jaswinder singh

LOL ur n extreme singh yet ur DP is of a cartoon character out of madagascar! :O looool

every one including the guy u r refering to has right to is own pov.but the matter is are we

going for ghetto -isation of our community , what way do we think we can expand our faith?

our faith teaches to respect all ideologies yet we do not, our Gurus tell us we shuld discard

casteism and gendre discrimination , we do not ; what direction we are taking?

omg so many ways of not following the way our gurus taught us , still we are sikhs

first thing first Racial or any kind of discrimination is not allowed in sikhi tenets

Hence the commonity should not take any opposite stand on this count nor the parents

Next , the boy is yet to take amrit , the girl wants to convert to sikhi for the sake of

continuing relationship and the boy does not want to force his views on Girl, both

are taking a stand which should be appriciated by all .

why not go for the marriage , as your pov about each other is so understanding,

study the sikhi togather and then take amrit togather , or take time to learnabout

sikhi togather ,go for amrit togather and then get married take your own time to

find the right alternate

i feel you have the goodwishes of the sangat posting their views here

best wishes

TO run into married life one should be emotionally and financially strong , further look for

other compatibilities like thinking, family background, language etc if you both feel the same

way about so many things , only age shouldnot be the main issue

thanks

Brilliant post Singh

thanks for comments ,i always try to first give what gurmat & gurbani states about the question

then add own pov , so ideas are always Gurbani & rehat maryada , i only try to put before sangat

We shoulD really thank our great Guru Sahiban for giving us guidelines about a wonderful Way of Life

any way thanks for yr appriciation

FATEH

as per sikh rehat maryada anand karaj is performed between amritdhari boy & girl ; meaning you should have married an amritdhari girl,

in present case let her take amrit in theorthcoming Amrit sanchar , thereafter go for any kind of physical .further try to make difference between

gristi dharm and lust( kaam- which is overindulgence in sexand becoming slave of lust ) . our faith forbids us from overindulgence of all kinds

Answers to your questions

1) although intercaste marriage is allowed people feel sikhi just opened a door of tolerance between castes, but the gurus and great sikhs only married into their own castes, plus political/social structures we have are still caste based and we do discriminate per caste still till today, we got to many backwards pendos who can't remember anything about sarbat da pala but remember something which is thousands of years old, plus they have invented there own caste system jatts and tarkhans were never on top, brahmins were then khatris. Harsh punishment was given to the hill chiefs over caste which resulted in a great war, if maharaj wanted caste he would have givien the hill chiefs there caste and he would still have all of his 4 sons plus with the hill chiefs he could have over thrown the mughals. People assert this otherness and otherism almost a racism and negative skewed perceptions per caste, it effects us the guys who don't even believe in caste we abstain from relations with guys who believe too much into it almost carving out our own category or caste. People assert a form of pride or betterment to the social status plus the friend social circles that opens.

2) the parents have right over the choice of marriage simply because money is involved a girl from a low poor caste can marry a rich caste and basically gold digg then you have guys looking for suggamamas with the high castes, the boys parents intervene because they don't want any slag just taking their son and their money, plus house. Even though we haven't established respect between our differences of ancestory which do time to time effect our behaviour such as paag style, punjabi words, body language even friend + family circles.

3) parents bringing you into this world have done something for you which you can never pay back, even if you are a gursikh you can do benti you can't force them into anything they are still authoratitve over you grand gursikhs have had hindu mothers and fathers didn't stop them from respecting their parents. Since as a gursikh you spend alot of time around your parents and they know you well if you live your sikhi that can be enough from the difference it does in your life to invite them into the path otherwise you should respect the position of your parents and the choice you have and they have the freedom over all.

4) Amritdharis are humans as well they get lustful and attractive all the tv of everyone doing the jiggy jiggy is applying social pressure, humans by nature are made to reproduce it's a basic instinct just like eating, but we have ceremonies that make the place and time right such as after wedlock placing all the economic factors into place so each one can't cheat on the other. If you read chattrianpakhian you get an idea why sleeping around commiting adultery is bad.

Sorry friend, in the name of amswering the questions raised in my post , we are revolvin in circles without getting to the root cause ,

weall follow those teachings of the gurus we find paletable according to to our mind set folliw and ignore those which are not liked by us

,the youths seeing our hypocrisy tend to go their own way , so what i meant to say is , follow the teachings of the Gurus in letter & spirit

[ not selectively ]only then will we set example for the next gen , if we are not ready to shed caste system , why blame the great /gurus?

are we teaching this to our kids ? thet why blame them for what they feel about us ?

Even our Gurus never forced their views on their children then why should we ? why do we want a 20 - 25 y o to behave like zombie in

front of parents , why he cannot reason his pov? why the parents should not listen to valid reason ?that is ridiculous , two wrongs do not

add to one right , parents and children both have to rethink their attitude, albeit in the light of Gurmat , that would only solve the problem

i noted my response to 6 month old thread only 'cause the issue is always relevent , else the involved persons may have found out the solution

already

please do not agonise if my words look harsh , only think over it

fateh

/

I have been reading the responses, all going away from the problem, only trying to show holier than thou attitude

why not address the problem and surfing around :-

1 Is intercast marriage is allowed in Sikh faith ? yes , why then parents oppose it ? that is the big question .

2 Is bride & groom's consent is compulsory in nupital matters ? yes according to rehat maryada the Granthi before starting the Anand karaj proceedingsasks both Bride & groom to bow their head befor SGGS if they agree to the relation only then he proceeds further - then why parents become adamant on their choice only even when the person going into marriage does not agrees to ?

3 If parents are not following the tenets of Sikhi , should the offsprings not ask them to be on the right path ?

4 Is premarital sex allowed in our faith ? No it is not , sex outside wedlock is one of the five taboos in our faith , then as dscribed in many posts

why many amritdhari youngs indulge in it, knowing that it is not supposed to be exercised ?

We need to find answers to these questions , please introspect , parents & the yuth both have to think on it , where everyone is going wrong

. and amend ourselves in the light of Gurbani

reding & reciting gurbaani is not just a ritual, it aims at reading , understanding the meaning and following

the teaching in real life . Our great gurus have stated their teachings in common mans language so that

any one and every one has access to their teachings , so please carry on, try to understand & imbibe the teachings

in case of doubt at any point consult someone well versed and with practical experience in living according to the tenets

as laid by the Great Gurus

best of luck

seems to be signed by some addanshahi ( followers of bhai kanhaiya ji school of thaught , also called sewapanthis)will get back with full translation

can be d loaded from SGPC site

The same reason why u cant wear stuff like make-up or Jewellery.

oh dam just realised this topic was started in 2008! loool oops my bad!

as essence of our faith lies in accepting the body as a gift of Waheguru , we should try to preserve as it is,

further for making tatoos , body hair are to be removed which iself is kurehat , hence we should desist from it

THE TOPIC IS NEVER IRRELEVENT TATS THE REASON I M POSTING MY VIEWS

FATEH

I've heard of this first time.....I think no taksal follows this standing lavan procedure.......it's always sitting after every laav while the bhai does the path and then stand and walk when ragi singhs starts the keertan of lavaan .....and pathi does tell this to the couple when they have to sit and when they have to stand and start lavan.....

suggested read sikh reha maryada published by SGPC from where my post has been quoted

If You are planning to visit india , our family would welcome you as our guest , send PM if interested

I am Quoting chapter XI article XVIII of Sikh rehat maryada wherein instructions regarding anand sanskar is laid down

Anand Sanskar (Lit. Joyful Ceremonial : Sikh Matrimonial Ceremony and Conventions)

Article XVIII

a. A Sikh man and woman should enter wedlock without giving thought to the prospective spouse's caste and descent.

b. A Sikh's daughter must be married to a Sikh.

c. A Sikh's marriage should be solemnized by Anand marriage rites.

d. Child marriage is taboo for Sikhs.

e. When a girl becomes marriageable, physically, emotionally and by virtue of maturity of character, a suitable Sikh match should be found and she be married to him by Anand marriage rites.

f. Marriage may not be preceded by engagement ceremony. But if an engagement ceremony is sought to he held, a congregational gathering should be held and, after offering the Ardas before the Guru Granth Sahib, a kirpan, a steel bangle and some sweets may be tendered to the boy.

g. Consulting horoscopes for determining which day or date is auspicious or otherwise for fixing the day of the marriage is a sacrilege. Any day that the parties find suitable by mutual consultation should be fixed.

h. Putting on floral or gilded face ornamentation, decorative headgear or red thread band round the wrist, worshipping of ancestors, dipping feet in milk mixed with water, cutting a berry or jandi (Prosopis spieigera) bushes, filling pitcher, ceremony of retirement in feigned displeasure, reciting couplets, performing havans (Sacrificial fire), installing vedi (a wooden canopy or pavilion under which Hindu marriages are performed), prostitutes' dances, drinking liquor, are all sacrileges.

i. The marriage party should have as small a number of people as the girl's people desire. The two sides should greet each other singing sacred hymns and finally by the Sikh greetings of Waheguru ji ka Khalsa, Waheguru ji ki Fateh.

j. For marriage, there should be a congregational gathering in the holy presence of Guru Granth Sahib. There should be hymn-singing by ragis or by the whole congregation. Then the girl and the boy should he made to sit facing the Guru Granth Sahib. The girl should sit on the left side of the boy. After soliciting the congregation's permission, the master of the marriage ceremony (who may be a man or a woman) should bid the boy and girl and their parents or guardians to stand and should offer the Ardas for the commencement of the Anand marriage ceremony.

The officiant should then apprise the boy and the girl of the duties and obligations of conjugal life according to the Guru's tenets.

He should initially give to the two an exposition of their common mutual obligations. He should tell them how to model the husband-wife relationship on the love between the individual soul and the Supreme Soul in the light of the contents of circumambulation (Lavan) hymns in the Suhi measure (rag) section (The bulk of the Guru Granth (the Sikh holy book ) is divided on the basis of the ragas (measures) of the Indian classical music. Suhi is one of the ragas featuring in the Guru Granth Sahib) of the Guru Granth Sahib.

He should explain to them the notion of the state of "a single soul in two bodies" to be achieved through love and make them see how they may attain union with the Immortal Being discharging duties and obligations of the householders' life. Both of them, they should be told, have to make their conjugal union a means to the fulfillment of the purpose of the journey of human existence; both have to lead clean and Guru-oriented lives through the instrumentality of their union.

He should then explain to the boy and girl individually their respective conjugal duties as husband and wife.

The bridegroom should be told that the girl's people having chosen him as the fittest match from among a whole lot, he should regard his wife as his better half, accord to unflinching love and share with her all that he has. In all situations, he should protect her person and honour, he should be completely loyal to her and he should show much respect and consideration for her parents and relations as for his own.

The girl should be told that she has been joined in matrimony to her man in the hallowed presence of the Guru Granth Sahib and the congregation. She should ever harbour for him deferential solicitude, regard him the lord master of her love and trust; she should remain firm in her loyalty to him and serve him in joy and sorrow and in every clime (native or foreign) and should show the same regard and consideration to his parents and relatives as she would, to her own parents and relatives.

The boy and girl should bow before the Guru Granth Sahib to betoken their acceptance of these instructions. Thereafter, the girl's father or the principal relation should make the girl grasp one end of the sash which the boy is wearing over his shoulders and the person in attendance of the Guru Granth Sahib should recite the matrimonial circumambulation stanzas {Lavan of the fourth Guru in the Suhi musical measure section of the Guru Granth Sahib } (Pp. 773-4). After the conclusion of the recitation of each of the stanzas, the boy, followed by the girl holding the end of the sash, should go round the Guru Granth Sahib while the ragis or the congregation sing out the recited stanza.

The boy and girl, after every circumambulation, should bow before the Guru Granth Sahib in genuflexion, lowering their forehead to touch the ground and then stand up to listen to the recitation of the next stanza.There being four matrimonial circumambulation stanzas in the concerned hymn, the proceeding will comprise four circumambulations with the incidental singing of the stanza.After the fourth circumabulation, the boy and girl should, after bowing before the Guru Granth Sahib, sit down at the appointed place and the Ragis or the person who has conducted the ceremony should recite the first five and the last stanza of the Anand Sahib. Thereafter, the Ardas should he offered to mark the conclusion of the Anand marriage ceremony and the sacred pudding, distributed'.

k. Persons professing faiths other than the Sikh faith cannot be joined in wedlock by the Anand Karaj ceremony.

l. No Sikh should accept a match for his/her son or daughter for monetary consideration.

m. If the girl's parents at any time or on any occasion visit their daughter's home and a meal is ready there, they should not hesitate to eat there. Abstaining from eating at the girl's home is a superstition. The Khalsa has been blessed with the boon of victuals and making others eat by the Guru and the Immortal Being. The girl's and boy's people should keep accepting each other's hospitality, because the Guru has joined them in relationship of equality (Prem Sumarag).

n. If a woman's husband has died, she may, if she so wishes, finding a match suitable for her, remarry. For a Sikh man whose wife has died, similar ordinance obtains.

o. The remarriage may be solemnized in the same manner as the Anand marriage.

p. Generally, no Sikh should marry a second wife if the first wife is alive.

q. A baptised ought to get his wife also baptised.

The relevent section has been highlighted for readers' benefit to see and conclude them selves , without any comments from Das

the relevent portion itself explains every thing

FATEH

yes. i thought about that also. but then i thought, that it sounds like 'using, just for my own purpose'. that i dont like. i surely would learn the punjabi culture by sideeffect, by living in punjabi family, but that was not my intention. my intention is just feeling home and familar.

But you are right. if i am always too shy and reserved i would not have success.

coming to India , welcome to be our family guest , can send pm for further interact

dont me thinks it deserves any notice , just ignor it

Gurfatehjee

Does any know what Pathar chappi is?

And mor details ofthis method of printing?

The process?

Time period it was used in punjab, and also if it was usual for Gutkeh sahibs pothis sahib to be printed In this method?

Thanks

this is aprocess in vogue in printing till sixties of last centuary, on a piece of special soft kind of stone the letters were etched

thru some chemical process and print reproduced on paper , during my childhood i have seen such thing in Urdu printing

Wahegurujikakhalsa Wahegurujikifateh

So for a while now I've been noticing the spread of this symbol amongst gursikhs. However I don't understand some of the following regarding this symbol:

When it came to be? Earliest known image.

What it means and stands for?

Why Sikhs seem to have adopted it as their symbol?

Is it mentioned in any Gurbani or any rehat meryada?

& anything else regarding it...

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Wahegurujikakhalsa Wahegurujikifateh

which symbol Ur talking 'bout , I donot see any on Yr post

Guru Pyaareho, I have recieved a great e-mail from a developer. I will just paste it here, it explains that they are already aware of this and doing their best to sort this out :

Surinder

"WJKK,

WJKF!!

This is a possibility of mistakes, as I have taken files from

Internet and created a DB by parsing them. I know, at many places in

Bani other than SGGS, there are inaccuracies, which were brought to my

notice time and again from Sangat which I have corrected after doing a

due diligence ( unfortunately there is no authentic copy against

which I can verify other than SGGS and few other banis). I have not

yet got any authentic correction request for SGGS.

For correction, best is to read the bani from large screen aPad and

notify me through e-mail, If I try to export the files and give it to

you, then it will only solve 50% of the problem, but the remaining 50%

will remain as there is lot of post processing logic which is

performed, before the bani is rendered on the screen.

There are few Sikhs, who have volunteered to read the bani in

Ludhiana and have promised me to send the corrections. I am yet to

receive corrections from them.

Regards,

Surinder"

i am not apps developer m'self but i can advise you to pick files for yr apps from authentic source only,

pdf files of many these are avilable at spcs site

Sangat Jee,

I have been looking through some apps on my android tablet and phone etc which you can search Gurbani which claims to have indexed sources such as Amrit Keertan Pothi on it etc. However I have come across a particular shabad which has put some doubts on the internets authenticity.

I'm going to use 1 particular shabad as an example and also understand it could just be an exceptional anomaly.

The shabad is : Har Sachae Takth Rachhaeaa Sath Sangat Melaa

I have an Amrit Keertan Pothi from around 40 years ago and this Pothi Sahib itself has been used by Puraatan Gursikhs. Now line 3 and 6 in the Pothi Sahib are as follows :

3 : Gur Simar Manaee Kalkaa Khandae Kee Velaa

6 : Gur Sangat Kenee Khalsaa Manumukhee Duhelaa

however on other internet sources and the Amrit Keertan android app also searchgurbani.com it is different and possibly incorrect (I say this because this shabad is from Bhai Gurdas Jee's vaaran and could potentially have 2 different versions)

3: Gur Daas Manaee Kalkaa Khandae Kee Velaa

6 : Sangat Kenee Khalsaa Manumukhee Duhelaa

Is there any learned Gursikh here who can clear my doubt and whether I should scrap using these apps etc and just stick to the Gutka Sahib?

I use it for Keertan purposes and don't want to be reading the wrong shabad.

LINES FROM THE AMRIT KIRTAN POTHI ARE CORRECT, may download Waran Bhai Gurdas ji

from SGPC site, from which the pauri is taken.

FATEH

What does this say? Someone posted it on facebook and I want to know what it says. It seems like RSS propaganda.

Does anyone know what the egg image symbolizes?

This is the poster of a hindu sect called BRAHMAKUMARIS, HQ at Mount Abu Rajasthan India

The sect was established by some sindhi guy at Karachi , shiftedduring partition to present place ,

their all missionaries are womenin the centre is photo snap of Lekhraj Kriplani the sect founder,

the sect is mired in many cotroversies worldwide as they preach celibacyand abstainance , believe

that the end is very near & then only theywill remain to rule the world . more info can be had from

the sect' websiteunder the same name or alternately www.brahmakumari.info (this is the anti's link)

During the guru ji's time they were the flagbearers of sikh Army , so to keep their hands free for war , some started tying dumala style high turban

as a tokrn of flag , some sakhis tell that youngest of 4 sahibzadas , durin their mutual play tied such dastaar and shown to the Guru Sahib, his

father telling that he has become now the tallest , the Guru became so overjoyed by the spirit of sahibzada that he ordained the main flagbearers to

follow the style , which in battlefields would sow fear among the enemy lines

no its not about astrology because when i was listening to the Suraj Prakash katha of this event Dhan Guru Arjan Sahib Ji wanted to see it and sent Bhai Mardana and i believe Perra Mokha to get it and when they brought it back Guru Ji was very happy with them both and said its like having the darshan of Guru Nanak Sahib Ji by seeing the Janam Patri.

I just wanted to know if it exist. Would you not want to see it?

without being arrogant my questions -please give a thought

1 was bhai Mardana ji alive during life of The 5th Master?

2 We preserve the relics of the Greats to get some inspiration i to do good deeds , what inspiration could

we get from the Janam patri ?(this question posed to Kam 1825)

do not you think we are all childen of the guru sahiban ( if we follow the paTh shown by them)?

Guru Sahiban , even in their life gave more importance to those who followed their teachings

than their own children , I think action of the Guru Sahiban in this regard speak enough and

leave nothing to be added

FATEH

Do we believe in Astrology ? is not such type of question leading us to Brahminism and related ritualisms ?