TuhadaDaas

No, you misunderstood what I was saying. I jap naam but have I truly japped naam? No. That day when Guru Ji blesses me to truly jap naam will be when in one instant naam saves me/liberates me. Thats what I was saying in that sentence of mine you quoted. When I said "through naam" I didn't mean me daily trying to jap naam, I mean it will be naam that Vaheguru uses to give that love. By that I mean that one instance of pure naam which as our Pita Ji states in Chauapi Sahib; "Ayk baar jin tumai su(n)bhaaraa. Kaal phaas tay taahi oobaaraa Jin nar naam tihaaro kahaa. Daarid dustt dokh tay rahaa. (24) O God, he who remembered You even once, You saved him from the noose of Death. Whosoever meditates on Your Name, he overcomes his poverty, suffering and adversity. (24) "

Bhai Kulbir Singh's latest article (given in my above post) I believe also answers this. Bhagats at final stage experience both things at once.

Please leave that to Guru Sahib to decide maharaj jeeo! There is a very good article here on liberation in Gurmat which covers your question, so I don't need to write any reply here. this is the link http://gurmatbibek.com/forum/read.php?3,24967,25005#msg-25005 I have also pasted the relevant part of the article here (by Bhai Kulbir Singh toronto) "Gurmat 1 + 1 = 1. The union of Vaheguru jee and the Jee is so complete that to the outer eye, they are 1: ਅਬ ਤਉ ਜਾਇ ਚਢੇ ਸਿੰਘਾਸਨਿ ਮਿਲੇ ਹੈ ਸਾਰਿੰਗਪਾਨੀ ॥ ਰਾਮ ਕਬੀਰਾ ਏਕ ਭਏ ਹੈ ਕੋਇ ਨ ਸਕੈ ਪਛਾਨੀ ॥6॥3॥ Bhagat Kabir jee is stating the fact that Raam and Kabira have become one, and no one can recognize the difference between the two. But the fact that Bhagat Kabir jee is stating this fact that he has become totally one with Vaheguru, proves that this union did not mean the annihilation of Bhagat Kabir jee. The union is very tight and they both become totally 1 but the "Self" of Bhagat Kabir jee is not eliminated or deleted in this process. This concept is further clarified by Siri Guru Gobind Singh jee, who states that prior to coming to this world, He was totally one with Vaheguru: ਇਹ ਬਿਧਿ ਕਰਤ ਤਪਸਿਆ ਭਯੋ ॥ ਦ੍ਵ ਰੂਪ ਤੇ ਇਕ ਰੂਪ ਹ੍ਵੈ ਗਯੋ ॥ Siri Guru jee writing that He did so much Bhagti that they become 1 from 2 i.e. Vaheguru and Guru Sahib became one. Then in the next Saloks, after becoming one, Vaheguru orders Siri Guru jee to go to this world for the expansion of Dharma: ਤਿਨ ਜੋ ਕਰੀ ਅਲਖ ਕੀ ਸੇਵਾ ॥ ਤਾ ਤੇ ਭਏ ਪ੍ਰਸੰਨਿ ਗੁਰਦੇਵਾ ॥ ਤਿਨ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਜਬ ਆਇਸ ਮੁਹਿ ਦੀਯਾ ॥ ਤਬ ਹਮ ਜਨਮ ਕਲੂ ਮਹਿ ਲੀਯਾ ॥ 4 ॥ ਚਿਤ ਨਾ ਭਯੋ ਹਮਰੋ ਆਵਨ ਕਹ ॥ ਚੁਭੀ ਰਹੀ ਸ੍ਰੁਤਿ ਪ੍ਰਭਿ ਚਰਨਨ ਮਹਿ ॥ ਜਿਉ ਤਿਉ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਹਮ ਕੋ ਸਮਝਾਯੋ ॥ ਇਮ ਕਹਿਕੈ ਇਹ ਲੋਕ ਪਠਾਯੋ ॥ 5 ॥ In these Pankitis it is clear that Vaheguru ordered Guru Sahib (after they become totally one) to go to the world and even though, Guru Sahib jee did not want to come, still as per Hukam, He came and took Avtaar in Kaljug. This proves that in Gurmat, totally union between the Jeev and Vaheguru does take place but the Jeev does not get annihilated in this process i.e. does not lose identity. All the Pankitis in Gurbani that talk about oneness with Vaheguru mean that the union is perfect but all the Pankitis that promise the Jeev that by following Gurmat, he would get everlasting bliss prove that the Jeev is not annihilated because in order to have everlasting bliss, one has to have consciousness. The consciousness of the Jeev is totally tuned in with Vaheguru and there is not difference in opinion or thought but the identity is not deleted. The Jeev merges in Vaheguru and enjoys everlasting life. When need be, the Jeev comes back as per the Pankiti - Gurmukh Aavai Jaae Nisung||" What the panj pyare plant in hirda at the time of amrit sinchaar. Vaheguru himself. Please read my post again carefuly, which was based on "raaj na chaho..." pankti. I mean true love of Vaheguru through his charan kamal (naam) - i.e. ceaseless naam devotion where not a breath goes without naam, for me this is liberation, but like I said the only difference between bhagats is how far in they have gone. No doubt when there is ceaseless naam then one is deathless/immortal/pain free, sorrow free. This is not some easy thing to get. A lack of understanding (as you percieve) of gurmat is not an indicator of anyone lacking gurmat bhagti. People can be wrong on topics but this does not mean we can say knowingly that they are "totally devoid of gurmat bhagti". Bhraava, I surely don't know what gurmat love is or I would have reached the objective of life. And I will never know gurmat love even if I do lakh vaar gurshabad 'veechar' if you mean analysing and studying by veechar. Only when he blesses me with his love will I know it, and that will be through naam. Bhagat Ravidaas Ji says on ang 345 ਬੇਗਮ ਪੁਰਾ ਸਹਰ ਕੋ ਨਾਉ ॥ Baegam Puraa Sehar Ko Naao || Baygumpura, 'the city without sorrow', is the name of the town. ਦੂਖੁ ਅੰਦੋਹੁ ਨਹੀ ਤਿਹਿ ਠਾਉ ॥ Dhookh Andhohu Nehee Thihi Thaao || There is no suffering or anxiety there. ਨਾਂ ਤਸਵੀਸ ਖਿਰਾਜੁ ਨ ਮਾਲੁ ॥ Naan Thasavees Khiraaj N Maal || There are no troubles or taxes on commodities there. ਖਉਫੁ ਨ ਖਤਾ ਨ ਤਰਸੁ ਜਵਾਲੁ ॥੧॥ Khouf N Khathaa N Tharas Javaal ||1|| There is no fear, blemish or downfall there. ||1|| ਅਬ ਮੋਹਿ ਖੂਬ ਵਤਨ ਗਹ ਪਾਈ ॥ Ab Mohi Khoob Vathan Geh Paaee || Now, I have found this most excellent city. ਊਹਾਂ ਖੈਰਿ ਸਦਾ ਮੇਰੇ ਭਾਈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ Oohaan Khair Sadhaa Maerae Bhaaee ||1|| Rehaao || There is lasting peace and safety there, O Siblings of Destiny. ||1||Pause|| ਕਾਇਮੁ ਦਾਇਮੁ ਸਦਾ ਪਾਤਿਸਾਹੀ ॥ Kaaeim Dhaaeim Sadhaa Paathisaahee || God's Kingdom is steady, stable and eternal. ਦੋਮ ਨ ਸੇਮ ਏਕ ਸੋ ਆਹੀ ॥ Dhom N Saem Eaek So Aahee || There is no second or third status; all are equal there. ਆਬਾਦਾਨੁ ਸਦਾ ਮਸਹੂਰ ॥ Aabaadhaan Sadhaa Masehoor || That city is populous and eternally famous. ਊਹਾਂ ਗਨੀ ਬਸਹਿ ਮਾਮੂਰ ॥੨॥ Oohaan Ganee Basehi Maamoor ||2|| Those who live there are wealthy and contented. ||2|| ਤਿਉ ਤਿਉ ਸੈਲ ਕਰਹਿ ਜਿਉ ਭਾਵੈ ॥ Thio Thio Sail Karehi Jio Bhaavai || They stroll about freely, just as they please. ਮਹਰਮ ਮਹਲ ਨ ਕੋ ਅਟਕਾਵੈ ॥ Meharam Mehal N Ko Attakaavai || They know the Mansion of the Lord's Presence, and no one blocks their way. ਕਹਿ ਰਵਿਦਾਸ ਖਲਾਸ ਚਮਾਰਾ ॥ Kehi Ravidhaas Khalaas Chamaaraa || Says Ravi Daas, the emancipated shoe-maker: ਜੋ ਹਮ ਸਹਰੀ ਸੁ ਮੀਤੁ ਹਮਾਰਾ ॥੩॥੨॥ Jo Ham Seharee S Meeth Hamaaraa ||3||2|| Whoever is a citizen there, is a friend of mine. ||3||2|| Please note, the avastha in that shabad is indeed of total oneness with Vaheguru! This concept is just beyond our understanding.

You have made many assumptions on my vews and your reply contains many things irrelevent to my post. All I have to say is, Sri Jap Ji Sahib contains the complete gurmat philosophy. What is the end, i.e. the peak of Sri Jap Ji Sahib and there fore Gurmat Philosophy? Answer: Sachkhand. And what do we learn about Vaheguroo from the pauri on Sachkhand? Answer: 1)Vaheguru resides in Sachkhand (sachkhand is vaheguru anyway) 2) Vaheguru CREATES, WATCHES, showers NADAR and ENJOYS watching, ie. ' kar kar vaekhai nadhar nihaal' and 'vaekhai vigasai kar veechaar' Guru Sahib also says: ਰਾਜੁ ਨ ਚਾਹਉ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਨ ਚਾਹਉ ਮਨਿ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਚਰਨ ਕਮਲਾਰੇ ॥ I do not seek power, and I do not seek liberation. My mind is in love with Your Lotus Feet. A gursikh's liberation is to LOVE VAHEGURU, this is through the charan kamal of vaheguru, i.e. naam. Any gursikh fully devoted to naam is liberated, the only difference between bhagats is how deep into that ocean which they have become one with they have dived. Now remember, guru sahib tell us that about Vaheguru sahib How he Vigase from Sachkhand. those who are one with him expereince the same.My liberation is to be with my pati Vaheguru, I leave it to him with whatever he wants to do with me and that is every avastha for me. And this Vaheguru is not just some state of being, he is an ocean of love which he allows his liberated bhagats to enjoy constantly.

Its interesting to note that there has been a thread on spirituality on a Sikh messageboard and not a single mention of naam once. Naam bina sabh koor galee hocheea (btw i dont mean to write so many posts in one go, but the edit function is not working or I would have added these bits to my first post in the thread).

Absolutely every obstacle there is is removed sehaj naal while following Guru Sahib humbly daily, following Guru Sahib with every breath in fact. For what other purpose do you think maharaj has laid out this lifestyle for us? There is no other way, no shortcuts. Even if you find a way to deal with one particular thing, this is not the Sikh way to isolate a problem or aim for a particular thing, such an achievement will only increase ego. Maharaj has already written plenty of times in Gurbani, we can control plenty of vikaars, overcome various obstacles, achieve various things, but doing so is absolutely worthless. You will spend so much time on achieving one thing, when we could just humbly get on with devotion to naam and let your Peer Satguru take care of the rest.

For whatever "spiritual achievements" you want there are 1429 angs of Gurbani and a lifestyle laid out for us by Guru Sahib. Follow obediently, love gurbani and naam and everything will come naturally. All guru sahib has done hukam to us is to do prema bhagti and follow his rehat to aid us in this prema bhagti. Why put your mind to other things? And if it is something you need to achieve, then as I mentioned, thats what this whole reason for this gurbani and this marag given to us.

Yes I am aware of the lyrics of this particular qwalli. You don't see a problem with ragi singhs praising muslim peers? sakhi shahbaz kalandar, etc.

Here's a video of a ragi jatha singing a well known sufi song, damadam mast kalandar, this song praises various muslim figures (sort of like pirs). This does not seem right. on the youtube channel this is what is written: EL-0044-1634-576100 / MOBILE-0044-7855 232869 / EMAIL-surajjogi@yahoo.co.uk ADDRES- (This Raagi Jatha can sing Gurbani with translation in punjabi,english,hindi, sindhi, urdu, Labanaki-The Great Guaarki and persian-Farsi, this jatha sang Mool-Mantra in 56 languages which is underview of Gunnuis book of world record, Bhai sahib Suraj is Degree holder and graduate from rajasthan University in 1976, this jatha's ustad is their respected father Brahm-Gyani hisholiness Sant Baba Ajit Singh sahib)ADRESS:- BHAI SAHIB BHAI HARBANS SINGH SURAJ & BHAI SAHIB BHAI JOGENDER SINGH JOGI ALWAR WALE(companion of maskeen sahib), 78 COPENHAGEN ROAD, GILLINGHAM, KENT, ME7 4RU, ENGLAND,UK.

http://www.sikhsangat.com/Index.php?/topic/68323-facial-hair-on-bibia/

We all know about this issue, the recent issue with satkaarjog Bibi Balpreet Kaur Ji has brought it to light among the wider world. I just wanted to share some personal thoughts on it. Disclaimer: Whatever I write here, please do not let it detract from the fact that Bibia who keep excessive facial hair are stronger people than I or many others in this world are or ever will be, and their dedication to Gursikhi is an inspiration to us all. On this aspect these bibia have truly given their head to maharaj and I bow down to them for that reason. (If you don't want to read a massive post, scroll down to the bit which starts with the title 'Solutions?') Having given the above disclaimer, I present to you a couple of things which I think we (the panth) have brushed under the carpet for fear of seeming as if bibia with excessive facial are not being respected, or we are saying something against gurmat in regards to keeping kes. Firstly, lets accept that after a certain small amount, there comes a point when the amount of hair simply is excessive for a female. By excessive it means that the female simply should not have that amount of facial hair. Now someone may wish to argue; how can we determine at which point its excessive? I think deep down we all know its common sense. A couple of hairs, natural eyebrows, even a dark upper lip are totally normal amounts of hair for a bibi, but a beard and a FULL moustach are simply not normal for a woman. They are not part of the design of a female. In the past this was NOT a problem for Sikhi bibia, even in India today, gursikh bibi's who don't remove kes have hardly ANY visible facial hair. Its clearly something to do with the environment, food, other new factors not present before. Probably something related to life in western countries. I think the above is something people are scared to say for the reasons mentioned earlier, but its never right to brush things under the carpet just for short term convinence, let us atleast accept its not normal, then we can work hard as a kaum to actually fix the issue in a gurmat way. Denying that there is a problem is not really helping anyone. Solutions? Firstly, whats NOT a solution and never will be, - removing the hair externally in any way shape or form, be it electrolysis, laser removal, waxing, plucking etc. ALL of these are a NO. For an amritdhari any of these actions is a bajjar kurehit. Bleaching is also a breach of rehat. Solution 1 - Intense bhagti (naam simran, path and ardaas). Just like in India and elsewhere where organisations like Sarab Rog Ka Aukhad Naam Mission hold healing camps for disesases, the panth should organise camps/smagams for bibia in such a situation for them to do bhagti and ardaas collectively. There is nothing that naam, bani and ardas cannot achieve. Nothing is outside of Guru Sahib's power. However, once again, this fear of admitting that excessive facial hair on bibia is abnormal is preventing such things from being organised. My advice to bibia in this situation would be to commit to intense bhagti, and ask others to do ardas for you, especially kamayee vale gursikhs. In the meantime stay strong and have total faith in the power of Guru Sahib. There is nothing wrong in asking for Guru Sahib to remove this obstacle without you doing anything against Gurmat. The fact you are turning to Guru Sahib to fix it and not worldly means like removing is in itself a kirpa of Guru Sahib. Look to examples such as Vasu Bhardawaj and others who were cured of cancer, those who have been cured of leprosy, etc. Alongside such bhagti, things such as bhagti, ardaas and ishnaan at Sri Bangla Sahib, asthan of Sri Guru Harkrishan Sahib Ji (jis dithe sabh dukh jaye), harmandar sahib ishnan etc. Solution 2- Medical route (alongside bhagti) . There is nothing wrong at all in fixing the cause of the excessive hair. All the tests should be carried out as early as possible and all the medical routes that do not breach Gurmat should be explored. Perhaps methods such as ayurveda, reflexology, etc. should also be explored. Further solutions- Panth to take the issue seriously. Its time we cared for our bibia and start taking this issue seriously. As a panth we should invest in medical research on this issue and ways of fixing it. Please forgive me if I have offended anyone or said anything against gurmat. The above are just my own personal views. I would like to hear your thoughts.

It would be just amazing to find any such records... I wonder maybe genealogist type researchers could help? Like the ones on the programme 'Who do you think you are'.

Thank you this is very interesting, its something that can change the view on this topic. Having said that, nowadays it seems more and more safer to stick to foods we make ourselves.

I didn't really bother writing, 'in my view' before every sentence I write. The very fact that I am a nobody who has just come onto a discussion forum, is me in myself acknowledging that I have no authority to anyone. I am sorry about how my post came across and will work on it. I am no one to dare even thinking I can force the sangat to do anything.

If you don't agree with me, or think I am wrong, there is no need to mock me. Please do ardaas to guide me onto the right path! I am not trying to act like any 'panthic police' or authority, I just put my views and a request based on those views forward. Once again I am a nyana bacha and invite you to educate me. 'foolish ji', as far as I am aware ethanol is not actually present in fruit and neither is it natural. Maybe I am wrong. Please forgive my mistakes.

Please be aware that many of our gurdwarae use ghee bought from stores to use in langar and for degh. Some of this sold ghee is not 100% ghee but contains other ingredients. One such ingredient is ethyl butyrate, this contains ethanol, ethanol is actual drinking alcohol (sharaab). This is certainly totally forbidden for Gursikhs, imagine if someone came and put a tiny drop of sharaab in your pot of gheeo, you would not eat it, this is exactly what the company is doing. Please make your gurdwarae and friends and family aware of this and ensure that you and your Gurdwarae only buy and use that ghee which is 100% and does not contain any added ingredients or chemicals, ideally, make the gheeo at the Gurdwara Sahib. It is a must that we all inform Gurdwara langar and degh sevadars, committee and put up a sign to tell local sangat not to bring such ghee. One example of a brand with this added ingredient is East End butter ghee, which lists its ingredients as; Butterfat 99.8% Minimum, Moisture 0.2% Maximum, flavouring (Ethyl Butyrate 0.01%). (Ingredients taken from: http://www.ocado.com...r-Ghee/53271011) I think the one by East End called PURE butter ghee is ok, but even then check to see if there are any added ingredients. Same applies to the other brands such as KTC, Pride, etc. I think its best we avoid any ghee with anything added.

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The shabad is not saying that Ganika reached Sackhand/became one with Vaheguru. She was saved in a relative sense compared to what her fate would have been had she not turned to bhagti. She was saved from her bad karams, she was saved from the entire cycle of reincarnation etc. possibly refers to reaching one of the realms that she believed in, i.e. what she counted as liberation. Its not an insult as they nor anyone else would not be expected to know about vaheguru gurmantar until they met Satguru as only Satguru gives this mantar. If anything it simply saying that all mantars apart from Vaheguru mantar are limited. Karam Khand is hardly a waste of bhagti! Goodness me! 'Straight path' - no one said they were on a wrong path that they needed to be put on the 'straight path', they reached the highest thing anyone could without the Satguru and vaheguru mantar - thats actually a major praise to come from someone who believes in supremacy of vaheguru gurmantar above kirtam naam. Hardly a waste of bhagti as its that bhagti that caused them to be selected to be the greatest bhagats ever! In bhai sahib's views gyan khand was where the leaders of other faiths are, so people following other faiths can only get to gyan khand. When bhai sahib says that the bhagats reached karam khand without even being sikhs, without even having vaheguru gurmantar, thats possibly one of the greatest praises he could give them. Its an acknowledgement that even before becoming Sikhs they were among the greatest bhagats ever to exist as they must have done immense bhagti with the kirtam naam to reach karam khand. Its not insulting to say that the bhagats, just like every other soul that exists, needed the Satguru to get to sachkhand. Even today its the souls that have done immense bhagti in the paths that they have come from who become the best sikhs when they are incarnated into the janam where they recieve sikhi. Just another thought, its a well known sakhi that Sant Baba Attar Singh Ji's mother passed away without recieving amrit but was then brought back to life because she certainly did not deserve any punishment, but neither could she go to sachkhand - it was because how great she was and who she gave birth to that she was brought back to life to recieve amrit so that she could go to sachkhand. Now thats not an insult to mata ji, just the working principle that without being a Sikh of Satguru no one can reach sackhand.

Your classic retreat, bhasauria calling. Very mature. Completely unrelated to the topic or any views expressed in this thread (by myself anyway).

That does not mean she went to sachkhand. Being 'saved' can mean anything from being saved from hell, being saved from reincarnation, being saved from your wordly troubles etc. etc. If you read the descriptions of the khands before sachkhand, or even the heavens being in anyone of those (especially for non-sikhs) is comparitvely being liberated when comapred to other possible fates like reincarnation etc. How is it demeaning? How is it anything negative towards the bhagats in any way?

You earlier said that your problem was that according to osingh bhai sahib said "osinghs saying that only then once their bani was accepted, were they allowed in sachkhand." The quote you have given of osingh does not state that. On top of that, my very first post in this thread is clarifiying that osingh has written WRONGLY about Bhai Randhir Singh Ji's views. Also, osingh is not quoting, but paraphrasing (and wrongly too!). Dear God, what is with peoples' literacy these days!! I will break down once again what bhai sahib actually said on the matter; Bhagats reached karam khand through doing jaap of kirtam naam Bhagats were then called by Guru Sahib from sachkhand Bhagats became Sikhs, bhagats did ucharan of dhur ki bani. You may think the above is factually incorrect, but in no way is it insulting bhagats.

I still don't understand how that is insulting, incorrect (in your eyes) maybe, but not insulting. Please don't quote to me what osingh is saying as neither have I made that point nor has Bhai Sahib Bhai Randhir Singh. All that bhai sahib randhir singh said was that the bhagats only did ucharan of the bani that we follow after they had met Guru Sahib. Bhai Randhir Singh did not state "that only then once their bani was accepted, were they allowed in sachkhand". I am glad you take back your earlier statement. I don't see anyone stating that the bhagats are not in sachkhand, only that they got their through SatGuru Nanak Dev Ji. yaar, je kise ne goo khaana, khaan deo.

N30, you lack an understanding of the basic meaning of the word 'NAAM' - Naam means noun, i.e. a singular word. An entire peice of bani cannot be a kirtam naam. Anything more than one word is not a kirtam naam. Ik Oankaar is considered an entire bani in itself Mool mantar is not a single word it is a piece of bani, so doing jaap of mool mantar is not doing jaap of a kirtam naam but jaap of a composition. Satnaam is not one word, correct pad chedd 'Sat' and 'naam'. If i did jaap of 'sat' sat sat, then yes that would be jaap of a kirtam naam. If I did jaap of 'naam' naam naam, then yes that would be jaap of a kirtam naam. If I said 'sat naam' 'sat naam', I would be reciting Gurbani. And likewise to all other examples you have given exept for 'Raam'. As for 'Raam', your argument to prove that its both sargun and nirgun gyan is nonsensical. When referring to Vaheguru, Raam is one attribute of Vaheguru, i.e a kirtam naam. Other than that Gurbani has acknowledged that there was a historical figure called Raam, this does not give raam both nirgun and sargun gyan. If my mate's name is Gobind that doesn't suddenly make Gobind a satnam containing nirgun and sargun gyan because someone has that name! Same for sohang. Panj pyare ARE the Satguru!!! Once agin mool mantar is not a kirtam naam simply by virtue of the fact that its not a single noun, as the literal meaning of the phrase 'kirtam naam' is a noun, i.e. a single word, describing an attribute of Vaheguru. What mantars did they give and how were they so great as to know a satnaam mantar (as you beleive)? I have already explained how Raam is not satnaam. You have no proof that Ganika went to sachkhand upon reciting raam raam.

How is it insulting to the bhagats? How do you know whether Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh Ji knows Sachkhand or not? Are you Satguru? Are you in Sackhand? Once again no one said anything about compilation into Adi Granth so your point is invalid. All that is being said is that the bhagats met the Satguru before they reached Sachkhand, and it was only on meeting Satguru Ji and reaching Sachkhand that dhur ki bani was revealed to them. What has compilation of their bani into Sri Adi Granth have to do with this? But how do you know that the particular bani in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji was by Ganjshakar ji?

If I sang a complete line of a shabad ,eg. 'har har sant jana ki jeevan' it is obviously not a kirtam NAAM as; 1) An entire sentence is not a noun (Naam) 2) It is obviously a line of dhur ki bani and it comes only from the Guru, no human could come up with it himself. Now if i just did jap of the word 'Har', then I am reciting a kirtam naam as; 1)It is a noun (a naam) 2) It is not part of Gurbani, but even a non-sikh who has never heard of Gurbani could come up with the idea of japping 'Har'. To answer your question in simple English, no Bhai Sahib did not believe Gurbani was a kirtam naam, as that would just be illogical. He did however beleive that individual words that people may use to describe God in one word are kirtam NAAMS. Also, Ik oankaar is a self contained bani with itself. You just said yourself that a kirtam naam is one which does not include both sargun and nirgun, I agree with you completely, a kirtam naam is a name any one could come up with to descirbe one attribute of Vaheguru. Now can you tell me; 1) What other singular naam is there apart from 'Vaheguru', which contains both nirgun and sargun gyan i.e. Satnam? Remember an entire shabad of Gurbani can not be called a 'naam' as naam means noun, not an entire composition such as a Gurbani shabad. 2)What being apart from Satguru could know and reveal such a Naam?