(S Singh)

Bits and parts of it. Not all of it. Since you know my name, it would be courteous of you to also tell us your name.

When did I say not to read Bani? Why are you putting words in my mouth? It seems like you think in terms of black or white. So according to YOU, “I said” if you do Naam Simran of Vaheguru, you cannot do Gurbani Paat? When the heck did I say that? I don’t know how you interpreted that out of my posts, but it seems like you are trying to twist what I wrote. I’ve noticed this a lot with people in your Ghagha-Jeeowala camp. You guys take out of context the words of others and twist & misinterpret it to suit your personal agendas. This is dishonesty, and a dishonest person cannot be a Sikh of Guru Gobind Singh Jee. People who are so deceitful cannot preach the truth that they pretend to preach. Ghagha himself says he does not believe in doing Simran of Vaheguru, yet he claims to follow the Akal Takht Maryadha. This is hypocritical of him considering the fact that the Akal Takht Maryadha clearly says for a Sikh to do Simran of Vaheguru everyday in the morning. Mr. International Akali, so either admit that Ghagha is wrong or admit that Akal Takht is wrong. You cannot put your legs in two different boats. It is either one or the other considering that is the only option you have also given to others here who don’t follow the Akal Takht 100%. So which is it, Akal Takht or Ghagha?

First of all, I don’t claim to follow the SGPC Maryadha and put everyone else down by saying you are following anti panthic maryadha. The Maryadha I follow clearly forbids me from eating meat and I stick with it. But since you are beating the drum about how everyone should follow Akal Takht Maryadha then why don’t you and Ghagha Sahib also follow hukams in the Panthic Maryadha such as doing Naam Simran of “Waheguru”. This is not an optional, but a hukam in the Maryadha you claim to follow. You yourself claim that Naam Simran is not doing simran of Vaheguru, but instead it refers to Gubani. But Akal Takht Maryadha is clearly doing hukam to you to do Naam Simran of Vaheguru everyday. So who are you going to follow, Sardar Inder Singh Ghagha or are you going to follow the Akal Takht? And my name is Sher Singh, I live in Windsor Ontario. Next time I am in Bramton, you can visit me at Tapoban and personally deliver to me the letter.

Inder Singh Ghagha has said that he supports Kala Afghana and agrees with him. What conclusion do you expect us to arrive at? If Inder Singh Ghagha fully agrees with the Panthic Maryadha, then please explain to me why he refers to Naam-Japna as “Gorakh Dhanda” when the Panthic Maryadha clearly says on article four of the Maryadha that a Sikh should do Naam Japna. “1. A Sikh should wake up in the ambrosial hours (three hours before the dawn), take bath and, concentrating his/her thoughts on One Immortal Being, repeat the name Waheguru (Wondrous Destroyer of darkness).” So do you stand with Inder Singh Ghagha who calls this “Gorakh Danda” or are you going to stand with the Panth on this one which is clearly a part of the official Akal Takht Maryadha? BTW, I live in Windsor Ontario. But I whenever I visit Bramton I visit Tapoban Sahib. So come to Tapoban next time I am there and deliver to me the letter.

But according to the Kala Afghanists Jaap Sahib, Sawaiya and Choupi are not the krit of Guru Gobind Singh Jee. But according to Akal Takht's Panthic Maryadha these are the Krit of Guru Gobind Singh Jee. So which is it, do you stand with Kala Afghan-Ghaga on this one or with the Panth?

The books I have read from Sikh missionary seem alright. They are in line with Singh Sabha thought. But the new Kala Afghan-Ghagha movement just seem way off from the Singh Sabhiya way of thinking. These guys are trying to hijack the Singh Sabha name to give their faithless ideology some ground of acceptance. But I suspect that now it is just a matter of time before this movement dies down. As long as we have knowledgeable Singhs like Bhai Kulbir Singh Jee who can counter the propaganda of such pseudo scholars there is hope. These guys may try their best in trying to twist the meaning of Gurbani, but they cannot stand in front of a Singh who is knowledgeable in Gurbani Viakaran which is what happened when Inder Singh Ghagha faced Kulbir Singh.

AKJ are Singh Sabhiyas and are following Khalsa Maryadha in it’s original form without all the innovations and deviations which have crept into the Khalsa Panth over the centuries. Eating meat is clearly against Gurmat. Yet SGPC has no problem with this barbaric practice. SGPC’s maryadha changes to any direction to which the winds of politics takes it to. The original SGPC maryadha clearly stated the the Bhog should be done at Mundhavni, but later on under pressure SGPC changed its maryadha and wrote that the Bhog can be done at Mundhavni or Ragmala. I'm not trying to start another debate here, but clearly this shows how SGPC's maryadha is subject to change under political pressure. International Akali, since you follow the Kala Afghana-Ghagha Sikhi, can you tell me what is your stance on Dasam Banis in our Nitnem which Kala Aghanists are against, but SGPC supports? Are you going to go with SGPC’s stance on this or Kala Afghana-Ghagha’s stance?

The Pathan territory of NW frontier was a part of the Khalsa nation. The Sikhs took those territories very easily. In fact, the Pathans of Multan probably gave a stiffer resistance to the Sikhs than the Pathans of NW frontier. The only major problem Sikhs ever faced in the NW frontier was from the Wuhaabi fanatic Syad Ahmad Barailvi whose large army was defeated by a smaller Sikh army. Infact there is still a city in NW frontier called Haripur named after Hari Singh Nalwa. The Sikh army not only defeated the Pathans, but also the brave Gurkhas when the two armies faced each other for the control of Himachal Pardesh. If it wasn't for the betrayal by the Dogras, the Sikh army would have defeated the British army during the battle of Sabraon.

Balbir SIngh, where did Kulbir Singh Jee say that we should do simran to do certain chamatkars? Just because one person is arguing to prove the power of Naam does not mean one is advocating the use of Chamatkars.

This video is just 16 minutes of the entire debate. The total debate lasted 2 ½ to 3 hours. I think that the debate was a very Gurmat oriented debate and can set a precedent for future debates. If our community can have such intellectual debates, there would be no need for physical fights in Gurdwaras. I attended the last half hour of the second debate. It felt great just being there in the company of such intellectuals. The reason why there was no video recording of the first debate was because Ghagha Sahibs party refused to allow any recording. But they agreed to have the second debate recorded. At the tapoban meeting many people came with Ghagha Sahib. Maybe they were not all part of Ghagha Sahib's group, but just neutral people who just arrived there to watch the debate. In any case, Ghagha Shahib was not mistreated by anyone at Tapoban sahib. \ I wont name names, but it seems that certain people from Ghagha Sahib's group have a problem with Singhs wearing Shastars. By making fun of these Shastars, and resorting to sarcastic remarks like dho phutay gandasay, dho dho kilo dhay kaRay, you are just showing your frustration because Ghagha Sahib could not win in a debate as he usually does, so certain people out of frustration have resorted to making fun of the appearances of people from the opposing side. This is childish behaviour, which I think is even giving Ghagha Sahib a bad name. Ghagha Sahibs party changed the meeting place atleast 4 times because did were trying to avoid debating. Singhs waited 9 am as that was the time set for the debate. But Ghagha Jees party did not show up or even have the courtesy to phone. Finally when the Singhs phoned, after waiting for 2 hours, Ghagha Jees group was making all sorts of excuses for not debating. Then Kulbir Singh Jee and Ghagha Sahib talked directly with each other on the phone without any of the middle men, and both agreed to meet at a nearby neutral singhs house. And your claim that 100 people arrived is such an over exaggeration. Barely 10 extra people arrived and not one person laid a finger on Ghagha Sahib or any of his men. Ghagha Sahib claims that simply living a good life is Naam. He derogatorily saying that people who naam Jap as doing "Ghorakh Danda". Furthermore, he even says that Sikhs doing banis every day is no different from brahmans doing their Jantar mantar. This is insulting. This is against Akal Takht Maryadha which tells us to naam jap and to do nitnemi banis every day. Now this would be considered Ghorakh Danda and Totta Rattna to Ghagha Jee. International Akali, were you their at the second debate? if you were then we must have met each other.

hehehehehe What I find funny is how a certain 10 year old kid comes on public forums, and has nothing intelligent to add to a discussion being held by mature adults and thinks his cheap remarks even matter.

Namstang, We do satkar of Dasam Granth because it contains Gurbani. But when Guru Gobind Singh Jee himself gave Gurgadi to Damdami Bir, who are we to act more Siyaanay then Guru Jee and do parkash of Dasam Granth along with the DamDami Bir? Unless of course Guru Jee is fallible and needed to be corrected by us. To make innovations or deviations at an Amrit Sanchaar from what Guru Jee did while alive in human form is blasphemy. Just give us one puraatan source which says that Guru Gobind Singh Jee also did Parkash of a Dasam Granth bir alongside the Damdami Bir at an amrit sanchaar and I will believe you. But sorry to say, you will not even find one source stating this. These are all innovations which we have added along the centuries. 100 years from now, some one may decide to add more innovations by adding Bani of Bhagats which is not in SGGSJ and do parkash of them in a separate granth. But I guess that would also be ok with you because Sikhs can now decide what to give Gurgadi to. Damdami bir was not good enough, so will should now give Gurgadi to Dasam Granth. As for getting amrit with just a pothi, I would also prefer some real sources rather than hearsay. Without Panj Pyaray, there is no Amrit Sanchaar. Without a Sarbloh Bata/Khanda there is no Amrit Sanchaar. Without Guru, there is not Amrit Sanchaar. These are traditions which everyone/group/Jatha/Sampradah follows. So I don’t see why you are arguing otherwise.

I think that it is real blasphemy to say that Dasam Granth should be done Parkash along with Guru Granth Sahib Jee at an Amrit Sinchaar. As Sikhs we all respect Dasam Bani like we respect the Bani of other Gurus and Bhagats, but to give Dasam Granth Guru status when Dasam Patsha himself gave Gurgadi to Damdami bir is just an innovation. Maybe if we think we know more than Guru Gobind Singh Jee about Gurmat, then by all means add all innovations as you please. Without our Guru, there is no initiation into the order of the Khalsa. Today some are now claiming it is ok to use a pothi, tomorrow someone will say, let us just put a computer with Guru Granth Sahib Jee stored into it and conduct an amrit sanchaar. I’m sorry to say, but it just isn’t an amrit Sanchaar without Guru Jee. And Guru Jee is that which Guru Gobind Singh Jee gave Gurgaddi to. There are no ifs and not buts, it is that simple.