kurtas

This very same topic has been discussed on Tapoban (I think it was the same poster). Some copy and pasting from the Tapoban posts. >>The Akal Takht Jathedar Sandhu Singh Bhaura issued a hukumnama dated February 15th 1980 that Gursikhs can eat meat as long as it is jhatka meat and that eating meat does not go against the code of conduct, Kurehit, of the Sikhs. Thus a Sikh cannot be excommunicated for eating meat. So there is a Hukumnama which makes the issue quite clear as far as Sikhs go. Maybe we need to contact the Akal Takht and see what the situation is with regards to animals kept by Sikhs i.e. does the ban on Halal apply to animals as well. Of cause we could just use our common sense else next we will have someone posting a thread about their German Shepard dog mating with next door neighbours Japanese Akita etc etc and if this is ok or wrong. The veggie lobby are going to tell you dogs are omnivores so can survive on veggie food. Then there is the carnivore lobby who will say give it meat. I have seen dog sin the wild and they certainly do not eat vegetables. They hunt prey and eat meat as such I would back the carnivore lobby.

I shudder to think what kind of papers you are on about, maybe the ones that say that Khalsa means pure so basically it means the 'pure' of heart will rule..not necessarily Sikhs! Are these the papers you are on about? Since I appear to be naive in thinking Khalsa means Amritdhari Sikhs maybe you can enlighten both myself and the other ignorant members here and tell us what Raj Karega Khalsa means? That would be great sewa on your part Its best to modify ones views in the light of any new knowledge that maybe shared in a forum discussion.. not reply with snide remarks. Once again none so blind as those who refuse to see. I have shown you that the idea of a sovereign Sikh state predates your few hotheads by many decades, yet you only repeat the same old drivel. Khushwant Singh is a bootlicker of the Indian Congress party as well as India. He gives many speeches and his views in these speeches are changable according to those listening and those paying the tab. His views on Sikhism has gone from his view that Sikhism is an independent religion to being a sect of Hinduism. Yes you are right he did give a speech against Operation Bluestar yet by the 90's he was a ardent fan of KPS Gill praising his campaign on genocide against the Sikh youth. 95758[/snapback] Yes I repeat the same drivel because Khalistan is the conception of a few idiots who are now happily living in India. They got innocent people caught in a cycle of violence whilst them and their own families were safe abroad. We had some idiots spouting rubbish about a state called Sikhistan in the 1960s and look what happened to that idea. Same will happen to your ideas. The very name shows how much respect these peopel have for Sikhism. How can Khalsa become Khalis ? khalis is an arabic word so why would anyone want to have a Sikh state names after an arabic word ? Unless of cause those who came up with the names are fans of Laura Khalil and her song Khalis el-Kalam, maybe they had been to Khalis, a small, provincial capital about 50 miles north of Baghdad or could be that Mawlawi Mohammad Yunus Khalis was the inspiration for them, maybe they met Mawlawi Mohammad Yunus Khalis or were fans of the Hizbi Islami-Khalis. I was all for a Sikh nation until I visited Punjab and heard people were fed up with police and militant excesses and all they wanted to do was live in peace without the threat of the gun hanging over them. They did not give two hoots about Khalistan, Sikhistan or whatever you decide to call it next. According to hotheads I have heard Maharaja Ranjit Singh's rule was not Khalsa Raj in accordance with their twisted views. He was a secular ruler and so not on level with them in terms of how faithful to the Sikh faith he was. What ever happened to the Babba Akalis ? Lost steam didnt they because no one subscribed to their views, just like what has happened to the Khalistan movement. The only people backing it are in the west, if they want it so badly why dont they go and fight for it ? I suspect they are all living confortable lives sitting on their plush sofas surfing the internet trying to propogate their unpopular views.

How you reconcile what you are writing with the fact that Simarjeet S Mann who's party advocate an independent Sikh state openly contest elections. Mr Mann has even won a few elections although his party was completly routed at the last elections.

Then why don't you advocate for the dismantling of the seperate nations of pakistan and india? That would be a start, there probably use to be no border per se between any country in asia, the middle east and europe. You would advocate for the dismantling of all those nations too right? You live in a home with borders, you have walls, a property line. You take care to respect the autonomy of your neighbours by not treating their place as if it was your home. BUT this does not mean that you don't live with everyone. Think about it a bit more and elaborate on what you have posted above. 95700[/snapback] Great reponse Buddasingh Ji. Question for untitled singh ..what do you do when the verse Raj Karega Khalsa comes up in Ardas? Do you just keep silent and miss it out of your Ardas? 95703[/snapback] I suggest you read about "Raj Karega Khalsa" in a bit more depth. It is certainly does not mean what you are espousing. Also Raj Karega Khalsa certainly does not equal Khalistan. The Khalsa has existed for centuries wheras khalistan is the brianchild of a few radicals (many of whom were quite happy to be MLA etc in India until they passed over for ministerial roles just like those who advocated Sikhistan in the 1960s). Also I have never understood how anyone can corrupt the word Khalsa to Khalis. Can anyone explain how the Khalsa was corrupted to Khalis. 95716[/snapback] Raj Karega Khalsa = rule of the Khalsa Khalistan = rule of the Khalsa Maybe you should be doing the indepth reading FYI Khalistan is not the brainchild of a few radicals, where have you been doing your indepth reading? A sovereign Sikh state whether it be Khalistan or a Sikhistan has been an issue since the 1920's when the Babbar Akalis started their campaign. In 1947 even the bootlicker in chief Khushwant Singh states that a majority of the Sikhs were in favour of the sovereign Sikh state. The Sikh leadership were checkmated by both the Hindus and the Muslims. The concept of a state ruled by the Sikhs did not die with the annexation of Panjab in 1849. Bhai Maharaj Singh in the 1840's, Baba Ram Singh in the 1870's, Maharaj Duleep Singh in the 1880's right through to Sant Jarnail Singh in the 1980's, each was an attempt to bring back the lost rule of the Khalsa. 95728[/snapback] Once again you show how you have been naivety in what you believe Raj Karega Khalsa to mean. I suggest you look in depth at what the word Khalsa means and study the various papers published analysing the words Raj Karega Khalsa. Oh so the Babar Akalis started a campaign in the 1920s for Khalsitan ?? Obviously lacked support as 85 years on people are still not for it. Khalistan is the brain child of a few hot heads like Dr Chohan and Dr Sohan Singh. Who happily lived abroad whilst innocent people were being gunned down by the state and militants and when militancy came to an end they happily returned back to live in their kotia around Chandigarh. I dread to think what publications you have been reading. As for boot-licker Kushwant Singh. He has done a lot of writing, which if you ever bother to read tells how innocent people were killed by mobs in the 84 riots and he points out how the GOI was to blame. He also openly spoke out against Bluestar. Tell me what have you done to make people around the world aware of what happened in 84 ?

The same colonies who despite suffering in 84 voted by and large for the Congress party in the last elections ? 95724[/snapback] And I suppose you've gone and talked to all these victims and foundout who they 'by and large' voted for. You obviously don't have a clue about Indian elections otherwise you would not be making such a foolish claim 95729[/snapback] No but I have seen the statistics after the voting results were published. Obviously you are still living in the past when elections were more open to rigging. Things have moved on obviously your knowledge has remained in the past.

The same colonies who despite suffering in 84 voted by and large for the Congress party in the last elections ? 95724[/snapback] And I suppose you've gone and talked to all these victims and foundout who they 'by and large' voted for. You obviously don't have a clue about Indian elections otherwise you would not be making such a foolish claim 95729[/snapback] No but I have seen the statistics after the voting results were published. Obviously you are still living in the past when elections were more open to rigging. Things have moved on obviously your knowledge has remained in the past.

The same colonies who despite suffering in 84 voted by and large for the Congress party in the last elections ?

Just like to add that very few in Punjab want it. The main political party that backs an independent Sikh nation the SAD Amritsar has very little backing. Its chief even lost his seat in the last election. They have never done very much in elections.

Then why don't you advocate for the dismantling of the seperate nations of pakistan and india? That would be a start, there probably use to be no border per se between any country in asia, the middle east and europe. You would advocate for the dismantling of all those nations too right? You live in a home with borders, you have walls, a property line. You take care to respect the autonomy of your neighbours by not treating their place as if it was your home. BUT this does not mean that you don't live with everyone. Think about it a bit more and elaborate on what you have posted above. 95700[/snapback] Great reponse Buddasingh Ji. Question for untitled singh ..what do you do when the verse Raj Karega Khalsa comes up in Ardas? Do you just keep silent and miss it out of your Ardas? 95703[/snapback] I suggest you read about "Raj Karega Khalsa" in a bit more depth. It is certainly does not mean what you are espousing. Also Raj Karega Khalsa certainly does not equal Khalistan. The Khalsa has existed for centuries wheras khalistan is the brianchild of a few radicals (many of whom were quite happy to be MLA etc in India until they passed over for ministerial roles just like those who advocated Sikhistan in the 1960s). Also I have never understood how anyone can corrupt the word Khalsa to Khalis. Can anyone explain how the Khalsa was corrupted to Khalis.

I have emailed the SGPC on a few issues and they always reply stating it has been passed to xyz. Nothing ever gets done. I am now of the opinion that the only way to get them to do anything is to embarass them into action when SGPC members come to the UK on fund raising exercises. I doubt they take letters any more seriously. nkt826, Some very good point you have raised. It appears that unless you are connected to Badal Akali Dal most rooms in the serai are off limits. Recently there were elections close to the border and Badal shipped in his rent a mob and they were all given rooms in the serai whilst the election campaign was on. So ordinary devotees were denied rooms so Badal and his stooges could accomodate "Akali" workers. Just shows how the SGPC has failed the intentions of its founders and should be disbanded as they are now just as bad as the mahants. I find it astonishing that after all the mismangement by the SGPC they expect to be handed the Pakistan Gurdwara.

Ha ha the Deols and decency do not go together. Look at his half sister Esha and how she dresses in films. Must have really low self esteem. As for Sunny Deol his level of decency can be measured by looking into his private life. I suppose with him charging few crore rupees for each film he has forgotten about where his roots are and is all too happy to don a turban and grow a trim beard to get some stereotyped Sikh roles in films. Every now and then the Deols come to the UK and Canada etc so why not question him. Or write to Sunny Deol at : Plot No. 22, 11th Road, JVPD Scheme, Mumbai 400 049

A few weeks ago I went to the Darbar Sahib complex. I have never been too impressed with the upkeep of the Harmandir Sahib by the SGPC but what I saw was very upsetting. I attach a few pictures from the upper levels of Harmandir Sahib. They show the utter neglect that requires expert restoration. I bet the SGPC have not even bothered to photograph things in detail so when restoration is done the experts have something to go by. The work done on the Akal Takht is also very shoddy. The ceiling looks like a bodge up job you would expect in a Las Vegas reconstruction of a historical building. A lot of money was raised in India and the West for rebuilding the Akal Takht. I wonder where it has gone as looking at the work in the building it does not appear to have been spent there.

If you mean giving the items back to Gurdwara in India you must be joking. In India there is a lot of apathy towards most historical things. The items they have are not cared for very well so kudos to the goras for keeping our historical items in good condition. Just looking at Gurdwara in India we can see the neglect. The only decent museum setup I have seen in Indian Gurdwara was the recent show at Bangla Sahib. The items were displayed professionally. Just a shame the show was not on for longer. Go to Gobindgarh fort and the Ram Bagh gardens in Amritsar to see the country bumpkin attitude that prevails when it comes to looking after our history. Take a walk around Harmandir Sahib and you will notice the neglect and apathy. I attach some pictures I took a few weeks ago from the upper levels of the Darbar Sahib. As you can see there is crumbling plaster, badly worn/faded pictures. Knowing how things work no doubt some kar seva wala will bang on a few bathroom tiles. Considering the SGPC has crores of rupees to spend it would be nice if they got some experts in to sort these problems out. I am surprised the Soho Road wale have not offered to fund expert restoration of the upper floors. The Gold plating work they did was not even needed, nor the mooted gate change of the Darshani Deori which has now been put on hold. I dont thank the goras for much but I thank them for keeping our heritage safe even if in their climate controlled museum vaults.

The Kalgi has been the centre of much debate as it cannot be found anywhere. The gold chair used to be on display at the Victoria and Albert Museum.

You have got to be kidding, I don't know how much experience you have with someone who is disabled. Doesn't seem like much. Do you not think that they all want to walk in the darbar? Yes they do, many though legs don't work or cannot walk etc, etc. They have no choice but to go in with a chair. Your logic is wacked it does not apply severly disabled people, only to minor disabled people. Where is your heart? 95214[/snapback] No I am not kidding. I have seen disabled people who cannot walk but with the grace of God and help of brothers and sisters they do go and do matha teyk without wheelchairs. These are very badly disable people I am talking about and not para-olympic athletes ! As I mentioned earlier my friends brother is disabled, he cannot walk etc but he has never asked for special treatment, he normally uses a motorised wheel chair but when he comes to the Gurdwara his fmaily help him to do matha teyk. I think it is you who has no experience with disabled people !. My massar (he passed away a few weeks ago) had several operations on his spine which severely restricted his movement, he never opted for a wheel chair but went slowly on his own when entering the Darbar hall. As for experience with disabled people I was bought up with my cousin who is severly disabled so do have experience of being around disabled people again my cousin never asks for special treatment when going to the Gurdwara. I think your logic is wacked and you need to open your eyes to how disabled people want to do things independently and not seek special treatment when entering Gurdwara. I remember once some chap trying to help a disabled person and the disabled person getting very angry as he wanted to do things himself even though he was physically disabled. I also suggest you watch films of the Domeli wala baba and the other baba who used to go with him to do yatra in Pakistan in the 1980s. One was blind and the other did not have the use of his legs. Never did they seek special treatment. The one used to sort of drag himself using his arms so he could matha teyk.

I saw the same thing here in Toronto :TH: It's very moving to see people like this and they're very inspiring ! 95187[/snapback] It is indeed very moving and at the same time sad that whilst these people manage best they can with their disabilities some people want to have chairs etc. They should be inspired by these people and learn from them that they too can go in the Gurus Durbar withoutchairs etc.

Thing with having chairs etc is people start to abuse it. At my local Gurdwara one or two people were allowed to sit on chairs due to severe disability and next thing you know old grans who could walk also decided they could sit on them because their legs hurt. There is a live camera link to the langar hall so they could easily go and sit and watch from there. There was some baba on the stage one of the weeks and he did quite a speach on the chairs and they were soon removed and have not reappeared one of the old ladies sitting on a chair was even able to stand up and walk away after the babas speach. Also when these old grans go to Gurdwara in India they do not expect chairs but in the west they want to take advantage of lax attitudes. My friends brother is severly disabled (cannot walk etc and cannot even use a normal wheelchair as one of his arms has very restricted movement) and he helps his brother to do metha teyk and then as best he can he will sit for a while in the Darbar hall before going to langar hall to sit on a chair and watch and listen via the live camera link. He does not ask for special treatment. I was in India a few weeks ago and saw an old woman in Amritsar who did parkamia in a wheel chair, when she got to te Darshani Deori she left the wheelchair at the Deori and made her way to the Darbar Sahib as best she could.

Been to Punjab 4 times within the last year. I have just seen Sikhi declining. Each time I go I see more and more people have cut their kesh. If 5000 a month are taking amrit that is a good thing but are these just made up figures ?

If you ever get a chance, go to Delhi and speak to some of the ordinary folk that were mostly affected………………Cab drivers, Shop Keepers etc. These are the people I spoke to and they have grave regrets that violence like this can take place between Hindu’s and Sikhs…………….it’s a very harrowing experience when you hear it first hand and makes you very angry…………. Perhaps he knows my Uncles and Dad……………..many of my Uncles were quite active in smashing fascists heads in Gravesend, Birmingham and London…………… Mate……the means tested grant system does not work…………..I will testify to that. According to the means testing system I did not qualify for a full grant, despite my mother being the only bread winner in the family and having to support me, my brother, my father and grandmother…………. All I saw at Uni was rich kids in BMW’s with full grants, because their parents had the best accountants………………I had to work and get a job through my Uni education so why can’t kids nowadays………….. ………they do need however to extend the bursaries that are available for the poorer kids further……………but I do not believe in means tested grants for which I have to pay for through my taxes, to support rich kids in Uni…………. As explained to you from the beginning…………..if you took a snapshot of Labour Ministers and Members you would find there are views ranging from the Left of Centre (Blairites) to the Left (Gordon Brownites/ Jon Prescott etc) to the far left, me (Tony Benn, Ken Livingstone etc etc). So New Labour is a spectrum of opinion. This political consensus is what political parties are built upon. I see my home as being with Labour because it is the only credible Left of Centre Party and the only left of centre party with a credible chance of challenging the “Party of Evil” The Conservatives. I don’t know if you remember the 80’s and the days of the “Looney Left” in the 80’s when Labour did not have a knats chance of beating the Tories, and as a result we have had 18 years of Tory misery, from which we are still suffering today…………….they basically sold all the UK’s assets and screwed (and brainwashed) the working man. “Greed is Good” was their mantra, and still is, and like sheep our Sikhs are following this Right Wing menace. On polling day, every vote will count, and votes in marginal seats that go towards Lib-Dems away from Labour, may allow the Tories to sneak in, because of the “first past the post” system in this country. The reverse will also be true, and that is why I say, use every vote tactically. Find out which party has the best chance in your constituency of keeping the Tory Menace out and vote for them accordingly. 94600[/snapback] There was nothing wrong with the means tested grants. Coming from a low income family I qualified for a full grant and was able to more than survive on it. I even managed to save a bit of money form the Grant and come out of Uni without any debts. I used to vote Labour but have not voted in the last few council elections because I think Blair has failed the working class people of this country. I will not vote Labour at national or local level until Blair leaves office. The tories did privatise a lot but Labour is following the same ethos and using the same values in promoting PPF etc.

Look mate....we're not going to agree........as long as you don't vote Tory or for the Right wing .......thats fine with me......... :T: I could go into the finer points about Pensions but I won't.......we won't agree........ :e: Who is your uncle........I may know him because I was involved in quite a bit of Filling in fascists myself and it got me in a lot of trouble unfortunately..............if he's from the East Ham Area and went to school around the 80's at secondary level........he'll definitely know me as one of the East Ham Boys.........I knew quite a few of the Southal and Birmingham Boys.......... Mate making fun of my academic achievements is no laughing matter............at the time in the mid 80's my father was unemployed as well as my brother..............my mother was the only bread winner.............I went to Uni without even getting one quarter of the means tested grant (what a joke) and I see rich kids on full grants and BMW's because their parents have the best accountants......... I bet you have never experienced Balifs at your door taking your furniture away, or your gas and electric being cut off...............I pray you never have to .............not times to be laughed at Actually you were not there, but I have spoken to eyewitnesses of the riots and they have pointed out people involved in the rioting.........AND the majority were Hindu's.........as well as Muslim.......... The army was held up for 3 days by the Congress politicians outside Delhi and when they entered (many were Sardar Jiwans)................they shot a killed many rioters...................that was witnessed by several victims I spoke to.......... ........Indonia will by arms from somewhere else, even if they don't buy them from the UK........ I thought I was adding humour to this dull conversation.....................if I have offended you then accept my apoligies.................PEACE........ 94491[/snapback] I may not have been a witness but I was at Uni with a few Sikhs who had come to the UK for study purposes from Delhi and they were more than clued up about what happened as their families were victims of the 84 riots. I doubt you know my uncle. He sorted out a few facists in the late 1970s so before your time and he was not from the London area. Shame Blair and his stooges who all benefitted from "free" education have now burdened the masses with tuition fees. Not exactly a great way to increase the number of people from lower income families from taking up Uni education. I think we will have to agree to disagree as this debate is going off the boil due to you claiming "New" Labour are socialist and me thinking they are an extension of Tory rule with very similar policies.

….and you’re doing a great job at doing nothing No, but I am out to shut Liberal Goody two shoes people up like you…………….while people like me were demonstrating outside the Old Bailey and Fighting fascists in the East End of London what were you doing?…………….probably weren’t even born…. At least Tory Boys are somewhere on the political spectrum…………you Liberals change your colours like your clothes……… :doh: ......... Proof please and less BS. The Liberal politicians are happy enough to take it too………….so have a dig at them too you hypocrite… More than you think……… Washing dishes and emptying bins is good honourable hard work…………..why do you considerate it as so below you? See this is the problem of you people brought up in your comfortable Middle Class lifestyles…………….you talk the talk, but don’t walk the walk…………..I’ve washed dishes and emptied bins in my lifetime and now I have several degrees under my belt and run successful consultancies which help poorer sections of society gain a stake in society…………. People like you sit in Starbucks sipping your coffees taking snipes………….and thats all you are good for........ I am proud to be seen emptying bins and washing dishes rather than a clueless wannabe…………. Now let me give you a little lesson………….in 1984 when a relative of mine was murdered by Hindu mobs in Delhi………………..the mobs weren’t flying jets…………it was eventually when the Army was let in that the mobs were shot and brought under control……….. …..and are you so naïve that you think India won’t buy arms from other countries like Russia, USA, China etc etc………………its you who is absurd and needs to loosen your pugh………… :cool: I suggest you learn to read full stop……….. Whether you like it or not there are talks over Palestine………………..better men than you and me have tried and failed to solve the crisis……………what hasn’t solved the crisis is people like you who take needless swipes at people who at least TRY! As for Blair being my Uncle……..you’ve definitely got your Kurtas and Pyjamas in a twist and are getting a bit incoherent…………. :doh: This post was a response to a LIE stating that Labour was racist against Sikhs………….and it was to check the naivety of that………….. …………my conscience is clear, whereas clueless people like you criticise for the sake of criticising………….. ……and for your information………….this Kirpan issue was jointly raised by the Lib-Dems (Check my earlier link)…………..so we can see who is playing politics where and who is TRULY naïve :doh: 94398[/snapback] Fact remains Labour whos cause you espouse were the majority party and they could have taken a stand against the increased pensions for MP's but they failed to do so. Really totally defeats your so called wealth redistribution comments when there are proposals to change the accrual rate so less pension is accrued by binmen, dinner ladies and other public sector workers. If you hink it is BS then I suggest you contact the institute of actuaries or even the actuarial division at PWC (they do a nice course on pensions which may help you understand them rather than BS about them!). Uhhh woopee so what you stood outside the old bailey etc. You are probably right I was not born in the late 1960s when you was walking around in your army surplus jacket outside the old bailey. You want a Blue Peter badge ? Whilst you was undetaking your peaceful marches my uncle sorted out some facists good and proper and served time for it. So stop trying to play the big hero. Plenty of people stood up to the facists in those days not just you ! Woopee you have some degrees. Maybe if you suck up to Blair and his cronies they may sort out a OBE for you. As for the 1984 riots, you once again show your total lack of knowledge. Firstly the mobs were not just HINDU as you claim, Muslims were also involved. The mobs had nothing else to destroy, rape or murder at the stage the army was bought in, so stop making false claims about the army bringing things under control. Secondly I suggst you look at Indonesia and the methods the Indonesian airforce used in East Timor to see how countries use military jets to kill civillians (once again your chacha Blair approved the sale of jets to Indonesia). As for my kurtas etc, nice to see how such an educated person with lots of degrees has to resort to lowly insults as they have nothing intelligent to say.

Kutas you’ve lost your pyjama There is NOTHING wrong with Socialism, or wishy washy about it…………….Liberal Democrats are just a mish mash of old ex-Right Wing Labour (Social Democrats) and clueless do gooder Liberals………….. …………….but hey yound pretty niave when it comes to politics……. New Labour is about using modern means to re-distribute wealth……….and not your traditional methods such as re-nationalisation, which clearly has been proven not to work……….. Are you a school child……………? The Institute for Fisical Studies, has clearly pointed out that those on lower incomes and with children are clearly better off that those with incomes of £40 K + http://www.ifs.org.uk/wps/wp0221.pdf SO GET YOUR FACTS RIGHT AND LESS OF THE SOAPY SPIN! :cool: The Public Sector needs reform (having worked there, I can tell you it is full of wasters) and sorting out and as the IFS has clearly stated the poorer sections of society are better off………… One of the side effects of a successful economy is that you will get richer people and those that have taken risks to start businesses and actually create jobs and wealth should see a return…………..its only fair……. Those on higher incomes will accrue higher pensions and a higher rate………….do I have to give you a lesson in economics too………..? You mean those damn lies?........................40 Labour Governemnt Ministers sign motions to support Sikhs and yet they are racist?....................you need your head examined……………..maybe your pugh is tied to tight? As for Iraq etc if you seriously believe that it was all down to intelligence failures then you are living in dream land. You really have no clue have you? Now let me give you a lesson how Governemnt Works eg Housing……………the Housing Minister will base projected figures on demand and supply on what Civil Servants and Local Authorities tell them from data and figures they collect…………. The same for the MOD…………they rely heavily of intelligence and what their advisors tell them…………. My own take is that war was inevitable with Iraq whether the intelligence was there or not………. The net effect of arms sales or not would be negligible in the case of India…………… I think you live in a political fantasy world……….. Sikhs are not that an important a priority when compared to the NHS, Immigration, the Economy…………that’s a fact………and no party has treated the Kirpan issue as a priority…………….so again…………GET YOUR FACTS RIGHT! Well actually, there are talks going on now over Palestine…………….put your copy of Beano away and start reading the papers……………. :doh: Look Child…………..you stick to spinning your CD’s and records and leave politics and other issues to us adults…… :doh: 94361[/snapback] You are doing a great job as a "New" Labour spin doctor. You after selection for a council seat ?? You remind me of Tory Boy. As for giving me Economic lessons, I suggest you undertake some actuarial studies to learn a bit more about pensions and accrual rates. Those on higher incomes need not accrue higher pensions RELATIVE to those on lower incomes, but if you increase the accrual rate for such people then they will accrue higher pensions. Obviously you think increasing the accrual rate for MPs to 1/40 from 1/55 is a way of redistributing wealth. You obviously do not have a clue about pensions. I suggest you stick to washing dishes and emptying rubbish bins rather than offering to give me Economic lessons. If you want actuarial lessons on defined benefit pension schemes then please feel free to drop me a PM. Ha ha net effect of arm sales to India would be negligible - what an absurd statement. So it is OK to sell Hawk "trainer" jets that can be adapted for use against civilians ? Talks over Palestine, where was your uncle Blair prior to the invasion of Iraq. No mention of talks. If you seriously think these "talks" are of any substance then you do seriously need to get a reality check. I suggest you put your copy of "The Daily Sport " and do some serious reading. No party has treated the Kirpan as a priority, well so stop claiming this as a positive for "New" Labour. We are not all as naive as you. We can see why this issue has been raised now by Labour.

I am a A Socialist and Labour represents a spectrum of views ranging from the far left to the center left of politics.................essentialy as IFS figures have confirmed ................it is the party of wealth redistribution............. Maybe you're a wishy washy confused Liberal or a Tory boy..............so you would not understand that.......... As for Iraq..............not to sure about that..........as for deciet...........any governenment is as good as the intelligence it has...............Hutton clearly directed to failures in intelligence....................my own personal feeling is that Sadam had to be taken out of the equation in the Middle East either way.........so the fact he is gone pleases me................. :TH: What about all the hospitals and schools they have built?...........reduced waiting lists?..........more doctors?.............more dentists?............. At least they are raising the Kirpan issue....................and after September the 11th and the stabbing of several kids in schools i.e. Damilola Taylor etc............the issue of knives is a hot potatoe no matter what the political spectrum............ I as a Sikh have reservations about it..................so what are politicians going to do?.............. As for Sikh votes..............they are a mere pin prick in the political arena.................the Muslims are about 2 million strong wheras we are about 0.5 million.............so if they wanted to ..........they could do nothing for us...........but they still are raising issues such as Sikh Human Rights abuses by the GOI............ ........... SO GET YOUR FACTS RIGHT SUNSHINE! Actually Human Rights do mean something despite selling of arms..............any governement be they Liberal, Labour or Tory would sell arms..................so stop being so naive.......... K SINGH, A lie was perpertrated in the form that Labour Governemnt is racist against Sikhs despite 40 Ministers in the Labour Government and a further 71 Labour MP's supporting Sikhs...................I am just tackling lies and smears posted here by those with a vested political interest............. 94164[/snapback] I think it is a case of you being a wishy washy socialist. "New" Labour has nothing to do with socialism. As for distributing wealth, yes they have done a great job at making the rich even richer. Whilst people working in the public sector are faced with drastic changes to their pensions, MPs under Labour have had their accrual rate altered so they accrue pensions at an even higher rate, judges who invariably come from the upper classes will not be hit by new capping rules on pension funds. So all in all yes a great job "New Labour" have done in making the rich even more better off. Look at the statistical facts quoted by another veer and you will see that in % terms Labour are not as pro Sikh as you like to pretend. As for Iraq etc if you seriously believe that it was all down to intelligence failures then you are living in dream land. As far as arms sales go if a government is serious about human rights abuses then they would use sanctions to block sales as has been the case against the Chinese for a while. Early day motions are nothing as nothing comes about from them. Strange how Labour forgot the Kirpan issue right until an election was called. Reminds me of the way Blair raises the Palestine issue whenever he is going to do anything in Iraq then forgets about it after everyhting is done and dusted. So please GET YOUR FACTS RIGHT SUNSHINE before you don the role of a "new" Labour spin doctor.

71 Labour MP's supported the motions about Sikh Human Rights, as opposed to 39 Conservatives and only 20 Liberal-Democrats. On top of this 40 Labour Cabinet Ministers, Juniour Ministers and Parliamentary Secretaries have lent their support to the Sikh Federation (UK).......that is 111 Labour MP's.............more than all the other parties put together............SO YOU HAVE DELIBERATELY SKEWED THE FIGURES....... @ .......The question should be asked Bro are you a Tory Boy or a Lib-Dem Supporter........... ..... CLEARLY LABOUR SUPPORTS SIKHS......... :TH: ...........and to add to this in Birmingham the Labour MP Khalid Mahmood was 100% behind the Sikhs after the "Behzti" incident.............. All I ask is for the facts to be presented acurately............ :e: I am unashamedly a Socialist and a Labour supporter and always will be and from my experience they have been the one party that has consistently been behind ethnic minorities like Sikhs...............unlike the racist Tories and the wishy washy Liberals.............. 94096[/snapback] You are socialist ? Then what you doing backing Labour ? "New" Labour are an extension of Tory rule. Nothing has changed for the ordinary man and the Labour Government lies and deceit over Iraq shows they are no better than their predecessors. They have had 2 terms in power yet only bothered to do anything about the Kirpan issue recently. Smacks of vote capturing method to me. They have lost much of the Muslim vote and now to capture Sikh votes announce a few measures to win votes. As for all the motions etc about human rights abuses. They really mean nothing when the Labour Government is openly trying to win arms orders for India.

The Marathas under the military leadership of Ragunath Rao did raise their flag over Attock and this was probably the peak of Peshwa power. After this and the defeat to Panipat the Martha generals split up to form their own Kingdoms (Baroda, Indore, Gwalior etc). None of the Panipat battles involved Sikhs against Marathas.