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Tape 15 out of 81 Iknaa Hukmee Bakhsees Bhramgyanis stays within hakum. They within hakum give grace to people of bhram vidiya, naam di dat. Gyani Ji gave example of bhramgyani mahatama encounter with dacoit ( balmik). Mahatama's asked him, all these stealing and killing other people you seem to enjoy as your hobby. Does these things will help your par-lok (other world after death)? He went numb, and said I don't know. He tied mahatama with a rope and told him that i ll go ask my family this question. He went up to his father and asked, would you help me in pro-lok? His father told him, i ll go before you and then he asked his mother- she said no. Then he asked his wife and got the same answer. Wife replied, nobody told you to steal and kill people to make a living. When he got nobody helping him. He went in depression and asked himself- if no one is willing to help me that why i m killing people like this? Then he went back to mahatama's and told him- I will not do such things. Mahatama asked him why? He said- no one will help me in par-lok. Mahatama told him you shouldn't commit these sins for people who is not willing to help you in parlok. He said - Satbachan and then asked- what should i do ? Mahatama's gave him reverse mantar of ram- Mara Mara to meditate. Then he meditate for soo many years and he got bhramgyan. He then became quite popularly known as "Rishi Balmik" who predicted ramayan and wrote ramayan 10,000 years earlier than ramayan actual happened. Ik Hukmee Sadaa Bhavaa-ee-ah || Ones are those who were in sangat of hakumee(satguru, bhramgyani) but couldn't follow the bachans. Gyani ji gives example from mulai sakhi - Siri Guru Nanak Dev Nirankar went to mullai's pind to ask for his well being. Mullai didn't want to meet Guru Ji so he told his family to lie and tell guru ji i m not home. Guru Ji went once and they said he is not home then he send bhai mardana to enquire about him. Bhai mardan went twice and he got respond - mullai he is gone. Guru Ji said, ok if he is gone then he is gone. Snake came where mullai was hiding and bite him. He died instantly. Then his family took mullai body to Siri Guru Nanak Dev Ji and requested guru ji please forgive him and Guru Ji said- now he will be forgiven in 10th form. Gyani Ji gives another example of raja janak encounter with tapasvi who meditate on water. Raja Janak told him, he should do leave doing hard penances and adapt prema bhakti marg. This tapasavi, i promised God that i ll do this for 12 years. Raja Janak told him i ll give you fruit for 12 years of bhagti on water right now. This tapasavi didn't follow hakum and raja janak sighed and said- i guess you like water soo much, you will be crocodile for next thousands of thousands of years..dwapar yug will pass by and Siri Guru Nanak dev ji will give you mukhti in kalyug. One day when siri guru nanak dev ji did udasi in lanka. He was walking on water. Bhai mardana asked him, what you walking on Guru ji? Guru ji, it's 100 mile long mach(crocodile). When Guru Maharaj went close to his face. With Guru Maharaj blessing this mach start speaking and said- please do kirpa on me, i have been mach since treta yug. Guru Maharaj told him , don't worry your life span is only 8 pahir - 24 hours. I ll sit on you and do jaap(meditate), you should keep repeating after me. This crocodile did exactly what Guru Maharaj said and finally he realised his path and went straight to sach khand. Hukmai Andar Sabh Ko Within hakum of Satguru, bhramgyani mahapursh everyone lives. Gyani further gave example of Sant baba Sunder Singh Ji bhindranwale who were doing katha for 4 hours steady and no one moved. Upon enquiring how come sangat didnt move for 4 hours. He said in masti, after bhramgyan this whole parkriti(creation) is in bhramgyani's hand. Baahar Hukam Na Ko-Ay || No one is outside satguru's, bhramgyanis hakum. Gyani explains: how our senses are not in our control? However bhramgyani has controlled over his/her senses and others. Nanak Hukmai Jay Bujhai Person who understands hakum of satguru, bhramgyani. Person who can understand hakum- Nanak bhramgyani aap parmeshvar || Ta Ha-umai Kahai Na Ko-ay || Then person never talks in ego. To be continued:

tape 14 out of 81 In this tape, gyani talks about previous two pauris of japji sahib. How there is common misinterpertation done by people and in this tape gyani also talks about different levels interpertation of gurbani verses in these two pauriya's. Sochai Soch Na Houvi Jai Soche Lakh // || One can cleanse their body, lakh times (100,000 times) still body cannot be fully cleansed for forever. Gyani said there are three types of jagaiso(learners)- 1. Utam Jagiaso- They can catch spiritual/gurbani discourses very easily with their bibek buddhi. 2. Madham Jagaiso- Ones that need more explanation through examples. 3. Kaanisht Jagaiso- Ones that go out and misinterpet gurbani and take everything out of context and start criticising gyani's, saints by their own standards/matt. Like for example- See today in the katha- person talked about how bodily cleaness does not come even after million of attempts...then what's point of taking shower and why keep suchum? There is no point. Gyani ji futher said, Guru ji recited this pankiti " Sochai Soch Na Houvi Jai Soche Lakh // ||" by referring to those type of people who takes ishnan, keeping suchum(cleaness) concepts to an extreme. They don't meditate nor they do any self-service to humanity. They claim they have stayed above water for this many years, and took shower with this many gagars(buckets of water). This type of people taking things to extreme. Gyani said, suchum is needed however there is a need to be balance. People who goes to extreme and take care of suchmta all the time then if one ask them- how much patt or naam simran you have done? They have no answer. Gyani ji talks about Guru ji targetting such people in above pankiti, who goes to extreme in their suchmta like as if their whole life is based on suchmta(cleaniness)..having suchmta only in one's life is of no vail if person does not do naam simran. Things need to be balanced. Chupai Chup Na Hovaie , Jai Laya Liv tar || One even wants to stay queit(maun) in path of spirituality, one cannot acheive God. Above pankiti is also misinterpertated by some people. Some people who loves to chat all day question others- where in gurbani it says one should not chat?? They refer to above pankiti to justify their acts. Gyani ji added that one needs to speak but only when its needed. Being fully silent(mauni) is also not allowed in sikh dharam as well as chatting all day long is also discouraged in sikh dharam. Sikhs should avoid these extremes and do naam simran more. Bhukai Bhuk Na Utari Jai Banna Poriya Bar || Above pankiti is also misinterpeted people who loves to eat. Guru ji said, eat in moderation and be content. Guru gobind Singh Ji says in Sri Dasam Guru Granth: Re Man Aiso Kar Sanyasa Ban Se Sadan Sabh Kar Samjho Man Hi Mahaie Udasa | Saihes Sanayap Lakh Hoi Ta Ek Na Chalae Naal || Gyani explains, how people don't read books of wisdom by using the above quote to justify their lazy acts. Gyani said in this quote- guru ji said one needs to practise what they read otherwise one enters the circle of hypocrisy. Gyani added, that sanyap which are materialstic and superfical do not give any help at the end. However adopting Guru's sanyap(mat) helps this moral being. Hakum Hovan Akaar.. Gyani talks about - people who follow hakum becomes akaar(shape) of parmeshvar(Vahiguroo). Like for example- Once Guru Nanak Dev Ji said to sangat- Baba Budda Ji is my roop. Those people have understood hakum and they don't speak in ego. Once before Guru Nanak Dev Ji tested baba ji- and told him - baba ji it's amrit vela and baba ji replied no guru ji not yet , still night, this happened three times. Then Guru Nanak Dev Ji did this same test to Bhai Lehna Ji and told him- it's amrit vela and bhai lehna ji said- Sat Bachan. Bhai Lehna Ji followed Guru Ji full hakum then became 2nd Guru Nanak Dev Ji (Hakumi Akar) of parmesvar. Hukum Na Keeha Jaie | Gyani talks about - how satguru and bhramgyani's hakum secret cannot be know to the world because gurbani says- Bhramgyani ki gat Bhramgyani Janaie || Gyani further talks about how hard is to understand mahatama's(saints) bachan. We mortal people get confused over that bachan and talks about what kinda bachan is that? Because we judge them by our standards. Gyani also talks about that's how bhramgyanis nature not many can understand. Gyani shares an sakhi of mahapursh telling it's jagiaso to bow down to person like him by saying- here is rab, go matha taik to him. Jagaiso said, this cannot be rab(god). Mahapursh in their masti said, you missed an golden chance to meet God because for few moments..god himself came.. if you have followed the hakum you could have gotten the grace. Hakum Hovan Jeea Hukam milai vadi-aa-ee || An bhramgyani that follows hakum, whatever jee jant are there- being, animals, insects, dieties are controlled by his hakum. Gyani ji said the only difference between bhramgyani and god is only like Pot of water floating on a ocean(God). There is water in the pot and outside the pot. Only difference is samundar(ocean) does not have akar(shape) but pot(shape) can be seen. Once pot is broken (when bhramgyani leaves the body), water which was inside the pot merges with water outside and all around pot. Bhramgyani resides in Vahiguroo to that extent. Example- Baba Budda Ji at his end time before leaving his body merged with 6th master- Guru Hargobind Sahib that baba budda ji lost his existence and merge with Nirankari Jot. When mere mortal being like us stays in hakum of satguru, bhramgyani like- Nanak bhramgyani aap parmeshvar || then that person gets vaadiya as pankti talks about: Hukam milai vadi-aa-ee || Gyani talks about: we judge bhramgyani by body, but we don't look beyond body ie- sumandar anand da sagar inside (ocean of god's wisdom inside). Hukmee Utam Neech Hukam Likh Dukh Sukh Paa-ee-ah || Satguru, bhramgyani who follows Vahiguroo hakum, mere mortal like us who follow their hakum can become utam(higher) from neech(lower worms). Gyani further give example of this duplicate sikh name- kher khanawala sikh. He usually ate kheer for his living at gurdwara. He ate kheer for 6 months in gurdwara. Some gursikhs came up to him said - bhai sahib ji, you should also do some seva as well, over abusing langar is not good. This person said- i don't follow you guys, I follow only Guru Angad Dev Ji just like how these days people say- we only beleive in siri guru granth sahib..and we don't beleive in sant mahapursh. This kher khanwala sikh stayed in gurdwara for 6 months and ate loads of kheer. Once he came across with Sri Guru Angad Dev Ji. When he became aware of guru ji. He started showing fake nirmata(humility) and start doing drama. Guru Ji said- who is this person? Gursikhs narrated the whole story. He is been living here for 6 months..just ate kheer and slept that was his daily routine ..we advised him to do seva as well but he replied, i only have faith in guru angad dev ji and will follow his bachan. Guru Ji replied and said, what's there to follow my bachan now?. Your life has only 8 pahirs(24 hrs)after that you will die. This person became very worrisome and start begging guru ji for his well being. Guru Ji gave him hakum you want your well being..you should go to jungle- gather some woods, lit them with fire, and jump on fire..That's only way. This person went running around in jungle and gathered woods and lit an fire..start running around in circle of woods which were on fire and keep blaming gursikhs for his own stupidity. Then all of sudden, this theif came with lots of diamonds, jewelleries and asked him why you running in circles around the fire. He narrated the whole story to theif, theif said give me this bachan because i got people after me. An theif gave him all the treasure he stoled and was about to jump on fire and said take my treasure, i have committed enough sins i ll jump on fire.. i ll get grace from guru ji..this theif jumped on fire but fire went off. This theif was very touched by this incident and straight to khardhu sahib and went to guru ji while this kher khan wala sikh got caught by kingdom was given hang until death punishment. He died right 24 hours(8 pahir). This theif went to Guru ji and Guru ji said- you are dhan you followed my bachan. Guru ji hugged this theif and told him you have my grace but do 21 japji sahib as your nitneem. Guru Angad Dev ji gave him bhramgyan because he followed guru ji bachan. This theif became saint and did seva of parchar in Gurughar. Hukam Likh Dukh Sukh Paa-ee-ah. Person who had pain in his/her karam, by following hakum of satguru, bhramgyani one can attained sukh (peace). Jai Koi Bachan Kamvaie Santan Ka So Gurparsadi Teraie || By following bachan of bhramgyani mahapursh, with grace of true guru can across the wordly ocean. To be continued:

tape 13 out of 81 Sidhas said, we do understand that one needs to stay in the will of god (in raza of vahiguroo) but sidhas asked Siri Guru Nanak Dev Ji, we know paratama cannot be approachable, can you please answer how big is paratma's(God) hakum? Guru Ji smiled and answered, if we know vahiguroo's hakum then we know the secret of hakum. When we cannot find God's end then how can we find secret of hakum? Then Guru Ji further narrated: Hakume Hovan Akaar Hukum Na Keeha Jaie || Whatever akhars (shapes) are there like- mountains, ocean, stars, being, animals are there..they are all in fear. Bhai Vich Sabh Akaar Hai Nirbhau Har Jio Soi || With ongkar resosance akar took birth then came along rajo, tamo, satogun, 5 subtle elements, 5 elements, 25 sub elements. With God's will(hakum) all these akars came into existence. Ongkar Aad Kathni Anad | Out of God- ongkar(resosance) was born. Ongkar's aad is Vahiguroo. Vahiguroo is aad roop. Hakume Hovan Jeea Hukam milai vadi-aa-ee || By his command, whole being came into existence, By his command, glory and greatness are obtained. Hukmee Utam Neech Hukam Likh Dukh Sukh Paa-ee-ah || By his command, great person becomes low and low becomes great, by his command we obtain pain and pleasure. If one follow his command then even sad person can obtain full happiness. Iknaa Hukme Bakhsees Ik Hukmee Sadaa Bhavaa-ee-ah || Ones are those who stay within hakum and get grace of naam from Vahiguroo and Ones are those by his command, wander in reincarnations. Hukmai Andar Sabh Ko Baahar Hukam Na Ko-Ay || Whatever is happening is happening within his hakum(will) and nothing is out of hakum of Vahiguroo. Gyani added further- By staying in hakum, one gets peace of mind but it's very hard to accept the hakum. Gyani ji gave example- Once there was a mahatama, he used to live in his hut. One time mother came with his son and requested saint to advise him since stealing has became his habit. Her son was very clever and responded to mahatma everything is in his will and left off. Few weeks passed away. One day her son got caught by police and getting beaten up by police..The same saint who met him was walking by.. he called saint's name and begged him to save his life. Saint replied, you remember you said everything is in hakum upon my questioning your actions now you are getting beaten by police.. is this is not hakum? If you stay in this hakum you will repent your actions and will be good person one day. Guru ji says, by staying within hakum we get attached with hakumi(God) until then we are outside of the hakum(will) we are de-attached with God. Nanak Hukmai Jay Bujhai Ta Ha-umai Kahai Na Ko-ay || With Satguru grace, if person understand God's will then nobody will speak words of ego. Kabir Na Ho Kiya Na Karange Na Kar Sakae Sirar Jo Kuch Kiya So Har Kiya Bhaoye Kabir Kabir || To be continued:

tape 12 out of 81 Sidhas then asked: kiv sachi-aaraa ho-ee-ai kiv koorhai tutai paal. So how can you become truthful? And how can the veil of illusion be torn away? Guru ji replied, hukam rajaa-ee chalnaa naanak likhi-aa naal. Abide by will of god, hakum is written within oneself. Stay in will of god regardless of up and downs in life and hakum is naam jaap of god. Gursikhs asked same questions to Guru Nanak Dev Ji- kiv sachi-aaraa ho-ee-ai kiv koorhai tutai paal. So how can you become truthful? And how can the veil of illusion be torn away? Guru Ji replied to conclude first pauri of japji sahib, when person does seva in sahkham bhavna(desire to get something), person gets whatever wishes however mind does not get cleansed because person didn't do seva in nishkham bhavna (desireless self-service) and person didn't do nishkam naam simran (simran with no desire to get something in return). If one wishes to get their body/mind cleasned then one needs to adapt virtue nishkam bhavna (no desire to get something in return) during seva and naam simran. Chupai Chup Na Hovaie || Jai Lahae Liv tar || Gursikhs asked Guru Nanak Dev Ji, what can be done to over come the above pankiti. Guru ji replied, To overcome this, there are ways(sadhans)- 1. sam - observing and stopping your mind to bad acts and 2. dham - control your five senses- sight, smell, touch, hear, taste and also decrease your desires slowly and one day you will desires will be gone.. In gurmat, rehat maryada and naam simran helps ones to adapt sam and dham virtues in one's mind. Gyani ji further added: Bin Naamaie Virodh Sirar || Without naam, within in the physical body resistance takes birth. Which makes us to do bad acts. Bhukai Bhuk Na Utari Jai Banna Poriya Bar || Gursikhs asked Guru ji, what can be done to over come the above pankti? Guru ji replied, only ways to overcome this is bairaag (longing towards Vahiguroo) and santokh (contenment). When one does not have bairaag, santokh virtue in them, the fire/hunger(bhuk) of trishna (desires) does not get destroyed in one's mind. Bina Santokh Kou Rajaie Saupan Manaurakth Birthai Sab Kajaie || Saihes Sanayap Lakh Hoi Ta Ek Na Chalae Naal || Gursikhs further asked Guru ji, what can be done to over come the above pankti? Guru ji replied, only way to over come this is bibek buddhi - Bib (two) ek(oness), separating ignorance of one's existence from mind is called bibek. Bibek helps us to shift from two to one (duality to non-duality). Dvait Taie Ek Roop Hoi Gayeo || Atma and paratma reunion is called bibek buddhi. Bhul Gayeo Agyan Tai Apno Atma Roop Tahi Kio Pher Jan Dio Gyan Kahit Ka Bhup || Bibek Buddhi can only be found in sat sangat, sadh sangat. To be continued:

tape 11 out of 81 Sidhas asked Guru Ji- How can one get salvation? How can one breaks barrier between soul and bhram/paratama(god)? Can someone get salvation by being pure(bodily cleansing)? Guru Ji said, There is man di pavirta (cleansing of mind) and there is sirar di pavirtha (cleansing of body). Cleansing of body cannot be done fully never, because of its temporary nature of cleansing then going back to dirt. Sochai Soch Na Houvi Jai Soche Lakh // || One can cleanse their body, lakh times (100,000 times) still body cannot be fully cleansed for forever. Then Guru Ji further exclaimed: Chupai Chup Na Hovaie || Jai Laya Liv tar || One even wants to stay queit(maun) in path of spirituality, one cannot acheive God. In fact staying queit as penanace is against god's gift.. because with the tongue can meditate and sing devotional singing. Bhukai Bhuk Na Utari Jai Banna Poriya Bar || Even one gets all the kingdom of this world and other realms even then hungry persons hunger is not gone. Bhuk(hunger) of trishna(desires) is endless. Saihes Sanayap Lakh Hoi Ta Ek Na Chalae Naal || With many knowledge (thousands, millions)and cleverness taken from many books. At the time of death, these knowledges does not give any help. Gyani further explained by giving an example: There was clever man named aflato, he came to know that he will die in few days. He made 45 status of him fully resembling him. It was that magnificently made that nobody can find any difference between statue and actual body. When death came to him, on that day- he sleep with the statues replica's of him. When angel of death came to get him, they got confused because of 45 replica's of the same person. They went back to dharam raja and said - we can't really recnognize him since there are 46 his kinds there. Dharamraja, started laughing and said- you should start looking at each statues and start over complimenting them from 1 to 6 statues and then when you get to 7th statue of aflato, find faults in him by saying- nose is bit disfigured. Angel of death did what they were told to do..when they went up to 7th statue and start find faults in statue's nose..real afalto got up and said - who has guts to find faults in statues?. Angel of death found out who the real afalto was and told him we found you even you tried your best to hide from the death. Then Guru ji gave deep sermons on: Sochai Soch Na Houvi Jai Soche Lakh // || With cleansing of body, mind does not get cleansed and still affected by 5 vices- Lust, greed, pride, anger, attachment. If with only bodily cleansing, one can get salvation then frogs, fishes, water creatures would have controlled their mind and would have acheived salvation. Chupai Chup Na Hovaie || Even if one tries to keep complete silence, still it does not help with cleansing just like if volume on a tape played can be fully decreased to zero, but inside there is that tape(mind) still running. If one tries to silent their mind then one can automatically keep silence but if one tries to keep silence outwardly, mind will not get attuned to silence. Jai Lahae Liv tar || Even by remaining lovingly absorbed deep within being silent one cannot acheive him. Bhukai Bhuk Na Utari Jai Banna Poriya Bar || Even one gets all the kingdom of this world and other realms even then hungry persons hunger is not gone. Even if one ties himself with ropes of 5 senses forecefully and even if someone tries to keep barth(hunger strike) to control their mind. With only naam, bhuk(hunger of desires, vices) can only be negated. Saihes Sanayap Lakh Hoi Ta Ek Na Chalae Naal || To get mind concentration, one can follow many cleverness in books, listen to lectures and tied yourself with it even then one's mind cannot be controlled Gyani further explained by giving an example of raja paras nath. He was a ruler who had ruled full world. When full world was his control he went to his mother to get an blessing and thanked her because of your grace i am able to win and control small and large kingdoms of this world. His mother said, one kingdom you couldn't win. Raja asked which kingdom? She replied, Mann Raja Sultan. This really effected raja and he said, i shall win over mind as well. Raja went on mountains and start doing hard meditation (tapayasa) for many years. After soo many years when he couldn't win over his mind. He collected the wood, lit up the fire and jumped on the fire and died. So with sanayap(cleverness) mind cannot be conquered. To be continued:

what a joke...lol Classic example of over paranoidism.

wicked point. :T: :e:

Jagjit Singh, please first provide defination of shaheed? just want to know what you think about defination of shaheed? Read Jevani of Shahed badsah sri guru arjan dev ji, sri guru tegh bahadur ji ,sahibzadas, bhai mani singh and many shaheeds in time of Guru's to know personal traits of shaheed. Person who scarificed his/her life to - defend the humanity from oppressors. - defend the one's or other's dharam from oppressors. - in course of defending dharam, humanity be vigilant of not hurting innocent people even intentionaly. Here is an example: For me, singhs who killed narak khand vasi bibi indra were perfect shaheeds. Because they hit her directly with no innocent person involved in the fire. However, if you look at the acts of some of kharkho singhs who have killed police officers or whoever was responsible for operation blue star, riots, oppressition against Sikhs in dangerous operations such as - blowing bombs, using anti-aircraft gun, showering bullets with their ak47. In course of killing murders, thugs they carried such dangerous operations in very crowded public, markets places which killed lot of innocent by standers. For me, those "singhs" don't fit in the defination of "shaheed". straight up... i don't care if i start getting death threats via pm but i m being honest. They could have easily abort their dangerous operations by using their "bibek buddhi". But no they had to put their revenge first and did not thought of any chain reaction against innocent by standers in crowded places. This is what you call- unjustified force against oppressor. I don't think they fit in defination of shaheed/matyrdom which old singhs from guru maharaj time kissed.

Despite lot of propaganda spew against Nihangs, Damdami Taksal, Seva Panthis, Nirmale, Udasis by amritsar singh sabha and akj's in their literature. These sampardha's will always stay whether others like or not. Yes bad apples exist in all jatha's and sampardha's but that's being own short coming , main ideologies of these sampardha have only one aim is to Glorify panth of Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji. Guru's have blessed them, he can only destroy them in the will of God. Bhai Sahibs, Gyanis, Profs, self proclaim scholars wanna be etc have no power to cause even iota of damage. Spit on the moon, spit will come on your face. Also on a side note: Defination of Mahant- is care taker of dharamsala or dera. Mahant word meanings itself has no negative elements to it. Yes there are real mahants and fake mahants/pseduo just how there are fake/pseudo bhai sahibs, profs, sant, bhramgyanis. Thanks for contributing to the orginal thread. I had only intention in my mind when i started this thread which is to see how well khalistanis on here can answer simple questions.. so far best reply was gupt dasan dass post. Once again here are the rules of dharam yudh written by sri guru gobind singh ji: Admin may close this topic. If he wishes too. Topic Closed - We support Sikhi 100%. We do not support any jatha, samparda or group that goes against the principles of Sikhi and carries anti-Sikhi elements.

\ Singh 132, I am quite suprised you finds Gurbani itself 'dangerous'. You should translate Bhai Gurdas' varan more carefully since the word for each syllable of the mantr is said to be a means of 'remembering' each avatar from each yug. Guru Nanak Dev Ji is referred to as in a lineage of avatars in Gurbani, Sant Gurbachan Singh Bhindranwale accords to Guruji the status of avatar of Waheguru, possessing the recorded qualities of past avatars (very systematically). Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji - Avatar of Vishnu????? Not reallyy since Ram and Krishna are manifestations of Hari or Parbrahm (Bhagvad Gita and Adhyatam Ramayan). Each bring the appropriate 'yug dharma' or spiritual teachings of that age. Guru ji is thus the same in that he is a manifestation of God who has brought the teachings for kalyug. God is the same in all yugs. There are many gurbani quotations supporting this point. It is the position of samprdas, Sants, Taksal, etc. What perhaps is more 'dangerous' is to view Sri Guru Nanak dev ji as independent of God, and more like a prophet bringing the 'truth' that never before existed. This contradicts those quotations given before from previous yugs, it contradicts so much of Gurmat and is clearly an attempt to turn Sikhi into a more semitic tradition with 'revelation' 'prophethood' and a historically specific 'truth'. Likewise you would expect to find such narrations in janamsakhi literature or any of the historical narratives of the Panth. One light many forms. One truth, many forms depending on the needs of the contexts.

Diversity is ok but division is not i think. Anyway that's a different topic all together. Ok let me re-think how should i phrase it. I think we need to seek spiritual context of Gurmat from Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji, varan of bhai gurdas ji and socio-relegious context of Gurmat from Sri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji. We should put more emphasis to find Gurmat from Gurbani than rehit nama's. My understanding of Rehit Nama's- They are written in specific time/circumstances to handle specific time/circumstances. I don't think they can provide you solid Gurmat Sidhant of Sikhism

Haan ji that is true. However, leaving all these sampardha's jatha's aside. Because, they come more in outer layer of the panth, inner layer of Guru Khalsa Panth should be panch parvan, panch pardhan Gursikhs total of five selective gurmukhs/bhramgyanis representating each takht, coming together as one force/voice making decisions on some very important issues in the panth.

Please define, "Guru Di Mat/Gurmat"? What exactly is Guru Di Mat discussed in gurbani both from spiritual and socio-religious perspective??

Please, define Guru Khalsa Panth? My defination of Guru Khalsa Panth consist of jathedars, maryada of all panj takhts as one force/voice = Guru Khalsa Panth. What do you guys think? For those who don't know Panj Takhts. They are:

reason being, at the orginal takths it's a different expereince all together. Imagine, taking amrit from orginal place where amrit first took place(anand pur sahib) ..the energy the vibe...one can argue all you need is sri guru granth sahib is parkash and patt to be recitten. yes true but look at every vaishaki lot of sikhs from western countries..go in thousands to anandpur sahib and get intiated ..it's a very different expereince....so i heard from this gurmukh from montreal.....may be i m being too ritualistic for you.

take it from sri sachkhand hazoor sahib or sri anandpur sahib. It be best if you can take it from any one of orginal takths.

Singh132(balpreet Singh) sorry for late reply: Clearly not only does Gurbani state that those individuals in a different yug were 'gurmukh' (i.e. Waheguru) but as stated by the bhatt svayae, Parmatma took sargun avatar in previous yugs as Ram and Krishan but in Kalyug as Guru Nanak bringing forth yug dharma. This is the position held by Taksal, and nirmalay generally speaking. Hence Guru ji is avatar. Certain modern groups cannot accept that Guru ji was an avatar, since it suggests the truth predated his manifestation by linking to previous Hari avatars. Also on a side note: What do you have to say about Raja Janak who existed long time before Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji. Bhai Gurdas ji describes him as: source: http://www.searchgurbani.com/main.php?book...=10&pauri=5 Gurmukh (person who have their face towards Guru). Raja Janak's Guru was Asthavakat- 8 year old disable child who may be disabled in the eyes of chamars(people who judge others by skin, appearance) but his atma was merged with nirankar as one roop. By saying Satguru nanak dev ji is only and only true Guru out of all the guru's we had in all the yugs, one still has dvaish(partiality) which restricts one's mindset to accept other bhagats, bhramgyani also had in the past merge with that higher reality and became also nirankari jot. Having that kind of mindset is against Gurmat Advait Sidhant.

Khalsa fauji thanks for your reply and also thank you for sharing your kala afghana heretic site.

trying doing this: stand up..take your breath all the way to your sex chakra..in and out..do this three times..or if that's hard.. take a cold shower

Also khalsa fauji ji, The nirmale you slander..you should read sant baba sunder singh ji bhindranwale work on japji sahib under this thread and let's see which one you prefer one liner translations or nirmala/taksali adyatamik saints scholars like- sant baba sunder singh ji bhindranwale wok on sri japji sahib. Pm me for any questions you might have in course of reading japji sahib. Gurbani is not that easy to grasp as you may think: http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?showtopic=15451

Yes i read japji sahib..here is what gurbani quote you talking about: Gyani thakur singh ji says: aykaa maa-ee jugat vi-aa-ee tin chaylay parvaan. The One Divine when met with Mother(Maya)and it conceived and gave birth to the three gunas. Gyani ji says when par bhram(God) meets with maya, it bounds to an change(upadhi) and transcedents its attributes into Isher(Sargun roop). Maya is numb without Vahiguroo's jot. When Vahiguroo's jot enters Maya, with ongkar resosance it gives birth to three gunas as we talked about it at very beginning of japji sahib katha. ik sansaaree ik bhandaaree ik laa-ay deebaan. God created the Creator of the World(Bhrama) via Rajogun, then the Sustainer(Vishnu) was created via Satogun and then Destroyer(Shivji) was created via tamogun.

Tape 10 out of 81: Sidhas asked: there are two lakhsans(characteristics) of vahiguroo: Saroop Lakshans, tastathi lakshan. We wanted to have full knowledge about these characteristics and also if these two (characterstics) exist in your mantar? Guru Ji replied: Saroop lakshans(characteristics) are those which exist in vahiguroo forever. They are - Sat Chatan Ananda. Guru Ji said- Ik, Sat, Akaal Morat, Ajooni, Saihbhang. These attributes are there in vahiguroo forever and they are called saroop lakshan(characteristics). Tathasti Lakshans(characteristics) - There are other lakhsans(characteristics/attributes) which are visible depending on time.. they come and go. Guru Ji said - ongkar, Naam, karta purkh, nirbhau, nirvair all these attributes can be seen when vahiguroo creates this world. When this world is gone these attributes will not been seen. World is gone in this order- 1. First water destroy this earth- earth gets merged in to water. 2. Agni(fire/heat) destroy water..water gets merged in agni(fire). 3. Air destroys fire, fire gets merged with air. 4. Sky(ether) destroys air, air gets merged with sky. Hence, all these 5 astohol elements(water, fire, earth, sky, air) goes backwards gets dissolved in 5 subtle elements and these 5 subtles elements get dissolved in three gunas [(rajo(bhrama), sato(vishnu), tamo(shiv)] and three gunas gets dissolved in maya(thought) then maya gets dissolved in Vahiguroo. Sidhas were satisfied with this answer. Then Sidhas asked Guru Ji, why did you wrote Jap? Guru Ji replied, mantar which is japann jog (mantar which is worth meditating upon) which was given by akaal purkh to me. Jap is of three types: 1. Vachak- Recitten with tongue and can be heard by others. 2: Upas: Recitten with tongue also but less audible. 3. Manas- Meditation of Vahiguroo with mind..meditation through thought process. First stage of gursikh is Vachak. Gyani Ji gave example of how siriman 108 sant baba sunder singh ji maharaj bhindranwaley used to do japji sahib first in one hour, then do second japji sahib in half an hour, then do third japji sahib in 15 minuites, then do fourth japji sahib in 10 minutes, then fifth time do japji sahib in 5 minutes. In first stage, audible/dhuni gursikhs gets when reciting Vahiguroo loudly, gursikhs use that dhuni(tune) in their further stages and concentrate on that dhuni(tone). Then Guru ji gave further explanation using sidhas school of thought, jap is also means vaid. Vaid means gyan(knowledge)...just how vaid gives this being gyan(knowledge). In same way, meditating(jap) and conteplating on gurbani gives this being bhram gyan(knowledge of nirankar). Guru ji said, Jap(meditation) is also done by: 1. Baikri Bani- When one recites naam with javan(tongue), hout(lips), khaieyal(thoughts) that is called Baikari Bani. 2. Madhma Bani- When one recites naam in Kant(throat) without moving lips...just with the thoughts is called Madhma Bani. 3. Pasanti Bani- When one recites naam in hirda(heart). 4. Para Bani- When one recites naam in Nabhi(Navel) without moving tongue and with the thoughts. In this stage vahiguroo naam gets infused in rom rom of the body. Meditation goes in automatic mode. There is no need for concentration. Gurmukh Rom Rom Har Dhavaie || After 4th stage, one gets to very high stage. Where one can hear(jap-resonance,dhuni) with their surati in pretty much everything in this creation ie- walls, birds, leafs, animals, human being, even from realms (bhramands). Dharat Patal Akash Hai Meri Jindaeriye Sab Har Har Naam Dhavaiya Ram || It's amazing how jap(meditations) which starts from tongue of this beings, travels through all the stages within the body and outside the body ie- outside nature, realms. After going through all the stages. This being becomes bhramgyani and goes turiya avastha. Gyani ji further added- Siri Guru Amar Das Ji son.. used to meditate on madma bani(on throat/kant chakar) most of the time. Jap akhar has different meanings according to one's suitable stage/capacity. Chanting, Recitation, Meditation - meditations on different chakaras. Guru ji explained to sidhas on their query- aad sach means you were always truth. One can find out when satyug(age of truth) started one cannot find existence of you- Vahiguroo- Aad Sach. Jagud Sach- From the beginnning of all yugs you are truth. Habhi Sach: Vahiguroo is truth in the present with no change. Nanak Hosi bhi sach: Nanak says, vahiguroo will be always truth in future with no change. There are 3 kals (past, present, future). However Siri Guru Nanak Dev Ji used 4 kals. 1. Ad sach - which we dont have knowledge 2. Jugad Sach(past). 3. Hai Bhi Sach (present). 4. Hosi bhi sach(future) to explain. After hearing this, all of them fell off Guru Maharaj feet. Everyone chanted - Dhan Nanak Dev teri vadi kamaie. To be Continued:

tape 9 out of 81. Sidhas asked, why there was a need to add morat, mantar could have ended up at Ikongkar to Akaal? Guru ji replied, according to kaal vadi vishaikekh matt. They consider kaal(past, present,further/death) to be Akaaal. If moorat wouldn't be attached with akaal then this school of thought would have accused me to use their akhar and would have misinterpertated. According to vaikhyaran- Moraat can be also said as Amoorat be- free from morat and it's timeless. Kaal which they(vishaikekh matt) consider akaal(god) concepts get debunked when whole bhramand(realms) get destroyed. Siri guru gobind singh ji mentions in dasam guru granth: Kalan Ko Kaal, Maha Kalan Ko Kaal hai || Guru Ji, further said there was need for moorat/amorat because when vahiguroo creates subtle elements and still havent created 5 asthohol tats(elements). Point where god creates 5 subtle elements before 5 subtle elements and 5 asthohol elements have merged that point you guys have consider consider Akaal. That's why i have added Moraat/Amoorat because akaal is free from time, space, point, birth, death. Sidhas were satisfied and further asked, why there was a need of "Ajooni"?? Mantar should have ended from ikongkar to akaal morat? Guru ji replied, the reason there was need to add ajooni because according to kayka mat(school of thought) who consider moorat to be anu(molecules) and cannot be seen but yogis with their surati(higher consciousness) can see such molecules replicating from which whole universe is made. Guru ji said, even if such molecules are consider moorat then they still take birth because of their vary nature of replication. So if i would have ended up mantar until moorat then people would have been confused and more emphasis were drawn to moraat which according to kayak school of thought is molecule and according to other school of thoughts, they don't beleive in god they only beleive whole universe is made of molecules. Guru Ji said, that's why I had to add further and link moraat with ajooni so mantar stays firmly at vahiguroo not get carried away elsewhere. Sidhas were satisfied and further asked, why there was a need of "Saihbhangh"?? Mantar should have ended from ikongkar to saihbhangh? Guru ji replied, ajooni (does not take birth or die, or be in reincarnation/incarnation). Guru ji asked, do you know when maya took birth ? They said, no we don't. Guru ji said, maya did not take birth and is also ajanmi( does not take birth or die). That's why if mantar would have ended in ajoni then people might consider i have referred to maya as ajooni in this context of mantar since maya does not take birth. Maya takes nourishment(light) from Vahiguroo this is called partya parkash. However, Vahiguroo is sutae parkash- the actual source. Gyani ji gave example - Fans are running, Tubes are running are consider as partya parkash because they are taking parkash(light) from an electric current. When electric current is gone, tubes and fans are shut off. Light tubes itself cannot give light. Guru ji said, that's why i had to add- Saihbhangh because maya being ajoooni takes light from an source(God) but it's not source itself. Vahiguroo itself is sutya parkash. Vahiguroo does not need to take parkash from anybody but maya needs parkash. If Vahiguroo takes away its nourishment(light) given to maya then maya gets destroyed. Sidhas were satisfied with this answer but further inquired, Why have you added "Gur" Akhar after saihbhangh?? Guru ji replied, gur akhar means chaitan (sabh vayapakh- not existent yet existed everyone ). There are school of thoughts who considers sun, moon, stars, lightning as saihbhang because of their nature of satuya parkash since sun, moon gives light to this earth by itself. Their intellect is just limited to that and consider sun, moon, stars, lightining as god and start worshipping them as soraj devta, shakti devi being lightning and forgetten about these things are creations of akaal purkh they are just like maya who also gets light from vahiguroo. Vahiguroo whenever wishes can take nourishment back. To get rid of this doubt(duabta) and this duality of people. I had to use Gur Akhar which means Vahiguroo. Vahiguroo give nourishments to above all these things. Guru ji said further, i have finished up this mantar with Parsad because Gur akhar was not complete. Parsad means- anand, kirpa(grace). Only with grace(parsad) of true Guru - Knowledge of god can be acquired. Guru Ji then explained ik, went back to starting point since starting and ending akhars are extremely important in this mantar. Guru ji explained how end akhar of this mantar is linked with "ik" "ongkar". He said in this world there are people who misinterpert parsad - anand and start devaluing anand word by using it soo loosely- I felt anand after eating, after resting, after bhog (sexual intercourse). People have consider such things as anand start calling vishey and bhog acts as anand. And there you have yogis who considers spike of bliss when they take their surat(concentration) on upper realms as supreme bliss. But when their surat gets down that spike of bliss(anand). Hence, it's called yoga anand. That's why at starting i had to add ik - bhrama anand(supreme bliss) and also added ongkar to make it as first vak- Ikongkar because Vahiguroo is ik and one is also vahiguroo's maya. To avoid people drifting away towards maya i have added ongkar and also added- sat is because vahiguroo being truth in three kaals(Treh Kaal). At this point sidhas after listening to such an lengthy divine discourses and completely being numb to Guru ji responses to their challenges. Sidhas all fell at Guru Ji's feet. Dhan Siri Guru Nanak Dev To be continued:

tape 8 out of 81 Sidhas asked, why there was need for karta purkh, mantar could have ended up like ikongkar satnam. Guru ji replied, naam akhar can be also referred to deh dari in the society..everyone has a name...people would have abused mantar that was given by akaal purkh to me by attaching naam akhar to this mortal being. Gyani ji added to guru ji notion and gave modern time example to reinforce guru ji's point- how sarsaie waley used gurbani as their propaganda in gurbani there is mention of this tuk- Sant Sajan bhaie Sarsaie Poora Gur Taie Jani ||. Sarsia mat (school of thought) spread misinformation that saints only born in sarsaie(area) and in their mat. Guru ji said just to avoid confusion of people and telling this world that satnam i have recited it's not for any mortal being, it's an attribute belongs to Akaal Purkh and reinforce that point karta was added to the mantar because he is creator of this universe. Sidhas agreed with Guru ji and said now we understood but now please you tell us why there was a need to add purkh with karta? Guru ji said, if i were to say akhar karta then more emphasis could have put on karta(creator)- people could have interperted in various ways ie- creator of gold, creator of pots, creator of shastra.. then everyone would have used the word "i am karta" " i m a karta". .. these karta's (creation out of man made) are temporal...that's why i have used purkh (pooran/enlightner) so to avoid confusion and misinterperation of word karta which can be referred in the context of man made creation. Aeho Jag Sach Ki Hai Khotri Sachaie Ka Vich Vas || Wordly karta's(creators) for example if they made gold..creator is not in the gold however when we look at vahiguroo(creator of this universe).. he the creator exist in his creation as well. Sidhas were satisfied with guru ji's explanation, however they went further and said - if a person recites- Ikongkar satnaam kartapukh everyday, wouldn't that person can acheive salvation. Guru ji smiled and said- even meditation of ikongkar is enough to get bhramgyan..however, guru ji stressed on mantar had to be completed(sampuranta) according to akaal purkh hakum. Guru ji said, if i were to end the full mantar from ikongkar to karta purkh. There is Sankhia mat(school of thought) considers a mortal being (jev) to be Purkh. They would have used their means to misinterperate mantar and claimed that I have supported their school of thought. They consider mortal being jev who is made of 24 tat vadi(elements) - 5 gyan indrai's/5 senses, 5 karam indrai, 5 asthol (tat)elements, 5 sukhsaum(subtle) elements, man(mind), tridha , ahankar, mani tat and pardan is equal to 24 elements which human is made of. 25th element is jev atma(soul). They consider jev atma to be akaal purkh which is not correct. Jev atma is not paratma(supreme soul) because of antish karan(acculmations of thoughts, desires, karmas). Gyani further stressed, when jiv atma has to face death(kaal) and be in fear. Jiv atma(individualstic soul) screams in pain. Then how jev atma this mortal being can be purkh. A person who is feared cannot be purkh(paratma) because he is bhau(fear) not Nirbhau. Guru ji said, that's why i had to add Nirbhau after karta purkh because only god is free from fear. Sidhas were satisfied, and further asked why there was a need of addition of nirvair- Guru ji replied by giving example of harnakash. When he came in this world. He started claiming - Jalaie Harnakash, Thalie Harnakash (I am god), that i m not fear from anyone. People thought of him as a God however he didn't have all god's(sargun) attributes in him only he claimed he was nirbhau, Nirvair and that was not enough. Guru ji then gave another example of ravan. Even he claimed to be fearless(Nirbhau) by getting occult powers. These people on top of that, they start being rebellion against god's creation like for example- if someone didn't them worship they would be their enemy. Now if they were enemy, how could they have nirvair(without hate) attribute in them which is opposite to Vair(dushmani). Sidhas were satisfied with Guru ji explanation but asked mantar could have ended until Nirvair. Why there was need for "akaal" ?? Guru ji said, listen saints (sant/mahatamas) can have nirbhau/nirvair attributes because of high enlighten visions towards creation. Shastar Thikhan Kat Daraio Mannai Kino Rous || Meaning: If anyone chops saints body or kill them, they don't blame anyone. They say- This person came in will of god. They consider enemy as their owns. They consider creation as vahiguroo's creation. They don't have vair(rebellion nature) against anyone. However guru ji said, even saints, guru's have to go from this world. Death takes them. But there is a difference between holy person going and normal person going just how cat(death) treats her kitten ie- pick them up and nourish them nicely but with the same teeeth how she tears apart her haunt. Guru's/saints are nirvair but they are not akaal (timeless) because they have to go one day, even their physical being ( made of 5 main elements) has to face death. That's why i have written Akaal because free from death(kaal) can only be akaal purkh. To be continued:

tape- 7 out of 81. Guru ji explained: Adhakari anuband (Being who can read mool mantar and do seva of siri guru granth sahib). Satnam is adhakari anuband of ikongkar.. Guru ji explained a person who does not forget god 24 hours and does recitation of "Sat Nam" has a right(adhakari) to recite mool mantar. Adhkari has 4 characteristics, if these characteristics are not present then person is not adhkari/does not have right. 1. Bibek -Recnognizing reality- world is false, god was truth/is truth and will be truth, one that knows one self by negating ignorance is bibek.` 2. Vairaag- God itself is deattached(vairaagi) because there is no maya, in order for person to meet god. That person must also have vairaag - nirlaip from maya(free from materialstic/superfical things). 3. Khat Samti- sam(stoping mind to go all over the place), dham (control 5 senses), sharda (full faith) , samadan (shavdhan/be careful/sit in meditation free from laziness), upram (being turned off from wordly things and sit in meditation), pratikhsa (consider thrist, hunger, happiness, sorrowness as ONE, be in will of god) 4. Moksh Icha- Desire for jevan mukhti(salvation). Guru ji then explained, visha anuband is "Karta Purkh" after Sat Nam. Karta purkh is our visha anuband. Visha(purpose) of Mool mantar is bring jiv atma closer and united with Vahiguroo. Vichraie Melaie Parbhu Har Dhargaie Kai Bai Saiet Har Namio Mantar Dharanga Katae Humai Rog Nanak Satguru Tina Milaya Jina Dhuraie Paie Sanjog || Guru ji went on further and explained- Paryougan Anuband- Nirbhau and Nirvair is Paryuogan Anuband. Nirbhau state is free from birth and death and Nirvair state is reaching Atma. Guru ji said, accomplishing infinite happiness and parmanand(supreme bliss) is paryoagan anuband of mool mantar. Guru ji then explained - Sabhand Anuband- Akaaal morat and Ajooni Saihbhangh is sabhand anuband. Ajooni is free from reincarnations, Saihbhangh has `parkashak attributes. One can acquire such parkash(light) from vedas, granths. Saihbhangh is pirthpadak(knower of bhram attributes). Akaal is free from time, birth/death and Moorat is hasti is worth knowning is prithpad. Akaal Morat and Ajooni saihbhang are related with each other they are bhod and bhodak where Bhod which means attribute / Bhodak means name, pirthpadak and pirthpad. Guru ji then said to sidhas all these 4 anubands -1) - Adhakari Anuband 2. Visha Anubhand 3. Sabhand Anuband. 4. Paryougan Anuband that you received in the Sermon cannot be accomplished by Guru Di Kirpa(Grace of True Guru). Thus Mantar ends with "Gurparsad" (grace of true guru). Sidhas after listening to this sermons- said to guru ji we are not fully satisfied with this sermon. We still have doubts. Guru ji said - without hestitation ask any questions you have regarding this. Sidhas then told, all the mantars so far had 4 dosh in them . We are wondering if mantar you reciten (Ikongkar Satnam Karta Purkh Nirbhau Nirvair Akaal Morat Ajoni Saihbhang Gurparsad ||) also has 4 dosh( subtle errors) in it???. Guru ji said - no it does not have those 4 dosh( subtle errors) Gyani explained what those 4 dosh were: 1. Ativayapti dosh- dosh which has duality. 2. Abhayapti Dosh- Dosh has dual meaning of same word. 3. Asambhav Dosh- Asambhav Dosh means lacking of factual information, information seems completely impossible/untrue. 4. Guravta Dosh- It means something which has been over complimented(upma)/something blown out of proportion. Sidhas asked Guru ji again if these four things exist in your mantar? Guru ji said- these dosh are not present in the mantar. Sidhas then asked more questions to guru ji so they can find any subtle errors in guru ji mantar. Sidhas said, we do understand - Ik which is advait saroop(non-duality) and ongkar is parkashak of every being and god its in nirgun form. You wrote - "Satnam". According to our school of thought- mantar should have been completed until Ik ongkar Sat why there was a need to add Naam to make it Sat Naam? Sidhas asked this question to an intention to find 4 faults (dosh) in this and prove guru ji wrong and make guru ji our chela. Guru ji then replied, if i were to write Ikongkar Sat itself that would have been incomplete like for example if i were to say- this is sweet, this is sweet you will eventually ask me - what is sweet? similarly to make complete sense of mantar- I have added Naam because Naam is parsid(popular) in all the realms. Sat akhar is also used in different school of thought ie- nayak mat. Nayak Mat consider Sat to be only sky(ether) because it does not get ever destroyed and born out of tamogun. They also consider being to be Sat because of generations kept coming..that's how world kept surviving. Guru ji said- I wanted to use Sat to describe an attribute of God. But to avoid confusion and also this mat would have over-flattered themselves by telling that i have supported their school of thought by using sat and would have spread misinformation that sat means - sky and being. Ikgonkar is Sat and its Name is also Sat(truth) To be continued: