MrDoaba

What excellent and 110% correct and perfect translations. Main ta dhan ho haya, dhan! People say Christians and Muslims take everything too literally, it seems they aren't the only ones anymore. These tuks are metaphors. It’s ridiculous when people post random tuks together to push their warped view of Gurmat and confuse others. All the translators pushed their own agendas too and look at the state of youth today, running around with translations like fanatics. Everyone should post the context and uthankaa of the FULL Shabad. Do arth of the Bani. See what different Teekas say. Not just post random bits of Gurbani translations to make baseless points. And people claim to know what Gurbani has spoken against. Lol what a joke.

Jesus, Mary and Joseph! So many posts over the weekend! I couldn’t reply as I was busy making chicken curry with a Sri Lankan twist and feeding insecure, weak-minded Sikhs. I’d be happy to share the recipe. Yes, I am devoid of compassion. I commend that’s what you took away from my posts with your level headedness. I provided a very rational argument which your fanaticism stopped you from understanding. Instead of taking the opportunity to counter any of my points you just provided emotional drivel. We could have had a good debate. You keep saying it’s cruel and evil and un-Sikh yet have failed to explain how. For God’s sake there is no suffering involved with Jhatka, that’s the whole point of it! No one is harming anyone or anything! No one is being uncompassionate! Why can’t you comprehend this?! And you can’t use that “taste of the tongue” rubbish. What about everything both vegetarians and meat eaters do and take part in for the pleasures and tastes of the mind? All those things which are destructive to the environment, cause global warming, and just blatantly ruin Dharti Maa, which, I should add, indirectly kills wildlife, and humans for that matter? If you cannot take the above into mind then you are guilty of having hypocrisy of the highest level, and ignorant. You have also failed to respond to my tabla and rabaab comment; who provides these materials??? If Guru Ji “likened those that eat meat to a goblin and beast” then who on earth would provide those valuable materials? By your logic Guru Ji wasn’t going to procure those materials from people who Jhatka goats because they’re goblins and beasts and certainly wouldn’t be able take anything off them for use in the Darbaar. What options does that leave?? Kill goats for a few bits of their body? What a waste that would be! The above is pretty much proof that Jhatka wasn’t taboo nor was it the capital crime you claim it to be. If you can’t agree, then all vegetarian/vegan Sikhs are hypocrites by your lofty standards because....."eating meat is wrong in Sikhi but challo we still need animal parts for the Darbaar and the multitude of things in our everyday lives. But lol do you wanna know a secret...we're allowed to turn a blind eye to those things! And it's not like it's our Paap hey!" Exactly the level of hypocrisy the Brahmins had which Guru Ji spoke about. You decided to resort to personal insults by saying my actions are equivalent to a Muslim. I was going to ask you to elaborate, but then I realised that the very fact you would make such a laughable insult showed that you are well and truly brainwashed. I’m about as much of a murderer probably as much as you are the RSPCA’s #1 sevak. Anyway, I think you’d make an excellent CEO of an organisation for goat welfare. I took the time to brainstorm some names for this org: Pakhandi Sikhs for Goats Society for the Conservation of Goats Goat Welfare Trust World Goat Federation Goat Defence League Forum of Goat Conservationists Goat Lives Matter (#goatlivesmatter) SAVE THE GOATS!! This is my last post to you. Jai Jhatka Di SatSriAkaal

I agree humans do indeed have the intelligence to understand right and wrong but interpretations of right and wrong are not black and white. That’s why we have courts, judiciary committees, ombudsman, HR departments and debating platforms. Using a lion for Jhatka would be counterproductive and negate the entire point of Jhatka. I did not say having more intelligence or a higher Joon justified why it is ok to Jhatka a goat, that comment was simply a rebuttal to a single point of yours not the crux of my whole argument. That’s exactly the point of it. A goat is not even equal to us but killing one still prompts an emotional response so one has to be prepared to what emotional response will be evoked when killing humans. Inflicting pain on oneself is not a prerequisite to being a warrior nor is it essential to a warrior lifestyle. In fact this would be highly detrimental to the physical and mental health of a warrior. A warrior becomes a warrior knowing full well the risk of the pain that may be inflicted but that doesn’t mean they should regularly inflict pain on themselves for the sole purpose of experiencing pain. The same way a surgeon knows he may kill someone on his operating table one day and the same way a fire-fighter knows he may get burned, possibly to death but neither kill anyone or burn themselves for those sole purposes alone respectively. Actually the goats feel very little pain as the head is severed almost instantaneously. There is no where for pain signals to go. For the love of God, stop twisting my words. Where did I say killing goats is propagating Dharam??? I said it indirectly helps in propagating Dharam. But sorry I should have been clearer when I made the original comment, I should have said doing Jhatka not “killing” a goat indirectly helps propagate Dharam because straight up killing and Jhatka are two completely different things. I have tried to explain using logic and I have provided many rational and logical arguments. You have provided nothing but emotions for the poor old chatanga. Better get ready to make the naaraa "Jhatka Zindabaad" parvaan.

There is absolutely no logic behind what you are saying. You want one of two people who practise Jhatka to Jhatka the other so they can understand the feelings that are involved in this practise? That’s dreadfully illogical, verging on anarchy that is. “Murder of a goat” isn’t a thing and the killing of humans isn’t inhumane and horrendous just because the law tells us so. Are you not shocked when an animal kills an innocent human? Intelligence of sentient beings should be taken into account. You seem to be forgetting that human life is the highest Joon. Goats and humans are not comparable at all on a Karmic level. If soldier kills a fellow soldier that means there is one less person to propagate Dharam. If a soldier kills a goat as part of a soldier lifestyle for both physical and mental purposes then that goat has indirectly helped the propagating of Dharam. Can goats propagate Dharam alone? Can a goat get Mukti on its own? You’re likening Jhatka to torture or similar. I told you about the tabla and rabab, who do you think provides these materials? Don’t forget how many innocent defenceless animals lives are taken by us involuntarily, many by everyday processes and activities. Why is killing one voluntarily such a heinous crime especially given the value of it as listed in my earlier post? I can agree with your last point but I pretty much summed it up when I said courage (Bir Rass) and skill (SV and Jhatka) are two different things. A tyrant can have much courage and skill also, but if there is not righteousness behind that courage or skill then he will have to answer for his actions one day.

@Singhni MiriPiri Ok Ji but I would like to say, I respect your opinion on the matter but don't compare Jhatka on a Goat to murdering a fellow Sikh.

Errr I just explained in my post. I explained in detail actually. Did you even read it? And that's a terrible and ridiculous comparison. Murder is a crime. You completely misunderstood my post because you’re hell-bent on vilifying the practise of Jhatka. You’re implying that I somehow believe that Jhatka is the only way to increase compassion. I didn’t say that, I simply stated that Jhatka isn’t negative and it has positive benefits. That it is a fruitful practise. Where did I say it will give you courage on the battlefield? Again you’re being narrow-minded and completely mincing my words. Courage comes from Bir Rass Bani. But the skill of killing does not. Thats where SV and Jhatka comes in. They prepare you physically as well as mentally. Obviously you don’t approve of mental preparation. Practise SV and Jhatka >>> Makes you do more Bhagti >>> Repeat >>> Go to battle = Physically and mentally prepared Warrior ready to fight again. Practise SV ONLY >>> Do minimal Bhagti (or none for sake of my example) >>> Repeat >>> Go to battle = Warrior who comes back from battle with mental problems such as PTSD as is evident from today’s military because he had never ever killed any other living being. Don’t twist my words please.

I respect your view but try looking at it from a different angle Sister. You are downplaying what it feels like to take away life, something which may be required of a Khalsa at some point in their life. If you practise an art such as Shastar Vidya and even if you have perfected it, when the time comes to put it to use you will be lost if we don't have concepts such as Jhatka. Think about it, if you took a SV expert and plonked him on the frontline one can only imagine what would be going through his mind, seeing as he has never taken the life of an animal let alone a human. Take the example of hunting, you can practise the technique of hunting on inanimate objects all day long but to truly grasp those hunting techniques you will actually have to go hunting. Similarly the analogy above can be applied to a warrior who practises Jhatka. Like I said in my earlier post Jhatka isn’t just about just about acquiring some meat, which is just one part of it, it’s a multifaceted concept which encompasses so much more. Firstly you’re going to be putting all your training effort to the test, it not easy chopping off a head and you have to deal with the fact you’re going to be killing. You will physically understand your training better; how much pressure is required, the correct angle of the weapon, what it feels like to put weapon to flesh etc. Deliberate over this example....imagine giving a vegetarian chef a huge cut of meat; will he have the skill to cut it up like a skilled butcher? I highly doubt it. I could use many examples but this one fits the best. Next you have to deal with the feelings involved with what you have done; sadness, guilt, anger, and everything else you would feel if you had to use your warrior skills IRL. Dwelling on these feelings would lead you to do more Bhagti which would increase your Daya and in fact teach you to live more righteously. This is a Sant-Sipahi, one who can kill righteously. I guess you could say it's a bit like "prevention better than cure". And dont forget the saying; with great power comes great responsibility, you won’t become a tyrant. Further you would learn survival tactics; gutting, skinning, cooking, and utilising all parts of the goat (which is where we get the skin for Tabla and the strings for the Rabab). Lastly don’t forget that the defenceless innocent goat used for Jhatka is given Mukhti. Having said all this, I'll add that at the end of the day you are welcome to believe what you wish.

You shouldn’t worry too much about what you should or shouldn’t eat. There are no hard and fast rules in Sikhi about diet, no matter what people claim. Just stay healthy and keep your health at an optimum level at all times. Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji aren’t a health guide, they do not comment on dunyavi gallan. Guru Ji is the one who will help us to merge with Parmatma, that’s it. Vegetarians often argue that people eat meat for the taste of the tongue but only on the day all the staunch veggies stop eating all the khaana peena they eat for the taste of the tongue, then will what they claim will hold some weight, until then Raab de vaaste bas karo. Personally, Vegetarian Sikhs lost my respect since the boom they created which allowed all arrays of vegetarian food made available to the masses, including fine cuisine. I once saw a leaflet for an independent baker on whose leaflet it said they can provide cakes made according to Sarbloh Bibek. It was truly a mega lol moment. Sarbloh Bibeki birthday cakes...what hypocrisy. It is here that the taste of the tongue argument went into the dustbin. Only Brahmgyanis can have total control over what they eat. Aam people can try as much as they like but eventually your mind will desire one type of food over the other whether it’s plain or masaledaar. Before the veggie terrorists attack me I am not advocating eating meat 24/7. Diet will change according to your avastha, it’s not a black and white subject. It is in fact a very fluid subject I would say. As long as you maintain a balanced diet and try you best not to over indulge, then over time you can adjust your diet dependent on your spiritual state. However, I would say it’s important to dwell on where you see yourself in the Panth and what kind of Sikh you aspire to be as this will also determine your diet somewhat. Meantime de vich Bhagti karo ta fer baad’ch o dekhi jaio ki hunda. There are many factors to take into consideration. Everyone’s metabolism and body is different for a start. For some being veggie is fine but for others not so much. I have witnessed many Amritdhari folks, including in my own family, whose health declined quite drastically because they had it drilled into their heads after taking Amrit that eating meat is going to send them to the lowest Narkh. It’s pure bakwaas. People please understand all the food in today’s world comes with some kind of Karmic weight. Globalisation has made it nearly impossible to consume food which has little Karmic weight, unless of course you do subsistence farming. Do you think a vegan diet is without Karmic weight? No way José. Think about the terrible conditions of farm workers and farmers in many cases as mentioned above. Human suffering could well and truly been a part of the vegan produce you buy. Think about how many different types of Joon die when soil is being tilled and raked on the farms which produce your vegan products. Think about the pressures farmers face from big corporations which makes their lives hell sometimes. These are just some of the things one could bring up. The above demonstrates it is nearly impossible to remain innocent when it comes to your diet. A vegan diet could hold as much Karmic weight as a diet which includes meat. Without being too controversial and staying within forum rules, I’m of the firm opinion that all Sikhs should practise Jhatka occasionally whether or not you're lacto-vegetarian, vegetarian or vegan. Jhatka is a multifaceted concept; do the kill, deal with the feelings associated with killing, skin and gut the animal, prepare for cooking, cook, and finally experience what it’s like to eat. One of the ways to practise and make perfect the Sipahi part of Sant-Sipahi, the other being Shastar Vidya. See, it’s highly educational. Just my two cents baki Raab jaane. P.S. Sikhs had to fight for their right to do Jhatka once upon a time! See the link below. http://www.sikhawareness.com/topic/13333-the-jhatka-conference-in-1937/?page=1

Kaljug..... He used to post on this very forum. I haven’t seen him of late though. Who knows how many years he has left in him? I pray that God gives him a long life.

I will PM you at some point if it's ok bro?

Aahh that's your agenda. Now I understand. Advait Vedant is not the same as Gurmat. I'm not denying there's much overlap but they are two distinct schools of thought. If that's how you interpret Dharam then you should take Diksha from an Vedant Guru. You should find discourses done between Nirmala Saadhus and Advait Vedant Saadhus before you make your mind up. If Advait Vedant is the one for you then you shoud refrain from reading Dasam Bani and Sarbloh Bani as I'm of the belief they do not adhere to Bir Rass or Dharam Yudh in general. Can't be in both boats.

Yeah that's why I said Avtaarvaad is so complicated. All the Avtaars and Sub-Avtaars are all of different level, they only had certain responsibilites, powers etc as per my understanding and most importantly they were created by Vaheguru. Guru Ji wasn't created by Vaheguru so to speak, rather that was the moment He decided to manifest Himself into Sargun form. Spoken as simply as possible. Would you say the above is correct bro? You know more than me, I would like to hear more if possible (small excerpt) I heard once in katha at local Gurdwara that Dasam Granth is really only for the Khalsa, it's like their social, moral and Yudh guide. Whereas SGGS is for all manukhta. I'm gonna take a book off a relative on Dasam Granth by Kamalroop Singh, he's expert on DG as well as all Sikh puratan granth and documents. You read it by any chance? -Edit- By Khalsa I mean it in the Puratan sense not someone who has taken Amrit after being told "Kes rakho, Amrit Shako, Singh Sajjo". Controversial I know but relevent anyhow. Separate thread really.

You're rarely clear. The two posts you've made to me is what you should have said orginally instead of misleading the OP. I don't know why I'm debating this with you anymore. We're debating Ph.D gallan and I sadly do not have one. Stop misusing Gurbani. You've done it one too many times. It's very disrespectful. Jinni marji sorry sorry kar la you are still misusing Gurbani. STOP.

From the way you've articulated this point it seems you do not exactly have a deep understanding of yourself. I'm not saying I do, hell no, so thats why I wouldn't go around presenting it as evidence. Avtaarvaad is a very complicated subject. And I seriously don't think thats how God manifests into Sargun, thats bordering on fairy tales. I'm by no means an expert of Advait but I can say with some certainty that isn't how Avtaars Prakaash, it doesn't really fit in with the idea of it all.

So why do you feel the need to use specific quotes regarding individual Devi-Devte? And please re-read what I wrote about worshipping! The reply you just made to me should have been the reply to the OP. And for future reference I will politely ask you to refrain from quoting Sri Sarbloh Granth Ji, it is not for aam janta like us. It is for Chardi Kala GurSikhs with the most uchi suchi Jeevan. Only those who have had Santhiya of SGGS and DG should even mention Sri Sarbloh Granth Ji by name let alone quote it to a jigyasu.

Phen Ji it isn’t poison. Just because in your experience you’ve only met AKJ Singhs and Singhnian who have read, sung, and trusted Dasam Bani, not everyone has had your pavitar experience. I can agree many AKJ accept some parts of Dasam Bani but the majority sadly do not accept DG in its entirety. Maybe you’ve been lucky enough to have had Sangat with some older AKJ members. Out of respect for you I’ll keep my views about AKJ to myself whatever they may be.

@Preeet I have a benti. Could you please give me the telephone number of your Vidya Gurdev who has given you Santhiya of Sri Sarbloh Granth Ji? I have a query or ten for him. Given you are quoting Sri Sarbloh Granth Ji, I would like to congratulate on your completion of your Santhiya of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and Sri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji. I had no idea! Thanks in advance. P.S. Say for the sake of argument you have convinced us that we should worship Ganesh Ji. I would be grateful if you could teach us the method of worshipping Ganesh Ji. Your continued usage of the word "worship" has piqued my curiosity.

@Preeet From where did you copy the lines you used earlier? The ones to support your argument.

Vaheguru and Gurbani are beant.....

I pretty much agree bro. All too often I think many of us forget that Guru Ji is a lyrical master. One Gurbani tuk could make it seem like we should be running to the next Ram Mandir we see, as some people like to claim, and another completely disregards Devi/Devte to the point where as you said people begin to see them “ as wretched as criminals”. Context people, do Khoj! If we take Gurbani in context, bearing in mind this is my rough (possibly Manmat, please correct me if need be) interpretation then I would say as follows...There is no one higher then Guru Mahraaj/Akaal. Gurbani teaches us that not only the world but the whole universe has been destroyed and recreated countless times...so the Devi Devte as we know them are only part of this round of creation, hence, they are relevant and should be respected but they are not the be all and end all and we shouldn’t “worship” them (remembering what I said about worship in an earlier post). Or one could sum it by saying “Pranaam Devi Devte ah nu but that’s as far I as I go”. Am I to take the above as your understanding also? And actually we’ve re-railed the thread now! All relevant to the OP. -Edit- Btw I don’t think anything is wrong with religious imagery as long as we don’t start doing Puja of these images. Appreciation and understanding of Indic art and the deep representations contained within it is important. Our Gyan may even grow to an extent by analysing them and they may help us to understand metaphorical meanings used in Gurbani e.g. how you mentioned Krishan Jis weapons above or the weapons in Durga Mata Jis hands etc. The layers to these depictions are actually rather fascinating. On another note I wouldn’t hesitate for a second to buy the artwork in the link below. http://www.sikhiart.com/2015/07/22/new-painting-of-shiva/

Lol! I can't believe how accurate the guy is! And yeah I've seen that one. Btw we've totally derailed this thread

Haanji I know. AKJ could hardly be considered "Bhai Randhir Singh Jatha" today. Brother I recognize all the seva different Mahapurkh did for the Panth but I try and understand their words by taking into account their history, overall ideology and influences (political and Dharmic), it changes your interpretations greatly. In layman’s terms, take it with a pinch of salt. And no I don’t mind Jatha as long as it doesn’t become the “My God is better than yours” attitude we had in Primary School lol. Thanks for the link bro. Will check it out later. Anyway you just reminded me of something...

@Thanatos@Preeet A polite request, please do not be overly rigid or black and white in your interpretations. The word worship in a western sense is quite narrow whereas from an Indic viewpoint it has numerous meanings. An act a follower of an Eastern school of thought does would easily be considered as worship by western/orientalist standards, where as the follower them self would not consider it worship, by their own standards. Thanatos Ji I understand the respect you have for Sants...I also see you have quoted Bhai Randhir Singh; AKJ aren’t exactly lovers of DG so I wouldn’t be too quick to quote them. And we shouldn’t be saying who is or isn’t a fully fledged GurSikh, thats not really up to us. With this kind of thinking you would be marginalising a large number of Sikhs, especially those from traditional Sampardas. Preet, I must say your Jai Mata Di comment is rather silly. Jai Mata Di exclusively refers to the physical manifestations of Devi by those who use this greeting, not the Jag Mata referred to in Bani. Thanatos you seem to have a great aversion to Devi/Devte whereas Preet you seem to have a great affinity. Find some middle ground. E.g. Please contemplate what you would do if Sri Krishan Ji Bhagwan graced you with their Darshan? Would you show them the front door or become their Bhagat for life? Hint: The answer is neither but try and contemplate it optimistically and you’ll have your answer. Vaheguru.

Veera me and you get this as do many others, but the sad fact is many of the younger generation who try to implement change by initially conforming to the ridiculousness of Gurdwara politics end up getting lost in it also. I have witnessed this. Thier sochni becomes the same as the fuddus who run the Gurdwaras. They get engrossed in it all. It seems we need some kind of Inquilaab in Gurdwaras. But certainly not like the Inquilaab of Singh Sabha.

Amen. Problem is the progeny of these old fudhus are heirs to the respective position of the membership in the committee. Corruption and Manmat is passed down generation to generation. They’re lost in a post-colonial mindset and find pleasure in mindless Veechaar and trivial matters. The bickering I’ve observed at my local Gurdwara which has been in the Hazoori of Mahraaj nonetheless, is sickening...enough to put you off from going there again. What will the younger generation take away from this? They are bound to repeat such a circus. A sad state of affairs indeed. In my book all committee members should be proficient in the duites of Granthi, Kirtani and Kathakaar and all should have to prove they have had intense Santhiya. They should ALL be able to carry out the day to day running of a Gurdwara instead of them only carrying out the duty assigned to them. Their sochni is a western one, they run Gurdwaras like it’s some corporate organisation. Only after the criteria I’ve stated should such an individual be considered for a position. It’s the only way. Otherwise we’ll forever have unparh haraami kutteh at the helm of Gurdwaras. What will actually happen...ki patta. Mahraaj da Bhana.