TejS

35 minutes ago, MisterrSingh said:

The ones who don't possess the mental faculties to think critically will reproduce more of their own ilk, whilst the ones who are capable of introspection will always be too afraid to do anything meaningful about their doubts or dwindling beliefs, choosing to loosely hold onto the Muslim label because the alternative is too much hassle. I assure you, there is no silver lining.

I've been contemplating the Islamic issue in the West for the past few months, and I've arrived at the realisation that Sikhs shouldn't devote too much effort thinking or worrying about it. What will happen is inevitable and unstoppable. In that respect we won't be alone when the dark days arrive, because every other non-Muslim community will be in the same boat. Our priority should be our own faith and our community. That is something we surely can influence if the will is there. If the white population is too stupid and deluded to see where things will end up in 50-100 years, then maybe they don't deserve a future. Don't look to them for leadership on this issue. 

I couldn’t have said it any better.

On 2017-12-03 at 5:55 PM, lostconfussedsingh said:

Why are you people even fighting amongst yourself my fellow members ? This country uk is a just a piece of land that i don't care about or have any feelings for. I hate the uk myself and i hope it destroys.

Exactly. Let’s not forget that one of the reasons the Sikh people, WE, don’t have a sovereign land is because the British cleverly destroyed our sovereignty. They then used us as fodder, and then humiliated us on numerous events.

I can understand that for numerous British Sikhs, Britain holds a dear place for them, as it has provided a new life for them, but let’s not get too idealistic and forget that Britain was indebted to us, and not the other way around.

Anyways, why waste energy on these things at all. Protect the women of our community, and all else from the Islamic groomers and mind our own business. The only problem that we need to be tackling is why are our British Sikh women getting caught up in these Muslim grooming cases in the first place? Why do they even initiate sexual relationships with Muslim men? That is what we need to be tackling. I’m not British, but when I heard news of Sikh women being targeted by Muslim groomers, I never once heard the EDL speaking against it, but now when their own women are being targeted, they’ve suddenly realized what happened to us as well.

Imo, the EDL sees us as fodder to be used against Muslims. They plan on using our historical differences with Muslims to fuel our youth into going against Muslims, and I frankly think that energy should rather be spent in educating our children about Sikhi and who they can maintain relations with and working on making your lives better.

1 hour ago, Ranjeet01 said:

By nature, women are generally more exogamic. 

Our women are no different in that regard.

What has happened is that men have become increasingly feminised in the west. Our males are not that different. 

Muslims generally in the UK have insularised themselves to this. 

A muslim of today would find it very difficult to try it on with non-muslim females in a pre-feminised society because the non-muslim menfolk would protect their women folk. 

For all the cries of feminism and equality, what a lot of women say and how they actually behave is very different. 

The reality is women find feminised wimpy men quite pathetic, no matter how they say they want a caring sensitive man.

Our males have become wimpy and pathetic and our women are turned off by it.

Women want masculine men and our Sikh men need to regain their masculinity. 

Though I agree that men in general are losing their masculinity.

The question still remains, why do Sikh women marry out with Muslims the most?

If Muslims are more aggressive than Sikhs, well then Sikhs are more so than Hindus. But you don’t see their women running off with Muslim men at the rate our women do? 

Though I attribute that masculinity plays a huge part in attraction, I would like to mention that most UK Sikhs I’ve interacted with, like my cousins, are far more aggressive and masculine than their American/Canadian counterparts, so there definitely has to be more variables at play here. I’m also sure that Muslims despise us Sikhs more so than Hindus and thus target our women more than other women.

But what really irks me is when you have our women standing up for Muslims, like Katy Sian. I don’t see any Muslim women reciprocating that, so what I’m trying to get at is what instills that feeling of love towards Muslims in our women? I think it comes down to years of our elders demonizing Muslims so much that our children, especially our women, begin empathizing with them. I personally think this is where the issue lies.

But then again, our men to need become more masculine. And I don’t only mean aggressive, but also look the part. I’ve seen too many Amritdhari Sikhs that are overweight, unfit, and just look plain soft. These men need to harden up.

Also as @MisterrSingh mentioned what the Muslims are doing, why don’t we actively bring womenfolk of other religions into our fold? Why is that we are letting our women marry out, yet ourselves do not marry out to bring other women into the fold. If Khurram can get a Sikh women to have Muslim children through simple attraction, then what’s stopping us. I often hear fellow Sikhs saying numbers aren’t important, but let’s be honest, it’s all a numbers game when the going gets tough.

There’s definitely an issue in the way we’re raising our females. Because out of all the girls from the diaspora, it’s Sikh girls that marry out with Muslims the most. This trend is becoming far too noticeable to ignore. Why are our females in the West, especially in the UK, marrying Muslims? I mean if they’re bent on marrying out then why not white Christians, or Punjabi Hindus? Why is it mostly Muslims?

I can only attribute it to one thing and that is the parents. I personally think when our elders demonize Muslims, which by the way is rightly done - we have suffered too greatly at their hands, then the Muslim becomes a forbidden thing for the Sikh youth. When a parent tells their child that he/she cannot marry a Muslim at all, they realize that’s what they can’t have. And human psychology works in a way that you want to have what you can’t have, and so their ultimate act of rebellion becomes marrying a Muslim. And I think because of the frequent interactions Sikhs have with Muslims in the UK, and given that Muslims are found everywhere in the major cities of the UK, Sikh parents have to ingrain this rule of not marrying with Muslims sternly. Whereas in the US/Canada, we’re usually told it’s white people we can’t marry, and it’s not so surprising that when North American Sikhs do marry out, it’s usually with a white partner.

So what I’m trying to get at is that perhaps parents shouldn’t even bring up Muslims,  but that’s hard for us Sikhs, because so much of our latter history is intertwined with them. So how can we prevent ingraining in our children that Muslims are a forbidden fruit, that they have to have. I think it personally comes down to teaching them about the religion’s corrupted morality and the history of Muhammad.

1 hour ago, Jai Tegang! said:

I think one aspect we may be ignoring is the social structures in our grandparents (the 1947 generation ) and parents (1984 generation). Strong immediate  family ties and strong extended family ties.  Large large families with lots of chachas tayeas bhuas fufars mamas mamis. Several dozen cousins closer than present day siblings. Plus the village pind structure acting like one big family. 

There simply was no room for abandoning sikhi.

I think we need to bring back our big family structure. We all need to contribute ?

The smaller our families. The more isolated and prone to disseention.

Absolutely agree with this post.

But the problem is that in Western countries, like the US/UK, its hard to have large families living in the same region due to work and financial differences. I think its one thing to be surrounded by fellow Sikhs, but another to be surrounded by family. So its possible to live in a Sikh area in the West, but its very difficult to surround yourself with family. That's why you have Islamic sexual grooming cases happening with Sikh girls so often in the UK.

Also, having plenty of siblings is a must. Not only for Sikh population growth, but also for companions that help/protect/share with you. Children with multiple siblings are far less vulnerable to converting out than a single child for example.

Marriage, escorts, online pornography, philandering "with a gori" is not going to improve anything. You're dealing with sexual addiction, and even if you were to marry, and by the way no one should marry just to satisfy their sexual needs, its not going to fix the addiction. In fact I've heard of many marriages get destroyed due to partners being sexually addicted. You need to get to the root of the problem, which is your mentality.

Your constantly thinking about sex because you aren't busy enough. Easy way to break away from all of this is to get busy, and I mean real busy. Burn yourself out each and every day, but do it with meaning and purpose. Define a purpose, apart from a religious one, in your life. What do you want to be in 10 years? Work towards that goal. I'm currently working towards becoming a physician, and day in and day out it's what keeps me going. I suggest you find a life goal, a major goal, and work towards it. Get off the Internet, its a great informative world, but its hell as well! Limit your Internet usage, or whatever outlet that you get your sexual material from, limit it and then cut it off completely. You mentioned you were visiting webcams at night, well maybe you need to tire yourself out so you aren't up at night browsing webcams. Go to the gym, work on your body, tire yourself out so that the only thing you're doing at night is sleeping.

I'll just end off by saying that you will fail the first few times because you're addicted. And any addiction can't be cut off immediately, it takes time. You're gonna have to gradually cut off the porn consumption, and trust me, when you do that, all those sexual thoughts that cloud your mind will clear out. Put your focus to somewhere productive. And as far as Sikhi and meditation goes, when you feel most vulnerable, read Gurbani. It'll not only distract you but inspire you to control your kaam.

Another thing where you said if you "let it out with a gori" is not going to fix any thing. Stop fetishizing white women, blonde women, women in general, and sexual pleasure isn't something that can be satiated, it has to be kept under check. So keep it under check!

Simple reason is you can’t and you shouldn’t.

But that’s only an option if you’ve thoroughly taught your children from a very early age about Sikhi. And I mean sit down and explain everything you yourself know to the children about Sikhi. My parents did this and naturally as I grew I began to compare the religion to other religious systems, and I realized the flaws they had and realized that Sikhi was best for me. Most Sikh youth get swayed by other religious converters because parents didn’t bother to impart Sikhi properly to children. Forcing your child to grow kes isn’t teaching our kids Sikhi. Telling them the meaning, importance behind it, and encouraging them to grow kes is what leads to teaching Sikhi.

And if there’s someone who is willing to change religion for marrying someone, then no matter how many threats and fears you throw at the person, like Muslims do, will not make them realize and accept the religion. In fact you will be subjecting that individual to a life of misery and lie.

And if someone has decided that religion is not something they want in their life at all, you can’t stop them either.

And if someone has decided that God does not exist at all, then you once again cannot stop them. 

Those last two decisions are extreme and are usually undeterred by any means of persuasion.

But by imparting Sikhi to our children, those who are most likely to follow a religion will follow Sikhi and will not be easily swayed to convert.

But then again this is all a matter of ethics, morals and perspectives. Someone might rather wish to be gifted 72 virgin females in heaven rather than be absorbed back into the Creator. 

1 hour ago, 13Mirch said:

Just a digression but Dayal Singh, I believe, was an Arya-Samaji.

No but close. He was part of the Adi Brahmo Smaj. Nonetheless, a name change cannot be warranted.

9 hours ago, AjeetSinghPunjabi said:

Indira gandhi was a power-hungry woman, no doubt.

Akali Sikhs were the most rebellious to central govt of India in 1977 emergency. And she put a LOT of people behind bars. And I think she just had grudge against Akalis, perhaps not Sikhs in particular. I think we tend to exaggerate the anti-sikh attitude of the then prevailing govts. 

It is possible that she attacked akal takht as a vengeance against akalis in their role in 1977 , but I think to assert that she wanted total annihilation of sikhs like aurangzeb did , is a bit far too stretched. She wouldn't have appointed Zail Singh as president then , also would have provided nothing to sikhs. 

To sum it up, I think she was a power-hungry totalitarian politician who wanted to clear anyone off her way. She hated sikhs for this I think, not because of some brahmanical agenda as is always said . 

I could be wrong though 

Agreed. Indira Gandhi isn’t exactly the stereotypical Brahmanical figure. She did after all marry a Parsi, and her son went onto marry an Italian. These aren’t the actions of a Brahman. And her grandson, Rahul, isn’t exactly a poster boy for Hindu nationalism. Indira Gandhi was slighted by a handful of Sikhs, and she took this personally and to break our pride launched this attack. Both sides suffered, but the price our community had to pay was far too great. And no point in blaming other communities, when our own are our worst enemies. When you have people like K.S. Brar heading attacks on their own sacred shrine, that’s when one can see that our community is spineless. When you have people like KPS Gill executing the youth of his own people, that’s when you know we’re divided. When you have our own police torturing, raping, killing our people that’s when you know that our community has no future. If we had been united back in 1984, I’m sure the outcome would have been different. But forget 1984, we’re not even united today, I’m sure what’s going on in the news is testament to that.

If there’s any Brahmanical agenda we need to worry about then the closest thing to that is the BJP. Look at what they’re up to now:

https://thewire.in/199729/dyal-singh-college-renaming-vande-mataram/

1 hour ago, Prokharkoo84 said:

You are chatting about your gay preferences on the wrong site, this forum is for promoting Sikhi, teaching others and trying to lead by example.

Agreed with the fact that the users posts are verging on vulgarity, and a religious forum would be the last place to post these. 

I personally think if any individual has any questions about sexuality, they should be discussed on this forum, but making crude and borderline sexual remarks on a religious site is very disparaging behaviour.

I don’t have anything against AjeetSinghPunjabi, and don’t want to offend him, but I ask that he please refrain from posting overtly vulgar and inappropriate remarks.

Not sure if this has been posted before, but this is one of the most beautiful  recitations of Sukhmani Sahib I’ve ever had the pleasure of hearing:

I'm not trying to be critical here, but isn't one of the reasons for growing out our hair and beard is so that we don't focus too much on our appearance in trying to keep up with worldly trends and dwelling on different styles.

Let the beard grow as it will, don't care for it. I'm not saying don't take care of it, but who cares how it grows. By dwelling on the appearance of your beard, you've ultimately defeated the purpose of growing it out. Who cares what it looks like, you're focus should not be on it anyway? 

I may be wrong, but this is how I honestly feel. And tbh I use to dwell on this as well, and it only brings more worrying and anxiety, just forget about it and you will find peace with whatever your appearance looks like.

14 hours ago, Ranjeet01 said:

Complacency sets in very quickly with our people.

Agreed 100%. It is the reason our community hasn't reached it maximum potential.

On 2017-11-17 at 3:58 PM, MrDoaba said:

I agree that Punjabi has its roots in Sanskrit and in fact holds more importance over Farsi, but that doesn't mean Farsi should be cast aside. If we cannot agree on the degree of connection between Punjabi and Farsi then a consideration should be made as to where the bar is set for Sikhs in pursuit of it specifically, if not for the writings of Bhai Nand Lal Ji, then at least for Guru Gobind Singh Ji's Zafarnama.

On the topic of academic pursuits, an effort should be made without question to acquire good hand knowledge of Sanskrit.

It's worth mentioning that Vedic Sanskrit and Old Persian actually share some similarities.

 

Punjabi, aside from having loanwords, also shares the same word order as Farsi - Subject, Object, Verb. Although this could well be a coincidence, I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't.

What has given you the impression that anyone in this thread has an inferiority complex? For the majority of us, Punjabi is our maa boli and takes precedence over any other language. The fact that some have a piqued interest in a secondary language which unquestionably has had a significant influence on our mother tongue, whether through conquest or not, does not all of sudden warrant the accusation that one has an inferiority complex. Punjabi has many dialects, some which are more Persianized and some which are more Sanskritized, and even that doesn't determine how Punjabi is spoken - a lot of it is down to personal preference and exposure. I have yet to find someone who speaks Pre-Persian Punjabi or has completely removed any Persian influence. Punjabi during the emergence of Sikhi most likely already had quite a degree of Persian influence, possibly not as much as today, but it still had it nonetheless. It has evolved like most languages and we are talking about the form relative to Punjabis and Sikhs throughout early modern history and current day.

My DNA test didn't tell me anything I didn't already know, and had it come back with higher percentage of Indigenous Indian, the topic of Punjabis/Sikhs learning Farsi would still be under discussion and actually already has been. Likewise, the fact that many Punjabis are more ethnically Persian doesn't mean we are denying our actual heritage - Bharati. While I despise the politics of modern day India, the fact remains that Punjab culturally, geographically, linguistically, socially, and religiously was, is, and will always be a part of Bharat despite any land borders past, present, or future, and any political designations. A fact that many Sikhs find bitter, and a fact which if in agreement with, will also surely cause the term 'inferiority complex' to be bandied about.

Anyway, it's not as if I've been suggesting we all apply for Iranian Citizenship at the earliest possible chance and start stuffing our faces with kabobs now is it.

These days in order to qualify as someone who doesn't have an inferiority complex, you must be a Pro-Khalistani Singh Sabhia who follows Reform 'Sikhism', and believe all Sikhs appeared on earth through immaculate conception and came with their own pure culture and divine language which to this day has been entirely uninfluenced by outside factors.

 ! پیروزی به هندوستان

Why shouldn’t Sikhs set aside Farsi? It serves us no purpose. As a community, we have no need for Farsi at all. Sure, as an individual, you can learn Farsi for your personal interest, but don’t go on with the community having to give some importance to Farsi. As for the writings of Bhai Nand Lal Ji, well he was born in Afghanistan, where they spoke and still speak a dialect of Farsi, and so he was taught that language from an early age and it was the language spoken around him, thus he began to write poetry in that language from an early age. As for the Zafarnama, well let’s not forget that Guru Gobind Singh Ji wrote it to address Aurangzeb, a Mughal Emperor, who spoke Farsi, the official language of the Mughal Empire. So I don’t see it as a surprise that he would compose it in Farsi. And one doesn’t need to learn a whole new language such as Farsi to understand the Zafarnama, there are Punjabi translations of it.

You know I don’t want to sound like a right-winger but we should actually attempt to remove Arabic/Persian words from our language, and replace them with Sanskrit. I say this because the nature in which the Perso-Arabic influence entered Punjabi is not a pleasant one. And I say Sanskrit because it was the language of our ancestors, it’s as dear to us as is Punjabi. In fact, Punjabi is the closest apabrahmsha to Ancient Sanskrit, even more so than Hindi. When the Arabs forced Islam and Arabic onto the Persians, they resisted and cleansed their language of all Arabic influence. They even replaced religious terminology such as Allah with Khudah, salah with namaz, ramadan wth ramzan, as to preserve their language and self-respect. We could learn a thing or two from them, of course I’m not saying that we should go back and change Gurbani, that’s a dire no, but we can remove infleunces from our lexicon today.

No Punjabi, no matter what their caste, no matter how they look is ethnically Persian. We do not share a significant genetic overlap with Persians to consider ourselves ethnically similar. They cluster with Caucus/West Asians and we with Central/South Asians. And here is where inferiority shows, why not be proud and accept your own ethnicity. A Punjabi is a Punjabi and just that, why draw similarities to other ethnic groups when such similarities do not exist. 

And just as a side note, the Vedic Aryans (our ancestors) and the Iranic Aryans (Iranians) were not exactly friendly, they were in fact dire enemies that demonized each other. A whole war and exodus was waged, which is described in the Rig Ved.

13 hours ago, Not2Cool2Argue said:

When sikhs/ panjabis had the chance to spread panjabi/ gurmukhi. We did not. We used  arabic script and persian language during maharaja Ranjit Singhs time. I wonder how sikhs felt about that? Having a different language for religion and different for worldly matters? Tho the 10th guru did try to bridge that  gap. Also most hindus or brahmins called persian malesh bhasa and would try not to use it. Are we becoming the same way with nonPunjabi languages? That it isnt worth it to learn them...i think most sikhs should try to learn sanskrit and farsi as that is where punjabis roots are. 

Also persian is pretty contaminated with arabic. They were trying to revive pre-arabic persian. So no language is safe

Well then why not learn Arabic while you're at it as well. I'll argue that Punjabi has more words borrowed from Arabic than Farsi, words like haq, rabb, dunya, sawaal, jawaab, kitaab, quam, insan, mushkil, mubarakan, maut, qanun, ijat, barkat, shukr, mujrim, qursi - these are just a few of the many that I recall.  

What I'm trying to get at it is that just because we have borrowed words from other languages, which is a very commonly seen phenomenon in linguistics and is referred to as loanwords, doesn't mean our language has roots in the language borrowed from. Punjabi and Punjabis have no roots in Farsi or Arabic, so I don't know why some of our own claim that. If anything Punjabi has roots in Sanskrit, but it is an apabrahmsha meaning a corrupted version of Sanskrit - like all present day Indo-Aryan languages.

You're right in saying that when Sikhs had the chance to spread Punjabi/Gurmukhi, we didn't, and that was our biggest mistake. Honestly, we could have been like the Arabs, we could have spread our culture and language to the ends of South Asia, but unfortunately due to poor leaders we failed to do so.

And I reiterate again, learning a new language is a great intellectual pursuit and everyone should take part, but don't suggest that it is imperative that Sikhs learn Farsi or Arabic because we have roots in those languages, that’s simply not true.

8 hours ago, MrDoaba said:

Good point. It would be amazing to see a revival of Farsi in our quam though - some oldies rave about it, and I wish I had the himmat to learn such a complex language.

I think if you want to learn Farsi on your own, that's great because learning another language is always fine and all. But what need do we have of Farsi, what need does it fulfill for our community? The Persians don't feel any affinity towards Punjabis, they aren't learning Punjabi as a community, so why should we be?

I think our quam has more worrisome things to tackle than reviving Farsi. We need to revive Gurmukhi and Punjabi among our community, because most of our youth does not know it.

I don't mean to be offensive, but I disagree with your comment.

As for your DNA results, great that you got them done. I also took a DNA test through 23andme last year and I got similar results, most Punjabis do. Apart from the curiosity of where my ancestors are from, it also warns you of potential genetic diseases, which I thought was beneficial. We need more Punjabis to take these DNA tests as it improves data and puts an impetus on the researchers to focus research on our people.

As for the Persian origin, I was told that it's most likely that both Punjabis and Persians belonged to one Aryan tribe that later on split up into the Iranic people and the Indic people. This claim is supported by the Rig Ved. Our people, the Indic Aryans then mixed with the Dravidians to produce the Indo-Aryans of today, and thats why we still share a genetic link with Persians but do not have similar genes due to mutations and mixing.

I just read news that the Indian film industry is making a film on the Battle of Saragarhi, called Kesari, and was surprised to know that it has a female lead. I hope they don't turn this into a silly love story.

DNA India - Parineeti Chopra to play female lead in Akshay Kumar's Kesari.

3 hours ago, InderjitS said:

Sikhi cannot be tarnished, it is evergreen and never fades.

I meant to say the practice of Sikhi. I'll amend that.

On 10/29/2017 at 7:44 AM, Big_Tera said:

At the moment Sikhism is in its golden period. The next 50 years are crucial for its survival and prosperity. 

It is a make or break time for the faith. If we continue the way we are going Sikhi as we know it will become a insignificant religion on the world stage confined only to Punjabi people and not like a ethically and racially diverse religion like other faiths. Our time is running out. We must act now for the benefit of the next generations who are counting on us for their future. 

But we are on borrowed time. Unless drastic steps are taken to take the faith further and expand all around the world. If this is not done within the next 50 years it is game over. There will not be an opportunity like this again. Many if not all will eventually become athiest or convert to other religions. This is actually happening now but will get increasingly worse. 

The next 50 years is either success or failure as far as numbers go. After 50 years are up. There is no way of turning back the tide. That is why I stress the importance in a crucial period and juncture for the faith. 

We need huge scale missionary activity throughout the world from tibet to mongolia. Dont expect people to one day wake up and look at a basics of sikhi video on youtube then convert on their own will. Yes we can implement digital technology to reach to the masses but that is only one method. We need boots on the ground. Missionary centres on every corner of the earth to spread Guru Nanaks message. 

We must lobby our so called leaders to fund these projects. Money and resources need to be poured in for the effort to begin. Dedication and commitment is needed from us all. Sacrafices will need to be made. It will not be easy but we can achieve the goal with the right methods and knowledge.

Dont think I am just typing this as a passing thought.

I am in the process of setting up one of only in the UK of a Sikh missionary centre. If people are intrested in helping and are from the the east London area. Please contact me on ways you can help and contribute to the project. 

Any thoughts on this crucial period in time that we must act on?

WJKK WJKF

 

Although I agree with the notion that we need to spread our faith. We aren't exactly in a golden period, I'd go as far to say that we're actually in the worst phase.

Although our lives have become easier, the practice of Sikhi has been tarnished. I have met very few Sikhs that practice the Sikhi of Guru Nanak, and even I'm not one of them. Most Sikhs don't exactly know what they're doing. We need reform in Sikhi first of all. It has been littered with practices that have no place in the religion.

You have Sikhs priding on caste. You have Sikhs performing all kind of stupid rituals and superstitions. You have Sikhs indulging in drugs/intoxicants and philandering. You have Sikhs that are following false idols and babas that blind them. You have Sikhs that are working against the panth.

We need reform, before we can go ahead and spread our faith. Because what's the point of building towards the sky, if the very foundation at the bottom is weak.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41780116

Guess a referendum does work after all.

Anyone?