munjoth

Guru Jis Siphai, firstly the bani is by sri guru nanak dev ji. Secondly the context of the tuk is a referal to a gurmukh, the highest state of mind from sant,sadhu,bhagat,brahamgyani. Thirdly gurbani explains WHO is a gurmukh one who has sehaj, one whose mind goes into 10sm akaash, one who is in prakash 24/7. Thirdly if we apply NAAD to the guru it wouldnt make sense because NAAD is something the mind gets attached to and is GIVEN by the guru: jw kI idsit nwd ilv lwgY ]1] rhwau ] jaa kee dhisatt naadh liv laagai ||1|| rehaao || by His Glance of Grace, we are lovingly attuned to the Sound-current of the Naad. ||1||Pause|| Bhagat Kabeer Ji Siree Raag 92

Our guru's were brahm gianis so it was all God in their physical body. Everything they do, talk was all done by God. ^^ This is wrong, our gurus had status of SATGURU, brahagyani is below gurmukh and guru. It is when you defeat the 5 evils completly, maya becomes your slave. ^^ This again is achieved early on, this is when one has the panch shabads and this entraps the 5 demons. Simran is performed daily so that one does not get trapped into kaals (devils) jaal (net) upon leaving this body. so if you come accross one, fall at their feet, wash their feet and you will be ferried across ^^ Again, guru granth sahib ji teaches differently, if we bow to a human body we arent bowing to that persons status of mind we are infact bowing to kaal and we havent recognised where god is sitting and watching us! This then confirms to kaal and god thathe hasnt recognised where god resides because he is still bowing before maya and kaal. To get across the bhav sagar gurbani says: Satgur hai bautha shabad ligavan haar, thai pavan pavko jaal naa akaar, thai sacha saach nai bhavjaaltharan har Then how do we get aboard the satgurus boat: Satgur hai bautha KIT BID CHARA JAI? (gurbani is saying how can i climb aboard this boat) Satgur bhani jau chala bhauthi beta ayai (the one that walks in the pana, will, of the satguru shall climb aboard this boat)

****** iqqu srvrVY BeIly invwsw pwxI pwvku iqnih kIAw ] (12-2, Awsw, mÚ 1) ******In that pool, people have made their homes, but the water there is as hot as fire!******* pMkju moh pgu nhI cwlY hm dyKw qh fUbIAly ]1] (12-3, Awsw, mÚ 1) In the swamp of emotional attachment, their feet cannot move. I have seen them drowning there. ||1|| ^^ Gurbani is slapping the mind, it is saying that u have made your home in the bikh sagar (sea of posion) and agaan sagar (sea of fire), in bani this is a referal to BHAV SAGAR, BIKH SAGAR, AGAN SAGAR, SUKH SAGAR, TRIGUN. In this trigun there is no peace only pain one must cross this by doing abhyaas on gurmanter and learning the theory (akath katha) as well as practical (simran) You have forgotten the Lord; your virtues shall wither away. ||1||Pause|| nw hau jqI sqI nhI piVAw mUrK mugDw jnmu BieAw ] (12-4, Awsw, mÚ 1) I am not celibate, nor truthful, nor scholarly. I was born foolish and ignorant into this world. pRxviq nwnk iqn kI srxw ijn qU nwhI vIsirAw ]2]3] (12-5, Awsw, mÚ 1) Prays Nanak, I seek the Sanctuary of those who have not forgotten You, O Lord! ||2||3|| ^^ Satogun is where one is very virtuous, a mind that is very virtuous will find it easier to do meditation and concentrate but those that are rajogun or tamogun will find it very difficult. As we spend more breathes on rajo or tamo the path to satogun is closed off. If one does no meditation he cant get to satogun, from where we shall cross the bhav sagar and enter the 4th realm (dasam dwaar)

besoft: Satguru siri guru nanak dev ji came to this world with the title of SATGURU and GURU. The title is now passed onto satguru siri guru granth sahib ji and the our first guru is panj payara. Everything is saach/god. The only difference is in this game GOD/SAACH/VAHEGURU has given role/duty to play for the: mind, guru and satguru. The satguru cant be affected by MAYA OR KAAL, the satguru is the only one that can liberate u, but to be liberated you must go meet the satguru chautha paad/dasam dwaar/nijghar to get liberated!

gurmuiK nwdM gurmuiK vydM gurmuiK rihAw smweI ] (2-8, jpu, mÚ 1) The Guru's Word is the Sound-current of the Naad; the Guru's Word is the Wisdom of the Vedas; the Guru's Word is all-pervading. ^^ The translation here is wrong. firstly gurbani is talking about avaasta of a GURMUKH: Gurmukha Andar Sehaj Hai Munn Chara Dasmi Akaash.... gurmuiK nwdM Gurbani is saying here the Gurmukh is always connected to the Naad (first comes anahad shabad, then anhad bani, then sehaj dhun, then toor then NAAD) gurmuiK vydM The gurmukhs bachan is equivlent to the veda, why? Well the vedas are considered very highly and pure and guru ji is saying the bachan of a gurmukh is the equivlent gurmuiK rihAw smweI ^^ the gurmukh is always SMAAH (merged) with saach. Gurmukh is the highest avasta of the mind, first is sant, then sadhu, then bhagat, then braham gyani THEN it is gurmukh. A gurmukh can go anywhere (the mind) to any of the assans it wishes. Gurbani is talking about status of the mind here not physical related.

it appears besoft u have opened up alot of threads. It also appears you are looking for a path to god. If you want to know in FINE FINE detail what naam is, how to get out of this bhav sagar (terrible world ocean) how to do meditation. I suggest you goto this website: http://simran.info/pmkc/ This is akath katha, performed by bhai sewa singh ji - everything he is saying is referenced with gurbani and he is telling the practical way to meet god as per satguru siri guru granth sahib ji. Once you, or anyone else has listened the mp3s/dvds then open a thread and ask about the bits you didnt understand. As all the questions you are asking won't be satisfied, why? Well most gurmukhs on this board, along with me, are in trigun. The aarths/meanings of gurbani are most also done in trigun, the aarths are done with ones own thinking. The truth meaning of gurbani can be given by those that have vaasa (path and staying) in the nijghar (true home of the mind): Eh Hi Bani Mahapurkhanki, Nijghar Vaasa Hoei.

Yes you are right, but we should recite SATNAAM SHRI VAHEGUROO JI, not waheguru on its own ^^ why is this? As you are making references to bhai gurdass ji he also says: VAHEGURU GURMANTER HAI JAPP HUMAI KOEI also when u do swaas swaas, swaas giraas or rom rom simran as per jugtis that siri guru granth sahib ji has given us, there is no way u say: SATNAAM SHRI VAHEGUROO JI. The logic wouldnt work. gurbani says: Shabad guru surat dhun chela. the SHABAD that is vaheguru is the GURU. Also the gurmanter is to take u to sunn, this is where u will start to hear the naam. From practical examples my grandad and dad having practiced swaas swaas and swaas giraas jugtis and with the blessing of the satguru they now hear the anhad shabad. The practice of some gurmukhs is so good that they have to say vaheguru once to let go of the 5 senses and go into sunn where they mind is awakened from this maya.

satnaam is NOT naam, in gurbani it is clearly stated that NAAM can not be written down, NAAM can not been seen. NAAM can only be heard and is given by the satguru when u enter his domain. SATNAAM means naam that has come from sat (sach/truth/god)...in gurbani naam is also called NAAM NIRANJAN.....the only way to get to NAAM is by chanting the gurus manter which is VAHEGURU. All other manters will not allow u to get to naam, and without naam there is no mukti, there is no way to meet god but to get to naam u must first japp the gurus manter which is vaheguru. As for moolmanter, we say moolmanter is the first pauri of jap ji sahib BUT gurbani says mool manter is NAAM: mool ma(n)thra har naam rasaaein kahu naanak pooraa paaeiaa ||5|| Guru Nanak Dev Ji Raag Maaroo 1040

Naam is voice Of God.Kindly confirm ? ^^ Yes: tera mukra sohava sehaj dhun bani Why should GOD create a voice. ^^ This is like asking why did god create this universe, this world, this body, this trigun maya. Everything belongs to god he can do as he pleases. All we can do is listen to the naam that is very anand Naam is given by Satguru...i.e by the GOD ^^ Yes this is correct. Then 'wahegutu' is not the Naam as per that you have stated. Is it so? ^^ vaheguru is the MANTER given by the guru, guru nanak dev ji. so VAHEGURU = gurmanter, the purpose of this manter is to lead us to the NAAM (anhad shabad).

besoft there are many types of katha i will address briefly, there is drist maan katha (katha that tells us our history). Then once the seeker wants to meet god he must learn the akath katha, this is katha of our internal selves, akatha katha answers such questions as where are we from, what was here before us, how was our bodies made, how do we pass this trigun maya/bhav sagar how do we goto chautha paad and meet god. First guru nanak dev ji started this akatha katha, then guru angad dev ji, then guru amar daas ji and guru amar daas ji trained 22 sants to go spread this parchar (suno santo katho akath kahni) finally guru arjan dev ji made it hukum from sikh to satguru to do this akath katha so every1 cud get out the bhav sagar. The other kathas are prem kahni, amar katha and gooj katha (these kathas happen when u goto chautha paad and happen thru anhad). All the akatha katha is what gurbani teaches us, just sukhmani sahib alone tells us how to transcend the 5 elements and go and meet god.

Naam is the voice of god, this voice of god in gurbani is referred to as anhad shabad, anhad bani, sehaj dhun, sacha shabad, panch shabad. This NAAM can only be heard no sant/sadhu/brahamgyani/bhagat/gurmukh can give u this naam only the satguru can. In order to get to this naam we must japp the gurmanter (vaheguru) in occordance to the jugtis bestowed in satguru guru granth sahib jis bani.

so i'll see you this Sunday? Because a sikh of the guru practices what he preaches. As for the bani you have quoted you make it sound as if i am against the 5 kakaar? The 5 kakaar are very important in sikhi BUT by wearing them, as guru ji has told us, does not make you a khalsa - khalsa is one who has assan chautha paad/tir ghar/nijghar but if you living in trigun (rajo sato tamo) then one can not call himself a khalsa. Ill give you a practical example - we see many ppl wearing the 5 kakkar, bana etc etc yet you see them doing all the bujjar kurehits, does this make them khalsa? I think not. Even more finer detail we see amrit dharis who are stuck in kaam,krodh,lob,moh,hankaar,eerka,nindya,chugli,paar dhan, paar dhun they live on tamogun - we then see others who are stuck in aasha blusha trishna chinta fikkar grehi kaam they are stuck on rajo - you think the status that is given to a khalsa is stuck in this trigun maya? Definitely Not.

i thought id shed light on who gurbani considers a khalsa: kahu kabeer jan bheae khaalasae praem bhagath jih jaanee ||4||3|| panna 655 and then gurbani guru tells us where one becomes a bhagat: Sookh mehal jan kay ooch dwaray.Ta meh vassay bhagat piaaray. panna-739 As per guru gobind singh ji: pooran joth jagai ghatt mai thab khaalas thaahi nakhaalas jaanai || panna 1 if you are seeing the joth then call your self a khalsa (pure) if not guru ji calls u nakhaals (impure) Notice that gurbani is strictly talking about the mind, nowhere is it mentioned that by wearing bana, kakkars it makes you a khalsa! khalsa is status of the mind.

1santkhalsa i have already offered an open invite, why dont you come down your self and discuss it in person with every1. It is easy to criticize others on the internet, i think it would be more constructive if you actually came to prabh milne ka chao gurdwara and spoke about the issue directly. talking big on the internet is very easy, actually doing something is a totally different ball game.

but munjoth why dont you guys do something to persuade the committee - help out the local sangat directly - u go there every week no? ^^ The correct channels have already been used. This has been going on, to my knowledge, for about 2/3 years - first committee members were approached and asked to stop. The situation didnt resolve so the matter was taken to court and the sangat also went to see the jathadaar of the akaal thakat to get a letter written to state that no meat or alcohol is to be served in the gurdwara, eventually they did get it but i dont think this made much difference as the court case was lost. It is a shame because that gurdwara is something really nice. If this were india other methods would have been used but as this is england we must abide by the rules and use the correct channels, if any gurmukh has any other ways to overcome this please feel free to come down and present your idea in person.

This is not the prabh milne ka chao gurdwara, it is infact the other gurdwara located in swindon - This is the reason there are two gurdwaras in swindon because the other one is ruined by corruption, some of the sangat from swindon tried to put a stop to this and a court case has been going on as well as the involvement of the akaal takhat but alas no support there.

If you read all the adyatmic granths and listen tot he katha by Sant Gurbachan Singh Ji Bhindrawalae you will hear about the Sookham Sareer not being the atma as it can be split into 17 as stated. The Atma cant be split as it is parmatma. As stated in Bani and Vedant. This is the Karan Sarrer. It seems at an Adhiyatmic level the Tarmalaey lack but are more Naam Abhiyasees. ^^ Ive heard this katha by giani thakur singh ji, but as said before guru granth sahib ji is the guru. But I am going out of depth here as I have not done the practical of taking my sookham sareer out of my body, Guru says be what you are not what your not, when I do the practical I can answer this. Where is lineage of this group, when did it start. Cant be that old as not mentioned in the Bharat Mat Darpan by Mahant Ganesha Ji. ^^ There is no group, I think some may be having trouble with this point there is no ‘tarmala group’ please understand this. Yes Gurbani can give one Brahamgian but not through just simran, without love and devotion their is notheing. There are 9 types of Bhagti and a tenth is regarded as Prema Bhagti. ^^ No I said the Guru, Gurbani guru tells how to get braham gyan, and yes love and devotion is required. Bani states that for one to go to Para from Vaikhari they have to do bhagti from Mudhma and Parsanti. There is no way you can go from one to the other. So how does your jatha do this and no other form of Sikhi does? ^^ From my understanding, unless you translate what ‘vaikhari’ is, vaikhari bani is when you are doing abhyaas loudly, then get quiet and go antar ghaat, unless ive misunderstood this. Bani says ' Sunniai Jog Jugat Tan Bhed' this in Taksali Arth and Sevapanth stteks both states this talks about the Chakras which one will become aware of through meditation. ^^ Again this is going out my depth, I will give a valid response at the end of this topic. Aagiya Chakkar ^^ This is made through rom rom simran, there is also rakya chakaar, this chakaar is to protect you from teh outside world and aagyia chakkar protects you from the 5 dhoots. to the Ira Pingla Sukhmana which Bhagat Beni talks about in Bani. ^^ Yes I have not balanced the Ira Pingla Sukhmana out, nor have I balanced the Chand And Soorage out to allow me to enter prakash, As I haven’t done the practical and passed this stage it is hard for me to tell you about it. As i said if you have Sharda in Bani then tell me about the Bani of Bhagat Beni when the Chakras Ira Pingla and Sukhmana are mentioned. if theyr are not important to the development of a sikh then why is is mentioned. You have taken certain quotes of Bani which you find apply to you what about this one. Also there are others about the Chakras i cn bring forth. ^^ I know of Ira Pingla Sukhmana, But again I haven’t done the practical so I am going out of my depth to reply to this. Again I apologize I may have made a mistake about the passing of the chakras, I realised that when you do pass this bhav sagar you longer need to go through the chakars as there is a shortcut. You have raised some very good topics that I have not myself done vichaar on, I only know briefly about the Ira Pingla Sukhmana and yes this is mentioned in bani and what the seeker is to do once they reach here and what happens once they pass this. This topic is discussed on the website listed below, I my self must do some research on this This will be the last post on the subject as we've discussed alot of topics on gurmat veechar, this akath katha is far more indepth then I could explain and is openly available on www.simran.info and every1 is welcome to download the katha and listen to it. You can also pop down to and question bhai ajit singh on the matter: Prabh Milne Ka Chaho Gurudwara Dixion street SWINDON SN1 3PL

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa! Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!! My contribution to this debate is not personal experience, but nevertheless from a person who got very close to those with the Tarmaala Jatha, and then pulled out after about a year. Main reasons he left was that although he liked the emphasis on Naam Simran - Singhs in the Jatha would congregate at weekends for 8 hours or more of straight Saas-Giraas Simran Abhiyaas - he was unnerved by being told that Nitnem and reading Bani is not important. ^^ Please could we have more specific details on the singhs that said this, as without bani we would not have this akath katha gyan nor would we understand how to do simran to meet vaheguru. It is stressed that reading bani like a parrot is deemed useless, if you read gurbani do not even understand one tuk then what have you learnt from your guru. That is why we must read guru bani like seeker and a researcher looking for the path back to god. He also got disaffected with the constant promises that if you do Simran with us, then you'll be able to reach certain Avasthaa. E.g., you'll be able to read people's mind. One of the Tarmaala Singhs always told him that his soul went regularly to the moon and other planets. There was a general sense of boasting of what individuals had/were achieving through Simran. This he felt was leading into displaying Ridhiaa-Sidhiyaa, which Gursikhs must avoid/overcome. Also, he felt that Sikhi Kamaiye should be kept Gupt, rather than flashed about. ^^ again can we have the singhs names who are preeching this, as promising others gifts when only the satguru can would mean they are trying to be 'shreeks' (copies) of the guru, although people attend the sangat they may have hunkaar. The other point is they are not boasting when talking about avastaas as in gurus time all gursikhs use to meet and talk about there avaastas and the hurdles they encountered. They would then guide each other to higher planes of spirituality. Ridhi Sidhis are something else, taking your sookham akaar out is not ridhi sidhis BUT can only be done when vaheguru give you hukum, benti if you could display those singhs name doing this

Never heard of this Jatha but that does not meean anything. I have a question which was asked but never answered? ^^ Hunji veer ji lets discuss this point first, this isnt a jatha, a cult, a baba or something of the dera trend. This parchaar is of the akath katha that guru nanak dev ji started, then this akath katha gyan was passed onto guru angad dev ji, we read in gurbani: Suno Santo Katho Akath Kathni, guru amar daas ji set up 22 manajals of sants to then further spread this akath akatha, then the 4th guru gave hukum to all from sikh to brahamgyani to do this akath katha. this akath katha takes us to vaheguru, in gurbani it is referred to as: akath katha, amar katha, gooj katha, prem kahni. Shaking? Tell me more about that? ^^ Hunji this has been discussed at some length in previous posts and on the other thread. In brief when we pass through the 5 elements this causes shaking and viraag as the mind is traveling back to vaheguru ji, w The lights you explained, quite worrying and confusing. You say that is when you hit one of the elements? You can go to the Radhaswamis and Noormelias. They can tell you to close your eyes, do gurmantar and at that time will press the temples on your head so you can see a light. Followers then state they have seen a light and hit an element. ^^ 100% the radoswamis do this, if they press the wrong ones, these are nerves in ur neck and forehead - and if the wrong ones are pressed you die. This is NOT in gurmat we do simran abhyaas through gurmanter, the lights do occur and if they do one should open his or her eyes as maya is trying to trick you into believing that this is 'prakash' of vaheguru. Just to stress this is not a practice in gurmat, If I confused you then i apologize, I was making the sangat aware of this that we don't fall prey to those lights. ***EDITED PART ABOUT CHAKKARS REMOVED AS MY KHOJ/RESEARCHER AND GYAN ON THIS IS NOT 100% AND I DO NOT WISH TO MISGUIDE PEOPLE*** Again the colours come from the taats (5 elements) and you experience a further, i think, 7 colours that are present on the eye lashes - again this is NOT prakash and we should avoid this. Saas Giraas is the method of bani which is most inline with Gurbani, obviously you have others like akhand jaap, apapa jaap, etc. However you practice this bani, is this with Vaikhree, Madhma, Parsanti and Para. If so again the Chakras will have to be aligned. ^^ Hunji we practice swaas giraas, swaas swaas and rom rom. At the start our minds do not focus so we practice with vaikhree bani, then as our mind focuses its madhma, then parsanti and then finally antarghat (internally). This causes sunn/sehaj, the anhad shabad becomes loud and clear and amrit begins to pour down. With the Anhad Shabad, Which shabad do you actually hear, their are over 10 types of Anhad Shabad. The Panch Shabads can be catogorised as Tanti, Mridang, Ghanta, Ghata and Nafiri? ^^ Yes there are 5 shabads that you hear at devlok and 5, that are slightly different that you hear when you are prevesh in 10sm dwaar, I've only heard one not all 5 yet, more kamai to get all 5. You speak of the Asthool Sareer (the body) and The Sukham Sareer being the Atma. However what about the Karan Sareer which is smaller then the sookham Sareer? ^^ There is a tukh in gurbani that says first is naam over that is sookam akaar and over that is astool, i dont recall it but karan sareer is not mentioned, please reference gurbani with this. Our subtle body/Shuksham Sirar is made of 17 elements together- five pranas, five gyan indrai(senses), five karam indra(senses), Man(Mind) and Buddh(Intellect) ^^ the 5 elements: air water fire earth and akaash 5 gyan indra: sight,sound,smell,taste,touch - these are the 5 advisors to the mind vaheguru told us to take thre advice before doing karam, but kaal has put them to sleep, he put the mind to sleep as well mind: in gurbani mind sits in the eyes, to see outside and was suppose to see inside but we dont see inside as our mind is sleep. the exact place the mind is located on the two black dots on our eyes. one thing i will say is that one cannot be guaranteed an avastha of Brahmgian from any form of Jaap or Buddhi. ^^ Gurbani guru gives us a guarantee: aaht pehar ardaya POORAN BRAHAMGYAN - meditate for 24hrs and he will give you pooran brahamgyan BUT this is not done in this desh, you first must do an assan in nijghar and when it is time vaheguru will call you him self into sehaj ghar (where he resides) and then you will do this, not by doing 24hrs simran with your mind wandering everywhere.

As for guru gobind singh jis darshan this is not inline with guru jis bani. What therefore are your feelings/views towards Sant ji. Because according to you he is not in line with bani. ^^ veer ji I have no feeling towards sant jarnail singh bhinderawale, no hate no love. I am only here to meet vaheguru and as mentioned before gurbani will take us to vaheguru. Bhagat kabir was asked once what group are you part of and he said: Hum Mehi Dhara ik Ha, he only beclongs to one and we are all from that one.

aadsaach this parchaar of akath katha has been done at all the thakats an major gurdwaras, this akath katha gyaan is all dhaarj in gurbani as it is gurbani. this akath akathas purpose is suppose to lead us to vaheguru, we havent covered the katha yet as this is being typed up for english speaking sikhs. if you would like dvds of the parchaar being done at the panthic gurdwaras, or how the amritsanchaar was accepted and praised, because it was published in all major indian news papers - i can get you the poster so u can read the requirements your self.

hunji like i said before that i have heard giani jis katha, I use to listen to it alot, i have also heard that sakhi by him. But when doing gurmat veechar we always refer to our satguru for this bhagti. A Sant, Sadhu, Bhagat, Brahamgyani, Gurmukhs duties and status are outlined in gurbani, we've already covered this topic. As for guru gobind singh jis darshan this is not inline with guru jis bani.

As for the recording veer ji, there is no need i have listend to giani thakur singh jis katha before.

Munjoth, When baba attar singh mustuana shahib vale went to hazur sahib they stayed there for two years because they wanted darshan of guru sahib so badly. After 2 years of constant bhagti they finally got darshan of Guru Gobind Singh Jee. Guru Ji wasn't upset with them for longing his darshan. I don't know where you got that information from. Also there was another occasion when Sant Jarrnail Singh Jee went to hazur sahib for Guru Ji's darshan. Gyani Thakur Singh talks about it in his katha, i'll try to find the recording ^^ Hunji veer ji as said before i dont know of other books, sakhis stories etc. When we want to confirm weather a story is true or not we put it on gurbani khasvati, guru is shabad it is not a human body, guru gobind singh attached us to the shabad guru, guru granth sahib ji. And in jaap said we read that the one we are suppose to meet has no roop, akaar, rung (no physical body, no colour). Yes there is a place that gurbani calls 'ghundarba nagri' if a person gets stuck there he will start to see akaars (physical bodies) of people/gurus/sants hes been longing to see, this is very dangerous because if a person gets stuck here it is very difficult to take him or her out. A gursikh only wants darshaan of akaal, and we are given full description in jaaps sahib on how vaheguru is so we dont get confused and start doing darshan of akaars (bodies) as these are all in maya. When we goto dasam akaash there are not akaar (physical bodies) there.

a(n)mrith gur parasaadhee paaeae || ^^ the amrit refered to here is the amrit we recieve from the 10sm dwaar and can only be attained by the gurus kirpa a(n)mrith rasanaa bolai dhin raathee man than a(n)mrith peeaavaniaa ||3|| ^^ direct translation: amrit tongue speaks day and night the mind and body drinks amrit, and again from practical this is what happens. But this was achieved through naam abhyaas not any baba only the gurus shabad.