sissy

what do u define as 'the step of faith'?...do u mean diverting that 20% of faith from ego etc to waheguru?

thankyou for illustrating this topic with that example...i think it is very helpful although its a bit sad to think that to be beautiful you have to have fair skin, brown eyes etc....lets remember that although most sikhs are punjabi/indian, sikhi is a lifetsyle that is open to people of all races and that a darker skinned green eyed sikh is as beautiful as any other so long as he respects waheguru ji....we are all god's children and therefore equally beautiful in one way or another talking of image have u ever noticed the irony of the fact that whilst the images of the gurus eg paintings in people's home and gurdwaras etc all show that the guru's were of a fit/athletic build, so many sikhs (punjabi/indians) are kind of...ahem...'volumptious'....considering the rising cases of obesity, heart disease, diabetes, hypertension etc......perhaps too many sikhs are blind to the message of the guru's that we need to respect our bodies and taking care of our bodies...ie not too much langar!...also exercise can be so mediative...therefore exercise is a form of simran.......try it! jogging with ur kara in hand is really cool! <_<

kumi....if u read the article there are people who have practically had large holes in their faces....without reconstructive surgery they may die of eg infection....would u still disagree with plastic surgery just bcos it 'looks gross'... i've never come across anything in sikhi that says sikhs should avoid naything that 'looks gross'... it is interesting to get ur opinion...but what is the view of SIKHI on it bhul chuk maph...

mmm this topic has had 88 views and 3 replies...would any body else like to share their thoughts... does anybody else find it hard to think those with disabilities/learning difficulties exist because of paaps in previous lives...?

i was just reading an article about reconstructive plastic sugery for people who have suffered in accidents etc..http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,8123-1536904,00.html sikhi tends to encourage the maintenance of what is natural.... so what would are the differnt 'sikh' views on reconstructive (not cosmetic) plastic surgery?... 1) maybe God chose for the accident to happen and therefore the victim should bear the result and not try to return to their former image bcos the change in theie appearance was due to guru's hukum? 2) the accident means the person has lost e.g. their natural face (or any other body part), ie the one they were born with, and therefore plastic surgery is acceptable in trying to restore their original appearance one may not be able to argue that the guru's did not conisder such an event because apparently the ancient egyptains and hindu's may have done nose reconstructions approx 3000 years ago and also, the guru's who battled surely had some awareness of horrific injuries and their consequences on the human appearance....

hi...just to clarify when i wrote (humility) i didn't mean that sonia deol and her mum were being humble...i meant that we should be humble in that we should respect the views of others, even if they are different from ours....but we should be aware when sikhs are being misrepresented by such views thanks for your point about it being hard for men to keep their hair..interesting but i would be grateful if you could explain it a bit more.... in the east , yes women tradionally dont reveal hair to anyone out of respect but men also wear turbans eg arabs etc in the west i think it is very hard for women to keep body hair compared to men.... .

thanks veer ji, im learning lots... regarding 2) if not everyone can be a khalsa, can everyone be a sikh? we need to distinguish sikh and khalsa...i like to keep things simple...sikh=learmer, so really everyone is a sikh even if they follow a different faith!...a more focused answer is that sikh = someone who follows the principles set out by the gurus and khalsa = a sikh who follows the rules set down by guru gobind singh ji but if waheguru ji is in guru gobind singh ji, surely that means waheguru set the rules and therefore all sikhs are meant to be khalsa or maybe the aim of being in the khalsa is more important thn whether or not u attain amrit because we need purpose re 3) how does kabir's absence of friends tie in with the concept of sangat that is central to sikhi? seems a bit contradictory....

good suggestions...just a few points 1) PCOS can't be cured, its a syndrome i..e a collection of symptoms experinced by someone...the severity of each symtom may increase or decrease, it is VERY variable...some symptoms occur in some and not in others, some symptoms occur in youth and disappear or stay forever, others appear in adulthood 2) is amrit so exclusive that even a medical condition means that one cannot take amrit? surely amrit is more than just abiding by rules and it is more impotrant to focus on the individual ie their commitment to god, than how well they superficially grow hair.....u say not everyone can be a true khalsa...why is that? did guru gobind singh ji say that? isn't that like creating a caste system within sikhi which in itself condemns caste systems! pride SHOULD not exist in the khalsa...but if the khalsa is only accessible to an elite or certain group, there is an increased risk of pride 3) one can have no ego and still not want to be bullied and still want to go out in public without being stared and jibed at....it is important not to have ego but it is also important to achieve a certain level of self respect and confidence bhul chuk maph

in polycystic ovarian syndrome (PCOS) drugs e.g. the oral contraceptive pill can be given to try to regulate the hormones.....sometimes this helps to reduce the hirsutism, sometimes it doesn't... for those with very severe hirsutism eg a thick, full beard, medical treatment often does not change the hair significantly and dr's can only recommend cosmetic removal of the hair....e.g. i actually know someone with PCOS....she has the hirsutism problem....she has done everything possible to sort her hormones out eg taken medication, tried alternative therapy etc....even when her hormones are normalised (eg normal testosterone and other hormones and proteins that are involved)she has hair in places that a man, but not a woman, usually has....it completely wrecked her confidence, she was bullied etc....PCOS can be bad enough without the hirsutism because it can, NOT ALWAYS, lead to infertility and a range of other problems....so this girl started having hair removal at the areas where the hair was abnormally present and thicker than usual......this increased her self esteem and happiness....in theory it may be contrary to the khalsa saying 'don't cut ur hair' but it meant she could go to the gurdwara and confidently engage in her sangat without feeling ashamed or different, she could wear her hair up so that she didn't risk that her hair falling into food when she wanted to help prepare langar...so indirectly the hair removal, in these exceptional medical circumstances, aided this persons sikhi and allowed her to boost the sangat (......i could go into the view of the medicalisiation of society bit i'll spare u!) because hirsutism is not life threatening there is a lack of understanding about the mechanisms of normal and abnormal hair growth etc and therefore no real medical treatments although one should be grateful that the hirsutism associated with some cases of PCOS are not life threatening, one must acknowledge the negative effect it can have on a female's self esteem....it could lead to depression the opposite scenario is also interesting....some men naturally have very little hair or have medical problems that mean they have no body hair whatsoever....in such cases we have to be careful in sikhi that we support the growth of hair that is naturally on the body and that people with little body hair need not try to attain hair by taking testosterone pills without a medical need etc because that is unnatural and also contradicts respecting waheguru ji's natural law......but then we may need to limit the extent to which we support the growth of all hair on the body to empathise with females eg with PCOS...its a bit tricky

this year i am studying endocrinology (hormones!!) and certain conditions have got me thinking........ we have studied a couple of health disorders e.g. polycystic ovarian syndrome (PCOS - very common, 1 in 8 women) and cushings syndrome where hirsutism (excess hair) occurs im not talking just a bit of extra hair that can be somehow disguised and remain uncut as often occurs with many indian women anyway (and therefore many sikh women)....im talking about women with e.g. beards that can grow to be as full as a man's beard and are too coarse too bleach, women with thick hair on their chest, stomach and back like that of a post-pubertal male in today's society, east or west, keeping such hair is not tolerated. also, because the strength of this hair is associated with an underlying problem and is not physiological, would sikhi warrant removing only the abnormally strong hair? eg women should still keep the hair on their head uncut, but are allowed eg laser on their faces.... from a theoretical point of view, we could say that in the perfect sikh community, the respect for hair would predominate and people with such health problems and subsequent hairiness could be accepted and loved with their beards etc... but lets be realistic...even if people are accepting, women can still feel a lower sense of self esteem and security (eg insecurity about their appearance, relationships, marriage and passing the trait to their children etc) and although we could say to an effected women 'do ur paat, remember waheguru, don't let the hair distract u'.....in real life, a women might still be effected detrimentally by the increased hair growth as a result of the health problem..... i think waheguru ji is loving and maybe sympathetic to sikhs with such medical problems.... but then if waheguru ji gave us our genes etc, maybe he wants certain people to be hairy/ill/disabled etc for certain reasons in terms of reincarnation and sikhi, are people who are hairier more hairy in this life because they cut their hair in a previous life and waheguru ji is trying to 'impose' hair on people to make them realise its importance (????) this issue is similar to what i understand is being discussed by the akj at the moment (i may be wrong, bhul chuk maph)...that is the issue or people (men and women!) growing the hair on their head and male beards etc but plucking eyebrows, waxing arms etc where do we draw the line? can we draw the line? maybe guru ji has suggested to us the importance of hair and it is up to the global sikh community to define the 'boundaries of hair removal' for themselves so that we can fit into the world without compromising our beliefs and identity.... a woman with eg polycytic ovarian syndrome with hirsutism does not need her beard to have a sikh identity because guru gobind singh ji's ideal was based on uncut hair of a more normal distribution and coarseness of hair(?), so maybe so long as a woman with polycytic ovarian syndrome and hirsutism does not cut her hair on her head and does not remove hair that is in the places that one expects hair on the human body and the hair is of normal thickness for those regions of the body, she can remove her 'abnormal' /pathological/illness-induced beard whilst upholding sikh identity and worrying that she is going against sikhi? bhul chuck maph....i promise to write concisely one day........

in terms of sikhi, i think these ladies may not understand guru gobind singh ji's idea of the khalsa and the importance of hair...there comments may be acceptable as a general comment on faith....i have queries about the whole hair thing... in the context of modern society, i think the rise in the number of people who disrespect their bodies by being inactive, eating excessively, drinking, smoking, doing drugs etc is as big, if not a bigger insult to the amazing body given to us by guru ji ...perhaps moreso than cutting hair. (??)...but then hair maybe distinguished because it also has a role in identity guru angad dev ji taught us the importance of physical fitness....and it is all well and good growing hair to 'protect ur skull if ur hit on the head in battle' or something (sipahi)...but the hair is of less pragmatic use if people are not fit enough to even walk away from their enemy without tiring! no disrespect but haven't u ever noticed how most gyani's etc are overweight....surely not the sign of a balanced lifestyle i think there is a reason for the order in which things were revealed to us by waheguru ji through the guru's... guru nanak dev ji came 1st with the fundamental principles that we, as sikhs, should primarily follow (maybe the fact that caste system and paternalism etc still exist and influences most of us and our families shows that we have failed before we've even reached the teachings of other gurus, but thats a bit pessimistic!) then guru angad dev ji taught us about respecting our body by keeping fit etc then came the ideals of langar etc then came the more sipahi ideas the idea of a strict identity with uncut hair etc came last in the order to me this suggests that in order to develop into the sikhs that the gurus and therefore waheguru wants us to be, we should go through the motions in the order that they were given to us as far as possible...even though we recognise that the same light of waheguru was in guru nanak dev ji as in guru gobind singh ji on that basis u could say that uncut hair is not the most important because it came last in the order....that is not to say that uncut is not important, but is just to say that we need to retain some perspective about the relative importance of things within sikhi....we need to have the right ideals and beliefs before we take on the physical identity of a sikh in public....i think this is particularly important because if someone gives the physical appearance of a sikh but does not act/behave as a sikh should, the whole sangat is let down and sikhi gets tarnished.....it is such a shame when this happens because sikhi is so beautiful.... sorry that my argument seems to have drifted onto random other topics ultimately, we need to respect the views of those ladies as their views (humility) but they should not say that their opinions are the views of the khalsa because guru gobind singh ji explicity instructed us not to cut hair and they would be misrepresenting sikh heritage bhul chuk maph karnee..

manmat means....? sorry, i'm somewhat lacking on the lingo!

Tavprasad singh....when u wrote ur first letter to this guy, how did u know that non vegetarian food and alcohol was going to be served? because it's at haveli?

hi.... gupt daasan daas quoted 'jogu n BgvI kpVI jogu n mYly vyis] nwnk Gir bYiTAw jogu pweIAY siqgur kY aupdyis ] "Yoga is not obtained by wearing saffron robes; Yoga is not obtained by wearing dirty robes. Guru ji says, Yoga is obtained even while sitting in your own home, by following the Teachings of the True Guru." (SGGSJ Ang 1421) ' however, i would interpret this differently....'Yoga is not obtained by wearing saffron robes; Yoga is not obtained by wearing dirty robes.'...i don't think waheguru ji is so concerned with our aesthetics that e.g. red should not be work at a sikh wedding....it is pyar for the guru's tecahings which are paramount i can understand why there may be a historical basis for choosing particular colours eg the khalsa blue, orange etc....however, i believe that waheguru ji is in everything....sounds corny but i see/feel waheguru when i see kids playing, when i hear laughter etc so yes i find waheguru in beautiful things and therefore also find waheguru in all colours of the rainbow that waheguru has generously given us to illuminate our world (imagine a black and white world?!)...but i also see waheguru in people's tears and feel waheguru's strength when someone is crying in my arms....waheguru's teachings are available to us in the good and bad, in happiness and strife...and in my opinion, can be found in all colours equally... on that basis, i think we should appreciate all that waheguru has given us rather than concentrating on times eg when the hindu's wore red or something, to restrict our choices today...so i would say wear red if u like...at minimum make sure that u understand the anand karaj....too many people have sikh weddings, have the anand karaj without having a clue what they are doing, what it means etc! blind faith is more of a problem than colours...however i appreciate that the people fear that we are losing touch with sikh heritage etc bhul chuk maph...

firstly i would like to clarify...sikhs believe in reincarnation, yes? if so.... with regard to reincarnation, i have come across the view that those born with congenital illnesses and/or disabilities (visual, hearing, intellectual) have those problems as a result of something that occurred in their previous life... using the principles of reincarnation i can understand why this is said, however in itself i find it really hard to deal with and accept... when i think of waheguru ji, i think of waheguru's pyar and this idea seems rather close to the idea of god providing a form of punishment (assuming that one views illness and disability as less preferable than a healthy human body)... one could argue that waheguru ji is not punishing people with illness etc but is allowing people to experience this to provide their soul and others with a particular experience which will make them value the human body and mind more... but since hearing this view i have feel a bit disturbed...through personal relationships and (moreso) work i know many people that are physically disabled, have epilepsy and learning disabilities that require them to live in a residential home....and i find it hard to think that they are in that situation because they may have sinned in a previous life or something!!!???!!! and i would guess that they had done something quite significant to be reincarnated with things like learning disabilities.... also, if it is true in sikhi that one can be reincarnated with illness/disability as a result of past sins, doesn't this create a fear of sinning and God?....one should not fear sinning and God...one should understand what is right and wrong and shouldt trust that no matter what one chooses - right or wrong - waheguru ji will always be there to enlighten us and guide us to what is good and right... sorry if i have hurt anyone's feelings with this topic...it is quite sensitive, especially if you know people who are disabled in any way...but that is precisely why i had to ask about it..... sorry for the essay and if i have been unclear anywhere...stream of conciousness!

lol <_< good one! :wub: