Jagroop Singh

Vahiguru ji ka khalsa, Vahiguru ji ki fateh! Dear Veer Hardeep Singh Khalsa ji, i humbly request PLEASE DO NOT contact the BNP and give them further ammuntion. They have already been able to, quite understandably, claim that they enjoy the support of many 'Sikhs' because of one or two misguided/ill-intentioned people who gave into their personal anger/hate for Muslims. A prominent Sikh organisation had to take-out a full page advertisement in a newspaper to counter any inferences that 'Sikhs support the BNP because they like 'us' hate Muslims'. Siree Guru Sahib Ji has NEVER taught us to be politicians and act in any politically expedient manner...let alone supporting the Munmukh 'enemies of our enemies'. The BNP are a prime example and would laugh themselves wet if they were asked by 'Sikhs' to support them at this rally. It would especially be a Godsend for them right at this time...because they have just shot themselves in the foot in the UK with their verbal attacks on Islam and so would love to, at such a diffcult moment, refer to the support they enjoy from non-Muslim Asians. Indeed, when being interviewed, Nick Griffin their leader mentioned the support he enjoys amongst 'Sikhs' in Derby. In other words some typically westernised Punjabi girls must have run away with Pakistani boys, and there must have been a few scraps - enough to lead someone to the 'not so bright' conclusion: 'Let's support the BNP because they hate Muslims like 'us'. Think very carefully and realise dear Veer ji that to support the BNP, or to request their support, is to support EVERYTHING that our Siree Guru Sahib Ji stands up against: + racial hatred + bigotry + segregation + prejudice Remember what Siree Guru Sahib Ji is teaching us when they say: 'GURSIKHI IS FINER THAN A HAIR AND SHARPER THAN A SWORD' The Singhs and Singhnian of Siree Guru Sahib Ji have enough Spiritual and Temporal shakti to ensure that if anyone on the day disrespects GurSikhi, they will NOT remain unchallenged both verbally and, if need be, physically. Therfore, to request or accept the support of the BNP would undeniably lead to Siree Guru Sahib Ji withdrawing their Maha-Kirpa - DO NOT make such a grave mistake dear Veer ji and rely upon the support of anyone aside from Siree Guru Sahib Ji. Vahiguru ji ka khalsa, Vahiguru ji ki fateh!

Vahiguru ji ka khalsa, Vahiguru ji ki fateh! Sadh Sangat Jio, It seems this thread has come to an unfortunate end...with many pertinent issues hanging in the air. Quite sad really because i was hoping that these issues could be discussed some more. Perhaps a Veer/Bhain ji could post a message on 'Sikh Awareness' and invite some of the members there to join this thread. i am aware that 'Akali Nihung / Sanaatan' philosophy is regularly discussed there...at least up until a year or so ago. i would post on there myself in order to invite them but promised my Siree Guru Sahib Ji that i wouldn't, and so do not want to go back upon my word. If anyone does post an invite there, please let me know that you have. Certainly, would be interesting to note that none of these people wish to enjoy such discussion... Thanks. Vahiguru ji ka khalsa, Vahiguru ji ki fateh!

Vahiguru ji ka khalsa, Vahiguru ji ki fateh! Sadh Sangat Jio, Just to reiterate: 'i still await 'GurooDaChelaa', who is conspicuous by his absence, or other supporters of Bhang / Sanaatanism / 'Akali Nihung' proponents to address Points 1, 2, 3. i do not feel these have been adequately addressed so far. i am also interested in any reponses re: the 'European' reference within the 'Hikiyat' quoted by Veer 'Gupti' Ji'. Let's help eachother with our Sikhi... Thanks. Vahiguru ji ka khalsa, Vahiguru ji ki fateh!

Vahigurui ji ka khalsa, Vahiguru ji ki fateh! Veer 'Gupti' ji, Thanks for your prompt reply and the mature manner in which you have responded. All too often people get really heated-up when discussing these kinds of issues so when a sense of calmness and thoughtfulness prevails, i really appreciate it. You have also shown humility by apologising and withdrawing certain words you have used. Thank you dear Veer Ji. You wrote: I don't think this has any relevance. The malpractises of Ranjit Singh should not be confused with Sikh practises and beliefs. Ranjit Singh even had to get pesh from Akali Nihangs at one point in his reign. Veer Ji, i think it does have relevance. i say this because it was under Ranjit Singh's influence that the Misls were united and it was he who was looked upon by many, if not most Sikhs and non-Sikhs, as their leader...the Monarch presiding over 'Khalsa Raaj' as it were. The fact that he formally reigned as a 'Maharaj' could be argued as going against Gurmat. The concept of monarchy is anathema to Sikhi; aside when referring to Vahiguru or Siree Guru Sahib Ji. Which other non-Guru figure has been referred to in these terms? At the very least we should admit that he did not espouse the lofty Khalsa ideals via his actions...therefore, a kingdom established by the 'Khalsa blood' of his forefathers was hardly going to remain consolidated under his/his descendants' rule. It was obviously not Vahiguru& #39;s Will. One could even argue that perhaps Vahiguru's Kirpa was withdrawn because this was not a real Khalsa Raaj. You wrote: 'My rationale for Bhang was that Nihangs took it in the past before going into battle and they should not be vilified for this'. i would not say that they should be subject to outright, blind, hate-filled vilification but certainly, we should not appease supporters of Bhang by sheepishly accepting it is a 'sacrament of the Khalsa' etc. and let them make out as though this is the 'True Khalsa Way' completely un-challenged. Conversely, when Siree Guru Sahib Ji via Bhagat Kabir Sahib Ji states that all those who consume Bhang will face Narakh/Hell, then in my limited opinion it would be Beadbi of Siree Guru Sahib Ji to ignore such a statement and to let others be misguided. You wrote: 'As per the rest of your post, with Points 1 and 2 in mind, Dasam Bani is controversial due to certain parts. But it cannot be wholesalely disregarded as Guru's Bani because there are passages in there that are no doubt the works of Guru Gobind Singh Ji. But because judgement is open on certain parts of Dasam Bani it is impossible to regard it or disregard it as Guru's Bani'. i do not wholesaleley disregard the Dasam Granth. i just think there is no sound basis to accept it in its entirety as a 'completely inclusive section' of Siree Guru Sahib Ji. Regardless of which Banis are written by Siree Guru Gobind Singh Ji, He did not give it any such authority - He is All-knowing and All-wise...Master of The Universe...what are we - not even insects in His Presence. Hence, how can the 'cart lead the horse'! But i accept you do not wish to address this point Veer Ji. Perhaps someone else, who supports the use of Bhang by 'the Khalsa', can take the lead. As for the unauthenticated Banis, i would not even dare to refer to them as Siree Guru Sahib Ji's word without knowing the Truth. The Panth has collectively declared that Jaap Sahib, Chaupai Sahib etc. are authentic. If there were more reliable and conclusive evidence regarding the other sections of Dasam Granth, this discussion would not have to take place...that would certainly be better for the Panth - but such is Vahiguru's Infallible Will. i still await 'GurooDaChelaa', who is conspicuous by his absence, or other supporters of Bhang / Sanaatanism / 'Akali Nihung' proponents to address Points 1, 2, 3. i do not feel these have been adequately addressed so far. :wub: i am also interested in any reponses re: the 'European' reference within the 'Hikiyat' quoted by Veer 'Gupti' Ji. Thanks. Vahiguru ji ka khalsa, Vahiguru ji ki fateh!

Vahiguru ji ka khalsa, Vahiguru ji ki fateh! The points raised by Veer MKhalsa Ji are interesting - certainly as an ayurvedic treatement, Bhang may have been used to treat specific injuries i.e. just as other botanical/herbal ingredients would have and still are used for a specific outcome. It certainly would have been conclusive if better historical sources existed which detailed the exact extent of Bhang's use amongst those 'Akali Nihungs', its specific applications and the intended outcomes. But as Veer MKhalsa Ji states, today there are many arguably much superior pain suppresants available...which don't effect our psychological state. Nonetheless, lets always keep in mind what Siree Guru Sahib Ji says about Bhang via Bhagat Kabir Sahib Ji...for me, that Pankti is the supreme authority on this issue. Let's move on to other pertinent issues. Veer 'Gupti' Ji's words appear in bold type. Whether Bhang should be allowed in Sikhi is not what I am debating Veer 'Gupt' Ji, that is good - thanks for refocusing the debate. i am glad that you are not trying to place 'Hikayat' at the same level as Siree Guru Granth Sahib Ji, as many 'Sanaatanists/Akali Nihangs' do. Cannabis was used by many Shaheeds in history The point you bring to this debate is supported by this? That's quite a generalised statement! If you mean that some/many/most/all 'Akali Nihangs' of the Ranjit Singh period took part in wars and died whilst intoxicated on Bhang, then indeed that may be correct. The point that a Veer Ji made earlier about the amount of wars du ring this period as opposed to just before it is an interesting one...perhaps someone could shed more light upon this. Let's also remember many of Ranjit Singh's practices...alcohol, other intoxicants, harem of women, extreme polygamy etc. That's why in my belief, according ot what i have read about it, this period actually represents a dark period of Khalsa History. The authenticity of Dasam Granth is beyond my knowledge so I cannot give an opinon. Veer Ji, earlier-on you were requested to provide proof that Siree Guru Sahib Ji advocated and supported the use of Bhang - you responded directly by providing 'Hikayat'. PLEASE do not do this in the future - you attributed something very controversial and even offensive to Siree Guru Sahib Ji whilst all along it seems that you were not even sure of the 'authenticity of Dasam Granth'. That is quite a thing - please ask for maafi from Siree Guru Sahib Ji for this error. If you were not sure you could have atleast said that this 'Hikayat' allegedly is the Word of Siree Guru Sahib Ji...ponder over this; it is indeed an important issue for you upon a personal, Gursikhi level. But the third point that you made can also be directed at tea, coffee and Cola. All alter the way we perceive, feel and react to sensory stimulation. But not in the same way Veer Ji. THC fools the body into thinking it is anandimide which is naturally produced by our body when we are content/happy etc. The brain's anandimide receptors clutch the THC because it is virtually the same structure as anandimide. Hence, thinking processes are directly altered. Bhang induces a state of Maya. As a sidenote, it is interesting to note that the word 'anandimide' contains the word anand; Sanskrit for 'bliss'. This points towards the strong connection between Bhang and its use in India. Siree Guru Nanak Sahib Ji, according to one particular Sakhi, refused Bhang from Emperor Babar who t ook him to be a Hindu Sadhu. Apparently he said words to the effect 'What would this worldly intoxicant do compared to the intoxication of Naam'. Perhaps a Veer/Bhain Ji who is reading this post can track down this Sakhi. If this Sakhi is authentic, there is an important learning point here regarding the use of intoxicants. Returning to the matter at hand, anyone who takes Bhang in whatever form is basically giving their brain the impression that 'everything is ok' when it isn't...remember that THC is specifically PSYCHOACTIVE in it's nature unlike tea, coffee etc. which contain caffeine. Caffeine works primarily upon the nervous system. Even heroine is not psychoactive; it works literally by altering the levels of bloodflow. Veer Ji it seems that everyone, including you, have presented their points re: Bhang. To be honest what more can be said now re: its physical/psychological effects...the choice is now yours as to what you believe. One also has to realise that only a small amount of the leaves are required to make "Shaheedi Degh", therefore we cannot compare tea/coffee/etc with someone high on smoking weed Veer Ji, this is the first time quantity has been mentioned. Are you saying that the drink is not intoxicating because of the 'amount' of ingredients it consists of? Then why are leaves of an intoxicant, which Siree Guru Sahib Ji via Bhagat Kabir Sahib Ji condemns outright, being put into the body - for purely symbolic purposes? i can't help but thinking that this Bhang argument gets weaker every time one looks at it, or when others attempt to support it! Also i don't fully understand your point quoted above - you seem to point towards a connection between: (i) the amount of Bhang used (ii) the amount of tea / leaves coffee used (iii) people who ingest Bhang via their lungs as opposed to stomach tracts. Veer 'Gupt' Ji, please explain the gist behind this sentence. Off the top of my head works such as Ratan Singh Bhangu's Prachin Panth Prakash mention sukha. Nihang Singhs consumed sukha before going into battle. Many Nihang Singhs became Shaheeds in these battles. This response to Veer Bikramjit Singh again seems to point towards your reliance upon 'histroical sources' as opposed to Dhurki Bani i.e The Authenticated Word of Vahiguru contained within Siree Guru Granth Sahib Ji, the very Nemesis of this Kal Jug. How can you place such faith in the murky words of mortals compared to the Light of Lights, Siree Guru Sahib Ji? Via historical sources it is obvious what these 'Akali Nihangs' were doing during this period of recent history; i fully accept that. But to validate it, just because 'it happened' and is recorded in contemporary sources is a major failing - in fact it is an act of shoddy logic. If your belief in Bhang has this rationale as its foundation, then Veer Ji i recommend that you seriously reassess what you want out of Sikhi...please. The following points that were raised have not been addressed; perhaps someone else can respond to them. Perhaps 'GurooDaChela' can do so. They are: POINT 1 - Without getting into the authenticity of Dasam Granth, EVERYONE accepts that it was never personally ordained as Guru by Siree Guru Gobind Singh Sahib Jee. It was apparently the 'Akali Nihangs' (the 'followers') who placed it upon such a pedestal, along with 'Sarbloh Granth', directly alongside Siree Guru Granth Sahib Jee. This is the 'Akali Nihangs' own admission. Ask yourself since when should the cart decide where the horse should lead it! i.e. the followers decide and overide what their leader ordains. POINT 2 - Keeping Point 1 in mind, if 'Hikayat' mentions the consumption of drugs, then this is not to be taken as fact. This is simply because Siree Guru Sahib Jee says, via Bhagat Kabir Sahib Jee, that we are to stay away from cannabis. The question is do the 'Akali Nihangs' ; not view the Word of Bhagats as equal to the rest of GurBani? In other words, do they have a 'two-tier respect' approach concerning Siree Guru Granth Sahib Jee? This question was in part raised earlier by a Veer but remains, somewhat conspicuously, unanswered. POINT 3 - It must be remembered that cannabis' active ingredient is THC which operates upon a psycho-active level i.e. alters the way we perceive, feel and react to sensory stimulation. To argue that Siree Guru Sahib Jee ordained that such a state of mind was neccesary for the Khalsa, above and beyond the Beant Power of Naam, is in my opinion sheer ignorance or stupidity and is borne out of a complete lack of faith in GurSikhi. Are we saying that the Khalsa Akaal Purakh Ki Fauj, created complete by Siree Guru Gobind Singh Sahib Jee through Vahiguru's Beant Shakti, were lacking mental strength, physical prowess etc. and needed a 'drug-induced' boost? ADDITIONAL QUESTION - Out of interest, in the 'Hikayat' the following lines appear: `Oh, Saki, give me the cup full of green liquid, `So that I may keep the secret enshroud.(178) `Oh Saki! Give me the greenish wine of Europe, `Which I may need on the day of war.(179)(10) Why is the Nasha referred to as 'the greenish wine of Europe'? i will be grateful to any Bhang supporters, 'Nihungs' or 'Sanaatan Sikih'/'Akali Nihang' sympathisers who can answer these queries. 'GurooDaChela', are you still around, because your Seva in this regard would be most appreciated. Vahiguru ji ka khalsa, Vahiguru ji ki fateh!

Vahiguru ji ka khalsa, Vahiguru ji ki fateh! Dear Veer(s) who have supported the use of Bhang, Please, if you have the time, rejoin this thread. Thanks. Vahiguru ji ka khalsa, Vahiguru ji ki fateh!

Vahiguru ji ka khalsa, Vahiguru ji ki fateh! Sadh Sangat Jio, Veer / Bhain 'ms514' has made some highly relevant points - additionally let's consider the following: POINT 1 - Without getting into the authenticity of Dasam Granth, EVERYONE accepts that it was never personally ordained as Guru by Siree Guru Gobind Singh Sahib Jee. It was apparently the 'Akali Nihangs' (the 'followers') who placed it upon such a pedestal, along with 'Sarbloh Granth', directly alongside Siree Guru Granth Sahib Jee. This is the 'Akali Nihangs' own admission. Ask yourself since when should the cart decide where the horse should lead it! i.e. the followers decide and overide what their leader ordains. POINT 2 - Keeping Point 1 in mind, if 'Hikayat' mentions the consumption of drugs, then this is not to be taken as fact. This is simply because Siree Guru Sahib Jee says, via Bhagat Kabir Sahib Jee, that we are to stay away from cannabis. The question is do the 'Akali Nihangs' not view the Word of Bhagats as equal to the rest of GurBani? In other words, do they have a 'two-tier respect' approach concerning Siree Guru Granth Sahib Jee? This question was in part raised earlier by a Veer but remains, somewhat conspicuously, unanswered. POINT 3 - It must be remembered that cannabis' active ingredient is THC which operates upon a psycho-active level i.e. alters the way we perceive, feel and react to sensory stimulation. To argue that Siree Guru Sahib Jee ordained that such a state of mind was neccesary for the Khalsa, above and beyond the Beant Power of Naam, is in my opinion sheer ignora nce or stupidity and is borne out of a complete lack of faith in GurSikhi. Are we saying that the Khalsa Akaal Purakh Ki Fauj, created complete by Siree Guru Gobind Singh Sahib Jee through Vahiguru's Beant Shakti, were lacking mental strength, physical prowess etc. and needed a 'drug-induced' boost? Can the relevant protaganists reply. When one steps back in an indifferent manner, it becomes obvious that this preoccupation with cannabis is nothing but Shaivite influence, one of the unsavoury by-products of the endemic disintegration of the Khalsa philosophy, during the Ranjit Singh period. It seems that the 'Akali Nihangs' of this period began to forget their true origins and the cohesiveness of Siree Guru Sahib's teachings. Out of interest, in the 'Hikayat' the following lines appear: `Oh, Saki, give me the cup full of green liquid, `So that I may keep the secret enshroud.(178) `Oh Saki! Give me the greenish wine of Europe, `Which I may need on the day of war.(179)(10) Why is the Nasha referred to as 'the greenish wine of Europe'? Vahiguru ji ka khalsa, Vahiguru ji ki fateh!

Portraying our Passions SUB - Mel Gibson has managed to successfully tell the story of Christ via the big screen. Is this something that Sikhs should look to as a lesson? BYLINE - We must speed-up the work of sharing our thoughts, feelings, aspirations and history. The Indian government finds it all to easy to depict us as thwarted terrorists and to re-write educational texts diminishing our place in Indian history. It is the books, films and artistic expressions we create which will give us, the nation without a country, its loudest voice. ------------------------------------------------------------ There was an excellent debate at my workplace just the other day. The people making-up the mix could be described in the following manner: someone from a Sikh background (me), someone from a Hindu background (colleague) and lastly, someone from a Roman Catholic background (other colleague). Independently of one another, we’d all watched The Passion of The Christ. For those who haven’t heard, this is Mel Gibson’s controversial movie which charts the last hours of Jesus Christ’s life and primarily focuses around the torture he endured just before being crucified upon the cross. It’s worth adding that many critics vehemently believe the film to be an anti-semetic diatribe, historically inaccurate and overly sadistic regarding its depiction of violence and torture. This has only encouraged Christians (and millions of non-believers the world over) to flock to cinema screens in order to experience what is being treated as a very important sermon; that is of the celluloid kind. Central to our colourful discussion was the following concer n: what’s the point behind the film if we are to understand it as a Christian message? For the Roman Catholic colleague, it was a film far too consumed with the last stage of Jesus’ life and not with what he represented and why he ended-up in the predicament he did; all-in-all, a missed opportunity. Fair point. For the Hindu colleague, it was emotional to the extent that she could not imagine how a group of human-beings could put a fellow human-being through so much pain. Another fair point; after watching the marathon mutilation scenes, I’d have to agree. Although I share to an extent the thoughts of my colleagues, for me there was a drastically different interpretation of the film. Although I was confronted very graphically by a great human-being who underwent great suffering because of what he believed, I found the film emotional not necessarily because it was Jesus Christ who was being depicted but because what he was going through is something that our Guru Sahibs, and many of their Sikhs, have had to endure – penalty of painful death. Take Fifth Nanak Guru Arjun Sahib for instance. He went through untold tortures because ultimately what he believed and put forward was not to the liking of the powers which held worldy authority at the time. However, let’s go on to consider Ninth Nanak Guru Tegh Bahadur Sahib. His martyrdom epitomises the very pinnacle of this most emotive of traditions – to give one’s life to protect the freedom and liberties of others; even when we do not necessarily agree with their beliefs and practices. This kind of Avastha (spiritual state) is not to my knowledge exemplified anywhere else by any other faith group. Whilst not trying to turn this into a competition, our Guru Sahibs have never gone down on record as even momentarily asking Vahiguru why He had forsaken them during their ordeal…something Jesus Christ apparently did. For Sikhs, it doesn’t just stop here. The whole concept of martyrdom is not something merely symbolised by the very originators of our faith. Gurs ikhs such as Shaheed Bhai Anokh Singh who had his eyes gouged, nails pulled out and was eventually ripped from limb to limb, prove that this tradition is a living and breathing reality for Sikhs – this took place at the hands of ‘the usual suspects’ less than 20 years ago; usual suspects being the Indian authorities. The ‘Guru Ka Bhag’ incident in 1922 is also a case in point. Hearing of the tortures that innocent Sikhs had to suffer, Father C.F. Andrews, a Christian missionary cried out; "I see hundreds of Christs being crucified every day". Put simply, if martyrdom is a competition, Sikhs win hands down. That’s why when I watched the film, the lump in my throat just kept getting bigger and bigger and bigger – those who have and will continue to give martyrdom for the Panth were represented in my eyes by Jesus Christ going through unspeakable tortures. I couldn’t help imagining this handsome long-haired figure as being Fifth Nanak Sahib or Shaheed Bhai Taru Singh; almost after the point where their Dastaar had been removed or fallen off during torture…and their tresses were flowing. I hope I haven’t offended anybody; this experience was something visceral and of course excessively personal. But a part of me is annoyed at itself with having to rely upon the unrelated accounts of others in order to experience my own specific feelings regarding our history and historic personages. When I hear Obi Wan Kenobi say in Star Wars (to Darth Vader); “If you strike me down, I will become greater than you ever imagine”, I get tired of having to imagine him as representing Fifth Nanak Guru Arjun Sahib. When the main character in Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon talks of how attachment to a worldly love stopped him from reaching enlightenment, I get fed-up of having to sculpt this into a message to myself regarding how Guru Sahib is teaching me about the perils of worldy attachment all the time. I want Sikhi to be projected to me without having to appear indirectly through other means…in its own right entirely. There’s a burning issue here in case you haven’t noticed. Do we Sikhs want to make films which depict our distant/recent history and experiences? What other kind of stories can Sikhi help us to realise? Will our endeavours simply be for our own consumption or will they be our attempt to engage the wider public? How about the ethics and conventions – would it be ok to for us to depict Guru Sahib via an actor? How can we ensure these narratives have a wider appeal and truly encompass archetypes and universal themes? These are all important questions. I was speaking to Simarjit Kaur, author of the well-received novel Saffron Salvation, and one of the things we spoke about was Sikh history-related films and novels. It becomes obvious even after an informal chit-chat concerning the current state of affairs that as Sikhs we need to create more; we need to utilise the written word and moving image – being the diasporic Sikhs that we are, we would enjoy an immense advantage in doing so. Unlike our brothers and Sisters who live in a country which claims to be a democracy, we do not have to bear the direct brunt of ‘forces’ who may wish to gag our mouths and limit our expressions. We are not restricted regarding the socio-political issues we may wish to allude to or directly tackle. One thing that Simarjit Kaur firmly impressed upon me was the following: anyone who can write, paint etc. should be doing so – we need to express our experiences. I for one was moved by her words and thought what the heck, I’m going to begin to write a novel or at the very least, a short play. I hope you also decide to get those creative juices flowing…eventually we’ll get around to looking for those rich Sikhs that we all know exist out there somewhere; will they help to fund things of such importance…well, we can only hope so. Otherwise, in ten years time, all we’ll have to show for ourselves are shoddy short stories and second-class movies destined only for Gurdvara Sahib video projectors. Although these part-time projects ma y be full of pyaar, they will certainly not be full of potential. So take this as a call to arms. Arm yourself with pens, brushes, cameras and above all, creativity and before you know it, we’ll have the skill and resources to really start showing people why Sikhi-inspired artistic expressions are such amazing things. After all, which spectator wouldn’t want to discover a treasure of evocative words and images created by people who’ve been spiritually inspired, socially empowered, continuously tortured, self-governed, ethnically cleansed, state-oppressed…and are still here to tell the story. (This article originally appeared in The Sikh Times, a UK-based English/Punjabi Newspaper)