MAX

Ek Onkar.

All is One. One is All.

We are all One with God, whether we realise it or not.

That's deep

I personally think that it is beautifully simple, but hey, whatever floats yer boat :TH:

Thanks for the sincerity in your reply bro. Respect to you for making the forum a kinder place.

Many thanks for your kind words :TH:

I am not sure I agree with your remix version. I do understand it on a certain level. But taken to it’s end, would suggest that we should not have a forum called sikhsangat in which you participate.

A name is just a name. A consequence of the human incapacity to refer to abstract things with success. It's a mode of reference. Little else.

Guru Nanak Dev Ji did not suggest that we abolish religion. He suggested that we abolish false religion and embrace waheguru’s humanity. This was not to be done simply by us meaning well, but rather being activists. Guru Nanak Dev Ji started the path to the kirpan by challenging society head on. This approach to life was given a blueprint via the khalsa. Guru Gobind Singh Ji’s life and teachings are the ultimate in love and peace.

Mm...when you say that Guru Nanak "suggested that we abolish false religion", are you implying that Guru-ji said that one should embrace a true religion? If so, is there a passage from Gurbani that supports this (in literal terms, of course).

You say

“and yet I refuse to do so. My beard is bigger than it's been for a while, and I refuse to trim it. As long as I can reveal the truth of peoples' ignorance and prejudice using this form of those who decide to speak to me, I am going to use this form to do it.”But you don’t refuse to cut your hair?? and insist on a dastar?

But why should I? Am I less of a man if I do/don't?

You remix is:

"Na koi Hindu, na koi Musalman...na koi Sikkh."

Well surely then “na koi sikhsangat” and “na koi Max identifying himself as sikh” and “na koi need for communication” etc.

As I stated above, it is required for "communication". But beyond that particular simulacrum, it means little else.

Should we abolish womens rights groups?, black rights groups? Cultural celebrations? Etc. etc. This is not what Guru Nanak Dev Ji meant otherwise Sikhs would be ascetics meditating in caves to truly denounce worldly definitions.

I think you're taking things a little extreme. When I said "na koi Sikkh", what I meant was that a true Sikkh doesn't think of himself as a 'Sikkh', but as a 'sikkh". I hope you understand my meaning.

“Na Koi” is a message to lead a life to embrace waheguru’s humanity of all faiths and backgrounds. We call this Sikhi. Our bodies are not a formless god incarnate. Rather they are the creation of waheguroo and if we are alive, we do not float in godspace, we make choices in how we conduct our lives and our bodies. They can be dictated by the masses and media or by something so beautiful as the ways of the Khalsa.

Indeed. Conduct of one's life is the highest order.

Truth is above all.

Truthful living is higher still.

But whether or not you define that living by Bana or not is not what is important in my eyes. What is important to me is the virtue in peoples' actions.

Now all I need is people like you to make me walk my talk.

Heh...always glad to inspire

"The Khalsa meditates on the Ever-radiant Light, day and night, and rejects all else but the one Lord from the mind. He decorates himself with perfect love and faith, and believes not in fasts, tombs, crematoriums and hermit cells, even by mistake." - Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj

First off, i have no problem with any place of worship, and yes MAX, it takes a person who is truly firm in their belief to visit a place of worship other than their own, (and thats probably why i havent, except for visiting a Bahai temple) I find no problem with a Sikh visiting a Mandir, Masjid, Church and so on, but i dont understand why a Sikh would take part in their services, prayers or rituals when he or she has taken a solemn oath not to perform the practices of any other religion, that is all im saying.

I know of a few Brahmins who visit our gurdwara every now and then, they listen to the kirtan and katha, but never bow in front of Guru Sahib. That is what i respect, not someone who bows in front of teachings that are completely different than theirs.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa

Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

"Not even by mistake" refers to the people who choose to whollop in a nice dose of deity pooja after their Ardas as has been known in some Gurudwaras. This is where the "solemn oath", as you called it, is tastelessly and ignorantly broken.

When one consciously understands what his/her actions do and do not mean when enterting the place of worship of an existing place, this is not a "mistake", but a sign of respect whilst never forgetting one's own beliefs. What is it to ring a bell? As long as I do not believe that this is a way to actually communicate with God (its very conceipt seems absurd to me), what evil am I comitting? I am ringing a bell. A bell. Ding-dong. I used to ask my teacher if I could ring the bell in the school yard at the end of recess. Big deal.

P.S. - For a Brahmin not to bow with respect in front of the Granth (you know, the text that single-handedly saved their entire faith from being wiped from existence), is a huge lack of appreciation on their part. Just thought I'd say that.

so a christian/hindu/muslim isnt a student of god?? sikh = student/disiple

i try to get involved in the community, regardless of what religion people have...

The time i usually spend with my grandma is when i'm working for her, i went over to her church during that time to hlp her out. That was a shortsighted comment pritam.

And no, i wear my dastaar to work and also when i go out to eat, shop, play, and walk - i'm not ashamed to wear my kakars.

As for the gurudwara, maybe you shoudl come up to vernon bc and see this place for yourself... no sikhitothemax english subtitles, no books/services for the youth, and not even any one around usually for any new people to see.

Fly, baby. Fly :TH:

i think the point is that....your beliefs shape reality...reality doesn't shape your beliefs.... so that's why everyone doesn't believe the same thing and have the same ways, because "beliefs" aren't dependant on "reality".

There is wisdom in your words. What you have said here is something that I would hope everyone - regardless of their existing socio-political/religious views - will read and medidate on with an open and free mind.

AND: let's not be TOOO distorted...although Hindus do believe in multimillion numbers of gods...they ALSO believe that it all leads back to ONE god... don't ask me how or why that owrks, i'm jus tellin you what i've bene told from multiple hindu friends.

Guru Gobind Singh talks of the entities of Indian history (legendary kings, warriors, princesses, etc) who fell in love with themselves and forgot God. As such, they spent their lives in a state of spiritual suffering. They were not 'gods', although they believed themselves to be so. Guru Gobind Singh Ji himself said that he was not a 'god', nor was he to be worshipped as such. He was a tool of God, made a public display of humility when taking Amrit from the Five Beloved, and ensured that "Waheguru-ji ka Khalsa, Waheguru-ji ki fateh" ("both the Khalsa and the victory belong only to Waheguru") remained on the lips of the people he had left behind.

When their stories are retold in Hindu mythology, the metaphorical morals of their journeys are sometimes lost, but the underlying truth - as with all religions - remains unchanged...even if you have to sift through some of the garbage that has accumulated over centuries in order to see it.

Guru Gobind Singh Ji translated a number of Hindu scriptures, including the Upanishads. There is much wisdom to be learned in those pages. But - as with any kind of wisdom - it should all be taken with a pinch of salt and a questioning mind.

we preach tolerance, maybe because we expect to recieve and give it. Agree or Disagree?

But not everyone does preach tolerance. Many are happy believing that their 'right' is the only 'right' and believe that all others ought to convert or perish. A typical kafir mentality, entirely laughable, and wholly un-Sikkh.

A Sikh is a Sikh is a Sikh. Nothing else.

A Sikkh is a human being.

Nothing else.

All the energy you spend a grandma you should spend at the Gurdwara then maybe 5% of the time you spend at the Gurdwara you could spend at anothers

Dude, she's helping her Grandma. Where is the evil in that?

The hindu pundit thing I completely agree with. I would have more respect to a pundit who didnt bow to teachings he didnt follow. So why would I go to a church "mass" whatever you want to call the gathering and take part of something I dont believe at all.---Do you wear your turban while doing this?--- Or do you remove it to please your grandma and feel like people of the congregation would look at you dumb?

Oh, believe me, one has the option not to follow rituals. You just go in and sit down, and no-one will care. But to make an effort to show respect is a noble thing to do.

What does a goldfish have to do with anything but Elmos goldfish "Dorethy"?

Sikhs respect others religions but we dont take part of them. We take part of their activities/fundraisers but not the church part of it.We dont think we are better we know how to acheive salvation through Sikhi and dont need anyother way unless you convert to them and then you are an apostate of Sikhi.

"Salvation through Sikkhi"?

Try salvation through humanity :TH:

If a Hindu pandit came to a gurdwara and bowed down in from of Sri Guru Grant Sahib, id think he's a phony pandit by bowing down to teachings he doesnt believe in, i would have a lot more respect for a Hindu pandit who refused to. If a Sikh did not believe in Hindu rituals (ringing of bells), but performed the rituals anyway, he would also become a phony in my eyes. Why must a person from a different faith take part in the rituals and prayers of another faith to show respect?

There is no "must". But, "in my eyes", it is respectful. Everytime I go to a Sikkh wedding, there are always white family friends who pay there respects. It's just an action; it might not mean anything to you, but it is an immense sign of respect and humility to your friends who will actually respect your tolerance in return.

I know what my beliefs are. Ringing a bell in a mandir isn't going to change that.

Any ritual from any religion is essentially meaningless, anyway (yes, yes, that includes Sikkhi...) but what counts is understanding what it is that you are doing and what it means. It is possible to engage in the rituals of other peoples' religions but not invested in them. Or...you can invest in them believing that your thoughts and prayers are going to the same God, no matter what name you call him by, how one designs their place of worship, or which words of prayer they utter.

Arrogance? Have Sikhs ever told non Sikhs to change their look when entering a gurdwara? All we ask of them is to cover their head and be free from all intoxicants, but ur talking about Khalses adandoning their identities, their saroop that is never meant to be comprimised, would a Sikh ever tell a Brahmin to take off his Jenuo, or remove his tilak? Who are the arrogant ones here, the Sikhs or the ones who wouldnt let the Sikhs enter?

Whenever my family attends a Hindu function, my dad goes in wearing his turban.

He doesn't even have to be intoxicant free or change his headwear

When Guru Gobind Singh Ji recommended that those five (it was five, by the way, not two...my bad ) Sikkhs 'dress down' as it were, it was because the Hindus of that temple were rather intimidated by them.

True, but i had a hard time believing that a Sikh was defending Frances' system by trying to make sense of their policy.

You think it was only Sikkhs who were affected by France's constitutional ammendments? Look beyond your own struggle.

U dont know me or what i do or dont do to educate others about Sikhi, so making assumptions. The 5 k's are all for practical use, they're not symbols, the kirpaan is one of the five k's, now u decide, is it a symbol that can be put aside if it may offend a few people or a part of a Sikhs body that he or she cannot live without? And if we educated westerners about Sikhi the way u think we should, they'd think we're sword carrying posers that perform rituals of another faith and actively take part in their form of worship to show respect.

Wow.

You're taking apples and pears, sticking them in one basket, and calling them the same thing.

This type of misrepresentation is known as a strawman argument, and I am not impressed.

You're implying that I think Sikkhs are "sword carrying posers that perform rituals of another faith and actively take part in their form of worship to show respect"? Have you listened to a word I've said?

Apparently not.

Again, i believe that most of u had convincing arguments, and i agree with most of them, but max, u sound a bit wishy washy to me with ur strange sakhis and ur ringing of bells.

I don't go out of my way to ring bells, my friend. But hey, if you're so insecure about your beliefs that you think something as trivial as ringing a bell has now sealed your fate behind the gates of Hell, don't let me stop you. I just think you sound a little but too fascist. Not like a true Sikkh who understands what Sikkhi actually means.

To me you sound Hindu. and not Sikh

My mom trys to have me go to her church. I respect it but I wouldnt go to their functions.

She wouldnt ever go to the Gurdwara so why would I bow to her church.

That kind of point-scoring, 'opposing team' mentality has no place in Sikkhism.

Sikhs respect other religions but dont go and take part of one.

People justify Hindu things with Sikhi and its not true.

Guru Gobind was an idol breaker so why would he have two men go into a mandir and forget ONE GOD.

He would tell them to respect but not bow down to their ways.

"Forget"? We're not goldfish, Pritam

I went to a Church once and observed all their codes of conduct. I've been to Hindu mandirs whenever friends have functions there and do the same. All of my non-Sikkh friends (apart from the Muslim ones... ) comes to the Gurudwara on functions and bow their head in front of the Guru Granth Sahib.

Guru Gobind Singh Ji opposed idol worship, yes. But paying your respects to someone else's religion doesn't suddenly mean you're worshipping multiple Gods.

One should have enough confidence and clarity of their own beliefs to be able to do such things. It's like homophobes who make a conscious note not to associate with, respect, or 'act' like gays because they are themselves insecure about themselves on the inside.

The day the Thief of Rage is allowed to run rampant and free is the day the Khalsa of Master Gobind's image ceases to exist; it is replaced by the Army of Satan.

May the sword be used for the righteous cause of humanity, and not the selfish cause of meaningless dogmatic attachments. Only then will the true spirit of the Khalsa Panth remain alive to save humanity from its own perils.

Bear with me Max, I hope you don't mind me challenging you and picking your brain at the same time.

"Mind" it? I live for it

Max when you are really warm and you wish you had worn shorts, do you strip down to your underwear?

When you are at a red light and there are no vehicles that you could collide with do you run the red light?

Is the state or society showing intolerance by discouraging such "at peace" choices?

OR is it that even in your secular, tolerant, democratic state you adhere to selective order and discipline?

Are your actions/order motivated by fear and apathy of thought. Or are your actions/order motivated by true peace,repect, and love in the form of activism?

Perhaps you don't even identify with Sikhi. If that's the case, then excuse me for my misunderstanding.

I was born into a Sikkh family, to my loving parents, to my wonderful family. I am undecided as to whether or not I believe in karma, but when I look at my incredible fortune, even I wonder what I possibly could have done in a past life that allowed me to be born with such luck. My date of birth is even the same as Guru Nanak's favourite number: 13 (théra, or "yours")

I had worn bana for...oh...twelve years? I eventually cut my hair for no particular reason (I think my dad cut it...I had this funny habbit of squinting with my eyes as a kid...it looked like I was really very awkward...and my dad thought it had something to do with my hair). I had been brought up on tales of heroism and courage and compassion and intelligence of the Ten Masters, and their lives became my life. Apparently, I was questioning why it was that God allowed people to suffer by the age of four, which my mother said really freaked her out. She said (in Punjabi, of course ) "I don't know from where this little Buddha has come into our house" That still makes me laugh even today, but I can't help the fact that I have always asked more questions than people have been comfortable with. My dad apparently had to stop me from speaking to his friends and his elders because I was embarassing them with the replies I was giving to their statements. But, when we were intimate, my parents were very tolerant and encouraged my questioning nature to grow. For that, I am eternally grateful.

Whenever I look at pictures of Guru Nanak, I always feel a sense of brother-ship with him. I can't describe it in words, but I know that I never feel about this way about any Guru. Even Guru Gobind Singh Ji (who actually reminds me of my masar-ji :D ), who is awe-inspiring in his own right.

Now, as a cut-haired Sikkh who sometimes gets a little lazy when it comes to trimming my beard, I look like a typical Muslim. No-one looks me in the eye or treats me normally. Every white person looks down their nose at me. I commute by train twice a week with three big, black bags (back-pack, a sports bag and a briefcase) and pretty much every pair of eyes on the train is staring at me for the full two hours of my journey. In fact, just today (and I just posted this on another board), I was walking down the street and a white dude shouts out "there aren't any Mosques here!". "Well, that's handy since I'm not Muslim", I yelled back. "You look like a Muslim". "If you mean I look like a human being", I said, "then I appreciate your observations, sir".

A few months back, I was crossing the road and a Muslim guy was crossing from the other side. As we passed, he goes "asalaam alikum my Muslim brother". I replied, "I'm not Muslim. But I am your brother".

I've even been physcially attacked (mental note: full beer cans hurt...and your clothes smell when it is open ), verbally abused, and had my family threatened to be killed (including my then-8-year old brother and 12-year old sister) by whites. You would have thought that this would encourage me to shave every day...and yet I refuse to do so. My beard is bigger than it's been for a while, and I refuse to trim it. As long as I can reveal the truth of peoples' ignorance and prejudice using this form of those who decide to speak to me, I am going to use this form to do it.

Bana isn't something I "fear". It's something towards which I am entirely indifferent. It is one's actions, and not one's choice of robes, prayers or lack of haircut that defines who a man or woman is.

So I guess you could say that my "actions/order [are] motivated by true peace,repect, and love in the form of activism"

Lionchild we have so many punjabi people going around calling themselves Sikh who are too weak to maintain a proper beard or dastar. They believe they have the right to call themselves Sikh because of the family in which they were born. This beleif is akin to that of many of the Hindu faith.

It seems that Hindustan would also prefer to define those people as Hindu, so it's a harmonious fit. Those punjabi Hindus (calling themselves sikh) are still dear brothers and sisters of mine as we share parts of culture and also possibly share history and values although more so with their parents or grandparents.

You on the other hand my dear aboriginal bro who finds Sikhi truly from the inside are the Sikh that I aspire to be. You are the promising future I strive for and the glorious past I search for.

"Na koi Hindu, na koi Musalman...na koi Sikkh." ~ Guru Nanak Dev Ji REMIX :D

We don't know who Guru Ji has accepted as his own and who He hasn't.

Ek Onkar.

All is One. One is All.

We are all One with God, whether we realise it or not.

Man i hear some weird sakhis sometimes, this was one of them. The two Khalse wore their hair down and did rituals??? Hmmm, Guru Gobind Singh Ji said that a Sikh does not perform rituals even by MISTAKE, and ur telling me that Sikhs completely abandoned their kakkars and performed Hindu rituals to read a few religious texts? Those are not characteristics of the Khalsa I've heard of. Why didnt Sikhs use this strategy when a price was put on their head and they were living in jungles? Sikhs chose to die than abandon their saroop blessed to them.

When I go to functions in the Mandir of my Hindu friends, ringing the bell does not suddenly turn me into a Hindu.

But I am showing my respect towards their faith.

Chill.

And how are Sikhs marching into someone elses world? This is my world, and this is my country, im not a freakin outsider.

Marching into a temple sacred to a group of people with your arrogance in your hands is the most un-Khalsa-like thing you can do.

France is racist, dont gimme none of that preventing anti-religious attacks garbage. I think being attacked for what u believe in is better than not being able to practice what u believe.

France has the right to be what they want to be.

Why do u Sikhs wear kirpaans? Why did Guru ji gave it to us? What has it been used for? Imagine if there were a few Amritdhari Sikhs carrying kirpaans flying on the highjacked planes on 9/11, things would've been a little different dont u think?

Yeah. But the question is "what are you gonna do about it?". Are you gonna sit there, moaning? Are you gonna go out and act like a hooligan whilst convcing yourself that you're being a 'good Sikkh'? Or are you going to start an initiative to educate Westerners about the nature of Sikkhism?

Most of u guys have made really good points, but MAX, sorry, u dont make any sense, i think u have a real serious case of Sikhbarringarmsphobia.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa

Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

"Think" what you want. The truth doesn't change that you are highly misinformed about both myself and the true nature of what you perceive to be 'your religion'. With all due respect, my friend, I feel you need to broaden your horizons. Read more, learn more, live life. Realise that reailty is not the world that has been made for you since the year dot.

Heh...human beings make me laugh, man

They can't see what's right in front of them...and I'm not talking about Muslims converting non-Muslims, either.

If you get front row seats to a show, why would you not sit there?

As Sikhs #1

Wow, I coulda' sworn that was an example of ego...

I think such a noble philosophy stated above is worth preserving and crystallizing. It should become a basis for the ethos of modern society.

I'm humbled you agree

The promotion of the philosophy beyond the abstract requires order or a form of community.

I don't believe that there is anything necessarily "abstract" about virtue.

"I wish to be virtuous, and Lo! Virtue is at hand!" ~ Confucius

The "form" it takes is through my actions. The "community" it develops will be one that recognises no leader, and will arise through the common humanistic appeal that these ideas have.

It should be a community of the humblest disciples. At the same time, those who undertake such a noble and virtuous path should endeavor to the highest discipline. They should conduct themselves as a practical living peace corps or army in uniform for humanity. That’s a type of uniform you’d no doubt adorn with pride.

I think that the world ought to exist as a democratic, secular, tolerant state. The only thing that is not tolerated is intolerance towards any other group of human beings. I think that the world as it exists today is far better in many respects than the world of the 17th century. No, things aren't perfect, but all the institutions are in place to create something wonderous.

Good!, then be a Sikh and adorn the BANA bro. Unless you’re a nudist, may I suggest you are for a form of “bana”. The question is not whether you are for a “bana” but whether your “bana” is a product of your local mall or BANA of your conscience.

Hehe...are you implying that one wears Bana or remains nude? I believe in a life of moderation. Normal clothes, a haircut every six weeks, trimming my stubble on a Sunday afternoon, living a life that is satisfying on every level, from physical to spiritual... If one feels complete by wearing Bana, then they are entitled to wear bana. If one feels at peace with how they are, then should stay as they are.

(Max, I’m certainly not anyone to advise on BANA, but judging from your posts, you’d be someone who I could see fitting the bill well. Some nice contributions on the forum. I'm just going to be blunt with you, no beating around the bush... Get the BANA man, I know you’ll inspire yourself and others.)

Thanks for your opinion, my friend :TH:

great post bro, well said. but yes its true,some girls act like its sooo hard not 2 hav 2 relationship after the other, act like its sssoooo hard not 2 drink, soo hard not 2 lie 2 ur parents etc etc...

Indeed. It's pretty easy not to do the wrong thing...you just don't do it.

You fancy that guy? Get over it.

Your mate's been bitching about you? You don't have time for stupid games.

The dude tells you he loves you and hasn't felt this way about anyone before? He probably likes your panties more than he likes you.

It might sound depressing, but it's the truth. But once you realise how normal and mundane all this stuff is, you realise that your true focus in life becomes clearer. Your love for your family becomes stronger. Your respect for yourself becomes greater.

Sure, not everyone has the most understanding parents. But as long as you do your best to be moral and right in what you do, I'm sure that parents will understand. After all, they are supposed to be there to support you. And make sure you remind them of that when you sit down to talk to them.

You have a mind, body and a sense of morality.

For your own sake, use 'em for the benefit of you and your family. It might not be gratifying in the same way as fulfilling your more superficial concerns (which usually end in tears or some other form of suffering anyway...trust me, I've seen it way too many times in my female friends), but being virtuous and acting with a sense of nobility and self respect and love for those who actually love you back no matter what (i.e. your family) has a whole different kick and a type of empowerment that utterly crushes the other type.

Give it a go.

You might actually like it.

First of all, if one watches the news, it is becoming very apparent that there is no safe place for a Sikh. From the hate crimes to outright genocide, if someone here believes that the world is somehow a safe haven for Sikhs, they are kidding themselves.

Hate crimes happen to Muslim women wearing hijabs, too. Let's not forget that Sikkhs are not being attacked because of the principles of Sikkhism. They are being attacked because ignorant grunts do not even know what a Sikkh is and think that a dastaar-wearing Sikkh is a Muslim who sympathises with Islamic terrorists.

And "genocide"? Where? 1984? This is 2006.

Much has changed since 1984. Like...a Sikkh P.M. for example.

And if someone here thinks that the duty of the Khalsa is no longer needed, then you have only to look at Darfur, Sudan and other major world genocides to realize that the Khalsa is just as needed as today.

Good thind I didn't say that "the duty of the Khalsa is no longer needed" then, isn't it? :TH:

Regardless of what we can rationalize and do to make our minds at ease, it is a violation of Rehat, but the Sikhs are in a position of helplessness in this situation. I am sure the Guru will forgive...that is why the Guru is the Guru...but the Rehat is not negotiable...sorry.

"Not negotiable"? Okay, that's fine. But as long as you realise that you are limiting yourself as long as a civil compromise does not enter the scene. And you're gonna have to just live with that.

And one thing...if anyone wants to tread the path of Sikhi, never ever try to assume that the Gurus could not have "dreamed" of airliners 300 years ago or know all the difficulties that the Sikhs would have to go through. The Guru and the Almighty are One, and both are beyond the mental constraints of time and space. It is we who are ignorant enough to reduce them to our mentality without realizing that what the Gurus have outlined is beyond such mortal time-constraints as we percieve the world in. So when you make a comment like the Gurus not knowing what is going to happen in 300 years, realize that you are reducing the Guru to your and my mental level. And I for one certainly cannot compose the Guru Granth Sahib or make a Khalsa Panth...if you can, I am listening.

The Knight's Templar, the Crusades, the Imperial Samurai of Japan...creating a 'divine army' based on a religion isn't something new, and every time it is made it tends to make an impact on history. Interestingly, each one of these divin armies believes that they and no-one else will be rewarded.

The ol' reward scheme again. Like a dog doing tricks for that scrumptious-looking chocoloate bone. Bite-size, of course. Not the full-size one. That'd be wierd.

Personally, I don't take kindly to spiritual blackmail. But if you wish to believe a certain set of ideas, you are more than entitled to and I have nothing against you for doing so.

Furthermore, the Gurus (particularly Nanak) seemed more fascinated with God than necessarily being the same as him. The second Guru - daunted by his task of Guru-ship - even went into hiding for a good while before coming back. The fifth Guru confessed that he could not fully understand Guru Nanak's vision. And then, Guru Gobind Singh Ji - in order to topple the Mughal fascist dictatorship - used the devotion of the existing following to create an army of which he was the divine general. Like I said, this is nothing new.

But deciding how you choose to take this information and interpret it is rather important. For both you and those around you.

It's like competing companies trying to expand and become more powerful.

The Muslims reckon they'er being good Muslims (as well as that universal sense of gratification one gets when convincing someone else that their views are correct), and the Sikkhs respond with the idea that if they were as totalitarian and dominating over women as Muslims, that they wouldn't have this 'problem'. Which will actually only acheive in driving gals away.

This is a 'Catch 22' situation.

God recognises no distinction between human beings on the grounds of religion. We all know that.

And yet it hurts when someone 'converts' to Islam.

'Conversion' doesn't really exist, per se. Someone's biological make-up as a human being doesn't suddenly change (although the incestuous nature of many Muslim relationships will probably change that...), but what does happen is that a religion like Islam - founded on the tennets of killing or enslaving kafirs (infedels, non-believers...free-thinkers...) - is allowed to gain such momentum. It's a crime against humanity more than anything else.

Of course, girls who are actually thick enough to fall for it probably deserve it to some extent (seriously lady's...half the stuff guys say to you are just pre-used 'lines' they've adapted from some obscure movie or something). I think that Asian girls need to rethink their concept of what it means to be 'free' and 'independent'. It doesn't mean that just because they aren't necessarily 'religious' (whatever that may mean...) that they suddenly have only one other lifestyle to adhere to (namely, the most vulgar interpretation of Western life...I mean, at least have some class when you do it, eh?).

I don't keep my hair or anything like that. But I don't drink, smoke, do weed or do drugs...even though most of my friends do. Including the ones who wear a dastaar.

Why do I do this?

Because I choose to lead a strong and virtuous life.

Girls can do this with great ease. I know plenty who do.

sarover at amritsar is all amrit, we bath in amrit, evry day akaal purak puts 5 shiteh of amrit in. its jus like 1 big bata. theres paath constantly read there so the energies r put into it

Oh...my...God

Aw, what the heck...yeah, sexual discrimination has about as much place in Sikkhi as a fish does flying in the sky.

Makes you wonder: if such simple corruptions as sexual discrimination, assault, etc, what else have we allowed to creep in over the last three hundred years?

Thinky, thinky...

If the sangat does not question, propose and reform, outside forces will do it for them.

:mellow:

I pray that such a day will never come.

I pray that human beings will stop killing other human beings.

I pray that 'Khalistanis' realise that Khalistan needs to be the very world in which we inhabit - a land of democracy, secularism and tolerance - and must be made through virtuous deeds, not through an over-zealous desire to pick up a sword when the Tenth Master clearly stated that it is the very last resort when "all other means have been extinguished".

In today's world, we have infinitely more "means" than Guru Gobind Singh Ji, his contemporaries and successors ever had.

i wanted to ask why are there soo many hindu godesses in gurbani....pandits...... vedas...Indra...Brahma...shiva...

i mean to say nothing bad about it ...but its just bit confusing cuz it seems to be like theres a connection between sikhi and hinduism @ ?...sorry if ive seaid something wrong....

bhul chuk maaf!

If one understands the fact that the Gurus were speaking to people who were familiar with only Islamic and Hindu practices, it makes sense that they would base the metaphors and images of their teachings on ideas that already existed in the local mindset of the people to whom they were trying to communicate with.

There are mentions of God as Allah in Gurbani as well in an attempt to display the Nanakian philosophy that God has no name that us humans could give Him, and names are merely for our own convenience.

What matters is the message behind it. Sikkhism isn't about marginalisation (although it's easy to believe seeing the way some Sikkhs seem to behave... ) but about trying to express the truth. The truth remains the truth no matter which way one chooses to express it. Gurbani expresses it in a plethora of ways using a number of metaphors and images that contribute to the immense grandeur of its poetry.

Great stuff.

Yup Sikh Sahib. I live in Sac, Cali

You cant tell that Im driving on the left side of the car and the right side of the road. :nihungsmile:

lol, you ever see some of those old import cars? they drive ont eh right side (the driver)... O_o

i think wearing those mini kirpans and a blunt kirpan is not very god, kind of loses the purpose of protection and helping others... i cant see people affectivly defending off a thug with a 2 inch kirpan on a necklace

This Shabad is by Guru Arjan Dev Ji in Raag Gauree on Ang 261 of SGGS Ji:

pauVI ]

pourree ||

Pauree:

lUx hrwmI gunhgwr bygwnw Alp miq ]

loon haraamee gunehagaar baegaanaa alap math ||

The sinner is unfaithful to himself; he is ignorant, with shallow understanding.

jIau ipMfu ijin suK dIey qwih n jwnq qq ]

jeeo pi(n)dd jin sukh dheeeae thaahi n jaanath thath ||

He does not know the essence of all, the One who gave him body, soul and peace.

lwhw mwieAw kwrny dh idis FUFn jwie ]

laahaa maaeiaa kaaranae dheh dhis dtoodtan jaae ||

For the sake of personal profit and Maya, he goes out, searching in the ten directions.

dyvnhwr dwqwr pRB inmK n mnih bswie ]

dhaevanehaar dhaathaar prabh nimakh n manehi basaae ||

He does not enshrine the Generous Lord God, the Great Giver, in his mind, even for an instant.

lwlc JUT ibkwr moh ieAw sMpY mn mwih ]

laalach jhoot(h) bikaar moh eiaa sa(n)pai man maahi ||

Greed, falsehood, corruption and emotional attachment - these are what he collects within his mind.

lµpt cor inMdk mhw iqnhU sMig ibhwie ]

la(n)patt chor ni(n)dhak mehaa thinehoo sa(n)g bihaae ||

The worst perverts, thieves and slanderers - he passes his time with them.

quDu BwvY qw bKis lYih Koty sMig Kry ]

thudhh bhaavai thaa bakhas laihi khottae sa(n)g kharae ||

But if it pleases You, Lord, then You forgive the counterfeit along with the genuine.

nwnk BwvY pwrbRhm pwhn nIir qry ]52]

naanak bhaavai paarabreham paahan neer tharae ||52||

O Nanak, if it pleases the Supreme Lord God, then even a stone will float on water. ||52||

Yet another great passage.

Just to draw your attention to that final couplet; it is effectively saying that the Lord's Will is absolute. Even those who do 'evil' are only carrying out the Greater Will. No-one can ever defy it.

Nanak is frustrated with such maya-obsessed people...but ultimately finds peace in the fact that the Lord's Will is absolute.

Taksali singh I dont know how you are able to sneak pass those metal detectors...

what kinda Kirpan do you wear..

Rubber kirpan, perhaps? But isn't that pretty much useless?

most of the times what happens is that when the security person sees a person with turban they also do one round of search and running that hand held metal detector over you..

it was never possible for me to get past that...

Man, I gotta remove my belt, my kara, my watch, my keys and my wallet. I don't mind removing my kara. It's not like my actions have suddenly become ignoble or something.