JRoudh

Coming from certain Punjabi background which I am sure most people are aware of I have found that the Punjabi dialect we speak is slightly different from other Sikh communities in the UK. It is not worse or better but just a bit different. ie I find that our Punjabi is more similar to Punjabi spoken by Muslim Punjabis. However, I also find that Canadian/American Punjabi sounds more similar to what I speak then the UK Punjabis. What could be the reasons behind this? Could this just be the geographic locations in the Punjab. As most of the people from the community I come from, originate from Amritsar Lahore. Ambala areas. Could this also be the reason that Sikhs that come from the above areas tend to be more strict and conservative then Sikh from other areas. As these areas are more closer to where Sikhism originated.

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I agree all these gadgets just keep us inside away from doing stuff that is good for us our health/ we need to spend more time outdoors. in the park, taking part in sport, gardening, hobbies. Not on the computer all day like some zombie.

I was going to post a message as my last reply to Bhatra community thread a few days ago but I accidentally deleted it which was a shame as it was a long detailed post. Anyway If I could ask the admin to my put my last reply in the topic this would be greatly appreciated as the topic has now been locked. But the Jist of my reply was the following. The Bhatra community thread I made was not intended to be about caste. It was actually intended to bring all Sikhs together and create more unity. What is wrong with pointing out the achievements of the Bhatra Sikh community in any case? There is nothing wrong in doing this. It’s not about my caste/community is better then yours. Its about celebrating achievements that all Sikh communities have made for the the Khalsa Panth. Infact all Sikhs should be proud of the Bhat achievements in the UK. Sikhs were the first people to mass migrate to the UK from the Punjab. All Sikhs regardless of their background or where they come from should all take pride in this as fellow Sikhs. Sikhs being the first out of the whole India to come to the UK and establish ourselves. Ramghria/Jat/Khatri ect have all made individual and unique contributions to Sikhism and if people would like to point that out. I for one will not object to that, as any success that is achieved by a fellow Sikh will reflect on all Sikhs. We can also learn about Sikh history in this way. It is very important that Sikhs know about our amazing past ie of how Sikhism started ect.I think the aim of the thread has now been achieved ie raising awareness about the Bhatra community. And removing any misconceptions that some people may have had. Now that has been done I think we should all unite as one Sikh community. Hopefully a day will come when there wont be a Bhatra community or a Jat/Tharkan comunity ect there will just be one group, simply known as the Sikh community. For people who would like to know more information about the the Bhat Sikh community can go to www.Bhatra.co.uk This site has alot of details and pictures from the sangat. JigsawSingh The intention of my thread was to unite all the Sikhs under one umbrella of the Khalsa instead of all the divisions that exist todaythat stop this from happening.With regards to Bhatra Population it is actually probably around 100.000 you have to take account of the fact that Bhatra families generally tend to be very large. While Jat/Tharkan families are usually on the smaller side. This is one reason why Bhatras are the fastest growing Sikh community in the UK. I am pretty sure as a conservative figure that it is 100.000 at least if not more. Taking into account that there are 3 main Sikh communities in the UK. Jat/Tharkan/Bhatra The current total population of Sikhs in the UK is around 500.000. The Bhatra community also started to migrate to the UK at a much earlier time. There is no need to talk about this further now as the aim of the thread has been achieved. Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguri Ji Ki Fateh

SSA, That was the aim of my thread to bring more awareness correct any misunderstandings that might have existed. Alot of the Bhatras that came to the UK initially were from certain clans. Hence these may have been the slightly darker ones depending on their origins. Like other communities Most Bhats live in India. The Bhats in India tend to be a lot lighter skinned. The Number of Bhats in the UK is probably around 150.000 to 200.000 and mostly concentrated in London this is because London also contains of of the UK's biggest seaports/Docks near the thames. Elsewhere they are mainly in Glasgow, Cardiff, Bristol, Sothampton, Nottingham, Manchester ect Bhats being known for being great explorers can actually be found all over the world. In Hong Kong, Singerpore, China, america all of Europe ect. This is due to Bhatras fondness for traveling to new countries and exploring. I was actually very shocked when I started uni and started to mix with Sikhs from various other backgrounnds. This was due to our comunity who always keep the name Singh as this is a sign of our allegiance the faith and our Guru. We feel so proud to have the honor of having this great name betwoed upon us. Before this I thought all Sikhs kept the name Singh also, but I was shocked to lean that most Sikhs were more into their caste/family names. This is one of the reasons that Bhatras do not stand out as much as other communities due to not using any unique family names to distinguish us from other communities. For instance the Ramghrias can be distinguished due to their distinctive family names such as Verdi, Bhogal and Bansal. We have a sence of pride and honour of the name given to us by our Gurus od Singh /Kaur that we would never change this and feel it is big sin/disrespect to have a family name above the name given to us by our Guru, Guru Gobind Singh Ji. Hence no one till this day keep their family names. While other communities revel in their family names by having them on football kits and t.shirts to show their pride in their caste. Bhats in general tend to be more agressive and strict in our beliefs. We view other Sikhs as being slightly soft and white washed with them more likley to be over modernised. This is due to our community being made up of historialy very religious clans from the Punjab. This has instilled in us a very orthodox approach to our religion that comes down from the generations above us. We are probably the most strict when it comes to women also. It does not mean we do not give them any freedom. But Bhat women are brought up knowing never to disrespect our religion.

I don't know what happened to my previous topic and I was about to make a reply. Oh well I will reply here. Going back to the latest post on the previous thread. I agree with SikhSeeker both husband and wife dont necessarily have to work to be thought of as modern and hardworking. A housewife is a full time job in itself so I agree a woman that stays at home and looks after the kids is completely acceptable. She afterall has one of the most important jobs raising kids teaching them about Sikhism. These days way to many kids are raised by the television. Oh yes Methab that is right Satwant Singh Bhakar is the Body guard and well known for assassinating Indra Ghandi and he came from the Bhat Community. That is quite interesting did not know that untill now. As for those people talking about wearing Gold. Its all about the bling baby! :biggrin2: lol only joking . I dont know why they wear all that gold jewelry. I personally think they should wear less and modernize a bit more.

Due to the tradition of only having Singh or Kaur in their last name it is difficult to distinguish the many from the community that fought against the Mughals and who made other significant contributions. There are numerous stories of valor and courage of many heroic Bhats fighting against persecution by Mughals. This has unfortunately not been historically recorded in Sikh history due to the them not being a high profile community untill the 19th century India. Before this period it was known that many Bhats followed the warrior Nihang ideology of fighting against persecutors. Due to this they never shied away from the battlefield and always had their weapons at the ready. Although I dont have specific names, the Bhatra clans of Rajput/greek/brahmin ancestry such as Rathore , Roudh, Bhakar were particularly known for their fighting abilities. But due to them being less numerically they did not get the same credit as larger communities because of this. Punjab was divided along caste lines hence people simply did not know of them and Bhats do not like to talk brag or boast as a community as it goes against the teachings of Sikhism. But the Bhats knew very well of the other Sikh communities from the very beginning. Whilst other Sikh communities may get all the attention and rightly so as they were also brave/courageous ect in the history books, the Bhats will always be the forgotten and unsung heroes of the Khalsa lead campaigns against the Mughals and subsequent British rule.Many brave and well known Hindu warrior clans were absorbed into the Bhatra community.This is one of the reasons why today they are known for their orthdox and conservative beliefs because of having such loyal warriors who make make them up. We must remember the Bhats were amongst the earliest Sikh communities alongside the Khatri's in Punjab to become persecuted for their beliefs and hence this naturally lead them to becoming very religious and orthodox community not willing to surrender or change their beliefs at any costs. Infact the Bhats rather then surrender their beliefs, they were driven by the message of Guru Nanak to spread the message of Sikhism further into thw whole of India and were not willing to convert to Islam under any circumstances. They further engaged in warfare during Guru Gobinds Singhs Ji;s campaigns against the Mughals. In addition as the earliest Sikh migrants to the UK we were known to fight for alot of Sikh rights such as being allowed to wear Turbans in the workplace. Building the very first Sikh temples in the UK. Many are also the Gianis of the historical Gurdwaras in india. I could not give any names but there are many in the Kirtaniya background aswell ,particularly from India. If I do find any I will post their names here. I will post a video of one of my relatives who is also a legend in the community in his own right . S Roudh wedding...... lol. The community is well known being very good singers in the music industry. This is way back in 2002.

This thread is not about caste and I do not believe in any caste system. Any success we as a community or group have attained is down to the Sikh faith that instills hard work, high moral values and equality for all. We do not place importance on being from a particular community it is more about our faith in Sikhism and the power that the Gurus inspired in us. If you go to any information pages about Bhat community you will see it clearly says on these websites that caste system is considered blasphemy and completely against the Sikh teachings. These sites are just for information on Sikh migration to UK and history of Sikhs in Punjab. Not to promote caste or anything like that, but actually to bring all Sikhs together regardless of their background as one and correct any misconceptions there might be due to a lack of knowledge on these matters. The community holds no pride or arrogance, If we are proud, we are proud to be Sikhs only and belong to the collective Sikh Sangat. We do not see Jat/Tharkhan/Khatri ect. We only see them as our fellow Sikhs brothers and sisters and do not hold any stereotypes/grudges against anyone. Which is what some people on this forum sadly seem to be doing. Ie I don’t mind answering questions on the community as long as it is respectfully asked to clarify particular issues or queries that people may have. We are infact happy when we interact with all Sikhs and are glad when they are successful as any success leads to the benefit if all Sikhs as a whole. Hence we want all Sikh panth to do well and don’t hold any negative views of any Sikh communities irrespective of where they come from. I myself and speaking for the entire community do not judge any Sikhs based on what background they are from. I see the person and nothing else, as ultimately a individual is defined by his actions and not his community background. I am not saying we are perfect but neither is any community and we all need to work hard to continue improving and become better Sikhs as we all have certain issues that we need to be addressing in our communities. Such as bringing Sikhs youth back to Sikhism who are going astray, and other issues which go against our religion. There are good and bad in every Sikh community. I prefer to concentrate on the good of every community rather then the bad and not label the whole community for the wrong doings of a minority of its people. Let’s pray for all Sikhs to come together as one and be proud of every Sikh for their unique and greatly valued contribution to Sikhism. I agree that the caste system is something that was used by the British and other rulers/dictators to divide us, let’s not fall for that in this day and age. At the moment I think we are a going in the right direction as the new generation is mixing more and I hope in time we will only be known as a Sikh and not any caste/ community name as that was the objective of Guru Nanak Dev Ji, to bring us all together as one to live in peace side by side without any caste labels. WJKK WJKF

I would firstly like to to say I regret that this topic has slightly side tracked. The topic was actually going quite well as it was just about the History of the Bhatra community in the UK and nothing to do with anything else. But JagSawSingh could not resist having a dig at Bhatras like he has done ever since he posted on this thread and has turned this thread into a Bhatra v Jat thread even though I never even mentioned anything about Jatts until he started making wild accusations against the Bhatra community with all sorts of false information and stereotypes. But I am glad in a way that he did as it made me do more research about the whole subject in more detail which I think is only a good thing. This has greatly deepened my understanding of the Bhat Sangat even more and hope it has for other members who are curious to find out about the community. Anyway I think I have said most what is necessary about the topic. There is nothing more to say I hope people have gained a greater understanding of the community. And I must apologies if I went slightly off topic with some unnecessary information but that was mostly in retaliation to some of JagSawSinghs offensive comments which completely side tracked the topic. As for his latest out burst about Bhatras. I dont think there is any need to respond to his centuries old list of stereotypes of the Bhat Sangat which are not true. What I would say is for him to google search images of a 'Jat woman' and see which community has a tradition of wearing bull rings in their noses it certainly is not the Bhats. Just because Bhat women wear lots of gold does not make them any less Sikh. Who cares what jewelry is worn it is what is inside that matters. I personally think women should wear less gold. And I think women have stopped wearing to much gold now due to all the damn robberies that have happened with asians being targeted for gold. We dont slaughter Jhakta meat anymore that was centuries ago. We are living in the 21st century. Not 17 century India. The fact of the matter is the average Bhatra today cannot be distinguished between the rest of the Sikh communities today.

So what is 'Sikh like'? Making Bhangra videos of caste based songs making bhangra songs about drinking and women indulging in drugs and drink in the Punjab Infant infanticide in the Punjab Its a good job we got Jatts to teach us how to be true Khalsa Sikhs.

If there are issues with Sikhs in the UK Integrating with other Sikhs and being accepted, this is usually to do with the Jat community who dont wish to integrate with other Sikhs. Growing up in London with a big Bhatra community and living alongside a large Ramgharia community we both have got along very well. Infact the main temple that serves our area is very large Ramgharia Gurdwara and Bhats form half the congregation if not more. Showing that the Ramghria and Bhatra community get along fine with each other. I think this is mainly about how Bhats treated women. This has now changed women are given more freedom. To go to university and pursue their careers. Bhatras are generally more conservative the other Sikh groups. Dating is strictly not allowed in our community. This is actually nothing to do with Bhat culture. Its because we are following the Sikh teachings which forbids this kind of stuff. But people have a go at us simply for following our religion which says we should act respectful and moral. ie no going clubbing and pubbing, getting drunk ect. We are also generally known to be more religious and have a stronger belief in our faith then other Sikh groups. This is due to our very orthodox upbringing having been in the Punjab since the times of Guru Nanak Dev Ji has instilled a greater sense of honour and pride in our religion this makes us adhere to the Khalsa beliefs by being more committed, dedicated and strong in our beliefs as Sikhs. Bhatras being the oldest community of Sikhs see themselves as the most dedicated and loyal of the Sikhs for this reason. Even though centuries have gone past Bhats still adhere to the same principles that our religion teaches us. But we do not believe in caste this is evident by the different groups that joined our community. We generally kept a low profile due to being humble but now we are starting to raise awareness about our community.

JagSawSingh, Okay maybe that was another person. But back to the main topic. One thing we need to remember is that many Sikhs groups started out as poor. I am sure Jatts did not start out wealthy and with silver spoons in their mouths. They were infact classed as Shudra low caste by the Hindu caste system and openly to admit to being of peasant origin. Lets look at the definitions of peasants peasant (ˈpɛzənt) n 1. (Sociology) a. a member of a class of low social status that depends on either cottage industry or agricultural labour as a means ofsubsistence 3. an uncouth or uncultured person a poor smallholder or agricultural labourer of low social status (chiefly in historical use or with reference to subsistence farming in poorer countries). "peasant farmers" 'an ignorant, rude, or unsophisticated person'. Should we use this definition to label all Jatt peoples character? And are sure that there were no criminals in the Jatt community? Your making out that Jatts are squeaky clean and never do anything wrong. Going back to Bhatra Sikhs. Lets just establish what is correct. Bhatras are a mix of the native Punjabis that converted to Sikhism from the 16th to 20th centuries.These people include Rajputs, Khatris, probably even Hindu Jatts themselves going by some surnames that Bhats have, The Bhats didn't just go there for the fun of it. We went there to carry on Guru Nanaks message and we systematical brought many Punjabis to Sikhism regardless of their origin. This is how the Bhatra population grew so big. It was recorded at an early period that Bhatras brought so many to the Sikh faith, that 20 mounds of salt were consumed with their meals by the followers. Hence why Bhatras consider themselves the original Punjabis. What period did Jatts enter Punjab and what period did the Bhatras enter this land and mixed with the local population. You are making out that Bhatras are purely From utter Pradesh. Which is blatantly wrong. Most Bhats are of Indo Aryan origin. This is due to the huge amount of native Punjabi's that were converted by the Bhats and thus they became Bhatras. As I said this included various groups from the Sikh communities that exist today. Back then these people were all Hindu. The jatts were not born in Punjab they obviously came there from another place hence you cant class them as native Punjabi's. Infact Bhatras have more right to class themselves as Punjabi's as we were there long before anyone else hence we have built up a bigger connection to this place in terms of our roots ans ancestors. I it any wonder that Bhat Sikhs see themselves as the most 'Pakka of all Sikhs' We have a stronger affiliation to Punjab then the Jatts or other Sikh groups. We have lived here for centuries way before any others turned up. I can trace my roots in my home village of Amritsar going back many generations. Trust me in terms of being Punjabi while Jatts may glorify this in songs or films about being Punjabi. There is not truer Punjabi then the Bhatras. We don’t need to glorify our affection, connection and roots with this land in songs, it is in our history, psyche, identity and our blood. Most Bhats are very light skinned also especially the ones in india and have Aryan features. Its actually quite astonishing. I think this is to do with the Bhats that migrated out of punjab. They were probably the slighly darker skinned ones. The fair skinned ones it seem migrated less out of Punjab.

JigSawSingh, I think you have gone slightly off topic. You seem to be making a mistake that lot of people make by judging an entire community based on seeing a handful of Bhatras and coming up with assumptions based on little evidence. Yes there maybe some Bhats who are slightly darker skinned but. Just because you maybe slightly darker does not mean you are from south India. There are many Jats that are dark skinned does that mean they are not native to Punjab? Being a Bhatra and having seen a wide range of Bhatras from all the UK to back In India. I can honestly say that the Bhats are mostly light skinned.Which is why I think you are getting your wires crossed. Many Bhats are infact very light. It depends what clan they are from. Most jats I know are are not exactly light skinned either. No Bhatra has heard of uttar pradesh if we did we would know about it. Dont believe everything you read in these books by white people who often dont know their own history let alone complex ethnic make ups of Punjabi communities. As a Bhatra we started out as Brahmins and then mixed with native Punjabis of Punjab thus forming a new community the Bhatras. This is after they converted to Sikhsism by the Bhats who were missionaries. Hence our surnames come from the different groups of Punajb. I guess some people cannot accept this and would rather hold onto their old fashioned wife's tales to make themselves feel superior over others. No offence but being a Bhatra and knowing our history inside out with personal information and knowledge of the collective Bhat Sangat . I think am I better to judge were we come from and our origins. Then someone who has read a few snippets of information of some old prehistoric inaccurate book by white guy who dont know their own history. These people often confuse Sikhs for Hindus even today let alone when then these articles were written. I will ask again . How comes Bhatras dont have those strange sounding south Indian names? Or sri Lankan names?? The facts are plane obvious. we are a diverse mix of native Punjabis. When I go to a Roudh wedding it is often difficult to distinguish these people from Greeks. See This video of my cousin Jay Status who my cousin. does he look south Indian to you? His name is Sukhwinder Roudh. As I have said there some dark skinned Bhats, but you get dark skinned people in all communities including Jat/Tharkan/Khatri. Dont judge the entire community based on a few dark skinned Bhats you have seen. Have you been to Bhatra wedding? You will be surprised by how the skin color actually widely differs. from very light skinned almost white to darker skinned. This is due to the diverse ethnic make of these people.

I think you might be on the wrong side of a rolling pin( Velna) if you said that to a Bhatra woman. lol Bhat women did not work,not because they did not believe in hard work ethic. It was because they were banned from working by Bhatra males as a form of protecting them. Bhats are very protective of their women. Hence this is not the fault of the Bhat women. Infact Bhat women worked very hard and have a very strong work ethic but only in the environment of the family businesses. As Bhats mainly started out as self employed running business and shops there was no need for Bhat girls to work in factories as they already had a job in their family shops were they worked very hard. This is why you did not see large scale Sikh Bhat women working in the factories as there was simply no need for it back then. Now that Bhats have now started moving out of self employed businesses. Bhat women are now given the freedom to work and study as they wish. I am not sure what Bhats you have come across in the UK but most of my relatives going back from the first generation that setlled in the UK worked, worked and worked all the lifes from the day we stepped foot on english soil. Wether this be in factories/railyway or other waged jobs. Not all Bhats worked in the self employed businesses. Many also worked in the factories like other Sikh communities. one of my relatives worked for Yorkshire railway for 40 years as an engineer others worked for other well know industries. infact I dont know one relative of mine in the last 100 years that has not worked. So I find your post very offensive and ignorant to all the hard working Bhat Sikh community. As I already mentioned Bhat Sikhs are ethicaly Punjabi. Most of the Bhats are made up of Rajputs and other native Punjabi warrior clans. This is why our surnames are not of south Indian origin. Can you explain that? If we was from south India we would not be into Nihang traditions and sword fighting. We would all be dal eating vegetarians. But the Bhats are known for chopping up Goats like the Nihangs. We are in essence the real, authentic and original Punjabis. Other Sikhs groups are the new commers hence why we kept our turbans long after we came here while others removed them. As I said the Bhats are a diverse group made up of many ethnic native Punjabis. These are people lived in Punjab way before the Jats or other communities arrived. The only reason Bhatras dont have a higher public profile is because the Jat is the majority in Punjab. Bhatras also speak authentic Punjabi. South Indians are also usually tame and soft people. Bhatras are not like that. They are very strong willed aggressive and steadfast in their beliefs.

This is not in any way about caste . It is simply to widen the knowledge and understanding, whilst also rectifying many misconception of the Bhat community. In addition to help explain the wider issues surrounding the place in History of the Bhatra Sikh community I think there is some lack knowledge of the Ethnic origin of the Bhat community in the UK due to people’s lack of awareness of the community. Or not much data compiled on. Although the original Bhatras were Saraswat Brahmins Hindus, that was just the beginning of them as a community. The original Brahmin Bhats were in fact only small in number and constitute a small percentage of Bhat People as a whole. . As is the traditional Brahmin occupation they are involved with religious duties hence why Bhats were involved in running the historical Sikh temples in India and all religious duties regarding those matters. Even now most temples are run by the Bhat Community in india. One of their duties of these early Bhats was to spread Sikhism in Punjab and the surrounding areas. They immediately began converting the mostly indigenous Punjabi Hindus who were in the Punjab at the time to Sikhism. This was mostly in the Amritsar/Sialkot/Lahore. The people they converted tended to be from Aryan warriors clans as these were the inhabitants of the Punjab during this time. Also Sikhism needed Warriors to defend the religion at the time so Bhats naturally went for he strong warrior Punjabis groups to join them.When these people became Sikhs they naturally became members of the Bhat community and also brought along with them their surnames. This is the reason that Bhats contain Rajput/Gujjar/Khatri surenames. Over the time they gradually lost their original Brahmin traditions of spreading the religion and became a distinctive community in their own right. Bhatras today would rather be associated with their true Sikh warrior origins,with their warrior heritage of the respective clans in fighting for Sikhism. .

If Bhats were as that person describes in his book, how did Bhatra’s manage to become first people of Indian origin let alone Sikhs to migrate out of India to the UK and had the business acumen to start up business soon after we arrived. We single handedly pioneered immigration to UK for all Asians of the entire indian subcontinent. The Bhat community was firmly established in Britain as early as the 1920’s while other Sikh communities had not even stepped out of Punjab let alone India. They only started to arrive about 30 years later after seeing the success of the Bhats. In the beginning we started out in sales because we came to the UK with nothing much to our name as did most new immigrants into a new country. This was only temporary though and done by the older generation of Bhats. As we saved enough money we started opening shops and businesses. Today the many Bhats have become muti millionaires and owners of wholesale warehouses particularly in aldgate in east London and all over the UK. This is a testament to the business acumen of the Bhats who came to Britian with very little other then their passport. All this during the 1920’s The Bhatras are a hard working community who believe in working hard in line with the teachings of Sikhism. Does this sound like the kind of people who lie around and do nothing. Not only this but when we came to the UK we immediately began finding a place for the the Guru Granth sahib we brought along with us. My Grandad came to Glasgow and built the first Sikh temple and my other close relatives built the first Sikh temples in Manchester and Cardiff respectively. This was all down to the hard work of the Bhats. Who remained strong and kept their turbans in the face of hostile racism during those early days when there was us only us Bhats Sikhs in the whole of Britian as the only people of Indian origin. As we are diverse group with many different clans making them up. This inevitably lead to the success of the Bhats varying between the different cities they settled into also. From my experience the most successful Bhats were those that migrated to Bristol, Manchester, Glasgow and Cardiff Doncaster/Leeds. The London Bhats were also very succesfull. In terms of how modern they are is also relative to which cities they went to. The Bristol/Nottingham and Leeds Bhats tend to be more modern and less strict. With girls being allowed to go to further education at a much earlier period. Modern Day We have now all become more modernized and all now go to universities were they have excelled. All my family of 2 sisters and 2 brothers and I all went to uni and got degrees at top Unis. What held Bhats back before was that we would not let women work or go into further education. This has now changed. This is one of the reasons that’s Bhats have now become more accepted by other Sikh groups is because we have modernized and more open to mix with other Sikh groups. Before we would not mix with other Sikhs as we deemed them to be to modernized. Ie the way they dress even the older married women all were English clothes which is not acceptable in our community. In The Jat community many work in low skilled Jobs in factories even now. Ie in sandwich /catering factories. But you won’t find any Bhats in these Jobs. Warrior racial ethnic origin of the Bhatras What you have to understand is the racial makeup of the Bhatras. Bhats fought for Sikhism against the Mughals and there were many brave Bhatras who laid down their lives for Sikhism. The Bhats contain many warrior Clans such as the Roudhs like myself as well as Rathore and Taak who of Rajput ancestry, to name a few. They are known for being on the front line when fighting against the Mughals. Not all Bhats are from Brahmin heritage half if not more 70/80% come from fierce warrior lineage. Due to this the Bhats are also known for being very well built in their physiques. The Bhats started out as Sarswat Brahmins in small numbers but as is the nature of Brahmins they are involved in religious duties such as bringing people to Sikhism. These early Bhat Brahmins were successful in converting mostly warrior Hindus who came from the Rajputs/Gujjars and other warrior groups from the Punjab to Sikhism as well as the Roudhs clan and many others. Due to this fierce racial mix of Bhatras we have a reputation of being very fanatical in our Sikh beliefs and having a great sense of honor in our community of keeping the traditions of the Khalsa. Many Bhats still keep weapons they used against the Mughals as memories of their warrior past. Many Ethnic Punjabi Hindus who lived in Amritsar were converted to Sikhism by the Bhats. Hence why many Bhats come from this area in particular. This is due to the Bhats being missionaries and bringing as many people to Sikhism. Roudh ethnic origin Roudh (Indo Aryan People) are Bhatra Sikhs who came to India from Rhode Island in Alexander The Great's Army During the invasion of India. The historical evidence that supports this theory is that the Roudh surname used to be spelled Rhode (as in the Isle of Rhodes; part of the Greek archipelago) which indicates a link to our, outside of India origins, to Greece. Secondly we know that Alexander got as far as Punjab and that's where the majority of us Roudh Bhatra's lived until partition. Also many of those he brought with him in his army decided to stay in India as the journey back home was too exhaustive. Furthermore as Rhode People began to mix with the Indian People They took on some of their customs and the Orginal name Rhode. due to lack of a precise spelling later on came to be known as Roudh when they became Bhata Sikhs. Due to the unorganized times in those days no one thought it of significance to record this bit of history. Due to this many Bhats are very light skinned as they came from aryan warrior clans. As for that guys comments in his book. Im pretty sure that this is down to sour grapes of the Bhats telling him were to get off. Bhats are willing to fight for their beliefs and their religion but they are not going to fight for some racist British people who are going to use and exploit them for their own personal gain. The British were well known for their divide and rule tactics used on the Punjabis hence his comments to try and divide Sikhs comes as no surprise. It benefited them to keep the Punjabis divided.

Yes they arrived by Ship as they migrated during the 1920's to 19'40s as this was the dominate form of transport in those days. When the ships would arrive they would first dock in the sea ports as that is a ships entrance in UK. The Bhatras had contact with Punjabi sea merchants and would export/import goods into the UK. Most Bhats settled into Britain between world war 1 and world war 2. In Britain’s ports – Glasgow, London, Liverpool, Cardiff, Swansea, Bristol, Southampton and Portmouth. With only a few inland settlements in Edinburgh, Birmingham, Manchester, and Nottingham. In essence the Bhatras are still hugely concentrated in the ports of Britain apart from London, Nottingham , Manchester, Edinburgh where they have migrated inland to some degree. But the main population of Bhats remains further out. Saying this I am from London and live in areas with a big Bhat population. London being the exception as it draws more people to it from all the other cities. The post– 1945 migrations of Jats and Ramgharias was predominantly to industrial cities of the north of England(such as Bradford, Leeds, Southall and also midlands – Birmingham, Leicester, Coventry.

Most Bhats do not live in traditional Sikh areas like Southall, Ealing, Handsworth, Hounslow hence why they are probably not as visible as other Sikh communities. This then gives a false impression that Bhatras are a small community when infact they are a very large group in the UK. This is starting to change though as more Bhatra are now moving into the big cities such as Birmingham/Nottingham/London ect to take up professional jobs. with regards to meat being served in Gurdwaras. Having been to probably most of the Bhat Gurdwaras up and down the country I can categorically say I have never seen this occur in all my life. I am not exactly sure were this false suggestion appeared. Bhats are very very orthodox in their beliefs and would not dare eat meat on the day they attend the Gurdwara let alone eat meat in the actual Gurdwara.

Well I have not been to some of these cities in quite a long time so I dont know what the current makeup of these regions are. But going from the last time I went there the Bhats were the Majority . Maybe this has changed though in recent times as new Sikh communities have moved. I know for sure that Edinburgh is mostly a Bhat Majority area aswell as the other cities I mentioned. As I said many Bhats are moving away from these places and moving to the big cities. for some reason the Bhat community likes to stay in mainly white areas as this is what they are probably use to. The Bow Gurdwara on Camphall road is very interesting and I do recall some kind of story behind it. I think there was some kind of disagreement in the Bhat Sangat as to where the new Temple would be built or something along those lines. Im not to sure but I know there was a fight and some kind of split in the community about it. My Uncle was married in the Bow Gurdwara about 24 years ago so maybe he knows. I still go to this Gurdwara occasionaly. But due to Bhats being very close knit COMMUNITY they can sometimes become a bit nosey into your personal matters. I prefer to attend the local Ramgharia or Jat Gurdwara I can be left alone without being asked a million questions. Plus its alot closer for me to travel to.

In relation to your question I am not 100% sure of that but I got this info regarding your question from Wikipedia Bhat Vahis were scrolls or records maintained by Bhatts also known as Bhatra. The majority of Bhat Sikhs originate from Punjab and were amongst the first followers of Guru Nanak. Bhat tradition and Sikh text states their ancestors came from Punjab, where the Raja Shivnabh and his kingdom became the original 16th century followers of Guru Nanak, the founder of Sikhism. The Raja's grandson Prince Baba Changa earned the title ‘Bhat Rai’ – the ‘Raja of Poets, and then settled himself and his followers all over India as missionaries to spread the word of Guru Nanak, where many northern Indians became Bhat Sikhs.[1] The majority were from the northern Brahmin caste (Bhat clan),(Bhat (surname)) as the Prince Baba Changa shared the Brahmin heritage. The sangat also had many members from different areas of the Sikh caste spectrum, such as the Hindu Rajputs and Hindu Jats who joined due to Bhat sikh missionary efforts. The Bhats also contributed 123 compositions in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib (pp.1389–1409), known as the "Bhata de Savaiyye".[2] There hereditary occupations consisted of bards, poets, missionaries, astrologists, genealogists, salesmen. According to Nesfield as quoted in W. Crooke, The Tribes and Castes of the North Western India, 1896, Bhatts frequently visited the courts of princes and the camps of warriors, recited their praises in public, and kept records of their genealogies. Bardic tradition as a source of Sikh history[edit] These bards constantly attended upon or visited their patron families reciting panegyrics to them and receiving customary rewards. They also collected information about births, deaths and marriages in the families and recorded it in their scrolls. These scrolls containing information going back to several past centuries formed the valued part of the bards` hereditary possessions. A group of Bhatts was introduced to Guru Arjan, Nanak V, by Bhatt Bhikha who had himself become a Sikh in the time of Guru Amar Das. According to Bhai Gurdas, Varan, XI. 21, and Bhai Mani Singh, Sikhan di Bhagat Mala, he had once visited Guru Arjan with the sangat of Sultanpur Lodhi. Some of the Bhatts who came into the Sikh fold composed hymns in honour of the Gurus which were entered in the Guru Granth Sahib by Guru Arjan. These Bhatts and their successors too maintained their vahis in which they recorded information concerning the Gurus, their families and some of the eminent Sikhs. These old vahis are still preserved in the descendant families, now scattered mostly in Haryana state. Their script is bhattakshari, a kind of family code like lande or mahajani. During the late 1950s, a researcher, Giani Garja Singh, obtained Gurmukhi transcripts of some of the entries pertaining to the Guru period, from Guru Hargobind (15951644) to Guru Gobind Singh (16661708) through Bhatt Man Singh of Karsindhu village, in Jind district. Some of these were published as footnotes to Shahid Bilas Bhai Mani Singh, edited by Giani Garja Singh and published by Punjabi Sahitya Akademi, Ludhiana, in 1961. The rest are still in manuscript form lying in the Department of Punjab Historical Studies, Punjabi University, Patiala. These extracts provide valuable information regarding dates, places and events of the period. The Bhatt are an Indian caste; Brahmin, traditionally employed as genealogists, found mainly in North India,[1] with a smaller minority found in Pakistan. They are also known asRai Bhatt and Brahm Bhatt other sub title as Bandiji, Barna, Barwa, Bhargava, Bhatela, Maharaj/ Rao, Raja/ Rai, Kavi putra (in Hindi a poet), and Dasaundhi. The Bhat are a caste who traditionally the genealogists of a number of North Indian castes. The northern Indian Sikhs have a Brahmin Bhatt heritage, and are known as the Bhatt or Bhatra sangat and were amongst the first followers of Guru Nanak.[2] Contents [hide] 1 Origin1.1 Sikh Bhats 1.2 Bhatt of South India 2 See also 3 References Origin[edit] In Gujarat the Bhat are known as Barots.In Rajasthan the Bhat are known as Rao.In Orissa Bhat are known as Baikar,Rai,Darwan,Sharma. Other names include Rao, Kavi (in Hindi a poet), and Dausandhi from dasham or tenth, i.e. one who is entitled to a tenth part, as it was customary for a chief to give his bard a tenth of his own income. They are divided into a number of sections, the Naqib or flag bearers in a procession the Nazir or ushers who introduced visitors to a Rajah, the Nagaria or players of drums, the Karaola who pour sesame oil on their clothes and beg, the Panda who serve as priests of Devi and the Baraigi Bhat who beg from Bairago and keep genealogies of the temple priests. Other Bhat sub-groups include the vuna, Brahmbhatt,Raibhatt, Jaga, Vartishar, Chandisar and Kutichar[3] In addition of being genealogists, the Bhatt are also famous puppeteers and with their string marionettes or katputlis, they used to travel the countryside holding village shows. Sikh Bhats[edit] In areas such as the Punjab most of the Northern Hindu Saraswat Brahmins and some various other northern Hindu castes, such as Rajputs converted to the Sikh Bhat/Bhatra sangat during the missionary efforts of prince Changa Bhat Rai who earned the title “Bhat Rai”, who was the grandson of Raja Shivnabh, a Hindu king who had met Guru Nanakand converted to Sikhism during the 16th century.[4] (Bhat clan) During the 14th to 16th century many Saraswat Brahmins were forced to lead unsettled lives due to religious oppression, unable to practice their hereditary profession as Hindu priests, artists, teachers, scribes, technicians class (varna). They used their academia in there unsettled life travelling as scribes, genealogies, bards and astrologists. In the 15th century the religion of Sikhism was born causing many to follow the word of Guru Nanak Dev Ji. Even though Sikhism itself does not support separation by caste, the social system meant that the Bhatra followed a hereditary profession of travelling missionaries, scribes, genealogies, bards astrologists and itinerant salesman.,[5] however it is not uncommon to see Bhats in other professions such as farming and retail

First of all this topic is in no way to promote caste it is merely to educate people on the Bhatra Sikh community of the UK and India to dispell much misinformation about them due to a lack of knowledge. It is not a caste but community of Sikhs. This is due to a lack of awareness from most Sikhs who do not come across Bhats or have never heard of their Surenames and do not know any information about them. The Bhatras are one of the three main Sikh communities In the UK and India. The 3 being Ramghiria- carpenters- Jatt Farmers Bhatra - Traders/Businesses men. The Bhatra community is by no means a small community they are vast in numbers both in India and the UK but scattered densley throughout the UK. In areas that are not traditional Asian or Sikh areas. ie they mostly live in white middle class areas of Glasgow, Edindburgh, Bristol, Ipswitch Cardif, Southampton, Portmouth, Newcastle, Liverpool, Preston, Peterborough. And to a lesser extent but still a sizeable population. London, Manchester, Birmingham, Nottingham, leeds, Ilford. Who are the Bhatra Sikhs? They are a Brahmin origin community who were the first to settle in Britain and hence became the first settlers of the subsequent Sikh immigration to the UK. When word spread that Bhatras had successfully established themselves into Britian. This then spread throughout Punjab and more Sikhs from other communities such as Jat and Ramghira started to immigrate after hearing the success stories of the Bhatras.The Bhats also provided the new communities with links and help with settling into the UK . They also built the very first Sikh temples in Britian. The Orgins of Bhatras The Bhats originate from the Saraswat Brahmins Hindus of north India. Who lived on the banks of the now-extinct river Saraswati of Pakistan Punjab or Kashmir. This connection with their Brahmin roots is also evident in that that Bhatras still retain their priestly attributes in similarity with the Brahmins. Most if not all of the Historial Gurdwaras are run by the Bhats and most of the early Bhats carried out much of Guru Nanaks missionary work/religious scriptures, writing ect.. In similar with the Brahmins they are known for being excellent in astrology. Saying this as the Brahmins are known for being priestly/missionary and religious community they naturally preached to people from all communities hence some Bhatras are made up. of people from other Sikh communities also, such as Rajput/Brahmin/jat/tharkan ect after being preached to by the Bhat Sikhs. Saraswat Brahmin The Bhatras/Bhats were originally northern Saraswat Brahmins, round 1900 BC, the river Saraswati started vanishing under ground and the people on its banks started migrating to other parts of South Asia thus forming sub-communities. During the Islamic invasions of modern day Pakistan and India, many Saraswat Brahmins were forced to flee due to religious oppression. During the 14th and 15th century many Saraswat Brahmins were forced to lead unsettled lifes, unable to practice their hereditary profession as Hindu priests, artists, teachers, scribes, technicians class (varna). They used their academia in there unsettled life travelling as scribes, genealogies, bards and astrologists. These Brahmins Bhats soon converted to Sikhism due to the word of Guru Nanak Dev Ji and due to missionaries such as prince Baba changa Bhat-Rai. The first Sikhs of Guru Nanak The Bhatras are the oldest Sikh community of all and most converted to Sikhism during the 16th and 17th Centrury. Ie they converted to Sikhism from Hinduism during Guru Nanaks very earliest times after Guru Nanak preached to them and followed him all the way back to Punjab from places such as Kashmir and areas surrounding Punjab. This is very different to other Sikh communities who converted to Sikhism much later, during the time of Guru Gobind Singh Ji. Lack of awareness of Bhatra community – Only Singh and Kaur names are used The Bhatra community generally does not shout about their community name/Gotra names in songs/movies ect. Hence people simply do know of them due to this. Most Bhatras also fiercely retain the tradition which was instructed by Guru Gobind Singh Ji. Of only having Singh or Kaur in their last name in fact it is unheard of of Bhatras to keep their family names. As they believe it is more important to have Singh or Kaur in their official name. This is to stop people from going down the line of caste and being proud of ones particular caste. Hence you won’t come across a Bhatra surnames like you would for instance a Jat or Tharkan name like Sandhu or Bansal. Hence people often do not come across any Bhatra surnames in their life to become aware of who they are. Even though they might meet or see Bhatras all the time. Although Bhatra community is very successful especially in owning business and shops you wont actually come across a shop or business with a Bhatra surname in it. It is always Singh or Kaur. This makes us as a community stand out less due to having no distinctive names to distinguish us from the rest of the Sikh communities. This is very different from the Jat and Tharkan community who will 99% of the time keep their family name and not even have Singh or Kaur in their name. Hence this further makes people unfamiliar with Bhatras. The Bhatra community place more importance in only have Singh or Kaur in line with the teachings of Sikhism.Although sadly this is starting to change during last decade. As some Bhatras are starting to copy their Jat and Tharkan brothers and now having their family name as officially on their birth certificates ect. Geographic Location of Bhatra community in the UK Another reason for the unfamiliarity of the Bhatra community is their geographic locations in the UK. When Sikhs first settled in the UK. They all first lived in seaport areas as they naturally came to the UK on ships in those days not on planes. Most other Sikh communities moved on from here to the big Cities like Birmingham London, ect to take up waged employment in the factories ect. But a lot of the Bhatras preferred to stay in the seaport areas and not move to the big cities as they were mostly already self-employed owning shops and businesses as this is their traditional occupation so they so no reason to move and leave their businesses behind. So this is the reason why many people do not see large Bhat populations in the big cities. They are mostly concentrated in the original places they migrated to in the UK. These include areas near sea ports such as Glasgow, Edinburgh, Manchester, Southampton, Cardiff, Swansea, Doncaster, Preston, Newcastle , Liverpool. In these areas the Bhat community make up the Majority of the Sikh community in all these areas. As can be seen The Bhats are scattered around all over the UK from all the way in the South of the Country to all the way up Scotland. But most other Sikh communities are concentrated in West Midlands, London, Southall ect making their community stand out more. This is now changing though as Many Bhatras want to take advantage of the greater opportunities in education there are in the big cities many are now starting to move to big cities such as London, Birmingham, Manchester, Nottingham ect to study or work as doctors, accountants, lawyers ect. A Bhatra Sikh wedding in Nottingham Famous Bhatra Sikhs - Jay Status - Sukhwinder Roudh - UK Bhangra Singer from Birmingham Most common Surnames in the Bhatra community Roudh - They are mostly associated with coming from Aryan ancestors/Greek. known for their warrior fighting come from Amritsar. Bhakar - This one is the most associated with the Brahmins out of the Bhat Clans. Still perform some Brahmin rituals just for tradition purposes they are starting to stop this as most Bhats dont agree with them doing it. based in Ambala and Dehli. Rathore - They come from the Rajputs - Known for their warrior fighting Landa One of the Biggest Bhat Clans Bance Most business orientated Digpal Similar to Bhakar Clan Potiwal - Most traditional of the Bhats Taak also Rajput ancestry Thariwal - Very Fair skinned . Aryan ancestors Due to Bhat Community being involved in missionary work the Bhats also include surenames from other Sikh groups. Such as Rajput/Tharkan/Khatri/Jat When these people became Sikhs and Joined into the Bhat community they brought their surenames with them. Hence Some Bhats have mixed ancestry. But the Majority of Bhats exclusively are of North Indian Brahmin origin.Hence most Bhats are light Skinned but some are darker skinned depending on what part of Sikh spectrum they are from. Bhats consider themselves to be the true Punjabis and Khalsa as most originated in the Punjab. Particularly Amritsar as this is the Most holy of Sikh places and Bhats were naturally drawn here from the 16th century. There ancestors of course were in the Punjab many centuries before this.