Aman0001

There’s been some excellent responses, much appreciated. My 2 cents are as follows:- SarabjeetSingh – Absolute Power will always be with Akal Takht as it is today. If the Sangat are not happy with the Granthi for whatever reason then he will be held accountable and a decision taken by the Akal takht. Imams and Qazis caused a bloodbath not due to their absolute power (which I am not suggesting we give to Granthis) but due to their interpretation of the Koran. They interpreated that all non muslims devils should either convert to islam or die. They passed this message onto their followers. Now the Sikh religion has no such teachings, we do not have any concepts of Jihad or crusading, only the right to self defence. GPS – Granthis who do not have a basic grasp or pyaar for Sikhi will never be able to minister a Gurdwara or maintain protocols effectively. Im not saying that we should create Ph D level Granthis and remove the one-to-one relationship that a Sikh should have with his Guru. The curriculum of the educational institution I am suggesting does not have to be a scholarly one, it could be a mix of all important Gurmat requirements. All im saying is unless you educate yourself on Sikhi and understand and discuss Gurbani you will never develop a love and affinity for it. If there is no pyaar for the faith from our Granthis then we are doomed. Do me a favour, next time you go to your local Gurdwara ask the Granthi to name the 10 Gurus and 5 beloved ones of the top of his head, and then provide a two sentence summary of each of their achievements/roles/history anything. I think you’ll be shocked by his lack of responses. These are fundamentals basics, like a child learning abc at school. Amritaa – I only did a comparison with Islam as a case study, it was just to make a few points. I agree with all you are saying. Only if we had Khalsaa raaj could we have a religious education institution for Granthis in Punjab without the Badal and Congress effect. So agreed, why not have UK based institutions. Conclusion The main point im trying to make is that we need Granthis who are drenched in love for Sikhi. We need a process to identify and recruit these types of Granthis. Now if a person is willing to go through a Sikhi education process and commit themselves to it, then you at least know they are commited, they are for real and that they have the knowledge of the fundamentals. At the moment the current process a lot of the time only recruits Granthis who are drenched in love for a passport Sikhi.

I think we as an educated young SIkh sangat need to tackle the major ills within our community as a priority, as opposed to focusing on issues which are a lower priority in comparison. In my personal opionion our Granthi recruitment model is one of the high priority cancers which has so many negative follow-on reactions. APPROACH This is quite a major reform and the only way to achieve it is by getting the Akal Takht and SGPC on board. However, before we can do that we will need the support of the UK sangat and the new Sikh Council UK. Once the SCUK are on board they can lobby the Akal Takht/SGPC on the behalf of the UK sangat. Now you need to bear in mind that this reform is a fundamental one, therefore, introducing it will need to be done using a phased as opposed to a big bang approach. The basic recommendations are as follows:- RECOMMENDATIONS 1. SGPC/Akal Takt create a Granthi Religious Education Institution within India. 2. All individuals who want to become Granthis (Indian nationals or overseas people) need to obtain a Granthi degree from this institution (anyone wanting to work overseas would also have to learn the language of the country they wish to go to). 3. Any individuals who pass the Granthi degree course will be put on a “Granthi list”. 4. Any overseas Gurdwaras wishing to recruit a new Granthi can choose an individual from the Granthi list. 5. Any Granthi who is caught undertaking Anti Gurmat activities will be removed from the Granthi list and be accountable to then Akal Takht.

Letting the Gurdwara know what this Giani has been doing is the only option available to you. However, this is such a short term resolution as the Gurdwara may get rid of this Giani and recruit another one (using the flawed Giani recruitment process) who is just as bad. The problem here is with the process. The only way we can resolve this issue is by tackling the root of the problem, which is basically reformation of the way our Gurdwaras recruit Gianis. This can only be introduced by Akal Takht. They need to introduce new legislation which details that Gianis need to have gone through a Giani educational program/degree through formal religious institutions. These Gianis can then be put on a “Giani list” which Gurdwaras the world over can recruit from, with the knowledge that they will be taking on a good quality Giani. This way you get well educated Gianis who are dedicated to Sikhi. And if the Giani does turn out to be bad, the Akal Takht individuals who will are responsible for Giani education and the “Giani list”, can be held to account.

These things are not the norm, but happen alot more then they should. Read my post “Sikh Giani Recruitment Model Vs Muslim Cleric Recruitment Model" which is related to this topic. The crux of the problem is this – When a Gurdwara is looking for a Granthi they have to go to India as opposed to sourcing one locally. In India anybody can become a Granthi, all you need to do is appear to be Amritdhari and take a few Gurbani and Keertan classes to give yourself credibility. There are a lot of people who become pretend Granthis in India so that they can come and work in a UK Gurdwara (this is a much cheaper way of getting to the UK as opposed to paying an agent). As soon as they get their residency they leave the UK Gurdwara they work in. Now, these Granthis are not true Sikhs and in most cases are not even religious. So while they are working in the Gurdwara waiting to get their UK residency, it is hard for them to go so long without meat and alcohol.<BR style="mso-special-character: line-break"><BR style="mso-special-character: line-break"> Now the question we need to ask is, who is more to blame, the pretend Granthis who get a free passport? Or the Sikh institutions who use a Giani recruitment model which is completely flawed and allows pretend Granthis to abuse it?

In my opinion the role/position of a Head Preacher/Giani is the most important position within any religious institution and one that the Sikh community have got so very badly wrong. I believe that getting this issue resolved will remove 90% of all the problems Sikhs face in our Gurdwaras. Lets do a comparison of the Sikh Giani recruitment model with the Cleric model used by the Muslim faith:- All Muslim Clerics/Giani’s have to obtain an Islamic Degree (takes a number of years) before they can even think about becoming a Cleric. IF, they pass all examinations and are deemed worthy by their peers, they get put on a cleric list. Any new mosques built can choose a worthy cleric from the cleric list. [in comparison, anybody can become a Granthi in a Gurdwara, the only requirement is that they are an Amritdhari Sikh (or in a lot of cases pretending to be due to other motives). This recruitment process is nothing short of a joke]. Benefits of the Muslim Model:- 1. It ensures that the Clerics are committed and dedicated to their faith and not doing it for a visa or any other negative reason. There are many Gianis who simply are not religious (they only want a visa). Therefore there are many instances where "so called" Giani’s are caught drinking, gambling or even looking at women in an inappropriate way. This is extremely damaging for our faith. I cant even begin to describe the damage this causes. The main pity is that these issues are being caused by people who do not even believe in Sikhi, they are simply pretending Granthis. 2. It ensures that they are very well educated within their faith and can debate with the best from other faiths. This maintains the credibility of the religion within the eyes of the wider non muslim community. They can also answer the questions posed by their congregation in an accurate and authoritative fashion. 3. It ensures they are highly respected by their own congregation. This therefore allows the cleric to resolve any issues within the community and mosque and their word is final. Mosques do have administrative staff (committees) but any religious disputes are resolved by the cleric who is the highest religious authority at the local level (unlike in Gurdwaras where any Tom, <banned word filter activated> or Harry can become a committee member and deem themselves a religious authority for the day). They therefore do not have the drama of committee disputes like we do and the pathetic process of voting for committees. Committees should be nothing more then Gurdwara administrators, there should be no Pardhan’s, the leader of the Gurdwara should be the head Granthi who would be the religious leader of his congregation and accountable directly to the Akal Takht. Because of the lack of education, Gianis are not educating their congregation only applying ritualistic principles of simply reading gurbani blindly, as opposed to the dharamsala process introduced by Guru Nanak, which incorporated reading, learning about and discussing Gurbani (As Sikh Gianis in most cases are not educated they can do nothing else but be ritualistic). This ensures that the Sikh congregation do not become knowledgeable themselves, therefore are in no position to educate their children or anybody else about the Sikh faith. We are simply applying a Bhramanistic approach. 4. Muslim clerics talk about local issues which the community are facing during their Friday prayers. This allows them to discuss and tackle their issues at a local level. It also bonds the community together, unites them and gives them strength. Giani are playing no social role within our communities. Conclusion In my opinion the process used for recruiting Giani’s is so wrong that its like a cancer within the Sikh community. Please lets stop using a model which does not work. Blocker We will not be able to tackle this issue unless we start creating Gianis from our local communities. We have so many youth today who are so well spoken and educated within Gurabani, but they will never even consider becoming a Granthi (or a more appropriate definition would be a localised religious leader who not only undertakes the Granthi duties but actively engages the local community with sermons etc). These youngsters would be awesome at spreading Sikhi to the congregations as well as effectively communicating to the youngsters within the local sangat and also implementing strategies within a Gurdwara to spread Sikhi. But no local Sikh Youth will take the job as a Granthi as the pay is terrible as the social status is so low. Its such a shame that probably the most important job within the Sikh faith is also the least well paid. And that is our blocker, until we start to pay our Granthis a proper salary and encourage local Granthis who have a real passion for Sikhi, the Sikh faith will not make any real progress. The majority of Jewish, Christian and Muslim priests are born and bred UK citizens and that’s the sole reason why they are so far ahead of us. Every one of their priests is encouraged to become a local religious leader (a local mini Bhindranwala) where as most of our Granthi’s have become nothing more then the butt of jokes with little or no respect. So unfortunately what does it boil down to? The first thing is our Granthi recruitment model is wrong. The second is, we youth are to blame. We are so good at criticizing, but no one is prepared to dedicate their life to the Guru by becoming a localized religious leader (Granthi).

Great discussion. It was good that everybody had the chance to give their opinion and that the chair remained impartial. I think that the show came accross as a well balanced and impartial debate which was important. As oppossed to a bias towards the Saatkar guys on a panthic channel. The way it was carried out will surely help to convince and educate the wider sangat that the Satkaar guys are bang on with their views.

There are about 300 hundred Gurdwaras in the UK. Some are run very well in a progressive fashion and some are run by Pardhans who only care about chodhr. Ultimately this is just a fact of life and reflects society in general, not everybody is bad and nor is everybody good. Now the fact is, our grandparents and parents came to this country mainly in the 60’s, 70’s and 80’s and with very little education, with no support network in the UK, without the ability to effectively communicate is English, without any major funding and were able to establish lots of Gurdwaras along with Punjabi Schools etc in this country. There’s no doubt about it, they are by no means perfect, but what have we youngsters done to build upon the foundations they have given us? Have we taken them to the next level? The answer is not very much and no. I know there are Gurdwaras in this country, where the pardhans have them locked down for their own purposes, but they do not represent all Sikh Gurdwaras and we should not take such a pessimistic view. Now if we have a Sikh Council that we know represents the majority of Gurdwaras or at least can influence them. Then we at least have a single point of attack if we want to achieve reform within Gurdwaras. The alternative is to try and reform each individual Gurdwara on an individual basis which is unrealistic and usually gets relayed out to the local sangat as thuggery by Singhs (alienating the local Sangat). So give the Sikh Council a chance, as not doing so will mean that we remain stagnant. Trying for change (regardless of the outcome) is better then doing nothing.

GPS, Only Five - a response from SIkhRI on some of the issues is attached. It seems they took on board the sangats comments and amended their lesson plan. I completely understand what you guys are saying, some of Harinder Singhs theoretical lectures confuse the hell out of me….. ….but on the other hand, I have heard his lectures on 1984 and how we should develop sikh leaders and they are spot on. So I cant completely castigate the guy, maybe his strengths are in the Sikh political sphere as opposed to scholarly interpretations. Bul Chuk Maf Sojhi Review Committee Responds.pdf Revised Dohre lesson plan.PDF

I posted the below message on the topic "Are Panthic Jathebandis Still Active?". I feel this message is also applicable to this topic:- As detailed by Southall Youth, Sikh Federation are ISYF renamed, however, they have evolved. They have evolved from being an ineffective “wave your arms in the air in an angry fashion (ISYF)” kind of party, to a party who are applying effective lobbying strategies which give a political party credibility and actually work when pursuing political objectives. The problem with Sikh Federation is that they can’t get enough Sikhs to support them, which has a direct impact on their lobbying capabilities (therefore their lobby is nowhere near as effective as it could be). For this very reason, the Sikh Federation are supporting the new Sikh Council, for the sole reason of uniting the UK Sikh Panth, because they know that if the Sikhs can speak with one united voice and have the numbers to back it up, we would have a very strong political party who’s lobbying has real power. If this dream was to be realised, and the government went against the Sikhs on a particular issue, we would be able to effectively mobilise a large number of the 700,000 strong Sikh population through this organisation and have a direct impact on general elections (i.e. swing the vote for/against the govt in certain regions within the country) which could be the difference between them winning or losing an election. Now when a govt knows your lobby has that kind of power, they are going to listen to you and help you with your community issues. So my hope is that even though we may not be able to agree on all issues, lets unite behind the Sikh Council so that we can fight for our rights (lobby) on the big political issues effecting our community at a national level and no longer be the only major religion with zero political clout. And if the Sikh Council is not perfect, then lets get in there ourselves and change it from the inside, and if they don’t let us do that, then lets build strategies to change the Sikh Council for the better, but don’t make the mistake of giving up on this vision as this vision is our only political avenue, we have no other choice.

Agreed........

As detailed by Southall Youth, Sikh Federation are ISYF renamed, however, they have evolved. They have evolved from being an ineffective “wave your arms in the air in an angry fashion (ISYF)” kind of party, to a party who are applying effective lobbying strategies which give a political party credibility and actually work when pursuing political objectives. The problem with Sikh Federation is that they can’t get enough Sikhs to support them, which has a direct impact on their lobbying capabilities (therefore their lobby is nowhere near as effective as it could be). For this very reason, the Sikh Federation are supporting the new Sikh Council, for the sole reason of uniting the UK Sikh Panth, because they know that if the Sikhs can speak with one united voice and have the numbers to back it up, we would have a very strong political party who’s lobbying has real power. If this dream was to be realised, and the government went against the Sikhs on a particular issue, we would be able to effectively mobilise a large number of the 700,000 strong Sikh population through this organisation and have a direct impact on general elections (i.e. swing the vote for/against the govt in certain regions within the country) which could be the difference between them winning or losing an election. Now when a govt knows your lobby has that kind of power, they are going to listen to you and help you with your community issues. So my hope is that even though we may not be able to agree on all issues, lets unite behind the Sikh Council so that we can fight for our rights (lobby) on the big political issues effecting our community at a national level and no longer be the only major religion with zero political clout. And if the Sikh Council is not perfect, then lets get in there ourselves and change it from the inside, and if they don’t let us do that, then lets build strategies to change the Sikh Council for the better, but don’t make the mistake of giving up on this vision as this vision is our only political avenue, we have no other choice.

iphonesingh, you have stated "Stay away from Sikhri (Sikh Research Institution)" without providing any reason why. From what I know of them, they are doing awesome SEVA all over the world, especially in America. Harinder Singh's speaches have also been aired on Sikh TV. If my positive opinion of them is incorrect, can you please justify with reasons/evidence.

Hi All, I’m pretty new to Sikhi, but I found the following videos interpreting what “Naam” is excellent and very thought provoking:- Harinder Singh has obviously undertaken a great amount of research on the subject. I wanted to get a view from the Sangat as to whether there understanding of Naam was pretty similar to Harinder Singhs interpretation. Aman