JRoudh

Happy new year to everyone. Hope that your year was good and best wishes for the New Year 2015!!!!!

Sure, in the same way please celebrate Id, Shivratri, Ramnoami too.

Its not about celebrating any festivals. Christianity is not a threat to Sikhism. we can Join in the festivities and will not harm any sensible Sikh.

As Guru Gobind Singh Jis gurupurb is on 28th December if you don't want kids to miss out to there Christmas celebrating friends then instead of a tree why not put up a Nishan Sahib & then put presents under neath the Nishan sahib for kids to open on guru jis birthday instead of a Xmas tree & presents to open on the day the world celebrates Jesus's birth

have heard how many families with Young kids to this & think it's awesome. As kids don't miss out & also learn the importance of gurupurb etc.

Or instead of putting a star on top of the tree you could put a Khanda on it. personaly I think all trees and decorations should go though. Its not about hating christians or chritmas its just common sence. Why celelbrate something that is not part of your religion. but then again. as I said before its all about the drinking and eating.

Last year we had a very robust discussion here about the hollowness of some Sikhs who put Christmas trees in their houses.

Lot of us learnt from that discussion and agreed to stop following this mindless ritual at their houses.

I hope this trend is followed by more and more Sikhs all over the world.

Like Johny explained clearly,

"It is not befitting of a Sikh of the Guru to put up a Christmas tree in his/her house. Firstly we are not Christians that we need to celebrate this holyday of Yasoo Masee. Secondly if your excuse is that you are celebrating it because it is a European pagan holyday, then please do your self a favour and look at yourself in the mirror and see for yourself, YOU ARE NOT A GORA! so stop trying to act like a coconut because that's exactly what you are if you celebrate by putting up a Christmas tree.

A Sikh should be very careful living in the west. If you celebrate these non Sikh holydays with your family what kind of sanskaars are you giving to your children? you are basically confusing your children who will grow up thinking it is perfectly okay to celebrate Christmas and by extention Hanakah and even Eid! then we wonder where we went wrong when our confused girls grow up marrying Muslims and Christians.

Buying your children stuff during this time of the year one should give it to them like it is any other time of the year. Don't make it look like something special by gift wrapping it like you are giving it to them because it's. Don't confuse your children by making them think Christmas is a special day."

I agree one of the reasons why some Sikhs are converting to other beliefs is because they are brought up way to liberalised hence these Sikhs dont take the rightfull path of Sikhism seriously are are swayed by preachers from other religions. This also sets a bad example to the youth who think Sikhs will celebrate anything. I think it is more to do about Sikhs will use any excuse to have a good drink. Lets face it christmas is not a religious occasion anyway its a time to get together and take out the whisky bottles and roast chicken.

Obviously if your like me having a few drinks over Christmas is not gonna make us any less Sikh. Infact it shows how strong we are in our faith that we can celebrate christmas and not feel threatened. But I think we should definantly not be putting any trees up and decorations as apart from looking ridiculous it sets a bad exaple to the youth. We should be celebrating more Sikh occasions. W

Muslims on the other hand will not celebrate Christmas because they have an inferiority complex with Christianity as Islam is a mixture of christian and Jewish beliefs mixed with some arab tradions and hey presto you have Islam. Hnece these people feel tenderhearted by chritianity

Not just the people who live there. Every Punjabi, from all over Punjab, pronounces Amritsar as Ambarsar.

Yes, I remember always finding this confusing when I was younger as everyone I know says Ambarsar . But when I see the spelling online It is always spelled Amritsar I use to think this must be another place ... lol. But then some relatives explained it to me.

It think this to do with the Punjabi Pronunciation/spelling of it and Amritsar is the English version or something like that. To all native Ambarsaris it is second nature but to outsiders they usually pronounce it as Amritsar.

We actually sold 2 of our houses in Ambarsar, but we still got one there still and its always special to go back and see our old house thats been there since over 80 years although it has changed alot since modernising it. What makes it special is that the Golden temple is so close by also.

Amritsar or Ambarsar??

jkvlondon it is known as Amritsar officially but everyone that lives there, pronounces it as Ambarsar I am not sure why though.

The Punjabi that is spoken in Amritsar is the elite Punjabi and the purest. And Brampton does have alot of malwai speakers but the Greater Toronto Area is not the main place of Malwai speakers Alot moved in the late 90s early 2000s to other provinces due to better employment oppurtunities and now you will find malwai speakers everywhere here. Alot of shops and mechanics here r named after Moga. Another area with huge pop for malwai is actually Surrey Bc area which was traditionaly majority doabi im pretty sure malwai Punjabis have overtaken doabis in population due to high levels of immigration from that part of punjab. also it seems the pop of sikhs born in punjab is larger than then us who were born in canada. I only know a handful of ppl who r from amritsar though including my neighbour very humble and traditional ppl. However with all this being said I have to say that those sikhs from Doab region have made a great name for themselves alot are very wealthy and succesful!

Yes that is true The Punjabi spoken in Ambarsar as it is know is very nice to listen to and it sounds completely different to other areas of Punjab. I have alot of relatives in Dehli in india and their Punjabi is no way as good as that from Ambarsar. It is not as fluent, pure or original. I guess it just like how around the UK There are different accents this is the same in Punjab.

As I speak in the Ambarsari tongue I get alot of compliments from people who say they really like my Punjabi. I guess its because I am from Ambarsar.

These fake Punjabis like think of themselves as more genuine punjabis and think Sikhs are less Punjabi. When in fact these people are more into their arabic culture of Smoking Shisha and other Islamic customs and traditions. Most use Khan as their surname name which comes from the Mongols.

Bhatras on the other hand like myself are descended from the ancient Hindu Civilizations that have lived in Punjab for thousands of years long before any Muslims or foreign invaders came to there. In terms of who lie the claim to being the oldest group of people associated with Punjab that are in the UK are probably the Bhats and their culture has not changed for thousands of years. ie they remain pure and original in their Punjabi Traditions. Although none of these traditions are as important as the Sikh faith.

WJKK WJKF

Veer ji, I'm a Banda with 3 kids lol and me and star striker have made up.

Oh hahaha lol

sorry about that I must have got mistaken.

Starstriker your language towards Sikhseeker who is a female is bang out of order. Learn how to speak to fellow Sikh females.

I do not want to fall to your standard of gutter language. Just shows your upbring and how you talk to others in real life too.

Couldn't have said it better myself!

WJKK WJKF

Veer ji,

The bhagats of the gurbani called "Bhat de swaiye" originated from Sri Lanka. The original Bhat parchar movement worked its way through India, upto northern India doing parchar of sikhi. This was gurmat, not manmatt. It is the manmatt of man which then attributes caste on this movement. These people were Sikh, with their parchar bringing other people towards sikhi.

Panjab is irrelevant to sikhi. Veer ji, read gurbani, there is no place on this earth where akal purakh does not exist, meaning sikhi has no geographical boundary.

Fact of the matter is, if you continue to believe in Bhatra sikh, the you have to believe in all of the other caste based Sikhs. These so called castes of then preserved due to arrive within them. The only way to realise this falsehood is sikhi, the Amrit and the Khalsa.

Even if that was the case the fact of that matter is the vast majoirty of Bhatras became Sikhs in the Punjab area after converting to Sikhism by the Bhatras hence these people originated in Punjab not Sri Lanka. That is why there is nothing remotely south indian about Bhatras today. infact we are the opposite of South Indians in our culture We also do not have any south indian sounding names. but most of the Surenames in Bhats are native to Punjab not South India.

Sikhseeker, I think you hit the nail on the head!

One thing I would like to add is that Bhatras did originate in Punjab. This is why Bhats are to be found in the heart of Punjab till the present day. Not far away places on the outskirts but in the very heart of Punjab. ie Amritsar, Lahore ect.

Bhatra is a collection of Sikhs it is not one race. Hence it contains people from many different clans. That is why when I go to a Bhatra wedding I am still amazed by the many different sikh groups in the Bhatras which can be seen by their surnames. You see Bhats are the ones who brought people to Sikhsim hence the Bhatras are made up of the Sikhs converts from Punjab in the 16th century.

Even if Bhatras originated from Uttar Pradesh only a handful would have entered Punjab. These people then brought many other Sikhs to Sikhism hence how the Bhatra population grew so big.

Bhatra population today is dominated by people who originated in Punjab. But some people would rather believe in old wifes tales.

LoL

I find some of the comments on this thread hilarious.

First of all, If I knew about this Khand di Rasum or whatever it is called I would have no problem explaining what it is. But as I have never heard of this before. How do you suppose I explain something I have never heard of?? :wow: lol

I think JagwahSingh knows more about this 'disgusting ritual' as he puts it so maybe he should explain what it is and why it is disgusting? And can enlighten us on this practice.

As I have said before, I know nothing about this and hopefully never come across this if it is against Sikhism,

Finally, I agree this thread should be closed now as other posters have said.

Oh dear o dear, geezer, wat u spittin ur dummy out for? Right firstly, im not the 1 who started talking about panjabi muslims in the 1st place, that was u! Secondly it was u, who then referred to their ancestry etc. thirdly im NOT a jatt, so i have no bias towards them or have anything against them! Then u say pics of blood drippin axe of a mona is nutin 2 b proud of on a sikh forum, well should i put a video full of bhatra "sikhs" at wedding drinking more appropriate then? Or how about a bhangra singer who's also mona singin about a girl, like u did in ur bhatra thread 2 weeks back? Pure double standards.

You seem to think im some obsessed jatt, well as ive mentioned that im not even a jatt,so thats out of the question, but who r u to say to any1 on this forum that theyre proud of their "caste", when ur the 1, who only contributes to threads where the subject is about bhatras? Mate get real, ur the 1 who thinks bhatras r some special kind of human stock, when u say outrageous things like "Bhatra Punjabi is more clear direct and better prounicated then Muslim Punjabi".

AS I've mentioned in of 1 of ur 1 thousand bhatra threads before, ive got bhatra mates, and ur not doing them any favours with ur mindset on this forum. Infact below is a video of my mates wedding reception, with his younger brothers' bhangra group performing. Great dance on show.

There is a world of difference between me posting a innocent video of a Punjabi Sikh wedding just for cultural awareness then posting some guy with a overgrown moustash wielding an axe with blood splattered everywhere. lol

Anyway if this guy called meshi Jatt or whatever his name is.

is your hereo then good for you and I wish you all the look in watching these prehistoric movies

I have got a feeling this is going to be a never ending conversation with you startstriker. I have not got the time to be responding to you as you seem to be going round in circles not to mention butting into other peoples conversations.

Ya i also noticed this. i live in canada and some of my friends spoke a diff way then me n thts cos they were from jalandhar and my family is in moga district. i think punjabi spoken by majority here sounds similar to you cos alot of the pop in canada for punjabis is malwa region there r alot of doaba speakers too but i think malwai speakers have overtaken them in pop now lot of newer immigrant from punjab come from moga. also in canada there r alot of jatts and also huge rajput populations n also big pakistani punjabi/pahari speakers so that could be another reason why it sounds a little diff from doabi and more similar to your dialect n the only thing i no about american sikhs and punjabis is tht they r very americanized n speak english n not punjabi even at home.

That was exactly what I was thinking. That is interesting, I guess most of the UK Punjabi Sikhs come from Jalandhar areas apart from the the Bhat community who majority come from Amritsar, Lahore ect .West Punjab. I myself am from Amritsar as do most of my relatives namely Amritsar and Lahore. I find the Malwai Punjabi to be more easy to listen to and its usually more better with pronunciation and easier to understand. Its also more direct and aggressive and easy on the ears. I heard that Brampton in canada is mostly Moga if I recall?

Cant wait to go back to the family home in Amritsar . Theres nothing like waking up to the sounds from the Golden temple in the morning the most beautiful region in the whole of Punjab hands down.

These pictures are nothing to be proud of. They depict a mona who is shaven with blood on a axe.

I think you are forgetting this is a Sikh forum not a place to talk about some muslim tribes and posting pictures of people with axes and blood dripping from them.

Okay so your proud to be a Jat and your also proud of your muslim jatt brothers pakistan for also being jat.

Good for you star striker. It was jat people who were actually the first in india to embrace Islam. Everyone gives a lot of stick to south Indians for converting to Islam. But it was the jatt people who converted to Islam the most. The pakistani jatt probably dont care that your a jat also they probably just see you as another kaffir. why do you care about them so much. but each to their own.

Any one? JRoudh do you know? Just for cultural awareness.

ms14, this is the reason I made the whole Bhatra thread in the first place. It was to educate the Sangat on matters like this. Because this is what essentially prevents Sikhs from mixing with each other. Due to them thinking other Sikhs have different customs or what not and hence forming judgements and prejudice based on these false rumors and hearsay, because of not knowing about the community. Sikhs then end up being even more divided.

Would you prefer I did not highlight these matters? To remove these false lies and thus unite the Sikh community? I understand where you are coming from and that we should not mention anything that promotes the caste system but this is about education not promoting caste.

Bhatra is not a caste. We do not believe in caste system hence why in Bhat community there is are of many different Sikh groups. Such as Khatri/Tharkan/Jat/Rajput ect that are part of us.

As for your question gurdssingh I have never heard about what JigsawSingh said. Thats something new to me. we dont have any unique customs or traditions as it is against Sikhism to believe in any kind of rituals. We did use to be into Jhakta meat and I recall going to farms when I was younger and buying live goats and peforming the Jhakta tradition. But we dont do this anymore and its rare. Only the hardcore Bhats still do that on a day out.

Like most Sikhs we have now become over modernized and wealthy thus forgetting our traditions.

Like StarStriker said, there is just so much wrong with what you've written, I don't know where to start. So I won't.

We Sikhs don't own Punjabi, although I think it is more than fair to say we have been, and continue to be, the guardians of the language.

Languages naturally evolve over time and I do think we need to change a little, for our own sakes, because there is perhaps a bit too much overly religious Islamic terms in the language we speak, and I'm not talking about the classical Persian words which form such a rich part of our language and the history of it (including the word 'Punjab' itself). I'm talking about words that I myself, as a Sikh, feel uncomfortable using.

For example, the Punjabi word for bathroom literaly translates as 'the room one goes to prepare onself to read the Namaz'. Should we Sikhs be using words such as this ?

The Punjabi word itself is 'Gusulkhanna'. Now we know that khanna means room so the question is what does 'gusul' mean ?. Well, the word gusul comes from Mohammed and the Quran and it is the purification ritual Muslims must perform before they read their Namaz.

So you see what I;m saying here, as the guardians of the language we need to perhaps set the changes.

You know full well Roudh that the brahmins themselves and all scholars outrightly reject your brahmin origin claim. Its just a claim that you yourselves constantly make but nobody else ever buys into as all scholars of Sikh history know full well that your people entered the Punjab at the onset of Sikhism after Sri Guru Nanak dev ji's travels into central and south India (and Ceylon).

As for the Pakistani Punjabis themselves, again as StarStriker stated, only a very very small number of them have any Arab blood. The vast majority of them have exactly the same dna as us. For example, the majority of Punjabi Jatts in this world are Pakistani Muslim and they have exactly the same surnames as us, and that is because they are from the same clans / families as us. Another example are the rich industrialists that own all the big businesses in Lahore. They call themsselves 'shaiks' but that is just the Muslim name for Khatri as many of the rich Hindu and Sikh industrialists converted to islam in 1947 rather than give up their vast wealth.

I dont think Jats in pakistan pay as much attention to their clan or caste as you do. Infact pakistani muslims place more importance on religion and marry out of their caste from the UK to Pakistan. I never hear any pakistani muslims boasting about being a Jatt. You may class them as your brothers from paksitan who share your dna. But As a bhatra the vast majority of Sikhs from this group, Maybe a small amount maybe muslims who are Bhat. but who knows what their heritage now after they have bred with the genral muslim population who come from many different ethnicity. Maybe in a pefect world you think the Pakistani jatts only marry within their own caste but that is not the case.

As I have mentioned before Bhatras originate in Punjab from the Punjabi Hindus that lived there and have lived there for centuries before you was even born.

Like i sed previously, if panjabi muslims r of arab descent (which they r not), then wat r rest of the other panjabis then? Many sikhs converted from islam in panjab aswel too. The tribes of muslim panjabis r there in sikh panjabis too, they jus call them by diffrnt names (gujjar/jatt/rajah/butts/arain) = (gujjar/jatt/rajput/brahmin/saini) etc. probably 1% of paks r from arab ancestry (syeds), n thats it.

Regarding using persian words, u do realise that sikhi/panjabi itself has many many persian words in it. Nihang, shamsher, dastaar, pur (town), garh (fort/house), gul (flower), aab (water), panj (5), noh (9), sharam, hafta (7 days) etc.

I think u have bought into the propaganda that paks r decendants of arabs bit too much pal.

So when the Mughals invaded india did they not mix with the muslims. ie what about the mughal armies that came over to india? where are these people now. did they just go back to iran or the middle east when the were defeated?

Pakistan is a multi-ethnical country. There are many ethnic groups and almost all of them are from different background. Generally the Pakistani people share their heritage with neighboring countries such as Afghanistan, India and Iran. There are also some Arab tribes such as Hashemis, Quraishes and Syeds etc.

So there are millions of Pakistanis who are Iranian origin/descent

And there are millions of Pakistanis who are of Afghan origin/descent

there are millions of Pakistanis who are of Indian origin/descent

There are close to million Pakistanis who are Arab origin

Then there also Pakistanis of African origin located in southern part of the country. Also sizable community of Hazaras who are of Mongol origin.

So Pakistanis are well mixed up society.

So much wrong with that u have written.

1st of all panjabi muslims r not of arab origin, if they r, then wat r we? We have same surnames, blood/dna n features as they do. Also id say that them not havin a full grasp of panjabi is bit unfair, since a lot of poetry/stories written in panjabi folklore r by panjabi muslims. And they only started losing their love for panjabi during the 1920's onwards, as the muslim league were tryin 2 put panjabi muslims on a seperate path to sikh n hindu panjabis, which would lead to clear segregation n eventually a seperate homeland, which turned out to be a great tactic by them. If anything, hindus gave up panjabi earlier than muslims of panjab. The village type muslims carried on speakin panjabi tho, as they, like sikhs, were more village orientated, compared to hindus, who have always been more urbanfied. Then after partition, the pak panjabis completely abondoned panjabi, shamelessly. A pak commentator (tareq fata)summed it up well, wen he says, that ppl in power have made w.panjab into urdustan, and will only speak panjabi, wen they shout at their house cleaner, or wen theyve drank some fine wine.

They may have started out as Hindu punjabis or other native indian races. But they were then converted to Islam and mixed with the arab invaders. Because of this they follow Arab traditions, language ect such as urdu.

I don’t know what you are as I am not an expert on every Sikhs ancestry.

Speaking for myself, we are are pure Punjabis and our language is not a mix of other languages as is the case of Muslim Punjabis. Ie we have no other influence on our spoken Punjabi. Such as Persian, urdu ect.

This has not changed from the times of the earliest native Punjabis that we are descended from such as the North Indian Hindu Brahmins.

Punjabi knows no religious or caste boundaries. For example, there are 2 or 3 districts in Pakistan where the majority accent / dialect is the same doaba dialect that I speak (for those Muslims originated from Jalandhar which pre-partition had a Muslim majority). Even here in the UK, so many of my wife's Pakistani friends speak exactly the same way that she does. Partition turned everything upside down. For example, I can talk to a Sikh in Delhi and 9 times out of 10 I'll hear a Punjabi voice which history says belongs in Lahore. Then again I can go deep into Pakistan into Faisalabad and talk to a Muslim there but 9 times out of 10 I'll hear a Punjabi voice that history says belongs in Jalandhar. It is a special language. It knows no caste or creed.

I dont think Muslims speak pure or genuine Punjabi because of the them mixing urdu with it and hence they speak a diluted version. They also are arabic origin hence they dont have the full grasp of the language as it is not in their true heritage. they speak a hindi /urdu punjabi hybrid language. ie they lost the original form of the language when the mughals converted them to islam and hence they mixed the arabic languages.

Bhatras on the other hand speak Punjabi like its meant to be spoken with correct pronunciation and passion. This type of Punjabi cannot be learned. It is passed on from generation to generation.I have never met a punjabi Hindu/muslim or anyone that can speak as eloquently or correctly as Bhats. This is because by profession we were poets/bards. We were known to be very good at talking.

Not just 'UK' Punjabis but it is also the most common dialect / accent in Canada, California, Italy, New Zealand etc. The only exception to this rule is Malaysia, Singapore, Fiji and the very old Sikh communities of Australia. They are mostly Majha people.

But going back to the UK phenomenon, you also have the East African ramgharias added to the dynamics on a large scale and most of them also originate from villages in doaba and so also have an accent more akin to doaba than anything else.

hmmm Interesting that most Sikhs come from this doaba region. What could be the reason for this?

Bhatras mostly originate from what is now West Punjab and hence speak more similar to people from those areas i guess. I once heard a muslim punjabi girl speak and I was shocked how similar she sounded to me. Saying that Bhatras have a unique dialect in their own right. I can instantly tell when a Bhatra speaks and when a muslim Punjabi speaks.

Bhatra Punjabi is more clear direct and better prounicated then Muslim Punjabi. They also speak faster and more loudly. I think this is due to Bhatras being the earliest settlers in Punjab hence we speak Punjabi in its original form. wheras other Sikh communities came later and spoke their own dialects.

The Canadian and American Sikhs are the kith and kin of we UK Punjabis, i.e one brother in the UK, the other sister in Vancouver, the older brother in California etc. Thats the way it is with the majority of UK Sikhs. They are not strangers to us. They are close family members brought up in the same household and so speak exactly the same doaba and malwa dialects as we do in the UK. Exactly the same.

It's nothing to do with certain 'communities' as you put it. For example there are bhatras in Hoshiarpur, Jalandhar and Ludhiana and they speak in the same doaba and malwa dialect as we do. They do so because that is the dialect one speaks if one is from those areas. It just so happens that the vast majority of the UK bhatras originate from one small area in Sialkot and so you speak in that Sialkot twang of the majha dialect.

I did not know that. But I do tend to find the Canadian Punjabi sound different to the UK punjabis slightly. ie Jazzy b and certain other singers from there. They speak in a more aggressive tone similar to Bhatras. Maybe thats just from a select few Ive heard from there. I also have to say Bhatras Punjabi is also different from Muslims Punjabis. The muslim Punjabi speak in a more softly and slow way and have different pronunciations for most words. The Bhatras on the other hand speak in a very loud, aggressive way with many different pronunciations Ie you can hear a Bhatra even if your a mile a way lol

To be honest I dont come across many Bhats that come from Sailkot.

So are you saying most UK punjabis are from Jalandhar ie east Punjab hence why they speak in that dilect??