hawk13

A big issue is coming up of copy of durbar shaib in sangrur. But in vellore in karnatka temple with same desigh is being built in it was in news in 2005 apart from it samples of plants of dukhbhanji ber and other places were taken and sent to reasearch labourities it was found that it had healing powers this was done by hindu scientists in 2004 as per hindustan times reports although i do not have such old reports. Even samples of water of the sarovar was taken sent for reasearch with the knowldge of SGPC these thieves were given siropas and sri shaib by the SGPC. It is bad on part of mastuana committee to do such a thing the sikhs should resolve this issuse with consultations but sikhs shold take strong action if any nonsikh more beadbi. Apart from these in 2003-6 shivala bhiya temple in amritsar got same design which had reputation of antisikh activities and badal family donated gold forit. In another temple in jalandhar same design is being copied. Question is should sikhs demolish these strutures and punish badal and co for encouraging it.

Hello all...just wanted to introduce myself to the sangat. I have been reading your posts for about a year now..finally decided to join. My name is Jatinder and I am from the Chicago land area. I am 24 years old and a structural engineer. Recently got engaged and will be getting married May 2005. Well just wanted to say hi..look forward to reading more of your posts and hopefully taking part in the discussions.

Welcome and congrats dear brother wishing u most happy future life.

First sikhs cannot be fundamentlist. .can a religion... BE A FUNDAMENTALIST?

You are incorrect. No religion is fundamentalist. People are fundamentalist. A Sikh who tells others to avoid products with the word 'alcohol' is being fundamentalist.

We sikhs just have to follow DISPLINE LIKE ARMY

Discipline and fundamentalism are two completely different things. Discipline is following a set of rules (whether set by others or by oneself). This turns into fundamentalism when one fails to understand not the rules but why they are set. Saying 'alcohol' is bad without knowing why is fundamentalism.

Knowing that drinking alcohol in the form of ethanol-containing beverages because it leads to an imbalance in the state of mind, and therefore abstaining is discipline.

It is ur need to to know better about sikhi IAM NOT SHOUTING BUT PUTTING ACROSS MESSAGE OF UR SMALL KNOWLDGE

Shouting in this situation resolves nothing. All you do is make it more difficult to understand your message. This is something you should try to avoid as it can lead to misunderstanding.Fundamentlists r those who force other people to follow their line they all means even nonreligious people can do it as happened in China in 1969-72 period the socalled cultral revolution when red guard raised by Mao clashed with local people leading to 6 million deaths later army removed mao. Another example is of soviet union where stalin was was resonsible for 70 million deaths when kgb removed him only india gave shelter to his family in mubai still living. The excesses of taliban r nothing as compared to excesses commited by fanatic lleftists. After grand son of GREAT ASOKA WAS killed by hindu general and himself became king he got killed 80 lac buddhists and destroyed their religious places. But we know nothing of this kind during sikh rule period even during medival times. So sikh can never be fundamentlist.

In essence, I would state that fundamentalism is following the rules without interpretation or correct use of the rules.

http://www.thesundayindian.com/07062009/st...99&pageno=1

''Picking up the fight to save Shastar Vidya

Whether you like it mild (Gatka) or strong (Shastar Vidya), Sikh martial arts will floor you, and how!

The indomitable spirits of the lion-hearted Sikhs are known to have instilled fear into the hearts of many a soul. Their power even helped the nation retain its cultural and religious identity. The secret to their martial prowess was Shastar Vidya. When the Britishers finally managed to constrain the Sikh army in 1849, they immediately did all they could to dilute the tenacity of Shastar Vidya. Yet, in the following years, the art that re-emerged was a watered down version that came to be called Gatka, but there were people who quietly continued to practice Shastar Vidya in its original form…

Hardeep Singh Khalsa belongs to the oldest Gatka group in Amritsar. He says, “Many Sikh communities have changed the style of practicing Gatka. It used to be Shastar Vidya – hand-to-hand combat, basically fight to kill – but it’s now changed. Shastar means weapons and vidya – knowledge; Gatka was what it was called by the British. They saw that the Sikhs were fearless warriors who used guerrilla tactics. They changed a lot of things in our Indian culture and they made changes in Shastar Vidya too because in the army they didn’t want their officials to face such great fighters going at them. They made it look like a game so people start enjoying it. But it is still practiced in the old tradition in the older groups till now.” So the style that one learns depends on where he/she learns Gatka from. The milder version that was allowed to flourish under the British Raj has more practitioners and is thus more popular too. Shastar Vidya practitioners in UK, taught by Nihang Niddar Singh, believe that it is a myth that Gatka and Shastar Vidya are similar. “Gatka and Shastar Vidya are worlds apart,” asserts Nihang Teja Singh who has been learning Shastar Vidya for the past 5-6 years.

Practicing Shastar Vidya helps a person stay fit, as well as fearless and tranquil from within. Back in time, women too were proficient at Shastar Vidya and several bibis are believed to have fought shoulder to shoulder with men in the battlefields. Says Teja Singh, “My main aim was to just keep up the heritage because I realise that the art is dying out… This art has been there for many thousand years and it’s our responsibility to keep it going, to keep it alive.”

Wondering how difficult would this art be to master? “The basics are very easy to pick up but as you advance up the levels of Paenthra (footwork), it becomes more difficult. Once you’ve learnt the basics of different styles, it’s a matter of refining it, and that takes many many years,” says Niddar Singh. “We mainly use tiger step, Lord Shiva step, Hanuman step, bull step, crane, monkey, etc. Just as in Kung-fu, there are different kinds of steps,” explains Hardeep Singh Khalsa.

The similarities in Shastar Vidya and other martial arts lead many to wonder if they have common origins. “In Punjab it is believed to be the grand daddy of all marital arts. The Chinese and the Japanese believe that in the 5th or 6th century, Bodhidharma took the Indian martial arts over to China and Japan. In most of Punjab, especially among the Nihangs, the traditional belief is that it is from Taxila where, after it was plundered around 6 AD by the Huns, the Buddhists took over the art. Instead of crediting Bodhidharma the individual, there is a word ‘Bodhidharm’ in Punjab that translates into ‘Buddhist faith’.” While many proponents of the art also attribute its origins to Sikh gurus, Niddar Singh has a theory which he has developed after extensive research, “The art can be traced back to Shiva. From Shiva it came to the Pashupatis (master of animals, the cavemen) then to Kapalikas, then to Taxila where Kshatriyas trained in it, and from them to Yogis and Sikhs. Sikhs are just the latest custodians of this art.”

Niddar Singh recently demonstrated Shastar Vidya to masters of martial arts from China and Japan. “We showed the highest techniques, the Mahakal and Shiva Paenthra. The Chinese and Japanese from Jujitsu schools and Katori Shinto identified in the techniques, secret techniques that they themselves don’t teach anybody unless they’ve been with them for 40 odd years!”

“If the Chinese, Japanese and Europeans can appreciate the quality of our classical arts, there should be no reason why Indians can’t,” says Niddar Singh. The Sikhs speak of the exploits of their ancestors with a lot of pride. Shastar Vidya was at the heart of their power. It is up to our generation now to ensure that this ancient art form does not join the lost and the forgotten…

Anu Gulmohar ''

The real question is - being able to discriminate correctly - between Yudh Vidya and Khel (sport).

gatka is real yudh vidiya, and shastar vidiya is a khel

In sikh matial art not only ancient hindu martial art ,turkish, mogolish tactics were included but GURU GOBIND SINGH JI included his own tactics and made it most formidable.Greeks were known by their good cavalry while muslim with better tulwars and better archery overcame far superior hindu and rajput armies in battle of somnath1026, battle of tarain in1192 ,battle of talikota 1565, babar and rana sangha battle 1528. If hindus had better fighting styles muslim invaders could have been defaeted. It is true nintsu had 70% similarties with sikh martial art. another good martial art is shoto kan karate most simple but deadly one

tHIS IS NOT PROBLEM WITH SIKHI BUT WITH PERSONS WITH SMALL KNOWLDGE REHAT MARYADA IS NOT RITUAL IT IS DISCPLINE IF U R NOT FOLLOWING IT U R OUT OF IT, MILLIONS OF NON SIKHS TAKE LANGAR IN GURDWARAS IF BECAUSE OF THIS REHAT MARYADA IF WE HAVE TO BECOME FANATICS WE COULD NOT HAVE DONE IT. LERAN MORE ABOUT SIKHI BEFORE JUMPING TO ANY CONCLUSIONS JUST LIKE THAT EGOSTIC AUTHOR OF THAT ARTICLE. WHEN SOME COMMUNISTS WERE CRTICING SIKHI A SPESKER JUST TOLD THEM TO FEED JUST 50 PEOPLE IN THEIR OFFICE FROM THEIR PARTY FUND DAILY THEN CRTICISE SIKHI AND SIKHISM . THEY JUST VANISHED

wow. and people said ignorance is bliss. obviously not in your case. now i'll wait for your blood pressure to drop or for you to go to the toilet as its obvious something is wrong.

firstly, there is a difference between a fanatic and a fundamentalist. fanatics tend to know what they're on about, thats why they stick to their guns. fundamentalists tend to be stupid and have no real sense of reasoning, and also follow a bizarre logic that is very basic yet illogical to anyone with an ounce of sense.

secondly, you accuse me of jumping to conclusions. i gave clear examples and reasoning in my previous posts. i'm sure my explanation isnt always perfect and sometimes i dont get my point across. but its better than just shouting stuff because its what you believe. any proof that i jumped to conclusions? i also discredited this author at the top of the page. you see i have read some of his autobiography/novel and so know something about how he thinks. you on the other hand scream the first thing that comes into your head. now thats the difference between fanaticism and fundamentalism.

thirdly, what does this have to do with langar? i'm beginning to see the eratic nature of fundamentalism in your lots reasoning. as i said before, look around you, see what fundamentalism does to others.

also, you mention the rehat maryada. but arent there different maryada followed by different groups? who's right? who's wrong? what if someone grows up not following any rehat maryada but then chooses one? or those who go the other way? or those who follow bits and pieces?

do you see what i mean? fundamentalism looks at religion in a simplistic way and then tries to force reality to conform to that simple view. but the real world is not like that. if you think it is, your going to be in for a rude shock.

It is ur need to to know better about sikhi IAM NOT SHOUTING BUT PUTTING ACROSS MESSAGE OF UR SMALL KNOWLDGE THERE IS NO DIFFERENT REHAT MARYADA THERE IS ONE REHAT MARYADA BASED UPON THE REHATNAMAS AND DIRECTIONS GIVEN BY GURUS DO U KNOW THE THE MEANING OF REHATNAMAS THE ANSWER IS NO FIRST GO THRUGH THE RECORD MIND IT NO PERSONAL COMMENTS AND IT IS U WHO WILL NEED TO GO TO TOILET FREQUENTLY.The langar tradition u nothing about it is not just food it is symbol of equality it . Bhai PARLAD SINGH JI REHAT NAMA ,BHAI CHUPA SINGH REHATNAMA SAYS WITHOUT REHAT ONE CANNOT BE SIKH GURU JI BACCHAN REHAT PYARI MUGH KO SIKH PYARA NAHIN. u R LIKE A ARYA SAMAJI OR LEFTIST FANATIC sikhs can never be intolerant. Different groups follow their selfmade MARYADA NOT THE REAL REHAT MARYADA CONTAINED IN REHAT NAMA U HAVE NO KNOWLDGE THAT RECENTLY PUNJAB AND HIGH COURT HAS GIVEN LEGAL STATUS TO REHAT MARYADA R THE JUDGES FUNDAMENTLISTS.? EVEN KIRPAN BILL IS RECOGINITION OF REHAT MARYADA GO READ REHATNAMAS DO NO FOOL AROUND UR SELF THEN WRITE POSTS

before people start jumping up and down in excitement at the fact we are now 'fundamentalists', let me remind you that we are not the only religion that does this. in the middle east, the fundamentalism that appeared a few centuries ago proceeded to turn arabia from a rich intelligent set of empires into a fractured, ignorant, backwards collection of states ruled by leaders who kept their citizens ignorant and fundamentalist in order to secure their own positions of power (see the similarities to the panth today anyone?).

in america christian fundamentalism is forcing school kids to learn about 'intelligent design' and other stupid biblical theories rather than proper science. this will affect the country as you cant do much with a pile of stupid graduates. if the yanks dont sort that out they will end up like the arabs.

as for sikh fundamentalism, i think these people want the exclusivity of being sad enough to use their ignorance to not understand their religion but to still seem pious by making up rituals and theories based on a ignorant (or should i say basic?!) understanding of bani. if these people want to be the brahmins of sikhi, let them. but dont expect any of us to wash your feet - actually you'll get the treatment that our ancestors should have given to the hindu brahmins.

tHIS IS NOT PROBLEM WITH SIKHI BUT WITH PERSONS WITH SMALL KNOWLDGE REHAT MARYADA IS NOT RITUAL IT IS DISCPLINE IF U R NOT FOLLOWING IT U R OUT OF IT, MILLIONS OF NON SIKHS TAKE LANGAR IN GURDWARAS IF BECAUSE OF THIS REHAT MARYADA IF WE HAVE TO BECOME FANATICS WE COULD NOT HAVE DONE IT. LERAN MORE ABOUT SIKHI BEFORE JUMPING TO ANY CONCLUSIONS JUST LIKE THAT EGOSTIC AUTHOR OF THAT ARTICLE. WHEN SOME COMMUNISTS WERE CRTICING SIKHI A SPESKER JUST TOLD THEM TO FEED JUST 50 PEOPLE IN THEIR OFFICE FROM THEIR PARTY FUND DAILY THEN CRTICISE SIKHI AND SIKHISM . THEY JUST VANISHED

First sikhs cannot be fundamentlist how can u call someone fundamentalist without knowing the facts about sikhi that writer have big ego problem and thinks higher of Guru ji .can a religion which believes in SARBAT DA BHALLA AND HAD 4 DOORS OPEN FOR ALL CASTES AND RELIGION BE A FUNDAMENTALIST? Fact remains in punjab gurdwaras only 10 lac people feed on LANGAR daily. We sikhs just have to follow DISPLINE LIKE ARMY should we be callled fanatics most of the people who takes langar r non sikhs, Writer of the article is like the persons mentined by GURU JI KOOR RAJA KOOR PRAJA the GURU ji describes such people who for conviance and personal benefits does behave like the ruling class or majourity people we have rajputs offerring their women to mughals for petty gains author belongs to that category. The author misinterprets thT SIKHS WORSHIOPS LIVING GURU ACCORGING TO CHAUPA SINGH JI REHAT BINA NA SIKH KAHAYE . SO AUTHOR SHOULD LEARN SIKHI THEN WRITE SOMETHING HE SHOULD NOT MAKE FOOL OF HIMSELF,

It is greatest sin to believe in casteism when our gurus banned casteism. During the wedding of Guru Nanak Dev ji people from all castes and creeds joined in barat much to the annoyance of pandits. Although all Gurus belonged to khatri not the trading but the warrior one castes they abolished casteism and according to histroic accounts jat sikh of punjab r different from jats of haryana ,up and rajastan. Jats of punjabs were most untouchables themselves.Near durbar shaib Guru Arjun dev ji settled shoemakers( i will not use word chamar which is disgreaceful). Ranreta baba jiwan singh ji also belonged to backward class.The low castes should join and should believe in guru panth and guru granth.

Making peace among Punjabi is must. To uphold sikhi values. The caste based discrimination stoppage is BIG must. I feel sorry for the departed soul. Social fabric of Punjab should be more strong rather than weak if we want the state & sikhi to progress.

I wonder what stop Akali govt to make directive just like Maharashtra to force industry give first preference to local people say 80%

Also farmers in field should get local labour at high rate rather than getting Bihar’s or UP people employ. May be Chinese new machine operations for paddy sowing should only handle by local labour . It save Per hectare cost anyway for farmers.

Perhaps making machine operation direction written only in “punjabi” language may help local population .Also Reservation of ramgarhia, ravidassi in SGPC seats will be major boost for getting Punjabis together.

Also for people in general, having a licence weapons at home is must now. That will stop /discourage criminal elements from using such situations for general loot and attacks.

Perhaps every NRI should better cancel one India trip donate same money to his/her relative to let them buy licensed weapons. I guess it cost around 2-3 lakhs to get licence and buy one.

May vaheguru give peace in general in Punjab

A shotgun costs just 12000-17000 in punjab and ordance hand gun 76000 only. old second hand weapons imported ones r expensive one must buy new ones. I f bhiayas can buy despite being poor why sikhs should be fussy. A big bore rifle costs 47000 . not so expensive

MOD Edited

Under the indian constitution article25 -30 allows minority institution to keep the minority quota it applies to all minority institution be it chritain or muslims not only to sikhs one can get 50% seats in general quota and other half in minority quota under the law even management not even the courts can intervene and convert it into general quota after gurlleen kaur was found plucking eyebrows during medical examination she was denied admission but she promised not to do in future but management gave admmission to other student. she could have got admmission in general quota but she insisted on sikh quota. AFFIDAVIT DRAFTED BY MATTEWAL ON BEHALF OF SGPC CARRYING DISGRACE FUL COMMENTS ABOUT 9 GURUS NOT BEING KESHADHARIS CREATED THE WHOLE ISSUE SGPC DID NOT WITHDRAW THE AFFIDAVIT BUT AMENDED IT THIS WAS DONE UNDER BJP RSS INFLUNECE THUS COURT DECLARED THAT ANY ONE CAN FROM GENERAL PUBLIC CAN GIVE VIEWS IT WAS LAST SUBMISSION BY ATINDERPAL SINGH KHALSTANI WHICH TURNED THE TABLES THE SOCALLED SEHAJDHARI FEDERATION AND SGPC AND DGMC PEOPLE STARTED COMMENTS KHALSTANI JUMPS EVERYWHERE IT WAS THUNDEROUS FATEH BY ATINDER PAL SINH TO JUDGER WAHE GURU JI KA KHALSA WAHE GURU JI KI FATEH IAMM ATINDERPAL SINGH KHALASTANI INTRODUCES LIKE THIS. EVEN COTRIBUTION OF HIS LAWYER WAS NOT LESS SAME AS HE MADE SHORT SUMMARY. FURTHER THIS JUDGEMENT APPLIES TO SIKH INSTITUTIONS. FURTHER COMMENTS OF JUDGE J S KHER PROUD TO BE BORN IN SIKH FAMILY IN WRTTEN JUDGEMENT IS BOLD STEP.

I don't know how to say this without being all PC so I am going to say it directly:

This rule is stupid!

I mean, if you're going to not let someone in based on their appearance (btw, doesn't that sound kind of racist?), then I hope those who commit sins (like drinking) aren't allowed in as well. Also, if a Sikh doesn't pray then that Sikh shouldn't be allowed to go to this school either.

The point I am trying to make is this:

It is easy to pick and choose what is acceptable and what is not acceptable as long it doesn't affect you.

This is why Sikhi never grow and people will continue viewing Sikhi in a wrong way. We need to have leaders who actually have a brain instead of pindus running our schools and gurdwaras. Don’t these leaders understand that this rule just push people away from Sikhi instead of bringing them in the panth?

no r immaterial sikhi is religion of conviction not convince see the SAKHI REHAT KI AND GURSHOBHA EVEN INTERACTING WITH SIRGUMS MAKES U TANKHIIAS THOSE ACCORDING TO BHAI NAND LAL JI DICTATED TO HIM BY DASMESH PITA JI THOSE WHO TRIMS OR CUTTS THE HAIR IS LIKE HAVING PHSYSICA; RELATIONS WITH THEIR DAUGHTERS NOTHING CAN BE EXTREME INJUCTIONS LIKE THIS PATIT WORD IS LESS HARSH GURU NANAK DEV JI AND GURU GOBIND SINGH USED WORDS SIRGUM MEANS HEADLESS PERSON.

This decision does seem harsh and does automatically wipeout 98% of the Sikh community, however Sikhi has never been about numbers.

We need good quality Sikhs!

Perhaps those now outcasted will feel motivated to be a part of the Panth. Well hopefully!

sister keeping kesh is first condition of sikhi see the full judgement in page 4 of this topic I have posted

High Court upholds SGPC decision on admissions to its institutions

'Religion can’t be changed as per convenience'

In a historical judgement, The Punjab and Haryana High court have concluded that kesh (unshorn hair)are an integral part of the Sikh faith and that basic tenets of a religion cannot be changed to suit some needs or with changes in time. A three-member division bench of Justice Jagdish Sikh, Justice Jasbir Singh and Justice A.K. Mittal have given this decision with regards to an admission case in SGPC instituition. Applicant Gurleen Kaur from Gurdaspur and others had claimed admission under the Sikh-quota at Sri Guru Ram Das Institute of Medical Sciences and Research, Amritsar. They had challenged Sikh Gurdwara Act in which it is stated that those who trim beard or thread their eye-brows are not Sikhs. They were not admiited to the course on the grounds that they were threading their brows and trimming their beards.

High Court upheld the SGPC Institute’s decision to not give admission in such cases to the claiming parties. The division bench in its 154 page judgement said that it was not a question of debate but a matter of faith. Religion cannot be changed as per one’s convenience or with changing times. It said that everyone in the Sikh faith unanimously agrees to the fact that kesh are integral part of the Sikh faith and this cannot be damaged by citing modernity.

It states that Guru Granth Sahib does not define an Amritdhari, Sehajdhari or Patit Sikhs. Guru Granth Sahib teaches spirituality and morality. And Sikh history, institutions and intellectuals are all unison on the fact that unshorn hair are integral part of the faith.

what do u think about it?

have u ever thread ur brows or ur beard?

SEE THE JUDGEMENT THEN MAKE COMMENT FIRSTLY THERE WAS NOT THE VIEW OF SGPC IS WAS SOLELY THE SHOW OF ATINDER PAL SINGH KHALSTANI HE GAVE SAME NAME IN COURT. AFTER HIS SUMMISIIONS COURT RESERVED THE RULING U SEE THE JUDGEMENT IN THIS THREAD I POSTED MANY DOWNLOADS THEN MAKE COMMENTS ATINDER PAL SINGH KHALSTANI WAS ASSISTED BY ADVOCATE BRIJINDER SINGH LOOMBA. PLESE WATCH THE JUDGEMENT IN PAGE 4 BEFORE MAKING UNWANTED COMMENTS OF UR SELF.

High Court upholds SGPC decision on admissions to its institutions

'Religion can’t be changed as per convenience'

In a historical judgement, The Punjab and Haryana High court have concluded that kesh (unshorn hair)are an integral part of the Sikh faith and that basic tenets of a religion cannot be changed to suit some needs or with changes in time. A three-member division bench of Justice Jagdish Sikh, Justice Jasbir Singh and Justice A.K. Mittal have given this decision with regards to an admission case in SGPC instituition. Applicant Gurleen Kaur from Gurdaspur and others had claimed admission under the Sikh-quota at Sri Guru Ram Das Institute of Medical Sciences and Research, Amritsar. They had challenged Sikh Gurdwara Act in which it is stated that those who trim beard or thread their eye-brows are not Sikhs. They were not admiited to the course on the grounds that they were threading their brows and trimming their beards.

High Court upheld the SGPC Institute’s decision to not give admission in such cases to the claiming parties. The division bench in its 154 page judgement said that it was not a question of debate but a matter of faith. Religion cannot be changed as per one’s convenience or with changing times. It said that everyone in the Sikh faith unanimously agrees to the fact that kesh are integral part of the Sikh faith and this cannot be damaged by citing modernity.

It states that Guru Granth Sahib does not define an Amritdhari, Sehajdhari or Patit Sikhs. Guru Granth Sahib teaches spirituality and morality. And Sikh history, institutions and intellectuals are all unison on the fact that unshorn hair are integral part of the faith.

what do u think about it?

have u ever thread ur brows or ur beard?

SEE THE JUDGEMENT THEN MAKE COMMENT FIRSTLY THERE WAS NOT THE VIEW OF SGPC IS WAS SOLELY THE SHOW OF ATINDER PAL SINGH KHALSTANI HE GAVE SAME NAME IN COURT. AFTER HIS SUMMISIIONS COURT RESERVED THE RULING U SEE THE JUDGEMENT IN THIS THREAD I POSTED MANY DOWNLOADS THEN MAKE COMMENTS ATINDER PAL SINGH KHALSTANI WAS ASSISTED BY ADVOCATE BRIJINDER SINGH LOOMBA. PLESE WATCH THE JUDGEMENT IN PAGE 4 BEFORE MAKING UNWANTED COMMENTS OF UR SELF.

sORRY FOR THE LAST LINE DUE TO HURRY i DID NOT SEE UR POST FULLY PLEASE DO NOT TAKE IT PERSONALY AS IAM LITLE UNWELL I COULD NOT READ UR POST PROPERLY.

I'm very disappointed with high court being able to rule who is qualified as a sikh, its disgraceful and ok may be its only within this uni admission issue but in general I have been told that the high court are about to rule for only Amritdhari Sikhs to be classed as Sikhs... Although it may sound nice,I hope sangat realise the implications of this,

All this does is further cut the numbers of people seen as 'Sikhs'... ok I'm Amritdhari, but I feel uncomfortable about the reduction of numbers of people who will now qualify to be Sikhs... Let me clarify the implications of this...

Sikhs will have practically no exposure or power in policy-setting and will be given minority status, the large majority of the 25 million Sikhs across the world are not Amritdhari... therefore reducing 'qualified' Sikhs to being no more than a couple of million, and a couple of million people spread across the world have no influence whatsoever, fact, anybody who disputes this needs to look at politics and history and see if simply a couple of million of the 6,706,993,152 (approx) people in the world have any influence upon politics, due to the SGPC and other organisations who have no knowledge of politics whatsoever (other than trying to get votes) we would become an easy minority to oppress, revolutionary movements will be non-existent because we would have such little influence, if any.

So we can say bye bye to Sikh independence, Khalistan or anything in the form of an independent state... Why would any govt in the world acknowledge or grant a couple million people a seperate state or country punjab's population is only 24.3 million approx, and how many of these are 'qualified' Sikhs?... No where near enough to have any political influence, or be granted individual rights by anybodys means.... read up on past political revolutions and see how many have been succesful with the numbers of 'qualified' support being a couple of million (im being generous in my estimation, there may well be less Amritdhari Sikhs within Panjab, the vast majority are not Amritdhari)... NONE.

The implications in general, less rights, less influence, less exposure and NO independence, not even a faint chance on it if the case is we rule only Amritdhari Sikhs as Sikhs.

Within British and American constitutions we are an acknowledged religion, and we are accomodated for. Why is it that you don't see the high court being so invasive in regards to who is to be defined as a Hindu im pretty sure 90% of the Hindu population would no longer be Hindus....

I know the SGPC and Sikh Students Federation support the view that only Amritdhari Sikhs should be classed as Sikhs, but I think they do not have any solid foundation to support this view upon and I really question their knowledge of politics and what they are supporting all they are doing is giving us less of an influence and more of a chance of being politically oppressed.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa

Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

Please see the judgement then comment I have posted full judgement on page 4 of this general topic .I will POST FULL PROCEEDINGS OF THE COURT SOON AS IAM UNWELL THERE IS NO MENTION OF AMRIT DHARI SIKH BUT IN REHAT MARYADA THERE IS ONLY SIKH NOT SEHAJDHARI .

I have posted the orginal order downloaded from hc website in general topic category and given brief proceedinds plus will soon post all the proceedings these were watched by my friend sgpc and dgmc both played negative role any members can see the154 page order ,I have spent 6 hours while downloading just for knowldlge of my dear all members of this forum . I hope all members will avail it.

GUR FATEH AND CONGRATS TO ALL SINGHS

sorry due to net problem i am not able to send the attachment . I humbly request the admin and moderator to delete the attachment if it is not case file.as it is difficult to search the court website

showfile.pdfshowfile.pdfshowfile.pdfshowfile.pdfshowfile.pdf

showfile.pdfOn 30/5/2009 full bench of punjab and haryana high high court has ruled that unshorn hair is integral part of sikh religion in 154 page judgement , I wiill try to send it. After the submissions by Atinderpal singh khalstani on sikh religion and arorund 300 submissions by him on 23 march turned the table in favor of sikhs and he became the first leader use khalstan in his name in front of full bench and argued in gurmuki and got respect from judges.he was assisted by brijinder singh advocate.

It was repoted in HINDUSTAN TIMES CHANDIGARH EDITION DATED 28-5-2009

Should we have to take same step if they did not come to their senses by burning their houses or making taking away their youths as slaves

Yeh man, lets do that. That way we can show the world just what sort of bewakoofs we are! That will teach them. Bwaaaaahhhh!!!

You've got mental health problems mate.

It is the members of mob who had mental problems should we take beatings r the sikhs for getting bashedup by hooligans ? before making personal comments have u faced the mob pattern was the same as in1984 .IT IS NOT ME IT IS U WHO MAY BE MENTAL PROBLEMS IN SUCH SITUATIONS U HAD TO KILL OR GETS URSELF KIILED GO AND TELL THESE PEOPLE TO ACT REASONABLY SEE THEIR REACTIONS BE PRACTICAL U HAD TO TEACH THEM LESSONS FOR RIOTING EVEN 90% HINDUS HAVE TURNED AGAINIST THESE HOOLIGANS. FACE THE ANTISIKH MOB THEN POST HERE.

According to hindustan times a mob armed with guns,swords and other weapons went to village of Satwinder Singh one of the suspected killer village and asked about house the leaders of mob said the villagers they wanted to kill the family of satwinder singh as a revenge according to ht news but village elders engaged the leaders of mob and called the police some people were rounded up. The family members of satwinder singh although his identitiy is doubful has gone underground. Sikh rehat has prevented the sikhs from taking the extreme step other wise these people deserved the treatment given to them by THAKURS AND RAJPUTS IN UP. Should we have to take same step if they did not come to their senses by burning their houses or making taking away their youths as slaves mind it thakurs constitues just 12% of up population. Or does some sher singh rana people to come up to avenge the humilation to sikhswho killed phoolan devi and asserted it is the right of thakurs to exploit the women of dalits.It is sikhi which is saving these supporters of dera.

According to hindustan times a mob armed with guns,swords and other weapons went to village of Satwinder Singh one of the suspected killer village and asked about house the leaders of mob said the villagers they wanted to kill the family of satwinder singh as a revenge according to ht news but village elders engaged the leaders of mob and called the police some people were rounded up. The family members of satwinder singh although his identitiy is doubful has gone underground. Sikh rehat has prevented the sikhs from taking the extreme step other wise these people deserved the treatment given to them by THAKURS AND RAJPUTS IN UP. Should we have to take same step if they did not come to their senses by burning their houses or making taking away their youths as slaves mind it thakurs constitues just 12% of up population. Or does some sher singh rana people to come up to avenge the humilation to sikhswho killed phoolan devi and asserted it is the right of thakurs to exploit the women of dalits.It is sikhi which is saving these supporters of dera.

It is sad to see some people using slave and communal terms like chamar forthemselves these r terms given to them by pandas not the sikhs rather Guru Arjun Dev ji created a colony of shoemakers I will not use term chamar near durbar shaib who have shops still today none of them had joined the protests. GURDWARA MOVEMENT STARTED AS SOME LOW CASTE SIKHS AFTER TAKING AMRIT WANTED TO PAY RESPECT AT DURBAR SHAIB BUT MAHANTS BELONGING TO UDASI SECT REFUSED TO LET THEM IN IT WAS THE REAL SINGHS WHO BROUGHT THEM TO DURBAR SHAIB. UDASI MAHANTS USED TO BAN LOW CASTES IN GURDWARA IT WAS UPTO 1925 WHEN MAHANTS WERE UPROOTED THEY HELD A CONVENTION THEY PROMISED TO TAKE BACK GURDWARAS BACK EVEN IT MAY TAKE A CENTURY NOW MOST OF DEREDARS R FROM THE SAME BACKGROUND AND RELIGIOUS PRACTICES RESEMBLES OF MAHANT RITUALS. REHAT MARYADA IS CONCLUSION OF VARIOUS REHAT NAMAS I WILL POST THE REAL REHAT NAMAS SOON.SO DERA RUN EITHER BY BY NON SIKH PERSON OR ASOCALLED SIKH SAINTS RARELY CELEBRATE GURPURBS BUT CELEBRATE FAKE SANTS BITHDAY WITH NAGARKIRTANS NOW AND DO THE KATHA OF MAHABHARAT AND RAMAYAN NOT OF GURMATT. SO DERA CULTURE IS LIKE GANGRENE TO SIKH PANTH. EVEN FAKE SCHLORS R WORST.

Another anti sikh body and perhaps most dangerous is BHARAT VIKAS PARISHAD social action group of RSS their braches are in allover punjab and rural areas their cadre r retired civil and police officers plus senior retired judges they made their image by doing social work by distributing essentials gets patronage from administartion. some of their members r in fact devoted sikh officials who for the sake of social work have joined themtheir megazines protrayed DASAM PITA AS HINDU AND IS MISLEADING.

If you are going to hatemonger, at least get your facts right.

NAME: NAMDHARIS

REASONS:

twisting Gurbani – Actually, Namdhari are known for having an extremely high puratan standard of Shud Gurbani Ucharan. Sants such as Baba Jageet Singh Harkowal Vale and Baba Hari Singh Randhava Vale have high regard for Namdhari Samprada. Their puratan NITNEM is similar to the Nihangs, and they recite Akaal Ustat, Chandi di Vaar, Ugardanti etc. There is much we can learn from them in the field of Gurbani ucharan. Aside from the ‘neelai’ matter in Asa Di Vaar, which they back up via a saying recorded of 10th Master Sri Partap Suraj Prakash (rightly or wrongly – the point being the change was not intitiated by them – it was present amongst Nirmala thought already), I have not come across any other change in meanings. Regarding interpretation – anyone who has listened to kathha of 2 people from the same jathaa, let alone from different jathaas, know that it can vary between person/goup.

misguiding our Panjabi Brothers and Sisters into cultism – This is rubbish, Namdhari are not a conversion seeking group. They have a large self sustaining community which has been around for 150 years. They have their own take on history and prophecy (which they are born into), but outside of that they keep many valuable maryadai alive. They do not seek converts – they only tell their point of view – this makes them different from the aforementioned cults.

Using the True Gurbani Shabads to attract people – In case you missed a trick, as per Khalsa of old – the Namdhari grant respect to both Aad Guru and Dasam Guru Granth Sahib. These remain the nucleus of Namdhari parchaar – to their sangat! They are not interested in attracting people – they have no need to. Unlike mainstream Sikhs, Namdhari generally remain devote in their Sampyada, nearly all of them being amritdhari and keeping rehit. There numbers are not dwindling.

only to misguide them away from the Khalsa Panth – See above.

living "satgurus" have higher status than Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji – Yes this is a subject of contention. But in reality they treat their Guru as anyone would a Sant – as a teacher and guide – who gives guidance over life and ensures their rehit is strictly adhered too. It is unfortunate that this one difference separates what would otherwise be a highly pristine group in terms preserving Sikhi of old i.e. Gurus kirtan, simran, shudh ucharan, NITNEM etc. We hope and pray that if we keep our arms open, one day our Namdhari brothers will unite with us under the glory of Aad Guru Granth Sahib. If we keep separating and hating, instead of seeing their many goods, we will simply force them to hate us back and further evolve their movement when their prophecy does not manifest.

change of the 5 K's (no kirpan) – Actually, Baba Ram Singh is the one who preached all Singh to not remain unarmed after the British banned kirpans post 2nd Anglo-Sikh war. He himself carried a laathi and asked all other Singhs to do the same. He put the kirpan in the Kanga (as a symbol) and replaced the gatra with a woollen maala. This was only ever supposed to be a temporary measure – like when you have to take off your kirpan on a place (many Singhs without knowning it use the Namdari kanga (with kirpan in it) to somehow keep their 5 kakaar intact. Its simply a case of an un-reverted change. Its pathetic even mentioning it. Seva Panthi, Nirmalai and Udasin who formed the parchaarak, academic and sant group of the old Khalsa were not 5 kakaari, even though 10th Master started the Nirmala and seva panthi movement. Its pathetic to even mention this.

Indian Government fund this groups activities – This is the standard unchecked response by our uneducated youth today. Just because they may have seen a photo of a politician paying his respects to Baba Jagjeet Singh at Bhaini Sahib, its automatically assumed they are funded. They don’t need to be funded, they have an economically successful sangat all around the world as well as India – their land has been theirs when they were fighting the British and giving unparalleled shaheediyan during a time most Sikhs were broken down. Nonsense.

SO YOUR SAYING YES THEY DO BELEIVE LIVING SATGURU'S?

YES THEY HAVE SUBSITUTED THE KIRPAN (REAL SHASHTAR) FOR A MICKEY MOUSE KANGA WITH A TINY KIRPAN PRINTED ON IT?

I AGREE THE BABBAR AKALI MOVEMENT AGAINST THE BRITISH WAS LEAD BY THE NAMDHARIS, AND YES THEY GAVE MANY SHAHEEDIYAN, AND WENT TO KAAL PAANI AGAINST THE BRITISH. BUT THE TOPIC IS HERE ABOUT THE WRONG PARCHAR.

I FOR ONE WOULD BE WEARY OF ANY OF MY BROTHERS OR SISTERS GOING TO THESE PEOPLE.

YES THEY DO READ GURBANI BUT THE CONCEPT OF KHANDE BAATE THE AMRIT, GURU GOBIND SINGH JI MAHRAAJ INITIATED HAS BEEN CHANGED. HENCE THEY CAN NEVER BE KNOWN AS PART OF THE KHALSA.

YOU HAVE BASICALLY AGREED WITH EVERYTHING, YET MARKED IT AS A DISAGREEMENT?? WEIRD??

I AM CORRECTING U DO NOT CONFUSE BABBAR AKALI MOVEMENT WITH KUKA MOVEMENT.WHILE KUKAS ATTACKED MUSLIM BUTHERS AND ADOPTED HINDU RITUALS. THE BABBAR AKALI MOVEMENT WAS LED AND CONSISTED OF AMRITDHARI SIKHS ONLY AND MOST POWERFUL MOVEMENT TILL 1947 WHILE ARMED MOVEMENT LED BY BHAGAT SINGH ENDED SOON BUT THIS MOVEMENT CONTINUED TILL END ,SOME OF THEIR LEADERS LIKE BABU SANTA SINGH,KISHAN SINGH GARGHAJ WERE FROM GADAR MOVEMENT WHO DUE TO CHEATING BY LEFT MINDED GADARS AND DEMEANING ATTITUDE THEIR ARYA SMAJI LEADERS FORMED THEIR OWN ARMED GROUPS THEIR WAY OF FUNCTIONING WAS EXACTLY LIKE BABAR KHALSA INTERNATIONAL . THEIR LEADERS BANTA SINGH CREATED SUCH SCARE AMONG THE BRITHERS THAT ON MANY OCCASIONS RAIDING POLICE AND ARMY MEN FLED ON HEARING JUST JAIKARA OF THAT GREAT SINGH WHO ATTAINED SAHIDI WHILE FIGHTING FOR48 HOURS AND BRITISHERS WERE SO MUCH SCARED OF BANTA SINGH THAT THEY BURNED THE BUILDING AND DID NOT DARE TO MOVE INTO TILL MANY HOURS AND IT WAS BELIEVED THAT GREAT SINGH WAS CREAMATED BY HIS MEN.ANOTHER SINGH WAS SANTA SINGH SECOND WHEN MOST OF THE BABARS WERE DEAD THAT GREAT SOORMA DESETED HIS ARMY UNIT AND STARTED PUNSHISING THE PERSONS WHO ACTED INFORMERS AGAINIST BRITISHERS WHEN ARRESTED HE WAS SENT TO KALA PANI BUT HE ESCAPED HE WAS SENT TO KALA PANI 7 TIMES BUT EACH TIME HE ESCAPED. SANTA SINGH WAS THE ONLY PERSON WHO DID NOT BECOME STOOGE OF BRITHISHERS DURING KALA PANI AND NOTORIUS JAILER USED HAVE DREAMS OF BABA JI, HE ESCAPED AND KEEP ON KILLING BRITISH OFFICIALS AND IN 1940 HE WAS SURROUNDED AND HE FOUGHT LIKE A SOORMA AND KIILED 20 SOLDIERS WITH HIS DOUBLE BARREL SHOTGUN AND ATTAINED SAHIDI, DUE TO THIER COURAGE THE BRITHERS MADE SANTA BANTA JOKES WHICH UNFORTUNATLY ADOPTED BY CRAZY MAN KHUSWANT SINGH AND UNGRATEFUL HINDUS.

Ok, the news is true. The person doing the Ardaas recited it like that today. What's even worse is that i found out that it's about Dasam Granth Sahib, not just Ardaas. A person from the committee explained to me that some people have done research about it in the recent years and found out that whole Dasam Granth is copied from Hindu scriptures etc etc and that we should only read Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. I asked about Jaap Sahib and other banis. They said that they shouldn't be read either. None of the people there seemed to disagree with it! They said there was someone from India here lately who told them about this, and for some reason they are all convinced about it now.

It seemed a bit hopeless.. but any suggestions what i could do??

[/quote Respected sister what these selfstyled and fake scholars r doing is to wipe out Dasmesh Pita ji sikhi. Who gave them authority to discard Nitnem banis I will try to post the nature of presentations these fake people gave during the hearing of definition of sikh case in punjab and haryana high court from one of my friend who has wacthed the proceedings these people r wrost than badals. Reasearch can be done on histroic events or the writings cotradicting the gurmat. Some of these scholars r hargurjeet singh,kala afghana, joginder singh, harbhajan singh, inder singh gagga. nitnem banis, sarbloh granth, akal ustad, swwiyaas, jap shaib can not be and mmust not be allowed to be questioned by these fake sikhs.