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MrDoaba

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Everything posted by MrDoaba

  1. Your arth of ਜਗੈ is incorrect. In Sri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji from what I've seen every example of that word means wake/awaken/illuminate. It would be inconsistent that in this instance it means "world" or "in the world". Nor is the word "Dharam" used in the bani as your have used in your translation - "Dharam of Hindus/Turks", implying ownership. Dharam does not belong to anyone, there is only one Dharam e.g. ਧਰਮ ਨੇਮ ਕੀ ਜੁਗਤ ਕਿਨਹੂੰ ਨ ਜਾਨੀ ॥ Anyway, the translation of the pangti above would be: Dharam will awaken within Hind (Bharat, India), and the Turks will be driven away. or The Dharam of Hind [as in the concept of Dharam which was conceived/revealed in Hind/Bharat] will awaken, and the Turks will be driven away. Which is consistent with the rest of the bani. This one also doesn't make any sense. The original translation is perfectly fine; ਮਿਟਹਿ is past tense and is also in keeping with the rest of the bani which is not as anti-"Hindu" as you want it to be. ਮਿਟੈ seems present tense, and again would be in keeping with the bani; to purge the Turks/Mughals/Muslims. Not to forget that there are several pangtis about the Vedas within Uggardanti, which eradicates your interpretation : ਨਮੋ ਜੋਤਿ ਜਵਾਲਾ ਤੁਮੈ ਬੇਦ ਗਾਵੈਂ ॥ Salutation to one with the glowing flame that the Vedas and the learned sing praise of. ਨਮੋ ਵੇਦ ਵਿੱਦਿਯਾ ਨਮੋ ਜੱਗਯ ਰੂਪਾ ॥ Salutation to the giver of Veda knowledge and salutation to the fiery flame of the holy fire (Yug Havan) ਤੁਹੀ ਬ੍ਰਾਹਮਣੀ ਬੇਦ ਪਾਠਣ ਸਵਿਤ੍ਰੀ ॥ You are Saraswati, the proficient in the Vedas. ਤੁਹੀ ਸਾਰਦਾ ਬੇਦ ਗਾਯਣ ਸੁਰਸਤੀ ॥ You are the Goddess Saraswati, singing and bestowing eminence to the knowledge of the Vedas. Would be a little ridiculous to eradicate something which is spoken about positively elsewhere in the same text no? Lastly ਦੇਵਲ doesn't explicitly mean Mandir but yes that is one definition of it. And it makes sense....because Dharam has become corrupted asthaans which have corrupt practises should go. But sadly the pangti does not imply anything which would suit your viewpoint. Bhul Chuk Maaf Gurbar Akaal!
  2. @Big_Tera Can you taste the Ponds face cream yet?
  3. As some of you may be aware, these Evangelical fanatics have a rather high level of organisation, which can be seen here: https://joshuaproject.net/ The amount of information and the breakdown is pretty shocking. On a recent trip to Punjab I too noticed some of the things that have been mentioned in this thread. One of the things that stood out was the placement of their banners and such...many seemed to be in a place which I presume would be inaccessible without some potentially official assistance - electricity pylons. Including these huge banners I saw various other adverts pretty much everywhere. Even on smaller road traffic signs (particularly in pinds) I noticed quotes from the "Pavitar Bible" in Gurmukhi which had been cable tied. The two worst examples was probably seeing banners in and around Anandpur Sahib and literally as soon as you get to the exit of Amritsar airport. There most definitely need to be a concerted effort to nip this in the bud before the halaat of Punjab becomes like that of South India where the situation can only be described as terrible at best because they have converted a sizable minority of the indigenous population who shareh-aam preach outside temples and do kabjaa of temple lands. A "koi naa kuch ni karde" attitude as apne (generally both Sikhs and Punjabi Hindus) over there have is extremely counterproductive to any proposed solutions...it seems it was this same liberal attitude which bit South Indians on the arse.
  4. Precisely my thoughts. Utter bullsh!t. Very out of the ordinary to mention that they were Sikh. Or well, perhaps not.
  5. https://www.nwemail.co.uk/news/national/18172255.two-men-arrested-three-dead-clash-sikh-groups/
  6. I'm sure someone can give a better suggestion than I, but if all else fails, I know there are some ladies who sew suits that will know how to make one. Worth asking around. I'll ask around for ya too and if I get any results, I'll send you a PM.
  7. I think you have proven your own point, because you seem to think diet maketh the Sikh. Your Sikhi Jeevan seems to consist of what is on others plates. You have no idea how anyone practises Sikhi or not. All you've done is make another garbage post and ignored what I shared with you. First of all you can't even be bothered to post the Gurmukhi, the actual Gurbani. Relying on translations is a folly; it's clear from your interpretations you have no idea what the pangtis are talking about. It's laughable. Second of all, even from the crappy English translations one can tell they're not talking about diet lmao - from which I can deduce even your Angrezi needs work. Oh nice, in one line "brother" the next "stupid". ਬੜਾ ਚੰਗਾ ਭਾਈ ਨਿਕਲਿਆ ਤੂੰ What concern of yours is mine or anyone else's karma? Are you an Evangelical Christian who wants to save the Sangatan? If you're such an ucha sucha vegetarian I assume you adhere to a Sattvik diet??? I'm sure you only eat pure veg which is unflavoured and the simplest of the simple. If not then how do you battle kaam and krodh? Majority of your shakahaari bros eat whatever the hell they eat for taste too so tu es gal te boht fail ho gaya. #VegiFail ਸਿਰ ਜਾਵੇ ਤਾ ਜਾਵੇ, ਮੇਰਾ ਪਨੀਰ ਪਕੌੜਾ ਨਾ ਜਾਵੇ ਬੱਡਾ ਆਇਆ....ਬੋਲੀ ਜਾ ਜੋ ਬੋਲਣਾ ਆਹ...ਕਮਲ ਕੁੱਟੀ ਜਾ. ਮੇਰਾ ਖੇੜਾ ਛੱਡ ਦੂਜਿਆਂ ਦੇ ਲਈ ਇਕ ਚੇਤਾਵਨੀ: ਬਾਕੀਆਂ ਦੀ ਗੱਲ ਛੱਡੋ ਆਪ ਨਾ ਜਹੰਨਮ ਵਿਚ ਡੁੱਬ ਜਾਇਓ Bhul Chuk Maaf Gurbar Akaal!
  8. Sir, I'm afraid your assertions are incorrect. Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaaj does not comment on such matters. These things are covered by Rehit Maryada. It seems, in fact, that you have not read Gurbani. You've misinterpreted these pangtis in such a way where you have completely missed the point lol. It is not even talking about diet but of course, anything to push an agenda and one that's been beaten to death - and - failed every time. ਤੁਮ ਕੌਣ ਹੋ ਯਹ ਬਤਾਨੇ ਕੇ ਲੀਏ ਕੇ ਮੈਂ ਕ੍ਯਾ ਹੂੰ ਯਹ ਕ੍ਯਾ ਨਹੀਂ ਹੂੰ? ਐਸਾ ਲਗਤਾ ਹੈ ਕ੍ਯਾ ਤੂ ਖੁਦ ਗੁਰੂਵਾਣੀ ਨਹੀਂ ਪੜਤਾ ਚੁਪਚਾਪ ਬੈਠ ਔਰ ਸ੍ਰਵਣ ਕਰ ਛੋਰਾ.... ਯਾਦ ਰੱਖੀ..ਤੂ ਕਿਸੇ ਦਾ ਅਫਸਰ ਨੀ ..... First of all the Uthanka or historical context of the shabad - this shabad is in Raag Tilang which is a Raag often used when a Muslim is being addressed, which is the case here; one will notice the heavy use of Farsi and Arabic: Sangat from Kabul were on their way to take gifts for Sri Guru Arjan Dev Ji and to have their darshan. Along the route there was a river once they reached Attock. They came across a man named Aalam who was a boatman. The Sangat approached him and told him they're on the way to see Guru Sahib and that they need him to get them across the river. Aalam said "give me the valuable things you're taking for Guru Sahib and I'll get you across". The Sangat replied "we will not give you anything out of these gifts but whatever your fees are, we are happy to pay". Aalam refused their offer and refused to take them across, and then left to walk back to his house. The Sangat decided to sit down and do Kirtan. On his way home walking, Aalam began to lose his vision and everything started to go black. At this point he panicked and turned back towards the Sangat. With his hands folded he asked for forgiveness and admitted he had made a big mistake. The Sangat said "we are not the ones who can redeem you, the only bakshanhaar is Guru Sahib!". After doing a benti his vision began to return and he lovingly took the Sangat across the river. He accompanied the Sangat to Amritsar to see Guru Sahib. In order to keep Aalam's hankaar - ego at bay Maharaaj Ji did ucharan of a shabad (which you have pasted terribly out of context): ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥ One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru: ਖਾਕ ਨੂਰ ਕਰਦੰ ਆਲਮ ਦੁਨੀਆਇ ॥ ਅਸਮਾਨ ਜਿਮੀ ਦਰਖਤ ਆਬ ਪੈਦਾਇਸਿ ਖੁਦਾਇ ॥੧॥ The Lord infused His Light into the dust, and created the world, the universe. The sky, the earth, the trees, and the water - all are the Creation of the Lord. ||1|| Here Guru Sahib is saying: O Aalam! Akaal Purkh has created this whole universe through his noor/jyot/light and power of Maya, through the five elements. ਬੰਦੇ ਚਸਮ ਦੀਦੰ ਫਨਾਇ ॥ ਦੁਨੀਆ ਮੁਰਦਾਰ ਖੁਰਦਨੀ ਗਾਫਲ ਹਵਾਇ ॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ O human being, whatever you can see with your eyes, shall perish. The world eats dead carcasses, living by neglect and greed. ||Pause|| Here Guru Sahib is saying: O man, Aalam! Whatever you can see with your eyes will perish. The world, by speaking and living in falsehood is consuming unpure things i.e. they're metaphorically eating carcasses, carrion - rubbish which certain animals eat. Their greed and desire is making them careless and ignorant - they have a lack of sentience. ਗੈਬਾਨ ਹੈਵਾਨ ਹਰਾਮ ਕੁਸਤਨੀ ਮੁਰਦਾਰ ਬਖੋਰਾਇ ॥ Like a goblin, or a beast, they kill and eat the forbidden carcasses of meat. Here Guru Sahib is saying: [taking the above into account] humans have become like unseen beings such as ghosts, and like animals; they have begun to metaphorically kill and eat living beings. They're consuming forbidden things - thing which are haraam because of their ego, desire, greed etc. ਦਿਲ ਕਬਜ ਕਬਜਾ ਕਾਦਰੋ ਦੋਜਕ ਸਜਾਇ ॥੨॥ So control your urges, or else you will be seized by the Lord, and thrown into the tortures of hell. ||2|| Here Guru Sahib is saying: The heart, the soul has been seized by Maya (the greed, desire, lust etc) and it is keeping the heart away from the all powerful Akaal Purkh. Because of which one will have to reap their punishment in hell. Now read the whole (there's more pangtis) shabad with the Uthanka in mind. Posting one pangti out of context is ridiculous. Gurbar Akaal!
  9. ਜੇ.ਕੇ.ਵੀ ਨੇ ਤਾ ਹਮੇਸ਼ਾ ਨੁਕਸ ਕੱਢਣੇ ਜਿਥੇ ਹੁੰਦੇ ਵੀ ਨਹੀਂ ਧਾਰਮਿਕ ਇਤਿਹਾਸ ਤੋਂ ਸਿੱਖਿਆ ਨੀ ਲਹਿਣੀ ਪਰ ਉਸ ਦੇ ਬਾਰੇ ਉਲਟ ਬੋਲਣਾ ਜਰੂਰ ਰੱਬ ਤੋਂ ਭੀ ਡਰ ਲਿਆ ਕਰ....
  10. MrDoaba

    Sikh cults?

    Nanaksar is not a cult, it is a legitimate samparda. However there are many offshoots which use the Nanaksar name and are indeed cultish. Many great Mahapurkhs and Brahmgyanis were from Nanaksar Samparda, truly Gyaan and Sharda da bhandaar. It's a shame people are abusing the name. Also it's worth noting many Nanaksar "Gurdwaras" are in fact, not Gurdwaras; they are called Thath - ਠਾਠ. These are more akin to ashrams and do not generally operate like regular Gurdwaras and therefore do not have a Nishan Sahib. Another one to add to the list of Canadian Nanaksar offshoots is Darbar Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji in Calagry - I think this is the Bulandpuri one. I believe this is the same group whos main Dera in Punjab currently has the tallest Nishan Sahib. Pretty cultish from what hear. Ravidassi Gurdwaras are just regular Gurdwaras which are run by the chamaar caste as Puzzled has said. They've in some way made Bhagat Ravidass Ji their patron saint given he was from the caste. Nothing wrong with it imo. The Jaikaara the OP refers to is: Bole So Nirbhey Sri Guru Ravidass Maharaaj Ki Jai. Most do the normal one too. But there's also the breakaway Ravidassis who made their own religion. They have shunned Sikhi. I don't know how many of these are in the west tbh. I was saddened on my last trip to India...was just checking out local pinds and in one of them, I decided to pop into the Ravidassi Gurdwara - there was nothing there, just a picture of Bhagat Ji. I asked an old bibi there what the deal was and she said we don't have Maharaaj Saroop, no Granthi, no nothing. This caste divide has lead to people making their own places of worship on principle but some of them are empty and these people are spiritually deprived....they honestly seemed helpless. I mean even one Sikh could at least just go and do Nitnem with them. Hopefully I'll be able to return there. Aaanyway, I think OP might actually be a troll....I mean he called Dhan Dhan Satguru Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaaj "Sikh Holy Book". And also welcome back Jagsaw Singh.
  11. @puzzled this is why I suggested the Panj Singh - they are considered an authority and represent the Guru. In theory, they can release one from this obligation by the power vested in them. They regularly make judgements concerning other matters e.g. when one has made a mistake, or when one needs guidance or permission of things that fall in a grey area. Along with many other things. But I also said in my suggestion that there would be a price to pay; tankah/punishment.
  12. What? I have never heard this. The simplest explanation of Anand Karaaj is when two people make a promise to Guru Sahib to fulfil their ghrist duty and help each other in Sikhi Jeevan which of course would be having Guru Sahib at the centre of the relationship. It is not marriage to Akaal Purkh. I wouldn't use this example anyway but even if you did want to, what you said is still flawed because by conflating Anand Kaaraj as "marriage to Akaal Purkh" you are implying those great Gursikhs who didn't have Anand Kaaraj were not married to Akaal Purkh. The marriage metaphor/analogy in Sikhi refers to death anyhow. I think it would just be a case by case basis because every situation is different. Probably with a decision best made on the advice of elder Gursikhs or Panj Singh who have been properly informed of the issues. The fact remains even if you see marriage as more contractual as people did in the days of old, life is no longer as simple as it was then, people are no longer as simple, and sh!t goes wrong. There is no one blanket ruling. And we should be realistic about these things in the Panth. I think something like....if two people absolutely cannot find any resolution even with intervention, and those involved (the elders or Panj Singh) recognise this and are in agreement with all factors considered, they should give the two individuals tankah, make the ruling that their promise and obligation has now ceased and send em on their way.
  13. Neo has his own forum; Sikh Awareness Forum. Some deep and good veechar there.
  14. This thread is unironically hilarious if I may say. But a true display of inter-Jatha unity. A Nihang Singh asks a question. An AKJ Singh replies. Correctly I might add. The Taksali Singh still tells him off lmfaooooo.
  15. MrDoaba

    value

    Well, excuse me for not being 108 Sant Baba Mahapurkh Singh Ji Maharaj Mahapurkhan Wale. Apni drishti sambaal.
  16. I'm not sure about actual travel within Italy, and I know you said you understand the airport situation but I saw this the other day and thought it's pertinent nonetheless:
  17. Back in the day many jananis didn't used to dance - my mum and her sister are terrible at dancing and when I was younger I would ask why they didn't dance like other ladies, and instead just stood there, did the mandatory clapping, and swiftly leave. I remember asking my Bibi about this too. According to them the "upper castes" did not engage in this behaviour; it was not permitted and seen as besharmi. However certain castes were permitted, and so dancers were hired I think? Can't remember. Ironic now though. You see women who are well past the age of wearing brightly coloured suits nach'ing and tapp'ing. Oh vi uchi jaat de. Weddings were so simple. Close family would go for Anand Kaaraj, everybody went back to the house, fed the baraat, sagan, bas. Hun pura drama hunda ah.
  18. MrDoaba

    value

    @puzzled Honestly in that situation it's our farj to say something. Nowadays people are overly sensitive but we should still say something...have to remain cool though and say it pyaar de naal.
  19. MrDoaba

    value

    I was once leaving the Gurdwara, was Gurpurab or Baisakhi maybe....anyway, this family was leaving at the same time and I was walking past them. The mother, forgive me for saying, looked typically like a baandri. And her kid, was probably about 7-8, he goes "Mum why don't they give wine here? In Churches they give wine" - in reference to communion, wondering why prasad wasn't like that. His mother told him to be quiet and carry on walking. Now I know kids are inquisitive and ask all manner of questions - and either way I'm not blaming the kid, it's not his fault - but come on man, querying "where da wine at?" in the Gurdwara goes to show how devoid of Sikhi some of these folks are. Not only that but even something as simple as what a Gurdwara is or what it stands for? When people take their kids anywhere else, they tend to explain what it is. For some reason the Gurdwara doesn't count. I'm no one to suggest who should or shouldn't bother going; even a maha paapi who matha teks in front of Maharaajs wipes much of their karam away but I'd be lying if I said the thought didn't occur to me as to why such people actually do bother going.
  20. Yeah heard many variations of this sakhi. Do you know what the actual source is? The point I was making is, throughout ithiaas, when Maharaaj seeked to change something, especially as big of a sanskaar as this, things have been clearer. I just find it odd that there isn't any Bani with the Sakhi - and - that a marriage ceremony came up only at the time of Guru Ramdas Ji. Big gap. Something doesn't quite add up. Hmm possibly with regards to the Pandit, although Vedic Saloks whilst walking around a Gutka? Idk about that. Nobody is fooling themselves. For some reason, and I don't actually know why, you want the fire to be representitive of Agni Devta. A fire can symbolise many things. Meanings and definitions change (as is the case for many things within Sikhi itself); it doesn't necessarily mean it's anthropomorphized or personified in the way you want it to be. This is the same level of reasoning people use to reject the use of jyot (and other practises in common) in Gurdwaras. I've always said, that if Namdharis were normal Sikhs, they would be one of the most rehitvaan, shardavaan Sampardas we have. Their Maryada is solid and they have many good qualities which they put into practise. Plus their Nitnem is big. I've been to Bhaini Sahib and it's really quite a sight. They have this little building where non-stop Jaap/Simran has been going on since like the 1920s. SGGSJ was prakash in one of the buidings as well; was some kinda of triple Akhand Paath going on. And fyi Ajeet, they do believe in Amrit Sanchar and Panj Kakkar, however they don't wear the Kirpan - they were banned from keeping Shastar during Brit rule and for some unbeknownst reason continued to stay without them. They have kept many Puratan traditions going. It's a shame they've fallen in other areas. And before anyone says it, no I am not promoting Namdharis or letting their manmat views off.
  21. Honestly, I don't know. I will look into the matter and see if some answers comes up. Bear in mind I was talking about regular Sikhs. Not the Gurus themselves. Even if there was a fire, it wouldn't have been Vedic in any sense. Well the difference is in what is meant and being suggested. To them "fire" means the whole Vedic shebang and a return to it. One can equally call out practises from Vedic times which are now obsolete and say "lets return to them!" right back to these groups. It's not hard to concieve in reality that certain things remained similar but the intention of disucssing the matter is important. In the case of weddings, there is very little information. Guru Sahib rejected the janeu for example, to which there is a Sakhi and Bani attached. But it is not until Guru Ramdas Ji that Sikhs get their own ceremony, and again I will repeat I was deducing with regards to the use of fire. Lots of ambiguity. Maybe the couple did just stay sitting or standing whilst Laavan were read by Sangat, maybe not. As for Sikhs such as my great-grandparents, that was just a matter of circumstance. One cannot use that argument to promote a return to Vedic style weddings. Yes I'm aware that within Hindu weddings it is indeed Agni Devta. But we are talking about Namdharis, and from what I have seen, there is no invocation from Rig Ved - that's what I'm saying, we assume that the fire present in a Kooka wedding is considered as Agni Devta when in actual fact to me, it seems as though it's....just a fire. Which really has no particular meaning per se; just a continuation of one aspect of the ceremony. They read Suhi Mahalla 4. A fire is only Agni "Devta" if one believes and invokes.
  22. I'm not suggesting the contrary, just speaking from a historical perspective. I'm personally in favour of simple weddings. Shastar Maryada was not around till far later and you know this yourself. There is no suggestion of what you're saying. See why does it have to be "Agni Devta"? I don't think Namdharis actually believe in Agni Devta lol. It's just a fire. Again from what I've heard when the the current Anand Kaaraj was being formalised, Namdharis had representation. They just decided to retain the fire. One is left wondering why Namdharis don't do phere of their Baba or his picture. FYI for the most part, Namdhari Maryada is actually very similar to Hazoor Sahib; very strict. Not excusing their other beliefs however. Perhaps. I've heard this being the case as well. But again it makes you wonder why four Laavs if one is just to stand.
  23. Please don't get in a tizzy lol. I'm not saying Sikhs are Hindu, or that we should change Anand Kaaraj etc. It's just perspective. Yes I'm suggesting, and telling. Pre-Laavan Bani - according to the Sakhi people went to Pandits, we can assume this would've been the Vedic ceremony. Post-Laavan Bani - I used the word "deduce" specifically because one can come to the logical conclusion that fire remained but the hymns changed. The sakhi alludes to just Sangat performing the whole ceremony themselves, without the service of any Pandit or Granthi. Later in Sikh history - there was lack of Sikhi so many people simply got married by the Vedic ceremony. If your grandparents are around or some bazurg ask them. It's highly probable someone in your own family got married this way. This is a well known fact. Some of my great-grandparents got married this way but they were still Sikh. Further in Sikhi history - Mass printing of Saroops began, certain traditions were changed and formalised. I believe Anand Karaj as we know it today was created by Nirankaris (not the manmukh sect, the old ones). Now phere are done around SGGSJ. This is the current system and it works fine. I am not proposing we change it, but the history is still interesting nonetheless.
  24. MrDoaba

    Maya Vatnaa?

    I think haldi is bajjar kurehit. A-N-T-I G-U-R-M-A-T
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