave are usually at risk of death by the cult.

Your first statement is probably true. In fact its definately true.

However, you've followed it with such a ridiculous second statement one can't help but wonder about the validity of your frst statement.

I mean lets just be clear about this....Are you saying 3HO have secret death squads that go around assassinating people that leave their group ?

My own thoughts on 3HO are these : Clearly, many of their practices are very un-Sikh and offensive to us. However, one does need to strike a balance between good and bad and bearing that in mind it has to be said they have single handedly brought more non-Sikhs into the Sikh fold on a world-wide level than all the other Sikh organisations combined. Despite their very serious shortcomings, thats something that can't be ignored.

The BBC news today, after researching the bones of Gladiators revealed they were strictly vegetarians:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-29723384

I grew up in a time where meat eaters would say they were were naturally tougher than vegetarians.

These same meat eaters would describe themselves as 'gladiators'.

These same meat eaters would describe themselves as educated folowers of news but yet buried their heads in the sand when eggs causing salmonella was the main headline news.

These same meat eaters would describe themselves as educated folowers of news but yet buried their heads in the sand and carried on eating their McDonalds when mad cow disease was the main headline news.

These same meat eaters would describe themselves as educated folowers of news but yet buried their heads in the sand when the fact that Burger King had been feeding them horse disguised as beef was the main headline news.

These same meat eaters are today describing themselves as educated folowers of news yet are burying their heads in the sand now that bush meat causing EBOLA is becoming the headline news. :stupidme:

Just how many more messages does Waheguru have to send them ?

The Gurdwaras in my Village operate in the same way. Women one side, men the other

Well thats strange to say the least. All the Gurdwaras in my village, surrounding villages and the large historic Gurdwaras have men and females sitting together on any side they want.

Your mention of the 'Western way' is invalid as the Christian congregation sit in a mixed environment.

Didn't say anything about 'Christianity', as it is, after all, a middle eastern religion.

I said 'western' for two reasons. Firstly because the first poster on this thread who opposed the traditional way described men and women sitting together as the 'western' way. And secondly, because, as this men and women separate system is a system that has its origins in Gurdwaras in countries such as the UK, Canada and America, I am pretty sure that each of these countries fall within the definition of the 'west'.

Therefore, those that advocate the separation of males and females in the Gurdwara are, by very definition, 'western' and 'modern' and at odds with Sikh tradition.

Like I said, a very topsy turvy state of affairs.

A Gurdwaras isn't a social meeting class.

Traditionaly Sikh Gurdwaras (dharamsalas) were exactly that. A place for Sikhs to meet with each other, sit with each other as a community. Our history here in the west is founded on that very basis, with the Gurdwara acting as a focal point for new arrivas to access help and information. We see that even today with the thousands of Italian Sikh families arriving each year from Italy into the UK. The first place they go for help and guidance is the Gurdwara.

This discussion has lost it's way a little in that most posters do not seem to understand a very simple fact. And that fact is that the sexes sitting together is the taditional way, i.e the way it is in practically every village Gurdwara in Punjab. This separation of the sexes that we find in our Gurdwaras in the UK, Canada and America etc is the relatively modern way of doing things. I think many of you seem to have this fact upside down - the wrong way round, mistakingly thinking separattion is the traditional way. Makes alot of this coversation rather topsy turvy, with people liking the modern 'western' way calling the traditionalists "modern" and 'western" for stressing the traditional way. :stupidme:

Today's Sikh girls are far more glued up about Sikhi? I disagree. Just because they show up to gurdwara or bring up Sikhi on twitter or social media doesn't make them good future Sikhs. Sikhs in the west aren't strong yet. We are unorganized still. Now that might be the case in U.K. but by being in America at the moment, Sikhi here doesn't look that bright in the future where literally gurdwaras have not done enough to reach out to the youth hence majority not being interested. Even in Cali and New York where the majority of US Sikhs there are a lot of youth not interested in Sikhi. A lot of progress needs to be made.

The previous generation may have given the impression of being better Sikh women because they wore their hair long, wore salwar kameez and didn't answer back. But thats all it was.....just an illusion. It was the illusion of being a good Sikh. Away from the Gurdwara the reality was often a filthy mouth, Hindu practices, no concern for sarbat da bhalla and all of god's creations etc. What you have today is a generation of genuine Sikh women. Far more following true Sikhi rather than the cultural practices of before. Far more with the honesty to not pretend to be something they are not.

I don't know about the situation in cali but in Gurdwaras in England the classes are packed with young Sikh girls learning and mastering Gurbani, Gatka etc. The future is extraordinarily bright as far as Sikhi is concerned. Our girls are at the forefront of this revival and we should be praising their contribution rather than constantly seeing the glass as half empty and perennialy criticising them.

It is clear that any problem we Sikhs face is coming from our old and middle aged men. It is them, with their immorality, corruption and deceit, that is destroying us. Our girls are saving us, not destroying us. Again, I don't know about the situation where you are but today in England, there are proportionately more Sikh children with patkas and dastars than there have ever been before. For that, we should be thanking their mothers....i.e the girls being criticised on threads here.

Whether it be about crime, music, tv or religion, it is human nature for people to always think things were 'so much better in the old days' and that today it is so much worse. In reality though, that is hardly ever the case.

For me, this current generation of Sikh girls in the west is our golden generation.