MAX

Looks like it's still digesting its last meal.

Damn, it's at times like this that I'm glad I live in England...

Magnificent creature, though.

This is the first incident of its kind I've heard of and it is obviously very distressing news. Though I don't think that Sikkhs will garner respect by simply responding with violence. That's what the BJP and RSS-types are waiting for so they can swoop in and make a total fascist clamp-down.

Don't give them that chance.

Does the Guru Granth Sahib Ji contain writings of females since ive realised that many of the other world religions dont and i never heard of any Sikh one too??

Why is that???

Not really sure. It may have had something to do with the authoritative role - or lack thereof - that women posessed in society at the time. It's no real biggie if you think about. It's tough to lead a sangat of any kind if their leader is not fully respected by its followers due to socio-cultural prejudices that may exist within that sangat. If anything, it was smart to not have women be in overly authoritative positions at the time due to how many people (by "people", I mean "men" ) may have felt threatened by or not respected a female leader or Guru.

But Guru Nanak's sister is held up in reverence in terms of her faith in her brother's wisdom when even his father had branded him rebellious and financially useless. And Mai Bhagö's incredible act of chivalry will be remembered as the ultimate cultural turning point in all of sub-continental, and perhaps even world history, as the day women took up their husbands' martial clothes and went to battle alongside Guru Gobind Singh Ji.

In a time when widows were burned on the flames of their husbands' funeral pyres and were considered little more than the property of men - like farm animals or...a table - Guru Nanak raised his hand in defiance and completely reversed the image that women had within that society.

Men have always been fearful of women. Their intellect, their charm, their general capacity. And so, through the rungs of patricarchal society, men have quashed and stifled these amazing and brilliant and beautiful women due to their own insecureties and fear of inferiority or subordination. Whilst there may be no female writings in the Granth Sahib - as this would probably be a step too far in those days - their honour is given its due. I am sure that, had society been more accepting of women's leadership, Guru Nanak would have appointed a woman to be his successor.

Why do people think that we were sexist because of things like this??

I don't see where this point was ever raised. The question of 'why are there no writings by women?' was raised in a respectful manner.

Maybe women (not trying to diss them) should have written more!

In a patricarchal, oppressive society where women were worth the same as the phatti you sit on, there is little such opportunity, unfortunately. Guru Nanak helped to change that.

Or with the Panj Pyaare, maybe they should've volunteered to be one! I don't see how you can argue that our Gurus were sexist when it was kind of the womens' choices, not the Gurus. Just always thought that was weird...

Society has a way of imposing its stereotypes on the psyche of the oppressed as well as the oppressors. Women perhaps felt as though this "wasn't their place" or perhaps "did not want to show up their husbands/other men who weren't brave enough to volunteer".

You must remember that the world of the Gurus was completely different from what it is today. One should take this into account whenever viewing any of the events from Sikkhi's past.

Alerted by email by Prabhujeet singh

Sikh pilgrims enter Pakistan city

Indian Sikh pilgrims surround a van carrying a palanquin with their holy book as they enter Pakistan near Lahore Pakistan is willing to allow as many as 5000 Sikhs to enter Lahore

Nearly 200 Sikhs have already arrived in Pakistan to take part in ceremonies to mark the killing of Guru Arjun Dev.

Last year, nearly 2,000 Sikhs crossed over on a pilgrimage to the birthplace of Guru Nanak, the founder of Sikhism.

It was the first time since partition in 1947 that such a procession of Sikhs was granted entry by Pakistan.

Sikhs regard Guru Arjun Dev as one of the holiest martyrs of their faith.

His killing during the rule of Mughal king Jehangir in the early 17th Century triggered a protracted conflict between the Mughal dynasty and the Sikh community.

A BBC correspondent in Lahore says this is the first time the Pakistani government is allowing large-scale movement of Sikhs from India to pay tribute to a saint whose role in history has served as a dividing line between the Sikh and Muslim communities across the subcontinent.

Prime Minister Shaukat Aziz had given instructions to issue visas to as many as 5,000 visitors from India for the anniversary celebrations, according to Pakistani organisers.

I'm sorry, I was wondering what exactly it was that was so offensive about that?

In terms of a political reality, Guru Arjan Dev's incredible sacrifice was indeed a major factor in the "protracted conflict between the Mughal dynasty and the Sikkh community" that followed. I don't see how this is offensive. Perhaps someone would care to explain it to me.

OMG STOP TALKING ABT MANMAT PROGRAMS!

GO WATCH YOGA ON ASTHA TV! lol

I just had a funny image flash into my mind. I'd like to share it if I may.

When you accused something non-Sikkh (or what you perceive to be as non-Sikkh) as being "manmat", I just had the image of a Muslim shouting "käfir". Dunno, just sorta popped in there

At times like this, no-one is right and no-one is wrong.

Both are asserting their views with violent undertones, and both need to reconsider what they are saying and how they are saying it.

They say it sometimes takes a crisis to bring families/communities together, and if there is one thing that Sikkh history is no stranger to, it's crisis.

If being called RUDE for following the true path than its better to be called rude. Similar thing happned during my wedding reception. I was big No for alcohol and meat. My uncle said he'll pay for both. I said money is not a concern, by beliefs are. HE was like, what will all relatives say, and whats the fun of party without it. So he said then dont invite them. I said fine. I only invited my friends, who know what i believe in and respect that. At the last moment my parents invited other relatives to party and they did came. Noone told me on my face that they didnt liked the fact that alcohol was not served. We had a great reception and Iam happy i was able to hold on my ground with guruji's grace.

Harjit veerji, dont feel bad if ur relatives term you rude. ALways remember that relatives are ppl you were born with, Friends are someone you pick. So i always give prefrence to my friends over relatives. If they have problem with my faith, then so be it. I'm not here to appease them, while going against my guruji. So look for the company of guru's sangat and forget about relatives.

Fateh!

Well, I'm vehemently against the consumption of alcohol, but I also understand that personal beliefs and social occasions are two very different things. I'm not there to convince people of my opinion; I'm there to make sure that everyone is having a good time. It's a party, for Pete's sake, not a philosophy lessson!

If I could come to a no-alcohol arrangement that was amicable for all, I'd be very much in support of it. Else, who cares? It's not like I'm gonna start drinking just because other people aer

I hope Guru ji punishes this foolish person severely...

Why do you harbour so much hate? One cannot harbour hatred and the name of the One Lord in their heart at the same time. You must choose between the two.

"""""The foolish learn from experience.

The wise learn from the experience of others."""""

This made zero sence.

Then allow me to translate:

If you're smart, you'll look at what other people are doing and learn from their successes and their follies.

If you ain't so smart, you'll go through that torturous experience when you could have just stood back to examine it and learned from it.

Any body is self proclaimed so we all are worms but Im not going to be Pritam Worm whatever max thinks he can say..

Im just glad I will miss out on living on Earth for eternity

Yes, you're 'saved' and I'm 'condemned' because you go through a certain set of rituals/motions and I don't.

The form (sargun) and the formless (nirgun) are merely facets of human perception.

We can either perceive something, or we can not.

The One Lord pervades all things, both those that are within our neurosensory range, and those that aren't.

Names, labels, religions, etc...these are all things that are man-made. Created by us in an attempt to concretise the abstract, to give form to the formless (i.e. to make nitgun into sargun) so as to make it easier for our minds to grasp certain concepts. It doesn't make the sargun 'true'. It simply makes it into a representation.

The problem, of course, is when the representation begins to take primacy over what it represents, and this continues until the original concept has disappeared, and only the empty shell remains.

No institution is above this, because every insitution is man-made.

VJKK VJKF!

OMG MAX U SMASH IT MAN! WITH THIS COMMENT : -

Heh...I stick around for a bit just to see the tamasha and then I get on my way. It's not like anyone will notice you leaving...

VJKK VJKF!

A-thank you very much

Youll never get to be Adhari because youll need to expierence it yourself and thus you say youll be a fool to expierence being a Khalsa.

The things I've heard from the mouths and minds of some self-proclaimed 'Khalsa' is enough of a confirmation that I'm not missing out on much.

A fool lets people do everything for them, and when they arent there the fool doent know anything

That...actually made no sense to me. But whatever, dude - as long as you're happy :TH:

I don't drink, my wife drinks on average once every 3 weeks. She doesn't get drunk, she knows her limits, she has at maximum 2 glasses of wine with a meal. It's p!ssed me off that she goes out with workmates now and then and drinks, because there are men there, some of them turbaned Singhs, who are also drinking, it's not a good thing. If I say anything to her, she says "They're just work colleagues", yet her sister was harrassed by a p@ki at her work, wasn't he just a colleague too? She also brings up the fact that I used to drink with girls at Uni, but this was years ago, I learnt better, and she wasn't with me then. She also had something really bad happen to her when she used to get really drunk, I posted about that here before. She says she has learnt from that not to get drunk, but why drink anyway?, and why hang around men who are drinking? (without me being there?). It got to the point where she said I should have married a 'freshie'. I don't want to treat her like a child, but how can I make her see she is wrong? (she says she's not wrong) and keep her out of danger?, I can't remind her of the bad thing that happened because she'll think I always use that to score points. I haven't told her to stop drinking, I just asked her to not drink when she goes out for meals with her work colleagues. When I'm firm, I just get accused of being 'controlling' and 'old skool'.

Mm...you say that her sister was harassed? But that doesn't mean that she will be harassed. And if she is, I'm sure she'll be able to stand her ground and let you know if such a situation were ever to arise.

She sounds responsible and trustworthy enough from what you've said. I don't think you have anything to worry about, but that last part is up to you I guess.

Good luck :TH:

Randip Singh Ji are you amritdhari ?

If not then what gives you the right to harp on from the side lines as to what the panj piyaray wear or not.

If you yourself are not part of the Khalsa then what right have you got to critisize?

First walk the walk.......................... and then talk

"The foolish learn from experience.

The wise learn from the experience of others."

1. Guru tells us that it is not our buisness to tell others how to live their lives. We can try to convince them, but in the end its their problem.

Not "problem" but "decision". No one has a monopoly on the right.

2. If others eat meat or whatever around me, I don't mind, because I'm keeping my rehat. True, your family should be more sensitive to you than they are, but its not life and death.

Think 'lotus flower'. Be happy that you are who and what you are, neither wasting time on affecting others, nor allowing others to affect you.

3. Alcohol is a problem. I try to avoid when other people drink. If anyone is drunk, I leave. Simple.

Heh...I stick around for a bit just to see the tamasha and then I get on my way. It's not like anyone will notice you leaving...

the BBC asian network is more like the BBC Muslim network

Haha...yeah, man... In the U.K., the line between 'Muslim' and 'Asian' barely exists as far as Caucasians go :TH:

People speak.

Unfortunately, most of the time, they speak nonsense.

Ignore and move on.

WHo on earth said Guru Nanak Dev Ji was a devil???

I have a feeling that comment may have been taken out of context. No-one is stupid enough to say anything like that about a religion. I'd like to read the full transcript.

Was it someone who rang on sonia deol???

2 yrs ago i remember some stupid ex sikh girl on Sonia deol saying Sikhism is from Islam @ - why are there sooooo many stupid people on this earth??

Chill, man. Just because one person says it, it doesn't make it the truth.

After the BBC Asian Network was forced to apologise for allowing on air very offensive remarks to be made about the founder of the Sikh faith, it now looks like they have offended the Sikh community again. The apologies came from Head of the Asian Network, in a press release, and when the Director of BBC Radio met a group of leaders of the Sikh community and personally apologised for the offence caused when a guest panellist crudely announced that Guru Nanak Dev Ji was a Devil or "shitaan" in Punjabi.

http://www.sikhsangat.org/publish/article_1111.shtml

Does it ever end!!

Yes, the world is about to finish, the skies are falling, and the demons are rising from the bowels of the Earth...oh, hang on...no it's not.

It's amazing how visciously people will hang on to the odd casual comment. It happens. Grow a backbone, Singh. Show 'em why you're called a 'lion'

WAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA WAHEGURU JI KI FATEH

I was just searching the Siri Guru Granth Sahib ji to try and find an answer to one of the earlier posts but i came across this:

saalagiraam hamaarai saevaa ||

Such is the Saalagraam, the stone idol, which I serve;

poojaa arachaa ba(n)dhan dhaevaa ||1|| rehaao ||

such is my worship, flower-offerings and divine adoration as well. ||1||Pause

Is this saying Guru Arjan Dev ji worshipped idols? However i noticed there is no mention of idol in the original version but it only says saalagiraam... so is that an idol? And is that saying we are allowed to idol worship?

Here is the full shabad just incase i took it out of context:

http://www.sikhitothemax.com/page.asp?ShabadID=1525

Can someone please help.

WAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA WAHEGURU JI KI FATEH

The full passage reads:

This simply means that submission to God replaces "the stone idol...worship, flower offerings and divine adoration".

It's actually saying the exact opposite of what you thought it was saying.

Of course, some 'Sikkhs' believe that understanding the words of the Granth in their purity instead of through third-hand misconstruations is the action of an 'evil Manmukh'. Oh well.

I was told that all 5 rivers of the greater Punjab go through Pakistan's Punjab but not all of them go through India' Punjab and that Pakistan's Punjab is over 3 times bigger than India's Punjab, if so then why is this??? why was soo much of the Sikh homeland given away???

Do not spend so much time on invisible borders. Instead work to ensure that your own borders of self-discipline and morals are strong and very much visible.

Any sikkh of Guru Nanak would consider the world entire to be their "homeland", the company of humanity to be their sangat, and the Will of God to be their bed.

:nihungsmile: Ever wondered why our younger generation are going down the road of crime....? maybe its because they cant find the right connection between our religion and them... Maybe if we had more sikh classes, events on an EVERYDAY basis in gurdwaras then maybe they would find other kids to connect with. It is easy to be led astray when your young. Kids have alot of energy but if not put on the right path they will follow any path even the path of KAAM, KRODH, LOBH, MOH AND HUNKAAR.

Basically you need more youth in gurdwaras, to invite the youth on drugs, drink and crime so they can find guidance from people they can connect with. not old people who tell them wat to do so they rebel....

Does anyone know wat i mean?

please reply

wjkkwjkf

http://www.singh.mlinternational.com

Kids from every community get up to this stuff.

And there is more than one way to move a mountain.

yup...

its the influence of the western world

"The influence of the Western world" is what has given us democracy, secularism, freedom of speech and human rights bodies that stretch the globe. It's not good to just isolate one community/reason for why certain events happen. This statement implies that all Westerners live like donkeys, whereas the truth of the matter is that most of the nicest, most pleasant and people from respectable families I have met are my Western friends (whilst most of the complete prats in my life are coincidentally Sikkh...go figure).

Yes, there is the third class way of doing things, but this exists all over the world and is not confined to just the West.

If it's a failing, it's a human failing, and not a cultural failing.

It's moral. Not religious.

Yes. It is written, in Chapter 15, Verse 6, that "he who does not eat from the plate of Iron will sit on a hot plae of Iron for all eternity in order to balance the universe".

Jesus Christ...

the i guess we should... what about eating out and events??

Oh, my dear LionChild...that was my lame attempt at sarcastic humour

If such a scripture truly existed, I think we'd all better re-evaluate the meaning of religion right now

so what.. if we eat in paper plates, are we somehow anti-gurmat?

Yes. It is written, in Chapter 15, Verse 6, that "he who does not eat from the plate of Iron will sit on a hot plae of Iron for all eternity in order to balance the universe".

Jesus Christ...

There are no truths. Only stories.

At my school the bell was programed in a computer and no one pushed a button. I never thought other schools had a button.

When I was a kid, we had one of those old fashioned bells. Although...what type of bell it is has nothing to do with anything.

Japmans is only being a smart mouth then I see.

I didnt know how a forum worked?

Why didnt someone close it then?

Or go onto the topic rather than saying there .000000001 of a cent rather than 2

Wow. That sounded like a personal insult.

Lead by example, man