taran0

I've never seen that book before that you linked in your post, looks like a book written by Nidar Singh in 1998, there's loads of interesting history on Sikh fighting arts and historical context in that book. Thanks for the link to the PDF.

yes its actually very interesting - in those days nidar didn't seem so bad and was just trying to teach gatka but at the same time you can see signs of him forming his mythical legend that he is the 9th shastarvidiya... sorry 5th budha dal chatka gatka master. :biggrin2:

and the main word here is GATKA - that all of nidars students scoff and jeer at like arrogant fools ... Thieu own ustad was a gatka teacher HAHAHAHAHHAHA... brilliant i told one of his ex students recently and his face was like " what!!??? " he said "your lying" i said " nah its on his own website".

after this he added the escrima, kali and silat stuff and then said its an ancient nihang art of sanatan hindu sikh shastarvidiya - so when the nihangs from budha dal ranjti akhara saw it they thought what the hell is this and he never even met baba giana singh while we lived and learnt from him.

its ok to mix arts but why LIE ? and claim it to be ancient and pratan and then pass yourself off as the LAST Sikh warrior of this fake art. Only a charlaton does that no matter how knowledgable or skillful you think he is - he is a proven LIAR !

the book is brilliant and all we need to prove hes been lying and changing his story.

his cult members obviously will ignore the anomalies and errors, and just concentrate on everything else

its like when you tell followers of fake babas that he lied about this and that and he has been accused of this -

they say "NAHEEEE !!! he helped us and we have seen his miraculous powers you are evil haters...."

so you just have to leave them to it.

His students are deluded into thinking a mythical martial art will protect them

in a brawl in the street it's anyone's game - i seen Seasoned martial artists <banned word filter activated> whooped in just a street fight, too much ego

you cant be in a false sense of security no matter what martial art you learn there's always someone out there who will kick your arse

cisco can you ask nidar to answer the call to fight - we have some mma fighters who want to challenge him and see how good he really is.

We are going to push for this now publicly and call him out just like he did to the gatka artists many years ago.

that dadhi vaar my brothers is Gian Singh Surjeet if i'm not mistaken - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwTWELiwaak

some badass lyrics in that dadhi - hearing the roar of the lions the mountains shake !!

on another note we found a book called "The Fighting Traditions And Fighting Arts Of The Traditional Sikh Warriors" written by Nidar from 1998 when he hadns created teh sanatan cult and guess what no mention of SANATAN hindu Sikh Shastarvidiya actually its used to be called Chatka Gatka. there is actually no mention of the word sanatan anywhere i searched the document except for where he recounts one story where snatni vegetarian hindus were shocked by dead flesh. :blink2:

So as you so evidently can see is that nidar used to teach gatka and then developed it into Chatka gatka and the whole sanatan last ancient master of the arts came about many years later in the UK when he realised he could market it to the west if he faked his own lineage and backstory.

whats more interesting is that no mention of him being a 9th generation shastar vidiya ustad

I Nidar Singh am a fifth generation Ustad of Budha Dal . I received my ashrivad (Blessing) from Baba Santa Singh supreme leader of all Nihangs in 1993 . After eleven years of study and Kmai (hard work ) . When I was taught and now when I teach it is solely to preserve and propagate the ancient true Khalsa Sikh Warrior meaning Shiromni Akali Nihang Budha Dal Panjva thakht’s traditions . (Nidar Singh - 1998 )

Akali Guru Gobind Singh Ji also personally taught his Sikhs Chatka Gatka . (Nidar Singh 1998)

he also writes some strange stuff about his ustad that he never really knew the guys name or the master never gave him a lineage.

My Ustad Ji never told me his name nor did I ask him I referred to him as Baba Ji .

...My own Ustad all ways remained Gupt (Concealed /Anonymous / mysterious) and asked me after he was gone not too seek him and let him remain Gupt . He even went as far as to say do not even speak of him

Nidar Singh (1998)

and this is the bit that is SHOCKING :wow: nidars ustad didnt have a name and never gave nidar thapi and never even told what who his lineage was (until he made it up)

He was known as Rab meaning God . Because of his unmatched Gatka skills , knowledge of weaponry , horses , Gurbani and his fearless honesty . My own Ustad , who was one of his students , all ways referred to him as Rab only . For many years I thought by this he meant God . It was not till latter when I heard Baba Kundan Singh the Jathedar of Baba Deep Singh Shida Dee Missal Pikh Vindi Tarna Dal refer to Baba Gian Singh as Giana Rab . That I realised who my Ustads Gatka teacher was and my Dada Ustad was . Then when Baba Ram Singh another student of Rab Ji saw my Chatka Gatka . He commented this is Chatka Gatka of Baba Savan Singh . Hence my Ustad who never revealed his true name for he was a Gupt Bhangam ( Wondering Nihangs who conceal their identity ) Singh was Baba Gian Singhs student . Akali Nihang Baba Gian Singh Ji died around 1968

(Nidar Singh 1998, )

thing is if you ask the Nihangs Singhs in budha dal they never mention anything of chatka gatka

Making a personal profit in any form from Chatka Gatka is forbidden . It is usually hankering for material profit which leads a person to abuse an art , religion ect. (Nidar Singh 1998)

so why all the seminars and his sudden change of heart that this shastarvidiya is open to everyone etc when in the book he states his ustad and nihangs were secretive and private of the art.

there's just so much <banned word filter activated> to sift through i don't know where to start - his students will never see sense because they want to believe the fantasy and are completely deluded like people in a cult. No matter what proof you give of his obvious lies and fraudulent misuse of nihang ideology and past military successes they just wont see sense because their egos are better served when nidar goes up on a you tube video dancing in a rave video and foreigners go WOW because its a bit exotic and he shows some swords.

the best thing is the evidence is right up on their own website so they cant claim we have changed or doctored it
http://www.shastervidiya.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/The-Fighting-Traditions-And-Fighting-Arts-Of.pdf

its there for the meanwhile they might take it down because it proves hes been concocting the story over a few years adding bits here and there.

I have to agree

Gursant Singhs campaign against 3h0 is bordering on obsessive and veangeful

He's seems to be quite a scary character who has a very dark side to him that is extremely bitter towards the world.

an overwhelming support for human rights in outside countries like canada and uk has an influence in India

also the media and internet revolution in india means it harder to keep people in the dark about whats going on, they have access to free media coverage which wasn't previously available. People are more able to communicate news and whats going on in retain areas.

the indian governments lack of action further pushes people to dissent and speak out, and the fact the whole indian system is corrupt and based on money doesn't help

there is not any Sikh who can look at India since independence and not feel any pain for how our people have been treated.

Sanatan outlook and beliefs, when read, do not initially give cause for concern and can seem quite acceptable to most open minded people. While i am sure there are genuine Sanatan Sikhs out there unfortunately there is a darker side to the current resurgence within the UK.

It all sounds great on paper, but in actual practice there are some problems with the rehni behni (lifestyle) of the sanatan groups within the UK, which has caused great concern amongst the rest of the sangat. I have spent a great deal of time amongst some of the fringe members so have a good understanding of how things work. I have also had the pleasure to sit and talk with many of nidar's ex-students who have given us a very good understanding of Nidars practices.

Some Sanatan followers use of alcohol and casual use of drugs has caused a lot of cause for concern in the UK and some Sikhs think that it is better to confront and curb the growth of these practices by educating young sikhs who are potential recruits for the sanatan Cults.

their main preachers within the UK are Jagdeep Notay (Nihang Teja Singh) and Surjeet Singh Bains (Nidar Singh), a controversial Martial Arts teacher who claims to be the last and only living master of the art of shastarvidiya. His bold claims have been proven to be false as baba pritam singh an elder generation student of Baba Giana Singh(nidars grandmaster) still teaches in Patiala. Nidars master also did not spend much time with the grandmaster - Baba Giana Singh lived and taught amongst the Nihang dals for a majority of his life. Therefore it is very unlikely that there are were not other practitioners of Shastarvidiya. A more plausible scenario is that Nidar was the first to market the art to the west by embellishing it with various other martial arts and a tempting origin story. An attempt to make it more palatable to a western audience.

Surjeet Bains first came to fame 12 years ago when he very egotistically offered to challenge all other Gatka ustads. A challenge that was neither legally possible nor the rules enforceable by any judge or martial arts body meaning he could claim himself unchallenged.

Surjeet Bains cleverly claimed himself to be a Nihang and sold the sanatan ideology as the way of the Nihangs philosophy. News of his exploits soon reached back to india and the Nihangs rejected his ideology and do not accept him as one of their own. The Nihang groups in India wrote a letter disowning him and called for him to be reprimanded by the Akaal Takht Sahib. The letter was confirmed with 4 of the 5 jathedars who signed the letter.

Surjeet Bains also upset a majority of the Sikh Sangat by ridiculing and insulting their traditions and beliefs therefore ruling out 95% of the sikh population from ever learning his martial art. His criticism of well known and respected shaheed Singhs such as Bhai Fauja Singh and Sant Jarnail Singh has further offended a majority of Sikhs who celebrate and respect their sacrifice. This has distanced them from from the wider sangat and caused many Sikhs to actively campaign against their movement. to this day they refuse to take down these offensive comments.

He has been known to make spurious claims that Sikhs are not a separate faith but a part of the wider Hindu religion. He even named his martial arts school"Hindu-Sikh Shastarvidiya”. His previous Shastarvidiya website took many quotes from gurbani out of context and even changed some meanings to claim the Sikh gurus where in fact worshipping hindu deities. Once these were brought to light his classes were banned from various sikh Gurdwaras. As he realised he was losing support and students he proceeded to drop the "Hindu" description from his name and then replaced his website with one containing content that would be more acceptable to the sikh audience, in a bid to regroup lost numbers.

They seem to place a large emphasis on the physical and are very sceptical of spirituality and mysticism, which is why they cling to history and are obsessed with what some people might have practised in 1800's rather then what the Guru prescribed within Gurbani or Rehitnamas. They have been known to reject spiritual practices altogether stating that they are unnecessary for a soldier.

These type of Sanatan group are very small in number but they are supported by organisations such as UKPHA, Kashi House and GT1588, which are 3 diferent names for the same organisation, who promote sanatan ideology by covertly implanting it in their books, publications and exhibitions. They recently won £430,000 worth of Lottery funding to do a project on Sikhs in the World Wars.

Essentially anyone that believes in the timelessness and universality of Truth can claim to be sanatan. I believe as per gurbani that the devtey and rakhsish existed and Gurus wrote about them in gurbani as examples. But we do not worship them we only worship akaal purkh who is aad sach jugaad sach habhi sach nanak hosi bhi sach. I believe that truth has always been but it is named different in all ages, so there is no Hindu or Musalmaan or Sikh in Gods eyes. I believe that every form has Gods light including the prophets, devtey and all people and beings that have existed. I am quite open minded and liberal in my views, so in a way I could call myself sanatan aswell.

The flavour of snatan ideology taught by nidar, seems to be more of a ploy by Nidar to mislead the youth and grow the ranks of his personal cult which opens up reht maryada to an epic level of looseness - virtually no rules whatsoever. Further evidence of this is that he is only surrounded by young people as there are no respected elders who join his group or who endorse him. His students also tend to avoid contact with normal sikh people or reading and singing of scriptures, instead choosing to distance themselves and claim superiority over them due to them knowing the "true" version of Sikhi.

we still have no hatred for Nidar and his students we just hope they will see sense and take heed of gurbani and work for the support of the sangat and betterment of the panth rather then being so narrow minded and only serving his own gain through martial arts.

More detailed information can be found here www.shastervidiya.org.
this website was setup to counter Nidars views from his website - nidar and his students often claiming to be universal and against fanaticism or fanatical Sikhs, but we received the same sort of fanatical threats and offers of duels and fights to the death to prove ourself from his own group. When asked what the parameters of the challenge would be we received no reply. various underhand tactics have been used by nidars group such as reporting us to counter terrorism unit and calling the workplace of a fellow researcher claiming him to be a gang member.

The problem is nidars students never look at the whole, they only ever look at the narrow parts that can keep them believing - it is a common condition in cult members where they will ignore the many faults and fixate on one event, or one aspect of the cult leader so they can keep on saying to themselves but he did this or i remember this incident so he must be true.... but step back a little , leave your emotions for a second , go and meet a few other people , go beyond the classes listen to people who have the opposite view with an open mind rather then closed , and you will see the whole big picture. lets say for one second that you open up to the possibility that Nidar may be exaggerating a little.

Nidar is just a normal man like you or me - no one is invincible and no one but Vaheguru is beyond fear.

its easy to manufacture a legend - all he has achieved is to divide - court controversy and gone out of his way to insult us and our brave heroes

if he had any ounce of wisdom he would have brought people together with respect and improved the situation we are all in - yet he has made it worse he chooses to surround himself with like minded people and sheds the sensible ones who are genuinely there to learn. His own actions and behaviour are a detriment to his own students as they then have to alienate themselves from their wider sangat. HE only gets on with people who will see things his way - does he have any friends from different jathebandees or are all other non-believers off limits

he has been teaching for 15 years yet he has produced no heir - he has insulted all his students by going in national newspapers by saying he is looking for the next "last Sikh Warrior" , which means his own students are just mediocre and not good enough

he has an agenda and he abuses his martial art to drive it into young peoples heads...

he cares not for the consequences that his words have on his students.... and many of his students have said its not his fault what students get upto... but his students candid attitude towards drugs and alcohol is evidence of bad teaching.

the most ridiculous thing I have heard is - and if you could please address these points as i think this is where i'm having trouble understanding....

1) Nidar learnt from the nihangs in india - yet the nihangs in India don't know shastarvidiya ?

2) Nidars teacher Learnt from Baba giana singh alongside other singhs like Baba Pritam Singh (who is still alive and has ACTUALLY lived with baba Giana Singh) but then how come Nidar is the only one with the original vidiya despite never meetign baba Giana Singh?

3) so Baba Giana Singh taught so many budha dal singhs shastarvidiya, yet NIdar and his master were the only ones who he taught the authentic stuff to? what was wrong with all the other nihangs he taught?

4) Who made Nidar the last teacher of shastarvidiya? when was the ceremony and which elders were present when this ceremony occured? did he just appoint himself?

so this means one of two following is true;

1) either all the nihangs are completely fake and useless as they couldn't even learn a martial art when the master was living amongst them all HIS LIFE- and only nidar's master was able to learn the authentic art to pass onto Nidar alone. This would also make Baba Giana singh a pretty useless teacher, if in all those years of learning and teaching he only taught ONE STUDENT properly!

..or....

2) Nidar learnt the same stuff they learnt and then just made up the rest, embellished it, but read a lot of books did his research added some western silat, jkd, etc marketed and sold it in the west as an ancient art and made out he was "the last Sikh Warrior" of an ancient order of Sikhs who's sole purpose is to propagate the teaching of a martial art

if you have any other scenario then I welcome your input

I'm not your enemy just because I'm asking the wrong questions, i was in the same place as you a few years ago

I think its a good move

He's someone who saw a problem and tried to do something about it , but it got hijacked by racists

so he has done the right thing by denouncing the racists and carrying on with his original goal.

well done to him.

I also think that its high time we separated islamism from normal Muslims - The extreme interpretation of Islam has to be combatted and it needs to start with imams and mosques

Last nights Exposure - Imams agreeing to marry 14 Year old girls is a classic example of this extreme "us and them" mentality where we have high ranking Imams on one hand joining councils and saying the right words in public but then behind closed walls adhering to Sharia Law which is mostly illegal in this country and immoral.

I think the games up - islamism has been outed again and again and the more people are reading up about "extreme Islam" people are starting to understand why these problems exist within the islamic community. they cant just apply medieval 1400 year old practices to modern day Britain its just incompatible, Muslims need to reform islam and start to accept that they have to modernise and accept that sharia might have been ok 1400 years ago but you cant do that now.

every time I get into a discussion with a muslim about some of the practices contained within the hadiths and koran i am told that i am either "out of context" or that i have not "studied it correctly" but that just doesn't cut it as they sometimes twist the meanings so far its ridiculous. they need to accept that that was for 1400 years ago and let it move on. I feel sorry for the decent muslims who are being dragged into this medieval sharia and unable to speak up about it because they cant be seen to criticise their faith.

The more I read about Islam the more i realise how Awesome and Beautiful SIKHI is - we have so much going for our religion its so progressive and forward thinking, i'm really proud of our Gurus who gave equality to women, equality to all castes, took religion back from the religious elite and handed it to the common man, promoted decency and respect for women and gave them equal footing and opportunities, didnt take slaves or rape women during wartime and conducted themselves with the highest exemplary behaviour befitting of true prophets of God.

Gur Bar Akaal

We must learn from 1984

The police will do nothing and are paid off by mobs

Sikhs must arm themselves, stick togwther and once again defend themselves and their Sikhi.

This is a very worrying trend in india of families now being attacked.

Maybe Gurdwara's could introduce activities, speeches, presentations or tasks that young people enjoy. If Gurdwara's could start with 2-3 sessions a month it would be a start.

Could someone draw up a list of recommendations and circulate to gurdwara's? Activities need not cost money.

For example, I know some people that would love to do seva but are too embarrassed. Why not draw up a simple list of how young people can help around a Gurdwara. When youngsters see other youngsters they too will want to join in.

I think that's a great idea as some Gurdwara's want to do something but don't have an idea of what to do. If we could give them a plan of how they can move forward.

We will not be able to introduce this system in any established Gurdwara in my opinion. The committee will not welcome it, they are too set in their ways.

The only option in my opinion is for young Gurskihs to set up 2 Gurdwaras maybe in Birmingham and London. These 2 Gurdwaras should implement the Panj Piare system. These 2 gurdwaras could set an example for the rest and demonstrate that you do not require a committee to run a Gurdwara. Also we can implement many other things that are missing from mainstream Gurdwaras such as Laridaar Saroop of Guru Granth Sahib jee along with Laridaar santhiya classes, simple langar, sikh youth classes............... e.t.c.

Also we need to become more strict when it comes to Akhand Paaths, now they have just become a ritual and a means for income. If a family wants to do an Akhand Paath then they must listen to the paath and not spen 3 days in langar hall. Instead the sewadaars of the Gurdwara should take care of the langar arrangements and this way the parwar will have no choice but to listen to the Gurbani.

Ideally the Gurdwara should be a small building, we do not require multi million pound buildings to do parchaar of Gurmat. The Gurdwara is place for bhagti and knowledge. The Gurdwara should be a place for abhiyaas of Gurbani and knowledge/vichaar of Gurbani. Further to this we need to do more parchaar on Rehit.

Bhul chuk maaf jee.

I agree and some families would maybe prefer something that would better suit them like a sukhmani sahib performed with English translation on the projector and katha in English that their children could understand.

I like the idea of a small place for youngsters to meet and worship together in a non judgemental and open minded atmosphere.

I just hope that the next generation of youngsters can stay away from the same pitfalls as the last generation such as infighting, jealousy, ego, jathebandees, inability to compromise, and un-sikh practices such as alcohol and money making schemes, etc

Will be on the show again tonight so will try to raise some of these issues.

It turns out the topic is of great concern to many people so we will be discussing the same thing again next Sunday 6th October at 8pm on Sikh Channel

I would like to ask if anyone has anything they would like to share or get across on the issue

please post here and I will try my best to share your views on air.

the Gurdwaras are unfortunately the last port of call for young people or members of the Sikh Community who need help - how can we change this?

how can we change attitudes towards the Gurdwara and its role in society?

eg- it is not the Gurdwaras job to make money, it is the Gurdwaras job to make SIKHI and Gursikhs !

Taran