4givme4mysins

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

Sounds great, it gets depressing when you have to wait for a long time before next kirtan darbar. Just a little advice, could the program be organised in a Gurdwara Sahib? I.e. Edward St or Guru Har Rai as they are both in centre of West Bromwich? That way your feel you actually are in the Gurus Darbar? Either way great seva and im sure sangat will attend.

Gurfateh Ji

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

I have always had the understanding that the Anand Karaj should only ever involve Amritdharie couples and this was always puraton maryada, does anyone else have any more information on this?

Gurfateh Ji

But i also believe keeping the sole surname as kaur or singh is the hukam of guru gobind singh which should not be taken lightly

The sole hukam of Guru Gobind Singh Maharaj was that we all take Khande Da Phaul and become tyar bar tyar not just keep Singh and Kaur as names. I think promoting just an adoption of the singh/kaur as a surname will be interpretted by some as an easy option of being a sikh. Just like wearing a kara does not fastrack anyone to Sikhi, the same applies to just keeping Singh or Kaur in your name.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

Bhai Sahib ji i think you misunderstood what i meant, i didnt mean only accepting the title of singh and kaur obviously we should try to follow everything the Guru sahibs have told us, keeping surnames of singh or kaur helps us in so many ways such as hiding the filthy castes associated with them, accepting that we belong to the family of Guru Gobind Singh. The Surnames people keep have not been given to us by the Guru sahibs so why attach ourselves to them?

Gurfateh Ji

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

Bhai sahib good points made, and i agree the foundations of sikhi are important such as seva simran. But i also believe keeping the sole surname as kaur or singh is the hukam of guru gobind singh which should not be taken lightly, for example i use the khalsa greeting whenever i speak to a gursikh or do sikhi vichaar, it doesnt make you a sikh or a good sikh if you use the khalsa greeting but it is good practice.

Gurfateh Ji

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

Bhai sahib jaipal used the word gursikh to describe themselves, a gur sikh translates into "guru da sikh" i.e. guru granth sahib ji is your guru and you are his sikhs, if this is what you believe then accept the hukam that was laid down by guru gobind singh and only accept the title of singh and kaur. You have stated that it is wrong for the gurdwara sevadar to judge you on your names rather than your deeds, changing your title is a deed and an action that shows you follow the way of the sikh gurus i.e. the khalsa panth.

Gurfateh Ji

Ek Onkar Satnam

Guru pyare you dont have to go pesh because you did not commit a sin, it was a honest accident and Guru Maharaj knows this even before you did it? You go pesh when you have committed a cardinal sin i.e. 4 kureyats with prior knowledge.

I was speaking to a very gupt and very old bibi who has done sangat with very great sants and i was told that Amrit can crack your soul i.e. if you keep drinking Amrit just for any old reason i.e. going pesh for this reason or that reason where Amrit is again admistered to the peshi. Amrit is very powerful and the affects of it i dont think many of us understand. This vichaar has been told to me and may be something you may want to investigate for your own please dont take my word for it.

The Amrit we should cleanse ourselves with daily is Amrit Bani, and that is what should wash our sins especially if they were not intentional, pesh is only for very extreame circumstances where you know you did it using manmat. It is your heart felt ardas and sharda and kamaiye that will cleanse you of the sins we commit every day.

gurfateh ji

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

Sangat Ji the more the Khalsa sangat grows in the UK and the more pyare that grows within them for kirtan and sangat the more programs we are all gonna see i.e. alot more clashes. I have seen that more and more organisations are booking their program/event dates in advance for the entire year which some people may find unfair but we all need to respect each other and if some one would like to organise a program or event they shouldnt be made to feel intimidated or like they have the a big wrong.

Forgive me if i have upset anyone just my 2 pennys worth.

Gurfateh Ji

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

http://www.gurdwara.orchardhostings3.co.uk/ related information.

Gurfateh Ji

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

I like the sound of this, great seva

Gurfateh Ji

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

The understanding that has been passed to me is that a Kirpan should be in the form as your see traditionally i.e. a outer cutting edge which is curved to the tip. I was told that the kirpan should be sarbloh as it performs spritually duties aswell as for defense. The shape of the kirpan is part of how it does the kirpa for example a pesh kab which is a great shastar cannot do the same kirpa as a kirpaan.

Like i said this the understanding i have you dont need to accept it.

Gurfateh Ji

Waheguru...what a great saint

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

Sangat Ji there an Amrit Sanchar been organised with Guru Ji's kirpa

at

22nd December 2007 - 1pm

Gurdwara Amrit Parchar Dharmik Diwan

65 Birmingham Road

Oldbury, Warley

West Midlands

UK

Gurfateh Ji

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

We should respect western traditions such as christmas but we should not celebrate them for obvious reasons. A Gurmat Camp has been organised at Oldbury Gurdwara, Birmingham on christmas day to bring our people out of this christmas culture and into our gurdwara sahibs to celebrate events such as the sacrifices made by the sahibzade. There are many other camps going on around the UK which we should try to attend.

Gurfateh Ji

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

Should be a great camp

Gurfateh Ji

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

Sounds like a great camp, the kids and sangat should take away alot. You have a great line up of activities is there costs involved for the sangat? as the poster doesnt state anything.

Gurfateh Ji

Nice to see Gurbar Akaal on here. He can state way better than me the difference between shastar vidiya and gatka. 4giveme4mysins please read the topic i posted previously. I never said gatka was or is less effective because of the use of guns. I'm saying gatka is not shastar vidiya because of the experience I have had studing other martial arts. It can't be in my opinion the sikh martial art. I have never learned how to use my kirpan effectively in class. Just how to spin swords and do pattern type fighting and basic fencing which I enjoy. Heres some quotes from the other thread.

"Please don't use the words shastar vidiya and Gatka interchangably. They are two totally different things. Shastar vidiya refers to the ancient and pretty much lost martial art of Gursikhs. And Gatka refers to a show put on to impress ppl. Trust me I'm Not a U.K NIHUNG. And I have nothing against Gatka as long as its not misrespresented as a true fighting system. Which everyone seems to do now adays. I do gatka cause its fun and good excercise. But I can't stand it when ppl try to make it out to be the "martial art" of the gursikhs. If anyone has taken even a cheesy mcdojo (comericialized martial art) class they can see it is more effective and detailed then gatka. If anyones ever dedicated their life to a true and deadly martial arts then they can see that "Gatka" is way far behind. True martial arts of the sikhs is shastar vidiya. And i haven't learnt it but i can tell u from doing other martial arts Gatka is not it. I feel sorry for people who practice it thinking it will help them in a dangerous situation. Because a novice ninjitsu practioner would probably take out a vetran gatka "ustaad". Like i said i'm not putting it down. I just firmly believe gatka is not the martial arts of the sikhs and should not be marketed as such. Play it preform it for the oohs and ahhs of the crowd. Just don't let it get to your head that your learning the true form of shastar vidiya. Which in my mind is probably the purest and most deadilest martials art known to man. And trust me after a lot of research Gatka is not that. Sorry if i offended anyone. I just don't want gatka practioners to get a big head and be in a life or death situation and be filled with confidence in an art that may let them down in real combat. Once again not a u.k nihung. Just a singh who is observant. "

"The difference between both. Gatka teaches you how to swing a sword around really fancy so you look super deadly. and do patterns with kartars and shields. Also teaches u how to fence on a point system, which is my favourite part. Which is kool. However Gatka only has one penthra mool panthra. penthra means footwork. And footwork is not stressed to much in gatka. Any martial art always stresses footwork above every and anythign else. You need to have the roots strong before the tree can be strong. I've seen teachers teach penthra for a day and let kids grab sotis. Because there is nothing else to teach in gatka (footwork wise). However any marital artist will tell you, u have to train at least a few years before you can even touch a weapon. In gatka you can get a weapon the second or third day. And the weapons aren't realistic. You have swords which are flimsy and really dull. Where as in a real martial art you learn with a wooden version of the weapon first and gradually over time maybe years get to use the real version. Gatka you go straight to the flimsy sword and never move up. Also kill spots and how to actually use a sword are never taught. Pressure points breaking bones, different types of weapons and what each weapon can do and what its strengths and weaknesses are are not taught. "

Below is Gurbar Akaals post

"Moving back to the topic in hand, i will try to explain how jahir gatka differs from khalsa jang vidiya.

The weapons used in Gatka are all the same length, and they are way too long. The length prescribed by Guru Gobind Singh for a salotar is sava hath, not 3ft.

There is no variation amongst the weapons used in gatka, only a standard curved tulwar of the same length and weight balance. Whereas shastarvidiya teaches the use of the huge library of indo persian weapons, from tegha, tulwar, kaati, kathi, saif, khanda, kharag, dhal, sipar, bichuwa, pesh kabz, katar, jamdhari katar, bagh nakha, nar nakha, barsha, teer mukhiya, chakar etc (list goes on)

Weapons such as the chakri were never used by the Khalsa, Gatkabaaj's adopted them from travelling bazigar from kerela.

Vaars used in Gatka are "Ek angi", whereas shastarvidiya encorporates Sarb Ang

Vaars shown in Gatka are always overstretched, over committed and over transmitted.

Penthra used within Gatka is always used in the wrong space, way too far from the opponent to even be useful.

The "penthra" shown in Gatka is obvious, it is easily read, its repeated, and there is no subtlety to it to deceive the opponent

The penthra in Gatka is too heavy footed, and all gatka baajs i have seen are flat footed with moving, they do not use all parts of the soles

There is no subtle baiting or technical countering in Gatka

There is no implementation of 16 fighting concepts such as smehtna, smethna, dabauna, dabna, ang jakarna, ang kichna etc

There is no variation of the footwork, or widths of footwork used in gatka.

The spinning of the soti serves no purpose as the cutting edge faces away from its opponent.

There are no banned moves on the battlefield, so why do gatkabaaj's bann certain strikes? surely it would be better to enforce discipline amongst students to respect the safety of others.

The unarmed combat taught in gatka is copied from western arts poorly, Guru Gobind Singh did not do kickboxing or karate on the battlefield.

There is no application of manipulating the gatti of the opponent, probably the biggest difference between gatka and shastarvidiya.

Above is just a small list of differences. "

Above post gives a good idea about the differences. As for nihungs singhs knowing the real martial art. Well when I went to India I asked a local nihung singh to take me to a place where I could learn shastar vidiya. And when I went it was just gatka not shastar vidiya. I asked one of the instructers what should one do in a real situation where I lose my kirpan yet the other person has a knife and he replied " Just grab him and hold him tight and theres nothing much else u can do." Umm yeah.. so anyways my two cents.

And for the person who said lets stay on topic. Well the topic was gatka classes and my post is on authenticity of gatka. So I think I am kinda on topic. Lets keep discussing. Thanks god bless.

Oh and I implore the sangat to please do learn a martial art any kind that is effective on the streets its our duty.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

Good explaination Quest4Akaal, just to correct few things i have seen about 2 - 3 penthra styles in gatka alone and the hand to hand combat i.e. for example using a sri sahib taught by gatka ustads ive seen, looks very similiar to footage of the a shastar vidiya style. I am personally taught how to use each vaar and the benefit of the attack of defence, to tell if it would work, i would need to be involved in a fight which i hope guru ji will dismiss me on. Watching the fight between Ustad Uptej Singh and Nihang Nidar Singh which is the only footage i have seen of a match of the two styles i think both were just as great styles.

I truely believe that its not the style of fighting that can tell the winner of a fight or battle but its the kamaiye behind them, thats if you believe its maha akaal who weilds the sword not you.

Gurfateh Ji

Ek Onkar Satnam

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

I have never met anyone who has recited gurbani from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji without making some sort of mistake, even singhs who have learnt from Taksal i have heard as recent as a few weeks back making a mistake while reciting gurbani. The point im trying to make is as a human being you can only try and do ardas and ask the all mighty for his blessings before and after reciting gurbani even if you are reciting from a gutka sahib. Humans make errors we can only ask for forgiveness. I would not stop attempting to read from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji but i would recommend practicing using other methods, because by reading gurbani is the only way we can get to know our Guru Sahib.

I probably said loads of things wrong but i only want to encourage you.

Gurfateh Ji

Budha Dal Singhs in India have no idea of what traditional shastarvidiya is, due to the art being partially known to a handful of Babeh the art has more or less dissapeared from the Nihang Singhs. They can only relate to what they have seen, and that is Gatka.

Gunpowder and guns were used by Guru Gobind Singh, so to say that their emergence resulted in the decline of close quarter engagement is ridiculous. Yes guns were used by Singhs to a great effect, even praised by the British at how good they were with them, but when each musket takes roughly a minute to clean, load with gunpowder, pellet, light and fire it wasnt the best choice when a skirmish attack happens. Therefore they would still train highly in normal warfare.

Ek Onkar Satnam

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

I am no arguing the fact gunpowder weapons werent used by singhs from the past and our Guru sahib ji, i am stating that evolution did take a part in what we see today. Regarding the effectivness of gatka i can only speak from expearence, so ill only say what i know myself. If what you state about the shastar vidya you know is true and that the art has dissapeared even within the nihang sahibs in india then that is a very sad thing, especially with the jeevan they keep you would expect nothing but the best.

Gurfateh Ji

I don't think people should charge for gatka classes because I believe its not the real art of our puratan brothers. I truly believe this having studied about other martial arts. I don't think gatka is street effective at all. So please whoever is charging for classes please stop unless of course you are teaching basic self defense which is not a part of any gatka classes I've ever taken. Don't get me wrong I like gatka i practice it myself just don't think it is the sikh martial art.

For more info check this thread out.

http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?showto...p;hl=quest4akal

keep scrolling down for a great discussion on gatka. Thanks

Ek Onkar Satnam

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

I respect your opinions and agree that gatka or shastar vidya has changed since the use of it on the battle field, my understanding is that it started to change when gunpowder weaponary became more common so the use of hand combat shastars had to also evolve. It is a great misunderstanding that gatka cannot be useful on todays dangerious street environments, as an amritdharie sikh i believe it is a must for all amritdharies to learn how to use their sri sahibs for defence even if they do not go deeper into the martial arts, just knowing how to use your sri sahib can help keep you safe on todays streets and it doesnt mean who even have to draw it!. It is also a great misunderstanding that people believe yoga was not practiced by our PURATAN brothers and sisters, gatka is practiced by the entire guru panth khalsa and is referenced and promoted on the nihang sahib web sites such as http://www.budhadal.com which i believe is also promoting this tradition.

Anyways khalsa ji stay in chardi kalaa and keep practicing some sort of martial tradition to keep our sipiyee flame alive.

Gurfateh Ji

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

There is also an Amrit sanchar organised for

12noon - 22 December 2007

at

Gurdwara Amrit Parchar Dharmik Diwan

65 Birmingham Road

Oldbury, Warley

West Midlands

UK

Which ever Amrit Sanchar you can make it for, go to it and declare you have a Guru

Gurfateh Ji

Sahibzada Baba Ajit Singh Ji Gatka Akhara is not affiliated to any Gurdwara or Jathebandi. The only money they take is for upkeep of the hall, as it receives no other funding from anyone else. As mentioned before Southall is quite a small town, and to open another Akhara withing same town would be a bit much. Sahibzada Baba Ajit Singh Gatka Akhara has been running since 1990 and is second oldest Akhara in the country behind Sahibzada Baba Fateh Singh Ji Gatka Akhara.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

Bhai sahib ji please dont take my words offensively, but i have been taught that to take any money after teaching the Guru's vidiya is a bad thing to do especially if we have the means to work and use our own dasvandh to support the cause we love so much. Yes it will be much harder but the seva will taste much more sweeter. There have been times where even teaching gatka in a park would do if a hall could not be arranged.

Gurfateh Ji

Like verji has put it if you both have the same motive why not work together and share the knowledge of the vidiya, from what I see the southall akhara has got much smallier so this would be a great uplift.

orono we should not look at the past and look forward now the akhara should welcome others

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

I would love to see the day when all akharas especially in the UK get together and celebrate Khalsa Martial Spirit, the only event close to that would be Yudh Gatka Tournament which i really hope all Khalsa warriors from all akharas try to enter in 2008.

Gurfateh Ji

Ek Onkar Satnam

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

The closest place to Southall that the Khalsa Panth Akhara teaches is Hitchin, the Khalsa Panth Akhara is getting many requests to start Gatka Akharas around the UK and specifically Southall so please keep an eye on www.khalsapanth.co.uk.

Manchester and Hitchin Akhara are setup and running regular classes.

Gurfateh Ji

Vaheguru jee kaa khalsa Vaheguru jee kee fateh

Sangath jee its great to see so many akharea and i hope this has help the person who orginally started this post but why not get together and help each other, like surely having one akhara in southall then another one in the same area is much because martial arts can be learnt and tought by one another.

Just yesterday I was speaking to a singh in manchester who had just got back from gatka class that had been started up by khalsa panth akhara which is really good to see.

Just a small request i thought id make if i have offended anyone i am really sorry.

Vaheguru jee kaa khalsa Vaheguru jee kee fateh

Very good point made by verji, but verji i think people just want to only help there own banner of akhara name which is a shame to see.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

Another good point and i agree, just to make a quick point the Khalsa Panth Akhara has only setup Akharas due to sangat demand or other issues such as people charging fees to teach Gatka. Khalsa Panth Akhara does not receive or accept funding from Gurdwara, groups, jathas or government, and is totally self funded by Ustads and sevadars, so the motive of seting up akharas is only for prachar and seva.

Gurfateh Ji

Ek Onkar Satnam

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

The pictures are not idols and defo not idol worshipping, it is just an aid used to remember events in our history, even though SGGS does state

hir ky sMq imlhu mnu dyvw jo gurbwxI muiK caudw jIau ]2]

har kae sa(n)th milahu man dhaevaa jo gurabaanee mukh choudhaa jeeo ||2||

I dedicate my mind to those Saints of the Lord, who chant the Word of the Guru's Bani with their mouths. ||2||

it is not a bad thing to remember great saints and what they stood for. We remember our shaheeds in our ardas, to remember great gursikhs and saints using pictures isnt wrong. I do agree that SGGS ji should be the center of all our attention, but remember Waheguru Ji is everywhere, all the time and in many different forms!!!!

Gurfateh Ji