Lion(LK)King
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Posts posted by Lion(LK)King
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The first article reminds me of Jews in Hitlers time, being burnt or soemthing similar :lol:
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isrIrwgu ]
qohI mohI mohI qohI AMqru kYsw ]
knk kitk jl qrMg jYsw ]1]
jau pY hm n pwp krMqw Ahy Anµqw ]
piqq pwvn nwmu kYsy huMqw ]1] rhwau ]
qum@ ju nwiek AwChu AMqrjwmI ]
pRB qy jnu jwnIjY jn qy suAwmI ]2]
srIru AwrwDY mo kau bIcwru dyhU ]
rivdws sm dl smJwvY koaU ]3]
sireeraag ||
thohee mohee mohee thohee a(n)thar kaisaa ||
kanak kattik jal thara(n)g jaisaa ||1||
jo pai ham n paap kara(n)thaa ahae ana(n)thaa ||
pathith paavan naam kaisae hu(n)thaa ||1|| rehaao ||
thumh j naaeik aashhahu a(n)tharajaamee ||
prabh thae jan jaaneejai jan thae suaamee ||2||
sareer aaraadhhai mo ko beechaar dhaehoo ||
ravidhaas sam dhal samajhaavai kooo ||3||
Sree Raag:
You are me, and I am You-what is the difference between us?
We are like gold and the bracelet, or water and the waves. ||1||
If I did not commit any sins, O Infinite Lord,
how would You have acquired the name, 'Redeemer of sinners'? ||1||Pause||
You are my Master, the Inner-knower, Searcher of hearts.
The servant is known by his God, and the Lord and Master is known by His servant. ||2||
Grant me the wisdom to worship and adore You with my body.
O Ravi Daas, one who understands that the Lord is equally in all, is very rare. ||3||
http://www.sikhitothemax.com/Page.asp?Sour...ID=269&Format=2
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Wicked post MKLK.
Couldn't put it better myself :lol:
we need to boycott these photos of men in robes and beard drawn my artists to represent the physical of our Guru, which doens't matter anyway since Guru Ji never was the physical, but the Shabad :cool:
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I have already posted by opinion. As a matter of fact, I have no opinion. Gurbani hi Gurbani :lol:
Paro, Labh lo, ya ignore karo - tuhadi marji :cool:
I have done my best by quoting Gurbani. If Gurbani doesn't seem sweet to you and hurts you or our opinion then that is your problem. Deal with it.
kbIr KUbu Kwnw KIcrI jw mih AMimRqu lonu ]hyrw rotI kwrny glw ktwvY kaunu ]188]
kabeer khoob khaanaa kheecharee jaa mehi a(n)mrith lon ||
haeraa rottee kaaranae galaa kattaavai koun ||188||
Kabeer, the dinner of beans and rice is excellent, if it is flavored with salt.
Who would cut his throat, to have meat with his bread? ||188||
http://www.sikhitothemax.com/Page.asp?Sour...D=5156&Format=2
Bhagat Kabeer ji tells us to eat simple. Nowhere does he sa: "hey! You can't eat heavy food as aspiritual person!!.. Hallo!!! Listen - you can't be spiritual and eat a lot of heavy food"
In the same way, if Guru Shaib tells us to live a Grist jeevan, there is no need for him to condemn a celibate, since he's already gone against a life of celibacy, when telling us to get maried.
There's not point in quoting Gurbani anymore, sinse you have already made up your mind, and no matter how much Gurbani tells us to live a grst jeevan, we will have to make a choice, are we goign to make an excuse on "Gurbani doesn't say its wrong not to get married" or are we actually going to practise it?
Are we going to eat light, and simple food or are we going to say "Just because Gurbani tells us to eat light food doesn't mean we can't eat heavy food if we want to"
It's just bahane-baji.
Gurbani is clearly telling us to live a life of a Grist jeevan, there is absolutely no need to clearly emphasize that it is wrong to stay unmarried, since they've already showed that in their own jeevan, and the jeevan of their close associates (Baba Buddha Ji, Baba Deep Singh Ji etc). There is not a singl evidence anywhere in Gurbani acknowledging celibac, or not living grist Jeevan.
This will be my last post in this thread, since no-one has been able to post anything from Gurbani. When someone bothers to refer to Gurabni, and ask Guru Ji the answer to questions, I will come back, but until we as Sikhs don't start asking our Guru about our issues, there is no point, and it's bound to end up as a fruitless debate, without any faida or labh, if we do not consult our Guru.
Please consult your Guru. If you can consult with Guru JI, and you can uote Gurbani, then there is a healthy discussion, but if you will not even care about Gurbani says (which you claim you do, but have practicle ignore Gurbani, and havn't been able to back up a single sentance with Gurbani)
gur ibnu Goru AMDwru gurU ibnu smJ n AwvY ]
gur bin ghor a(n)dhhaar guroo bin samajh n aavai ||
Without the Guru, there is utter darkness; without the Guru, understanding does not come
gur ibnu suriq n isiD gurU ibnu mukiq n pwvY ]
gur bin surath n sidhh guroo bin mukath n paavai ||
Without the Guru, there is no intuitive awareness or success; without the Guru, there is no liberation.
guru kru scu bIcwru gurU kru ry mn myry ]
gur kar sach beechaar guroo kar rae man maerae ||
So make Him your Guru, and contemplate the Truth; make Him your Guru, O my mind.
guru kru sbd spuMn AGn ktih sB qyry ]
gur kar sabadh sapu(n)n aghan kattehi sabh thaerae ||
Make Him your Guru, who is embellished and exalted in the Word of the Shabad; all your sins shall be washed away.
guru nXix bXix guru guru krhu gurU siq kiv nl´ kih ]
gur nayan bayan gur gur karahu guroo sath kav naly kehi ||
So speaks NALL the poet: with your eyes, make Him your Guru; with the words you speak, make Him your Guru, your True Guru.
ijin gurU n dyiKAau nhu kIAau qy AkXQ sMswr mih ]4]8]
jin guroo n dhaekhiao nahu keeao thae akayathh sa(n)saar mehi ||4||8||
Those who have not seen the Guru, who have not made Him their Guru, are useless in this world. ||4||8||
http://www.sikhitothemax.com/page.asp?ShabadID=5414
Unless you consult and quote Guru Ji, where he acknowledges celibacy, there is no point in discussing this anymroe :cool:
Bhull chukk maaf
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You seem to know more Punjabi than average "white man" as you put it
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(f) Marriage may not be preceded by engagement ceremony. But if an engagement ceremony is sought to be held, a congregational gathering should be held and, after offering the Ardas before the Guru Granth Sahib, a kirpan, a steel bangle and some sweets may be tendered to the boy.
Doesn't this class as dowry of a kind?
Insha, jeyo there is no reason why this should be class as a dowry, since it says may, in other word it is not a must. Some Punjabis (since they are like they are) don't like to go "khali hath", so instead of giving, cooking pans, furniture, beds, hondas, marutis, and what not... One can simply give a Kirpan, Kara and some sweets.
That's pretty simple, compared to typical Punjabi dowry stuff.
m) If the girl's parents at any time or on any occasion visit their daughter's home and a meal is ready there, they should not hesitate to eat there. Abstaining fromeating at the girl's home is a superstition. The Khalsa has been blessed with the boon of victuals and making others eat by the Guru and the Immortal Being. The girl's and boy's people should keep accepting each other's hospitality, because the Guru has joined them in relationship of equality.Please read the entire Rehit Maryada, and you will see how superstitions and other anti-gurmat elements are banned in it :lol:
bhull chukk maaf
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1 - Considering Bhai Gurdas Ji says that a Sikh is designed for Gristi Jeevan, I very much doubt he was not married.
2- SSM veer jeyo/bhen jeyo you asked me to rpovide Gurbani, even after reading my post? contradictory.
3 - SSM veer jeyo/bhenji, you quote me out of context.
Just like Gurbani says do Naam Japna... nowhere does it tell you: "You may not not do naam Japna"
(please not the double negatives :lol: )
If Gurbani mentions, that a Sikh is desgined for grist Jeevan, than that is simply fair enough for me.
It is, IMHO silly to ask Guru ji to write:
"THERE IS NO WAY YOU CANNOT STAY CELIBATE!!!!"
Guru ji, has told us to live a Grist jeevan. For me that is enough. If someone wants to stay celibate, it is their choice, but it cannot be argued that is has ANYTHING to do with Gurmat, nor can it be argued that it's a concept acknowledged in Gurmat, since there is not a SINGLE PANGTI, in Gurbani even acknowleding celibacy, however there areloads to support grist jeevan. Two of them have been provided above. It is now your choice whether you decide to follow Gurbani, or not.
I will base my argument on Gurbani. If you can do that too, i.e. proving a point using Gurbani (i.e. Guru's mat) that would be really nice...
Not tha I'm expecting any quotes from Gurbani from anyone pro-celibacy, sicne no-one has ever been able to do so, so far.
Let Guru ji decide and make decisions.
Guru Ji acknowledges Grist Jeevan, and tells us that a Sikh is designed for Grist jeevan. Please, show us where Gurbani acknowledges otherwise :cool:
bhull chukk maaaf.
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Yeah was checking Sikhtoons as well. that is SOOO AMAZINg, I so dig tha bibi for doign what she did!!!
We need to see more such cases :lol:
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Before you go for it. Think again and again, because it's a hard path. I do not want to discourage you, but I tihnk that when you have studied Gurbani, and Gurmat, and are 100% sure you want to go for it, then you shuld go for it :lol:
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Well considering only one can have the most water,
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Someone want to write up a professional letter?
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I asked for Gurbani quotes and havent got any.
I skimmed the thread link and didn't find a quote where Guru Ji say no to unmarried ppl so whats with u saying that Gurbani is clear on the issue- I'm so happy that Gurbani is clear on the issue we are discussing but how about u just direct us on the panna at the very least.
Please read the thread, and not skim in future.
Please re-read my previous post.
I have not only provided link to Shahab, but even quoted it for you :lol:
Although it doesn't say that "unmarried people aren't accepted",
but the quotes by Bhai Gurdas Ji are clear that a Sikhs jeevan is designed to fit in the grist jeevan concept :cool:
GrbwrI gur isK hoie isKw sUqR ml mUqR ivfwxY]
gharabaaree gur sikh hoe sikhaa soothr mal moothr viddaanai||
The Sikh being householder abnegates tonsure, the sacred thread (Janeu), etc. and forsakes them like abominable faeces.
Bhai Gurdas Ji describes the Sikh as "GharBari", i.e householder.
http://www.sikhitothemax.com/page.asp?ShabadID=5680
Guru Sahib didn't just say that marriage didn't hinder spirituality but also made the Sikh a "gharbaree", or householder..
crx srx ilvlIx hoie sYNswrI inrMkwrI Bwey]
charan saran livaleen hoe sai(n)asaaree nira(n)kaaree bhaaeae||
Even a worldly person here, concentrating upon the feet of Guru, becomes dear to God, the formless One.
http://www.sikhitothemax.com/Page.asp?Sour...=&ShabadID=5905
Those who have already made up their opinion, will not care less what Bhai Sahib Bhai Gurdas Ji Says, and will begin jsutfying other people's actions. Bhai Gurdas Ji's words are clear. Gurbani is clear. If one still has issues, it'äs because they have made up their mind and won't change it no matter what.
It is evident SSM jeeyo, that you have not come to read, but only to post you're opinion.
Just after my post with the abvoe quotes, you posted your view..
Two posts later you ask me where I have quoted - seems like you didn't read my post to begin with
Are you only here to share your determined opinion, or to learn what Gurbani saying
Whereas we can see from our ithehas, that a Sikh should NOT leave his family to do seva, as seen with Gurmukh Pyaarey liek Baba Buddha Jee, Baba Deep Singh Ji, (I think! =>) Gyani Kartar Singh ji Bhindrawale etc.
It's evident that all Gurmuhsk in history have been married.
Let'd devout time on reading Gurbani, and seeing waht Gurbani has to say on the issue, instead of holding on to our opinion. People have obviously been skipping over the Gurbani quotes, and later on questioned: "WHERE HAVE YOU PROVIDED QUOTES????, SHOW MEE!!!"
If you had followed the thread to begin with, and read what others have to say instead of only throwing out your own opinion you would see.
Bhull chukk maaf
GrbwrI hoie inj Gr jwey ]ù]
gharabaaree hoe nij ghar jaaeae ||a||
Becoming householder, man resides in his innate nature (atman).
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Please refer to my previous post where I gave a link to a previous thread, where the descendants of Baba Deep Singh Ji have been discussed.
The view of Gurmat is clear. Gurbani is clear, If Someone still decides to disagree, it is their opinion, and not in accord to Gurmat :lol:
Recently a lot of people have started saying that Baba Buddha Ji and Baba Deep Singh Ji were celibate. History tells us both were married.
Solid evidence has been provided in the previous celibacy thread
http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?showtopic=16643&hl=
No reason to keep this thread going, since theres a similar one above.
Gurbani is clear on the issue. If someone decides to disagree with Gurbani, Guru Ji's jeevan - it's their decision.
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Bhaji, are the people in the middle east, in their thousands burning flags, and putting plates like "Danish: You are not welcome here"
and kidnapping innocent Europeans, done by a minority?
It is extremely sad that, although most European Muslims try to say that the people doig ti are minority, we can read about it in the news daily, and see pictures of thousands yelling and burning flasg in these countries :lol:
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Well, support gore - make muslims angry, support muslims - make gore angry.. What's the solution?
Stay armed and neutral :lol:
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[tripple post]
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[double post]
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This is a pretty long post, but worth reading :lol:
Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa!Waheguru Ji Kee Fateh!
Brother Jass Singh Ji,
You write, "No circle can be a square because squares have four straight sides and circles don't."
How can you be so sure?
This is the Twenty-first century. We need to quit being entrenched in the old rigid logic from the dark ages and need to move forward. As much as I would like to, it is difficult to find time to respond to your lengthy missives. There are at least two or three threads from the past that are still loose and unfinished. I regret leaving them that way and I do not want to start another one before we finished those discussions.
I would rather be writing about the free will versus the Hukam. But I feel I need to respond to this topic. I liked Hannah's simple explanation. After an adequate explanation, if someone cannot understand contrasts in figurative language in the poetry, or discern its proper context, then, either that person is simply unable to comprehend at present, or is simply too brainwashed to understand. Wisdom is necessary to understand the scripture, much more so than logic.
Logic is bound by, and, is based upon what we know. There was a time when people believed that woman was created from man's rib and that the earth was flat. Until the Nineteenth century (except for the Gurus) everyone thought that light, or time, traveled in a straight line, but, in the early Twentieth century, scientists like Einstein and Swarzchild declared that this was also a mistake. We are still working on it, and we will continue to work on new ways to apply physics and mathematics to understand and define the universe and its intricate laws.
Guru Ji said, "When the creator expanded, unlimited living beings were formed. Whenever you drew everything in, all forms became absorbed into you." (Chaupai, Patshahi 10) The discovery of black holes is now starting to explain, at our level of comprehension, how this could be possible at the "physical" level.
Quantum gravity shows that time and space are not coherent (by our definition) at the level of singularity. Straight lines are in fact curved, actually a circle, if drawn far enough. The question "whether God creates square circles" becomes irrelevant in God's case, because all our definitions (square versus circles) are relative to our finite scale not to God's infinity. God is above relativity and the physical laws. Gurbani told us so, long before the scientists would confirm its significance. I have provided quotes in the recent past.
Questions like whether God created the universe ex-nihilo or ex-deo are logically flawed with bifurcation, just like your basic argument in this thread is. Your statement above is one such example.
This thread is bound to be long. But in the case of understanding SGGS, it would be a welcome sight. I would suggest that we start a new thread for each sub topic and that we stay on topic within that thread. In my profession, I am not able to promptly respond to every topic, especially the missives containing a deluge of quotes and arguments. I tend to write excessively wordy responses already.
Unless we understand them in proper context, all the scriptures appear to have some contradictory statements. As we know, Bible has been studied extensively. We are barely starting with our scriptures. Here are just a few sites regarding the Bible contradictions (I have no time to read them):
Contradictions & fallacies in the Holy Bible
http://www.webster.sk.ca/greenwich/bible-a.htm
Index to Biblical Contradictions
http://www.ugcs.caltech.edu/~werdna/contra...ons/cindex.html
A List of Biblical Contradictions
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jim...radictions.html
Bible Contradictions
http://www.ffrf.org/lfif/contra.html
Here is an apologetic page: 101 Contradictions in the Bible Cleared Up
http://debate.org.uk/topics/apolog/contrads.htm
People misuse the "contradictions" to generate doubt and frustration among people of another religion. Frustration results in angry responses, giving the perpetrator an opportunity to cry "ad hominem" "red herring" etc., causing further confusion. This is just to share my past experience with the participants here, not to accuse you of anything.
It seems that the strategy is to demand logical explanations, cause frustration and confusion, making everyone feel deficient in their ability to engage in a logical discussion and to undermine their faith. They hope that no one remembers that this is not a course in logic but an effort to understand the scriptures properly. Most of the scripture avoids logic, not because it is illogical, but because it refuses to be bound by the web of logic. If one such participant does not succeed, others are waiting to jump in and help out.
I am sure that some people from other faiths will someday compile a list of all the 'contradictions' in Gurbani. Some so-called Sikhs have already worked on Sri Dasam Granth Sahib. We should study them and write proper explanations and rebuttal. But there is no need to waste too much time arguing with someone who refuses to see Gurbani in its proper light.
Let us look at just one example for now. If possible, we could apply the same principle to other such passages. I am not sure if this one is listed in the prior messages. "The Vedas as well as the Semitic books are fabrications, O brother, they do not relieve the agony of the heart" (727:7) and "Do not say that the Vedas and the Bible are false. He who does not contemplate them is false." (1350:5)
In the first verse, Kabir Ji addresses the Christians/Muslims and Hindus who follow the stories in their scriptures literally. They are deluded into thinking that their salvation is guaranteed by following certain rules given in these stories or a certain person from the past, or by worshipping a statue, while they ignore God who is with us, face to face, all the time. They ignore that the real search is inside their own heart, not outside. In their case, all the scriptures become useless paper and ink, not just the Bible, Koran or the Vedas. This applies to the so-called Sikhs as well.
In the second verse, Kabir Ji addresses the hypocrites, be it a Mullah or an atheist, or a "Sikh" who is devoid of religious yearning and blames the scriptures for his doubts. It would also apply to someone who is adamant that there are contradictions in scriptures. Here Kabir Ji admonishes him to apply the wisdom of the scripture thoroughly and correctly. Kabir Ji explains that the reason for his doubts is, selective understanding. For example, torturing living beings in the name of God but ignoring that the scripture also says that God is in everyone.
I am sure we could go on for months dissecting some "logical fallacies" contained my explanation here, depending upon whether we have a real desire to understand Gurbani, if we want to understand it spiritually or only logically, or if we just want to find reasons to argue.
But there are absolutely no contradictions in Gurbani. I hope this example above helps you understand and view the other passages in the same manner. Even though this implies that you may be mistaken, please do not call it an ad hominem fallacy. And please do not try to pigeonhole everyone's reply into some form of a fallacy. It does little besides being an attempt to evade the issue by causing diversions. Try to just state your own disagreement along with your reason for doing so.
If you still have a difficulty in reconciling them, then, rather than beating around the bush arguing over the abstractions, let us study one verse at a time, as I have attempted above. If you do not agree with my explanation, please teach me why you do not.
Thank you for your instructive messages.
Yuktanand Singh
Saline, Michigan, USA
http://www.sikhnet.com/Sikhnet/discussion....33;OpenDocument
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Komagata_Maru
http://www.punjabonline.com/immigration/koma.html
make a search on google for Komagata Maru for more info :lol:
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Nice blog. Appreciated the shabad you posted (in your first few posts)
Keep it up :TH:
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Stay neutral.
No need to get into this kind of politics. Let the Groey politicians and mulims handle it (considering gorey ain't gonna let it happen).
Sikhs should continue with their Candle Vigils, Tsunami and Katarina seva projects :lol:
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I'm the only one who think's Chadhas Bend it like Beckhams wasn't a great images of Sikhs? Not sure, since it shows how SIkhs have become stupid and started praing infrotn of photos painted by an artist 300 years after the Gurus themselves :lol: .
Shows how stupid we are. What it also shows is that SIkhs are idolizers for those who don't know a lot about Sikhi (which is the vast amount of people watching the movie, since it was pretty internetional)
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Ironic how the three PP killers of Bhai Jaswant Singh Khalra (Human Rights activist, who dod loads of Seva, and inspireds loads of sevadars to do Seva, such as Ram Narayan Kumar, Bibi Cynthia etc)
all have Sikh first AND last names.
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So what you're saying is - he couldn't make a single statement about the dastar issue in France, after the G8 meeting, when the whole world's media attention was on the G8 meeting?
Not a single statement to Chirac sitting beside him: Bhrava we do loads of business with france, could you "slightly" sort out the turban issue :lol: ?
No doubt, In Sikhi the sin would not be eating the apple of knowledge, but the sin would be eating it and not using it in the wrong way.
Biggups for having immense knowlege, Hopefully he will start using it for the benifit of humanity, and not nuclear and atmoic weaponary :cool:
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Converting To Sikhism
in WHAT'S HAPPENING?
Posted
Vaheguru JI Ka Khalsa Vaheguru Ji Ki Fateh
I was in no way turning him away, and apologize if that is how it sounded
I simply think it is important for non-sikhs to reall realise that the path of Sikhi is not easy, and merely converting will not get you anywhere, like other religions say. Unless you work on spiritual jeevan, we ain't getting anywhere, whether we're Sikhs, Muslims, Hindus or Christians, it doens't matter. Whereas other religions promise mukti as soon as you convert and believe in their prophet, Sikhi does not, and this is something that people should know, so tha they don't convert with the crave for Mukti, since Guru Sahib says, Raaj na chao Mukt na Chao Man preet charan kamalarey.
p.s Found it fun how an average white man knew so many words of Punjab, already before converting :TH:
Bhull chukk maaf If i had said anything wrong, against Gurmat
Vaheguru JI Ka Khalsa Vaheguru Ji Ki Fateh