Jagroop Singh

VahiGuruJiKaKhalsa,VahiGuruJiKiFateh! Sadh Sangat Jio, Khalsa Camp 2005 Albums / Framed Prints are now ready for sale. The album features 39 of the most illustrative photographs taken at the Camp. These have been mounted on grey card, and inserted into acid-free sleeves (which means the photographs will last) in a functional yet stylish slate grey album. These high-quality albums have cost approximately £15.00 each to produce, and we are charging £25.00 per album. We believe that at this price-point, they represent excellent value. Select framed 7x5 inch matte standard prints (£20.00 each), as well as some larger format framed professional prints (£30.00 each), are ready for ordering. Albums will be ready to purchase, while various framed prints will be ready to view and order, at the next UK Rainsbai (Sat 22nd Oct, Coventry). For those who wish to order the album and/or unmounted prints online, please visit Akaal Images after 24th Oct. PLEASE NOTE: KHALSA CAMP 2005 ALBUMS AND PRINTS WILL BE AVAILABLE TO PURCHASE VIA AKAAL IMAGES UNTIL 1st JANUARY 2005, WITH ALL PROCEEDS GOING TO KHALSA CAMP. Thank you. Admin Akaal Images e - info@akaalimages.com w - http://www.akaalimages.com t - (UK) 07866 639 472 VahiGuruJiKaKhalsa,VahiGuruJiKiFateh!

VahiGuruJiKaKhalsa,VahiGuruJiKiFateh! Sadh Sangat Jio, The photographs are now available to view at: Akaal Images Admin Akaal Images e - info@akaalimages.com w - www.akaalimages.com t - (UK) 07866 639 472 VahiGuruJiKaKhalsa,VahiGuruJiKiFateh!

VahiGuruJiKaKhalsa,VahiGuruJiKiFateh! Dear Sadh-Sangat Jio, There have been some technical difficulties but rest assured the photographs will be up by the evening (I've taken a day off work especially); there will be approximately 80-100 images to view. Those that have been identified as potential prints will not be ready to purchase - that mechanism should be ready by Monday. If you are interested in knowing when the purchase aspect of the site goes live, please send an email entitled 'PRINTS' to info@akaalimages.com. We are working towards making a sample 'KC2005 Album' ready for the Khalsa Talk (so people can see if they like it and then purchase online), but rest assured; their will be plenty of albums to purchase at the next Rainsbai. The professionally printed and framed photographs will not be available at Khalsa Talks - but will be available at the Rainsbai. Due to various reasons, we have decided not to produce a calendar - instead, we will keep this idea for next year. The photographs will be appearing on www.akaalimages.com but there will be a link from www.khalsacamp.com that also takes you to them. Please accept my apologies for any inconvenience caused by this delay. jagroop singh Akaal Images e - info@akaalimages.com w - www.akaalimages.com t - (UK) 07866 639 472 VahiGuruJiKaKhalsa,VahiGuruJiKiFateh!

VahiGuruJiKaKhalsa,VahiGuruJiKiFateh! Sadh Sangat Jio, May the Khalsa Camp/Akaal Images sevadaars take this opportunity to thank you for waiting so patiently. Khalsa Camp 2005 images will be ready for viewing by Monday morning (10th Oct 2005). Those who have sent an email to... info@akaalimages.com ...will be notified the moment the images are online. There will be around 100 pictures to view as well as the option to order some of them as professionally-produced prints. At the next UK Rainsbai which takes place on... Sat 22nd October 2005 @ Sri Singh Sabha Gurdwara Sahib Crossroads (Coventry) ...there will be professionally-produced and framed prints for sale. Hopefully, these may also be available at the upcoming Khalsa Talk which takes place as follows... Birmingham Sat 15th Oct 2005 2pm - 6pm There will also be an album (featuring approximately 30 standard prints) available soon. We are currently considering producing an official Khalsa Camp 2006 Calendar and will make an announcement if and when this becomes available. ALL profits made from these images will be used to make Khalsa Camp 2006 even better for campers next year. Thanks once again for all your support and encouragement. VahiGuruJiKaKhalsa,VahiGuruJiKiFateh! Admin Akaal Images w: www.akaalimages.com e: info@akaalimages.com t: (UK) 07866 639 472

VahiGuruJiKaKhalsa,VahiGuruJiKiFateh! Sadh Sangat Jio, KC 2005 was EXCELLENT - anyone who truly appreciated it should direct Siree Guru Sahib's money (i.e. your Daswandh) via a regular standing order to KC so that next year's Camp can be even better. Regarding photographs: - Selected images will be available to view on: www.khalsacamp.com from mid-September onwards; these will be low-res and watermarked i.e. just for viewing purposes. If anyone wants to be informed via email the very moment these photographs appear, please email: info@akaalimages.com with the email subject heading as 'KC 2005' - Anyone who wants to order professionally-produced colour prints will be able to do so via the KC website (when purchasing, they will be directed to: www.akaalimages.com - this site will be live within the next few weeks). Once the images go up, there will be a cut-off date by which everyone must pay for the images they want. This way we can order prints in bulk and reduce costs. - There will be an official KC 2005 Album which will comprise the best photographs. We very much hope that many people buy the album as this will, if people go for it, produce considerable revenue for Khalsa Camp. - A selection of Professionally mounted and framed large prints will be available for purchase from Jatha-related Rainsbais/Smagams etc. - There may be a KC Calendar available from mid-October onwards. This has yet to be confirmed. ALL PROFITS OBTAINED FROM THE SALE OF THE PHOTOGRAPHS, ALBUM etc. WILL GO TO KHALSA CAMP. VahiGuruJiKaKhalsa,VahiGuruJiKiFateh!

VahiGuruJiKaKhalsa,VahiGuruJiKiFateh! Sadh Sangat Jio, KC 2005 was EXCELLENT - anyone who truly appreciated it should direct Siree Guru Sahib's money (i.e. your Daswandh) via a regular standing order to KC so that next year's Camp can be even better. Regarding photographs: - Selected images will be available to view on: www.khalsacamp.com from mid-September onwards; these will be low-res and watermarked i.e. just for viewing purposes. If anyone wants to be informed via email the very moment these photographs appear, please email: info@akaalimages.com with the email subject heading as 'KC 2005' - Anyone who wants to order professionally-produced colour prints will be able to do so via the KC website (when purchasing, they will be directed to: www.akaalimages.com - this site will be live within the next few weeks). Once the images go up, there will be a cut-off date by which everyone must pay for the images they want. This way we can order prints in bulk and reduce costs. - There will be an official KC 2005 Album which will comprise the best photographs. We very much hope that many people buy the album as this will, if people go for it, produce considerable revenue for Khalsa Camp. - A selection of Professionally mounted and framed large prints will be available for purchase from Jatha-related Rainsbais/Smagams etc. - There may be a KC Calendar available from mid-October onwards. This has yet to be confirmed. ALL PROFITS OBTAINED FROM THE SALE OF THE PHOTOGRAPHS, ALBUM etc. WILL GO TO KHALSA CAMP. VahiGuruJiKaKhalsa,VahiGuruJiKiFateh!

VahiGuruJiKaKhalsa,VahiGuruJiKiFateh! Bhai Tav Prasad Singh Ji, i think that i've caused a misunderstanding here. That's because eventhough i agree with you 110%, it seems that you think i don't. Veer Ji, i am sorry - let me clarify. - i do not think that any such 'evenings' are needed to raise money for Siree Guru Sahib Ji's cause. Complete Visah/Bharosa/Faith in Siree Guru Sahib Ji would make all maya come begging at the door of this project. - Personally, i would only feel that this event was respecting GurMat if this restaurant ALWAYS served vegetarian, non-alcoholic products and was a 100% non-smoking environment.Then i would say that them raising money via pledges would not be a bad thing...i am not sure if this is strictly GurMat so if others have thoughts please share. - Also, i can't bear the thought of someone thinking i've taken Amrit when i haven't been belssed with such a gift, so i must tell you that i have not been given Amrit yet. i hope that Siree Guru Sahib Ji always continues to bless me with Sangat that takes me close to Him...and the day i am blessed with The Gift of Gifts. Reflecting back over the posts i made, perhaps the comments that i made sounded as though i was 'chummy' with the Trust. The fact is that some Naujawan based in Slough have been contributing to the project, over the last several years, when we have felt it is progressing appropriately and we have distanced ourselves when we have felt it is progressing innappropriately. As to the above event, for the record, i spoke to the Trust Chairman over the phone a few days ago and told him that: - There was no need for this event despite the fact that money is 'taking longer to come-in' than anticipated - The situation is being discussed on forums - Ultimately, this event is anti-GurMat and the situation is simply sad. VahiGuruJiKaKhalsa,VahiGuruJiKiFateh!

VahiGuruJiKaKhalsa,VahiGuruJiKiFateh! Veer Gursa Singh Ji, i couldn't agree more with EVERYTHING you say. It is just sad that the majority of the people who get to have the say about how money will or will not be raised regarding Panthik Projects' do not have this level of thinking. i wish they did but they don't. Please understand that i too am totally opposed to money being raised via a 'dead animal dinner and alcohol' scenario. It would have been nice if the restaurant said that for that evening, they would only serve vegetarian dishes and serve non-alocholic drinks... To be honest, i am not sure whether money made from food/drinks will go to the Trust or whether just money 'pledged' during the evening by individuals will go to the Trust. VahiGuruJiKaKhalsa,VahiGuruJiKiFateh!

VahiGuruJiKaKhalsa,VahiGuruJiKiFateh! Sadh Sangat Jio, The Slough Sikh School is a GurMat project - it will be excellent for Slough and Sikhs in general. However the majority of the Trust members, who i know personally, do not have the kind of GurSikhi Jeevan and Sochni which would make them understand why this should not be happening. They have good intentions at heart but do not understand why this is so inappropriate. What i am writing sounds harsh but it is the truth. Such situations as this are sad; however, please let us not think 'we will not support this project and will not donate'. i intend to continue supporting the Trust when it does things positively and not supporting the Trust when i think it is doing something negatively - as in this case. Sadly, we must accept that many people who attempt to do Seva do not have unflingching faith in Siree Guru Sahib Ji - to the point where they worry about 'how will we raise all the money'. It is this which leads to 'compromises' such as this. VahiGuruJiKaKhalsa,VahiGuruJiKiFateh!

VahiGuruJiKaKhalsa,VahiGuruJiKiFateh! Sadh Sangat Jio, SCAN (Sikh Community Action Network) is an initiative that was set-up by several Sevadaars in Slough who wanted to create a rallying point for like-minded Sikh activists. Currently SCAN activists are pursuing various initiatives. The following are two current projects: - Acting as the initiators and now as several of the dozen or so advisors assisting a youth-led Sikh Youth Forum. - Organising a residential trip in South wales for Single Panjaabi mothers. The following are just two recent successes: - Providing the co-ordination needed re: The Bring Home Balbir Singh Bains Campaign Group. - The adoption by Slough Borough Council of Sikh Ethnic monitoring after a long-running Campaign. Jagdeesh Singh is in Chardi-Kalaa as always - as a Panthic GurSikh, he has accepted this as Bhana and it has only served to add to his activistic zeal. He ensured that this story made it to the front page of the highly-circulated national Asian tabloid Eastern Eye...that the Slough MP, who works for the Home Office, took note of the fact that Sikhs are singled out (Slough has the highest proportion of Sikhs in the UK)...that lots of other media realised that it is usually Sikhs who have borne the physical brunt after September 11th. Lesser people would have sat at home and pitied themselves. This man is affectionately nicknamed 'the one-man revolution' by his friends and now you see why!!! Only two weeks ago he was one of three SCAN members who obtained photographic evidence for the GurSikhs who are doing the Mahan Seva of protecting Siree Guru Sahib Ji 's Satkaar i.e. the 'Respect Siree Guru Granth Sahib Ji Campaign' GurSikhs. Regarding the actual attack, it was indeed the fact that his nephew was with him that required calmness and resolve on his part...he assessed the situation and then realised that the best thing to do was to run to the first house in sight and get help. Please bear in mind that this is a GurSikh who not too long ago noticed a shoplifter making his get away...and being the man he is, Jagdeesh Singh chased him through the High Street, grappled with him and then kept him under control until the police arrived. He is the epitome of inspiration: you name it, and he's involved.....Panthic Causes....Environmental Issues...Animal Rights...Faith Partnerships...Race Equality...Political Lobbying etc.!!! ps - as you've probably guessed, i love the bloke! VahiGuruJiKaKhalsa,VahiGuruJiKiFateh!

Vahiguru ji ka Khalsa, Vahiguru ji ki Fateh! Sadh Sangat Jio, can someone who is a member of this news site stick this reply on...having trouble joining it as a member...can't post this reply as a result. thanks. Vahiguru ji ka Khalsa, Vahiguru ji ki Fateh! ---------------------------------- Dear Brother, You wrote: 'One has to recognize that the Khalsa order was a political movement that provided inspiring rituals for individual discipline driven towards the political cause of overcoming the Mughal injustice towards Sikhs. Religion divides, spirituality unites people'. May i humbly say that your opinion clearly displays the fact that you intentionally or unintentionally remain ignorant regarding the core philosophy of Sikhi (Sikhism) which engenders both Saintly and Soldierly qualities within its vision of the Complete Human Being. Thus, it is your misunderstanding that is 'dividing' people in this case. It was the 5th Guru, Siree Guru Arjun Sahib Ji, who himself personally instructed his son Siree Guru Hargobind Sahib Ji (who was passed the Guruship) to sit wielding both the Spiritual and Temporal Swords. This was before Siree Guru Arjun Sahib Ji voluntarily went to his martyrdom. Please contemplate upon this... Nowhere in both Sikh Scriptures or authentic texts is it stated or inferred that the Khalsa was created as a 'temporary' army. Quite the opposite in fact - it has been referred to as Akaal Purkh ki fauj - army of The Timeless. Please research Sikhi before making such uneducated and flimsy statements. They can do untold damage. Indeed, i am sure your statemen t already has. May The One bless you. Yours humbly, Jagroop Singh

Vahiguru ji ka khalsa, Vahiguru ji ki fateh! Sadh Sangat Jio, Using the word pa*ki is not in accordance with Gurmat - i will not even entertaion the thought of trying to convince fellow posters to stop using this and suchlike terms because to do so would be so patronising i.e. making the obvious even more obvious than it obviously already is! Through Siree Guru Sahib Ji's Beant Kirpa, The Gursikh's speech becomes like Amrit...it becomes good for everything and everyone - the Gursikh contemplates the things which leave his/her mouth, weighing them with the True Scales of Love, Compassion and Humility. May i humbly ask that we please refrain from such Munmat... Siree Guru Sahib Ji demands MUCH, MUCH better of us than this. Why would Vahiguru want to reveal His Darshan within people who cannot even control their mouths? Bhul chuk maaf karna jio. Vahiguru ji ka khalsa, Vahiguru ji ki fateh!

Vahiguru ji ka khalsa, Vahiguru ji ki fateh! Sadh Sangat Jio, Just received this from Jeevan Deol; i had cc'd him in on the email i sent to the British Library. Now perhaps it is time to start phoning them and telling them that you are personally aware that the prominent Jeevan Deol has, to your knowledge, proactively informed the British Library this is NOT appropriate. Vahiguru ji ka khalsa, Vahiguru ji ki fateh! ---------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Jagroop Singhji, Waheguru ji ka Khalsa, Waheguru ji ki Fateh. Thank you for sending me your email. Although I learnt of this situation earlier today via email. I am not connected with the running of the British Library or its displays, and was not consulted about the propriety of displaying a Sri Guru Granth Sahib manuscript. Had I been consulted, I would obviously have advised against putting a manuscript of Sri Guru Granth Sahibji on display for precisely the reasons you have lain out. I have in fact raised such concerns when other Sikh displays have been put together, for example in Washington. I'm afraid that I have not seen the British Library display or the plans for it, so I have no first-hand knowledge of what it consists of. I was however very sad indeed to learn that a copy of Sri Guru Granth Sahibji may have been included in it in error. I did receive an email from the Library this afternoon asking about the manuscript, and informed them that is indeed a copy of Sri Guru Granth Sahibji and should not therefore be on display. Do keep in touch with the British Library on this, as I am certain that they will be responsive to Sikh concerns and would certainly not have intended to cause offence. Yours, Jeevan S. Deol

Vahiguru ji ka khalsa, Vahiguru ji ki fateh! Sadh Sangat jio, Just sent, via Vahiguru's Beant Kirpa, the below-pasted email to the Library contacts given earlier by a Veer ji. The focus should, in my limited opinion, be upon 'accountability' e.g. who was approached, what they said etc. Vahiguru ji ka khalsa, Vahiguru ji ki fateh! ------------------------------------------------------------ Dear All, I am writing to you with a sense of absolute disgust, however I am aware that you may be wholly ignorant as to why I feel disgusted. Please let me offer the following explanation. Siree Guru Granth Sahib Ji, which is the Supreme Spiritual Authority so far as millions of Sikhs the world-over are concerned, is ALWAYS expected to be treated with a great amount of respect i.e. the place where It resides is sanctified and, for instance, the consumption and/or presence of alcohol, meat and other substances is not allowed. Moreover, when a Sikh catches sight of their Siree Guru Sahib Ji, they prostrate and touch their forehead to the ground in humility and with a sense of the most deepst respect and submission.I am trying to give you an impression of the mindset which is an intrinsic nature of the Sikh towards his.her Siree Guru Sahib Ji. Needless to say, it is not considered merely as a 'book' made up of 'pages'. So as you can probably imagine, when I came to know that the British Library is intending to 'display' my Siree Guru Sahib Ji as though It were some kind of 'exhibit' or 'object' behind a 'glass window' for those curious to look at it, you can imagine my absolute disgust. The bottom line is that though your intentions are seem positive, you are unknowingly overlooking some MAJOR issues; namely, the fact that you will be COMPLETELY UNABLE to adequately and appropriately ensure that Siree Guru Sahib Ji is handled, placed and approached in a respectful manner...this will be IMPOSSIBLE to do in a Museum space. For instance, how will you ensure that those who enter the space/room that Siree Guru Sahib Ji is located will remove their shoes and cover their heads? Will you be telling EVERY visitor to ensure they are not carrying alcohol, cigareetes etc.? Will you have a Sikh attendant who will be able to carry out the neccesary recitations which take place throughout the day wherever Siree Guru Granth Sahib Ji is located? Please inform me via a written letter (and supplemented by an email) as to how you wish to resolve this; alongside ofcourse committing to NOT going forward with these insensitive plans. Also could you provide the following: A list of the 'Sikh organisations and individuals' you have consulted regarding this Anglo-Sikh Heritage Internet Trail (which I think is an amazing project ASIDE from the issue I write to you concerning). Please send this email to Gurmukh Singh (who I have also cc'd re: this email) for his information - he is the Secretary of the BSCF (British Sikh Consultative Forum) which in my opinion is the best example of a truly 'consultative' and 'representative' UK-wide Sikh voice; I say this because many Sikh organisations are affiliated to it. I await your speedy reply.

Vahiguru ji ka khalsa, Vahiguru ji ki fateh! Sadh Sangat Jio, i have a Nokia 7610 (which is based upon the Series 60 Symbian Platform). Does anyone know if a complete version of Siree Guru Granth Sahib Ji is available to download (as a readable file). I'm already aware that SikhiToThe Max are working on a PDA file...but was wondering whether anyone out there is working on a version for smartphones which many of the youth either have or will be buying as their next phones. Thanks in advance. Vahiguru ji ka khalsa, Vahiguru ji ki fateh!

Vahiguru ji ka khalsa, Vahiguru ji ki fateh! A flowing Dhara would be even better... ((:-)>> Vahiguru ji ka khalsa, Vahiguru ji ki fateh!

Vahiguru ji ka khalsa, Vahiguru ji ki fateh! Dear Veer/Bhain 'japmans' ji, Some very constructive thoughts there. So, will Admin/Mods be able to 'moderate' these new threads or does the current infrastructure not allow them to moderate (i.e. proactively monitor) posts? Vahiguru ji ka khalsa, Vahiguru ji ki fateh!

Vahiguru ji ka khalsa, Vahiguru ji ki fateh! Sadh Sangat Jio, The 'Where were the nihungs in 1984?' thread (http://forums.waheguroo.com/index.ppa?act=ST&f=14&t=1018) has just been closed. In one sense this is positive because the debate had indeed developed away from the initial issue which was regarding the presence/absence of 'nihungs' during the dark days of 1984. Sadly, not much worthwhile and insightful discussion was generated although it did give a glimpse into a very controversial issue...and the lack of adequate responses. However, i think it is quite sad that a major opportunity was missed on this forum - that is a chance for the 'uk nihungs' (as they are often referred to) to explain, in a loving and respectful environment, some of their views to their fellow Veer and Bhain jis. This is especially since they have attracted much attention, in many cases for the wrong reasons, on Sikhi internet forums worldwide. To their credit they insist that they are open to questioning, discussion, clarification etc. The key issues which were gradually raised, although off-topic, can be referred to in the following specific manner: > 'Nihungs' + Bhang > 'Nihungs' + Chatka > 'Nihungs' + 'Three Scriptures’ as Siree Guru Sahib Ji i humbly propose that Admin/Mods decide where these THREE NEW AND SEPERATE THREADS could be started and located so as to get the most relevant and focused discussions generated. These themes should also have stickies in the sense that, for instance, the 'Nihungs' + Chatka thread should not be based around the question: 'Sikhs should/s houldn't eat meat' but rather be a factual and intelligent discussion around 'the concept of Chatka and wider Sikh thought'. Likewise, The 'Nihungs' and 'Three Scriptures' as Siree Guru Sahib ji thread would not deal with 'authenticity of Dasam Granth' but rather 'when, how and who it was installed by, for what purposes and whether this was appropriate'. This would ensure that we do not undermine Siree Akaal Takht Sahib but as Sikhs ensure that Sikhiya is promoted...especially when drastically conflicting Parchaar is being thrust in front of 'inexperienced young Sikhs'. Although this is not a moderated forum (for better or for worse) i urge the Admin/Mods to keep an eye on these discussions and to keep the threads on-track. i do not mind doing 'brief digests' as the first posts within these three threads by collating the relevant posts from the 'Where were the Nihungs in 1984?' thread and clarifying the sub-issues which were raised; many of which remained unanswered. This should act as a kickstart and let the three new threads develop from the point at which they reached previously within the recently closed thread. Any thoughts? Thank you in advance. Vahiguru ji ka khalsa, Vahiguru ji ki fateh!

http://www.tapoban.org/phorum/read.ppa?f=1...i=15760&t=15760 Excerpt: "Sree Akali Kaur Singh jee’s Gurmat attitude was always focused on kindess and doing good for others. Because of his long stay at Sree Hazoor Sahib, he was very heavily affected by Nihang traditions. But after returning to Punjab and meeting the Singh Sabha, he turned away from the Nihang way of doing things. But a couple Nihang practices were permanently lodged in him. He had his own way of thinking to a large extent. Akali jee always read “Ik Oankaar” as “Aykee Oankaar.” I discussed this with him at length but he continued in this practice. Leaving these disagreements behind, I had so much love and respect for his Gurmat qualities, which will remain forever. He was four years younger than me, but left before me. He didn’t let my turn come. According to the vaak “Vaaree aapoo aapNee koi n bandhai dheer” p. 936, my turn to go to the hereafter is also nearby". Author: Bhai Sahib Bhai Randhir Singh

Vahiguru ji ka khalsa, Vahiguru ji ki fateh! Sadh Sangat Jio, Could i do a Benti for everyone to PLEASE keep on track i.e. the issues around Consumption of Bhang/Maas etc. Please only Post if you are adding something constructive otherwise this thread will become a hotpotch. Sorry if i have offended anyone with my words. Dear Veer/Bhain 'Guroodachela' ji, You wrote: 'Every that you quote from bhagat kabir's bani is good and I agree with what he said. But you have to understand that even in puratan janam sakhi's Akali Nihang Guroo Gobind Singh Jee strictly prohibited the consumption of meat if you are following the PATH OF PEACE AND NON-MARTIAL TRADITIONS such as the Udhasi and Nirmala Panths'. > Veer Ji, we come to the issue of puratan janam sakhis, literature etc. once again...i personally feel that it is hindering this debate - to the extent that both sides of the fence can easily be argued hence a stalemate situation occurs. However, what is worth discussing is this distinction between MARTIAL and NON-MARTIAL TRADITIONS...i.e. you went on to write: 'The Akali's on the other were have to eat meat. Guroo sahib didnt want to have a weak frightened and scared army that doesnt eat meat. YOUR FIGHTING WAR FOR GODSAKE! If you cant -- an animal to eat or eat flesh and blood of an animal how are you going to -- other humans. Common sense'. > Veer ji, i'm afraid that is not common-sense...to argue that one must -- animals and eat their flesh in order to have the composure of a Saint-Soldier is a seriously flawed argument. Are you saying that unless you murder animals, you will not b e able to physically DEFEND yourself and will inevitably get 'squeamish' at the sight of blood? Please expand upon the premise behind this point of yours in order to save me from assuming things and looking like a plonker (which i usually do!). :-) Also Veer ji, please pick up on the other central points from my previous post. It may be better to do that before we get into the 'we must --/eat animals to be Saint Soldiers' debate. On a sidenote, as someone who identifies themselves with the 'Akali Nihang Tradition', what do you think of Akali Koar Singh ji's major belief-reversal i.e. from Chatka'ing to Vegetarianism? Indeed, do you know if he did desist from eating Meat for the rest of his life and if so, was he excommunicated from the Buddha Dal/or whichever Dal he was with? i would find any information regarding this really interesting. Thank you in advance. Vahiguru ji ka khalsa, Vahiguru ji ki fateh!

Vahiguru ji ka khalsa, Vahiguru ji ki fateh! Veer/Bhain 'Guroodachela' ji, Thank you for replying. (Before i go on, it seems that several recent posts (not yours Veer/Bhain ji) have started to cause a shift in this thread: towards a cussing match basically. Can we KEEP THINGS RELEVANT. Thanks.) You wrote, in reply to Point 1: 'It has been this way since BEFORE Akali Guru Gobind Singh Jee. Panjwah Takht Hazoor Sahib has maintained the same tradititions since the first 5 guru's. Nothing has changed'. > So what you are saying is that it was not AFTER 10th Nanak Sahib Ji that the Dasam Granth was installed - it was before; in fact from 'since the first 5 guru's'. That's confusing...what i can't work out is how could the writings of 10th Nanak Sahib Ji have been around many years BEFORE he took birth - were they already installed before his birth? Perhaps i have misunderstood your response - please clarify. Also, you haven't FULLY responded to the question: namely, 'should the followers really override what Siree Guru Sahib Ji decided?' Please respond. You further wrote: 'Your Point 2 has already been answered in my last post... read carefully about what is stated about bhagat kabir jee'. (POINT 2 was - Keeping Point 1 in mind, if 'Hikayat' mentions the consumption of drugs, then this is not to be taken as fact. This is simply because Siree Guru Sahib Jee says, via Bhagat Kabir Sahib Jee, that we are to stay away from cannabis. The question is do the 'Akali Nihangs' not view the Word of Bhagats as equal to the rest of GurBani? In other words, do they have a 'two-tier respect' approach concerning Siree Guru Granth Sahib Jee? This question was in part raised earlier by a Veer but remains, somewhat conspicuously, unanswered > After re-reading your earlier response, i will now assume then that 'Akali Nihangs' certainly DO have a two-tier respect approach towards Gurbani - please correct me if you feel it is neccesary i.e. they do not feel the need to agree with Words uttered by Bhagat Kabir Sahib Ji because it 'doesn't count' because he was NON-MARTIAL. Hence, these words do not carry much weight. I guess that implicitly, this is also your standpoint concerning those quite 'inconvenient' Words regarding that no-matter what, those who 'consume Cannabis will go to hell'...nonetheless, let's move-on unless you wish to clarify. Secondly, it is your primary explanation regarding Point 2 that is perhaps 'warped'. You use this Quote: ‘Oh Kabir, he who kills creatures with FORCE and they who call it HALAAL. When in the court of the COMPASSIONATE, ACCOUNT is asked for [doing Halal], then who will present himself [for this ACCOUNT]?’ (‘Adi Guru Durbar, Salok Kabir, Pa.1375) Clearly, the emphasis is upon FORCE and labelling it as PURE/LAWFUL (the literal meaning of Halaal) when killing an animal for consumption i.e. where is the COMPASSION / the lawfulness / the PURITY in such an act that is labelled Halaal? As to ACCOUNT for this; how can it indeed be argued. But as we shall see, you have attempted to argue such a hapless ACCOUNT... You wrote that: 'Whereas Chatka eaters make a DISTINCTION between ‘Halal’/’Kuttah’ (slaughtered the Muslim way) and ‘Chatka’ (killed with a single blow), this is not the case with vegetarian Sikhs fanatics. These vegetarian groups see both kinds of meat as ONE, and go to many lengths attempting to convince people of their warped views'. > You have quite obviously gone-off on a comp lete tangent regarding Bhagat Kabir Sahib Ji's Words (which i see as TOTALLY IMPORTANT/RELEVANT/APPLICABLE). In fact, you have elaborated regarding slaughter methods which for the purposes of discussing this quote, are totally irrelevant. i simply don't understand how you took such an import form those Words! What have methods got to do with this? The rest of what you have provided, which i can only assume you regard as solid proof (as opposed to circumstantial), is nothing but secondary/third source material which does not stand-up when applied to the ETERNAL TOUCHSTONE of Gurbani. Your reliance upon such material is akin to 'Sikhs', in two hundred years time, looking back upon today's era and deciding 'that was the real Sikhi' i.e. caste-based marriages, cutting of Kesh, consumption of alcohol...'oh, what a Golden Era' is what such Sikhs may say, as they try to promote their particular brand of Sikhi amongst the 'Victorian vegetarian fanatics' of the future. All i can say is that it seems that certain people find it hard to accept that the misl and Ranjit Singh periods were perhaps not as rosy, as far as Gurmat practice is concerned, as we would like to believe...but i digress. You wrote: 'Your point three makes no sense...' Veer/Bhain ji, in what 'sense' does it not 'make sense'? The thrust was: 'Are we saying that the Khalsa Akaal Purakh Ki Fauj, created complete by Siree Guru Gobind Singh Sahib Jee through Vahiguru's Beant Shakti, were lacking mental strength, physical prowess etc. and needed a 'drug-induced' boost?' Well, did they need such a boost? Also, can i request that at some point we go on to discuss the very valid points raised by Veer 'ms514' ji regarding: - 'The "evidence" provided keeps saying "Well, so and so said so and it is Puratan, so it must be true". One has only to peruse Sikh history on a cursory basis to understand tha t Puratan does not mean the truth or the way it should be (if this was true, than we would all be worshipping Durga idols as that is what is written in the Puratan granth Suraj Parkash by Kavi Santokh Singh)'. > i.e. are we really follows of 'historical sources' or Gurbani especially when we can find major inconsistencies in Puraatan / Rehitnama materials? - 'As for the Snatanis being some body who is completely the opposite to the Tat Khalsa Singh Sabha, you might do well to check the preface the Panthic Rehat Maryada, which explicitly mentions two Snatani groups - the Nirmalas and the Buddha Dal - as groups that participated in the drafting process. You may see that here: Perhaps the first thing you should do is ask the SGPC to remove the Buddha Dal's name from that list or issue a clarification. Otherwise, it seems that the Buddha Dal supported the move of that Rehat Maryada'. > i.e. Was Buddha Dal 'so majorly' excluded from the Panth, and so set against the terrible Victorian-inspired and prudish 'Tat Khalsa Singh Sabias'...and in such a polarised manner? Thanks in advance Veer/Bhain ji. Vahiguru ji ka khalsa, Vahiguru ji ki fateh!

Vahiguru ji ka khalsa, Vahiguru ji ki fateh! Veer/Bhain 'GurooDaChela' ji, It is Guru Sahib Di Kirpa that you have rejoined this thread. Please, if you are able to, could you specifically address the points/questions previously raised and then perhaps we could address the 'extra' issues raised by your latest response. i think that would be the most logical and useful way to proceed. (Veer/Bhain 'MS514' ji has already reminded us of Point 3). Those points were: >>>>>>>>>>> POINT 1 - Without getting into the authenticity of Dasam Granth, EVERYONE accepts that it was never personally ordained as Guru by Siree Guru Gobind Singh Sahib Jee. It was apparently the 'Akali Nihangs' (the 'followers') who placed it upon such a pedestal, along with 'Sarbloh Granth', directly alongside Siree Guru Granth Sahib Jee. This is the 'Akali Nihangs' own admission. Ask yourself since when should the cart decide where the horse should lead it! i.e. the followers decide and overide what their leader ordains? POINT 2 - Keeping Point 1 in mind, if 'Hikayat' mentions the consumption of drugs, then this is not to be taken as fact. This is simply because Siree Guru Sahib Jee says, via Bhagat Kabir Sahib Jee, that we are to stay away from cannabis. The question is do the 'Akali Nihangs' not view the Word of Bhagats as equal to the rest of GurBani? In other words, do they have a 'two-tier respect' approach concerning Siree Guru Granth Sahib Jee? This question was in part raised earlier by a Veer but remains, somewhat conspicuously, un answered. POINT 3 - It must be remembered that cannabis' active ingredient is THC which operates upon a psycho-active level i.e. alters the way we perceive, feel and react to sensory stimulation. To argue that Siree Guru Sahib Jee ordained that such a state of mind was neccesary for the Khalsa, above and beyond the Beant Power of Naam, is in my opinion sheer ignorance or stupidity and is borne out of a complete lack of faith in GurSikhi. Are we saying that the Khalsa Akaal Purakh Ki Fauj, created complete by Siree Guru Gobind Singh Sahib Jee through Vahiguru's Beant Shakti, were lacking mental strength, physical prowess etc. and needed a 'drug-induced' boost? ADDITIONAL QUESTION - Out of interest, in the 'Hikayat' the following lines appear: `Oh, Saki, give me the cup full of green liquid, `So that I may keep the secret enshroud.(178) `Oh Saki! Give me the greenish wine of Europe, `Which I may need on the day of war.(179)(10) Why is the Nasha referred to as 'the greenish wine of Europe'? >>>>>>>>>>> Thank you in advance Veer/Bhain Ji. Vahiguru ji ka khalsa, Vahiguru ji ki fateh!

Vahiguru ji ka khalsa, Vahiguru ji ki fateh! Sadh Sangat Jio, Many 'Muslims', who like nothing better than proving themselves superior, claim that they have the most pristine Moneotheistic bliefs i.e. belief in One Unified Godhead/Tauhid. If they tell you that 'Sikhs stole it', ask them about Christianity and Judaism... No doubt they will claim these books as thier own which is fair enough - the religions have shared history/heritage etc. However, before even the advent of Judaism, Zoroastarianism (which originates from present day Iran) had a belief in One Being/God...and even a belief in an 'opposing force' i.e. a devil. Therefore for ANYONE to argue that they have a copyright or even patent regarding Monotheistic beliefs is silly and a serious detriment to their own Spirituality. Vahiguru ji ka khalsa, Vahiguru ji ki fateh!

Vahiguru ji ka khalsa, Vahiguru ji ki fateh! Sadh Sangat Jio, Was anyone able to post a msg on Sikh Awareness regarding this thread? Perhaps if anyone is a member of the 'Shastarvidya E-group' they could also post a msg there. It seems a shame for this thread to end completely unresolved... Thanks. Vahiguru ji ka khalsa, Vahiguru ji ki fateh!

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