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Posts posted by Khalsa_Girl_1

  1. how one can manage with kachhera in periods????

    You wear underpants underneath your Kishairaa. It's just that simple :)

    I suggest you register on this site so that other bibiyan can contact you via the private messenger.

    And Matheen, she doesn't have to register just for that lol. You just don't necessarily have to reply :)

  2. @khalsa girl

    bhenji ki ho gaya, cud u not even see, that this guy writing some <banned word filter activated> by himself, and writing patshahi 10, leave about dasam granth ji , but it is higlyyy disrespectful toGuru Gobind Singh ji :X

    Such cartoons, need to b punished .

    Punish all the other ones while you're at it.

    I will repeat what I mean... How many ppl are you going to punish? Will you get ashutosh? Will you get all the fake babas who take advantage of female sevadaars? Will you try and shut down all the other sites hosting such disrespectful thoughts/opinions?

    If that's your goal, please start doing it, instead of having posts here.

    And if you were payin attention to my earlier post(s), I CLEARLY mentioned how I didn't know of his blogs or his online comments on any such matter.

    Get off my back, and start shutting down the sites that host such things. Asking me unnecessary things and accusing me of stuff isn't going to do anything.

  3. Er, you got it wrong, that is not how i meant. But anyway Waheguru Ji, I apologise if my comment upset u :umm:

    It was more confusing than upsetting..meh

    Bottom line... I don't see why ppl cannot get along.

    What are ppl gonna do? Clean all the sites... More are gonna pop up

    Just practice what you believe, and stay away from those who you think are a bad influence. Who says you have to read blogs etc that you know will upset you? Meh...

  4. hehe phenji i dont think i can capture the same satirical tone in english :p never mind my comment, it was just a lighthearted nudge :happy:

    Someone has translated it for me. And perhaps, you should not say such things if you do not know what you are talking about. 'Pyaar' my foot ahahaha

    No.. I have never come across this "nindak", as you have put it

    I believe Sikhs these days spend too much time bashing each other. There are not supposed to be any sects/clans in Sikhi, and that is what I was trying to convey.

  5. He was banned from most of sikh sites including sikhsangat. His voice is like a child's, and sayin if you look at him he seems to be retard.

    Ok, I understand why some people dislike what he is posting, but saying his voice is like a child' voice..and that he seems to be a retard when looking at him??? What does that have to do with anything? Please keep those irrelevant concerns to yourself.

    And btw.... He don't even look retarded.

    To all of those who are thinking of taking his blog down, think about all the other blogs/posts/individuals to take down. That's a lot of cleaning to do...lol

    Thonno bada pyaar aa reha ess Guru nindak te phenjeo, ki gall? :rolleyes:

    I'm sorry, I can't understand Punjabi very well. Please post that in English jee
  6. He was banned from most of sikh sites including sikhsangat. His voice is like a child's, and sayin if you look at him he seems to be retard.

    Ok, I understand why some people dislike what he is posting, but saying his voice is like a child' voice..and that he seems to be a retard when looking at him??? What does that have to do with anything? Please keep those irrelevant concerns to yourself.

    And btw.... He don't even look retarded.

    To all of those who are thinking of taking his blog down, think about all the other blogs/posts/individuals to take down. That's a lot of cleaning to do...lol

  7. Hard 'kaur' warriors And people like me are not Sikhs if that's the way you interpret it and people like me do not deserve to be called 'people' (ppl). I forgot to add under:


    Bhul chuk maaf

    The reason why I said it....maybe I should of added it back then...was cus when I read your post thats how I simply interpreted it.

    P.S I'm not on anyones back, if anyone wants to be on my back then I will be all over their back....and this doesn't only go to you.

    Again bhul chuk maaf jeeo

    EDIT: You know what, I'm going to do a sukhmani sahib for you......maybe I have been too harsh. Forgive me.

    I agree with Jag_Singh 100%. The statements in the first post really stereotype girls/women...in a negative manner.

    The reason why women are so hyped up is most likely because of society. The attention is focused on the bride. In almost all cultures, the bride is the 'star of the show'. Out of all the people attending the ceremony, she is the one who stands out, therefore she's under a lot of pressure.

    If society didn't show how 'normal' it is for the bride to pretty up, then all of this wouldn't even be up for discussion. Evidently, cultural notions are to blame.

    It's very upsetting that a girl/woman would even suggest/hint such things, as were introduced in the first post.

    Men and women are both very excited about marriages. If the bride-to-be is more excited about a marriage than the groom-to-be is, there's something very very wrong...

  8. Here is the main reason why I am asking all of this: My sister's name does not have a meaning. It does not have a any ties to any religion/culture etc. It is a made-up name. Completely made up. This is what I am asking.

    ***I am not asking about "Jennifer Kaur" or "Jefferey Singh".***

    Thank you.

    Ok sorry, lol

    Usually when you take Amrit, Panj Pyaarey ask you if you name has been given according to Sikh tradition . If no then the Panj Pyaarey take a Hukum and a new name is given.

    Lol.. I didn't think I'd have to actually explain one of the reasons for my question(s), but I guess some people really thought I was ready to give some next "Sarah Kaur" or "Justin Singh" name....aint the case folks

    Her first name is completely made up, but she uses "Kaur" as her last name..not our actual 'surname'.

    And the facts you just stated are exactly why I'm so interested in asking about it. My father is friends with a few Panj Piyarey, and we are very close family friends. My sister, brother, mother and father, all took Amrit a while back, and he knew what name had been given to my sister since her birth. He still calls her by that name, of course, and none of the Panj Piyarey suggested it be changed.

    I know that when people take Amrit, the Panj Piyarey usually give them a name related to Sikhi, but is that a cultural tradition?.. Or is it mandatory after taking Amrit?

    Thanks again.

    btw, wat is ur sisters name??

    Her name is: Ipan Kaur

    Short "i", and the word "pun"

  9. Sikhs should be proud of their God given name.There is a rehatnama that says call a Sikh by his/her full name . FOr example Malkeet Singh or Prabhsharandeep Kaur. Unfortunately this day and age Malkeet has become Mike and Prabsharandeep have become Sharon. People have completely given away their Gurbani inspired birth names and replaced them with Western names which they feel are more suitable for the general population. But Sikhi is about being distinct and being linked to Gurmat that includes having a Gurmat based name.

    WHen a person from a different religion converts to Sikhi Panj Pyaarey always upon tradition change the Name according to the Hukumnama. This is always to inspire a person towards their duty to their Guru. For example would person name George SIngh remember his duty more then a person name GurSevak SIngh. Would person name Hilary Kaur remember her duty to praise WaaheGuru more then Harkeerat Kaur?

    Out of most name Gurmukhi seem to be the most unbiased towards Gender which shows equality in ones identity as a Gursikh. While names like John, Henry, Jennifer, etc are more culturally defined and already give the person a more culturally based custom determined on gender roles. Harkeerat Kaur can be a sant, sipahi, etc. While Jennifer Kaur is just an ordinary John

    Thank you for the information :) I appreciate it.

    But like I mentioned in the last reply, I'm talking about names that do not have any meaning(s), nor relations to anything in particular. I mentioned how I'm not referring to names from a different religion or culture.

    Here is the main reason why I am asking all of this: My sister's name does not have a meaning. It does not have a any ties to any religion/culture etc. It is a made-up name. Completely made up. This is what I am asking.

    ***I am not asking about "Jennifer Kaur" or "Jefferey Singh".***

    Thank you.

  10. waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki fateh,

    guru pyari sadh sangat ji, daas is hopping to orangize a turban typing competition soon, and i was thinking, what prizes could we give, for 1st, 2nd, 3rd place, and also 5 runner ups...

    please give ideas of prizes...

    thank you.

    How about:

    • A Gutkaa with English translations
    • A top with a Khandaa on it (or anything relating to Sikhi)
    • A Monsters Inc DVD (or a diff movie)
    • An Immortal Productions CD
    • Candy or other goods
    • Stuffed animals

    Umm... How old are the ..hmm..competitors?

  11. Sorry. I apologize for my late replies :|

    The fact is you don't HAVE to do anything you don't want to do. The only reason for you to do so is if you want to feel part of a community. If you don't, do what you like.

    So the reason parents name their children with names relating to Gurbaanee, is to feel that they belong in the community...? That's interesting...

    Khalsa_Girl_1, by bounding the limits of discussion, you've effectively prevented anyone from saying anything.

    I'm sure you already know the answers to the questions you posed, so why ask?

    Sorry to tell you, but you are mistaken. I don't know why someone would waste time asking a question, if their purpose was to prevent someone from saying anything at all... I don't know the answers to this question. I've been looking for answers, but like you pointed out, there's nothing in Gurbaanee that I've found relating to this.
    Gurbani doesn't have any tuks on the naming process, you didn't expect that it would, would you?
    Actually, I DID expect to find a Tuk from Gurbaanee related to my question, because I've almost always found the answers to my questions from Gurbaanee.

    I really don't understand why you think I was unnecessarily asking for help :S

    It's not like the Bible, filled with stories and strictures and stuff.
    ...quite irrelevant. I don't know how this ties to the rest of my/your post. I'm talking about Gurbaanee, but thanks anyway...

    Sorry, couldn't resist this:

    Were you thinking of naming someone Obama Singh?

    I'm only 21. Very far from marriage, let alone naming someone.

    And clearly, you've asked a question that I was expecting from someone who didn't take my post seriously. As I mentioned in my first post, I would like to gain more knowledge. I still knew that at least one person was going to ask such a question, because evidently..some people still cannot resist asking unnecessary questions. Is there something wrong with me trying to educate myself more about Gurbaanee? I don't come into contact with a lot of Sikhs/Punjabis, so if you'd like to actually answer my question, please do.

    And as for naming someone Obama Singh...? You can come up with whatever you'd like, but I'm not even thinking of naming someone..let alone the fact that you think I'd name someone with a name tied to a different religion. C'mon man.. I made it all pretty clear in my first post, and this is exactly why I had done so in the first place.

    Following is the quote from Sikh Rehat MAryada edited by SGPC which is accepted

    all over Sikh PANTH:-

    Chapter XI - Ceremonies pertaining to Social Occasions

    Article XVII - Ceremonies pertaining to Birth and Naming of Child

    a. In a Sikh's household, as soon after the birth of a child as the mother becomes capable of moving about and taking bath (irrespective of the number of days which that takes), the family and relatives should go to a gurdwara with karhah prashad (sacred pudding) or get karhah prashad made in the gurdwara and recite in the holy presence of the Guru Granth Sahib such hymns as "parmeshar dita bana" (Sorath M. 5 ,Guru Granth Sahib p. 628 ), "Satguru sache dia bhej" (Asa M. 5 , Guru Granth Sahib p. 396 ) that are expressive of joy and thankfulness. Thereafter if a reading of the holy Guru Granth Sahib had been taken up, that should be concluded. Then the holy Hukam (command) should be taken. A name starting with the first letter of the hymn of the Hukam (command) should be proposed by the granthi (man in attendance of the holy book) and, after its acceptance by the congregation, the name should be announced by him. The boy's name must have the suffix "Singh" and the girl's, the suffix "Kaur".

    After that the Anand Sahib (short version comprising six stanzas) should be recited and the Ardas in appropriate terms expressing joy over the naming ceremony be offered and the karhah prashad distributed.


    Thank you for the reply :)

    I'm guessing that having the first letter be from the Hukamnaamaa, but picking a name without a meaning is still alright according to Sikhi...?

  12. As far as I know most people do it on clockwise, becasue we wanna have SGGSji on our right side, as most of us are rightys. But may be Nihang singhs are leftys :-)) I never paid attention though how people go around. Something to look for in future.

    According to Sikhi, what is the significance of having the one you respect on your right side? According to Sikhi, does it really matter which side someone/thing is on? Traditionally, all over the world, a person stays to the left of someone who is more respected (older, religious, with authority)...however, according to Sikhi, this really doesn't matter.....right? :6

  13. Thank you all for taking time to reply. I really appreciate it :) ... However...(I'm sorry if I'm asking for too much but..) If it's possible to help me find Tuks that relate SPECIFICALLY TO RACE, I'd really, really appreciate it. As I mentioned in my original post, we all know that Guru jis teach us about the equality of religions/cultures, genders, "castes", but if possible, I would really like to find Tuks explaining the equality of race specifically. I've been trying for a while now, but I didn't come across any yet. Many people are saying "There should be." or "I'm pretty sure there is/are"...however no one has really told me about a specific Tuk directly relating to race.

    Sorry if I seem to be a pain, but this is something that I need help finding.


    Mehtab Singh, are the lines which you have posted up from Gurbaanee? I keep getting one hit, which leads to a facebook link.

  14. What makes anything like that a correct choice is following the religion with unshakable and undying faith...which you are not doing at the moment.
    I know I'm not doing that at the moment. But the thing is, I haven't made my decision yet. I am asking here so I can find somebody who can help me make the decision. My heart tells me one thing very strongly, but my head tells me to be cautious.
    I didn't mean that you haven't made a decision to leave Islam/become a Sikh.. When I stated "following the religion with unshakable and undying faith, which you are not doing at the moment, I actually meant that you are not following Islam with undying faith. You said that you haven't made a decision yet, but I was actually referring to your decision to become a Muslim, I just wanted to say that I'm sorry for the confusion :)
    I don't have much time now, so I can't finish responding to your post sorry.
    'The answered', it's fine. When you get the chance to finish responding, please explain what a 'salam' is, and please explain what Puggis' are.

    I'm sorry, but I'm not familiar with those terms. I thought 'salam' was a Muslim greeting, so now I'm confused.

    Thank you.

  15. Person number three hates kurta/chola/salwar

    Not true. I'm amritdhaaree, and I hate Punjabi suits. Choley are actually very comfortable, but I HATE Punjabi suits. The salwaars get so annoying, like you're wearing snowpants because they're huge like snowpants and because they're just as difficult to put on and take off. And the long shirts aren't a walk in the park either. And dubataas are just plain weird and very useless. Really, Punjabi suits are such a pain.

    Choley = "Kewl", "Boss", Hip, and Phat ..je je!

    The rest of KEERPA's post, pretty agreeable.

  16. i like a girl she is hindu and she is in love with me this girl use to b in my school i know her since those days she is nice by character and is ready to convert in sikhi [singhni] but my family is very conservative and strict my mom says if u hav to marry then it should b a girl from sikh family

    Ok first off... Please make sure you're not making her become a Sikh just to marry you. Changing religions unwillingly for a partner is really not worth it.

    By the way you put it, it doesn't seem like she wants to become a Sikh.

    i like a girl she is hindu

    and the point is shes ready to take up sikhi

    She is a Hindu. She's ready to take up Sikhi... She IS a Hindu. She IS ready to take up Sikhi.... She IS A HINDU. She IS READY to TAKE up SIKHI....... Ok so the reason I kinda put that down like 3 times is because SHE IS A HINDU, therefore SHE IS NOT A SIKH, therefore SHE IS NOT READY TO BECOME A SIKH, because if she was ready to become a Sikh, she would have done so by now.

    What I'm tryin to say is that... If she isn't a Sikh right now, she isn't committed to Sikhi man... She really would have become a Sikh already if she was fully ok with it...and that's why I have come to believe that there is some sort of pressure on her to become Sikh..in order to marry you, I mean.

    but my family is very conservative and strict my mom says if u hav to marry then it should b a girl from sikh family

    LOL!!.. Even very liberal parents who are very lenient don't want their kids to marry someone from another faith. It would be very wrong for one to think that this is something that exists only in the south Asian cultures. I live where most people are either Christian or Catholic, and I'm just letting you know that most of them are liberal and very lenient, but will not accept someone who follows a different sect...not even religion, but sect.. The Christian parents don't want Catholic in-laws.

    my mom i think is right in her views she says today if u marry a girl of diff religion tomorrow ur kids will do the same and may b they can end being non sikhs too i agree to this coz kids do follow there parent to some extent

    It doesn't seem like you need much help from anyone regarding this marriage issue, since you've already stated that you agree/believe there will be a problem with the kids in the future, and you even gave your own reason for it.

    I'm just going to be honest and say that you don't want to marry her. From your post, it's very, VERY easy to tell that you do NOT wish to marry this girl you speak of. You're worried about the kids following a certain (or having no) religion, which means that you are doubting your future relationship with this girl. You're obviously unsure about your future so there really is not much other people can suggest/offer. If you, yourself, are unsure about such important and personal matters that only you and your family would be able to figure out, then there's really nothing that the people on the forum can do.

    I'm sorry if I offended you, but I believe that I had to tell you like it is......and that's just how it is........ You aint ready to marry (her) yet.

  17. Thing is, I have some issues with some parts of Islamic theology. For example, the concept of Eternal Hell (how can a benevolent, loving God ever condemn even the greatest sinner for eternity?), as well as issues with several other less crucial things. There are so many things within Islam that my heart can never accept, even if my head does. I want to follow what I really believe, and to have heroes and concepts I truely admire, rather than just following dogma because it's there and 'towing the party line'.

    I have one thing to say about the secrecy bit if you're an adult, and that is: If you are an adult, I'm telling you straight up that you're a bit too worried about keeping this a secret.
    I couldn't search further, as it would mean going into areas with lots of Muslims who know me, and talking to 'Puggis' might arouse suspicions.

    It shouldn't be something you're so worried about. You know... If your Muslims friends disown you, they aren't really your friends eh..?
    It is of great importance to me that this is kept secret for the time being. Even if I do not convert, my Muslim friends will be greatly saddened if they become suspicious.

    And so what if they find out you're thinking of converting? Whenever someone converts to Islam, the person who helped the individual convert always says something along the lines of "You made the right choice." or "You've seen the light."... However, the person who helped the new Muslim convert is not God, therefore cannot judge that individual and then declare such a thing. Everyone who is devoted to their religion sees the light. Just because one person really likes her/his religion, doesn't mean it is "the" light. If God sees everyone as equals, why would God only show "the" 'light' to a certain number of people? What I mean by this is...choosing a religion (don't matter which one it is) does not mean you made 'the' correct choice. What makes anything like that a correct choice is following the religion with unshakable and undying faith...which you are not doing at the moment.

    Thing is, you're confused. I really suggest that you understand what you truly wish for. Like... You know for a fact that there are things about Islam that you cannot accept, however you're worried about your friends disowning you. PICK ONE!...Faith or peers?

    Thing is, I have some issues with some parts of Islamic theology.

    If you have ANY issues with Islam, you should be more worried about your faith/state of mind, rather than worry about your peers disowning you. You said you're suffering from depression already, but trust me buddy...depression is inevitable when you cannot choose what you want because of worrying about what your peers/"friends" want.

    There are so many things within Islam that my heart can never accept, even if my head does.

    Like I said...your faith/state of mind is what you should be concerned about, not people disowning you. If you can "never accept" "so many things within Islam", why did you convert?

    It's up to you to decide what's more important to you, not what's important to your friends/"friends". No one should stick to a religion because she/he is worried about the religious community, family, or friends disowning them for changing religions.

    To better understand what your personal beliefs etc are, what exactly do you dislike/disagree about/with Islam. You said that you don't like how you cannot give a 'salam' to a 'Kafir'.

    This is one of the things I dislike about Islam. Why do we have this exclusionistic sense of brotherhood? I'm not even allowed to give salam to a 'Kafir'!

    What do you mean by giving 'salam' to a 'Kafir'? What is a 'salam' and what is a 'Kafir'? and..What are 'Puggis'?
    I couldn't search further, as it would mean going into areas with lots of Muslims who know me, and talking to 'Puggis' might arouse suspicions.

    Please don't feel offended about anything I stated, but I honestly believe that you are very unsure about what you want to achieve by following a (any) religion.

  18. GurFateh.

    I was wondering if someone could help me find Gurbaanee Tuks that explain the importance of understanding that all races are equal. We all know that Gurbaanee teaches us that both genders are equal to each other, and that people of all faiths are equal to each other, and that a caste doesn't matter either. However I would like to to know if someone could help me find Gurbaanee Tuks that explains the equality of races, or something of the sort, even though I know that Sikhi teaches us that every human is equal. I just haven't really read any Tuks specifically explaining the equality of all races.



  19. GurFateh.

    I was wondering if I could get some help on something, with (if possible) Gurbaanee Tuks to help me understand more about a certain topic.

    I would like to know what is acceptable in Sikhi when it comes to choosing a name. What I mean is.. When choosing a name, what (rules) do we, as Sikhs, need to (abide by) pay attention to?

    I know that almost all new Sikh-parents go to the Gurudwara to listen to a Hukamnaamaa, and then decide on a name for their child(ren) that begins with the same letter as the Hukamnaamaa started with... However, I'm wondering about other rules/guidelines, and such to abide by/pay attention to, which (if any) evidently should be followed by Sikhs.

    Hope my following questions further explain what I'm asking...

    Does the name HAVE TO begin with the same letter as a Hukamnaamaa?


    Does the name HAVE TO have a meaning?


    Does the name HAVE TO be from Gurmukhee?


    Does the name HAVE TO be derived from/relating to Sikh literature?

    I'm pretty sure most of you understand why I chose the famous quotes as my topic title. "What's In A Name? That which we call a rose / By any other name would smell as sweet;"

    Before replying to my post, please note that I would really appreciate it if no one posts personal opinions alone. I would like to know what Sikhi teaches us more than knowing some of the personal opinions out there. What I mean to say is...please don't bash me or ignore my questions to, instead, tell me your personal views on this thread/topic.

    (For example, please don't rhetorically ask me What's wrong with a Sikh name? or Do you know a Sikh thinking of a more western name? or please don't say Why should we stop using Sikh names just to fit in?. Pleeeeeeeeeeease don't ask me those kinds of questions because..

    A.] There's nothing wrong with a Sikh name.

    B.] I'm not thinking of a random name from another culture/religion/race etc

    C.] No one I know is thinking of a more western name.

    Also..please don't say that It's better for a Sikh to choose a Sikh name.)

    If it is not evident through Gurbaanee that picking a Sikh name is better. I agree that it is a blessing to take the first letter of the Hukamnaamaa as the first letter of a Sikh's name, but what about the name itself? I seriously just wish to understand more about the Sikhi rules/guidelines when it comes to names.

    Thanks. (..and sorry for the long post.)


  20. also to all the people who have implied that i would not be looking after, or would be abandoning his mother in a care home, must not have read the original post properly, as i clearly said that i thought it a good compromise to live nearby and visit his mother everyday. i fail to see how that is not looking after her?

    Ermm.. Quite honestly penji...living right next door ISN'T even properly taking care of her. When you're old, your body is very unpredictable, so I'm sorry. I completely disagree with you here. Taking care of her is taking care of her...not living in another house, while she could (God forbid) be in pain, or couldn't move. She lost her husband, so please put yourself in her shoes and think about what is important. She will live a safer, healthier and better life if she is going to live with you.

    - She's not young, and she will need help at random times. Perhaps she couldn't reach the phone or whatever..

    - Even if you lived right next door..suppose she (God forbid) trips/falls/gets dizzy, you won't know. So what's the use of living right beside her, let alone around the street.......................???

    - Would you like it if your mom wasn't being looked after properly?

    *The best you can do is to live alone with your (future) husband and mother-in-law for now...and when your (future) sister(s)-in-law all get married, one can take your mother-in-law with her, OR you take her in your home.*

    You're on a Sikhi forum, so I'm gonna have to point out....Guru jis have taught us to respect our parents, AND if you're not going to agree to have your mother-in-law live with you because you want to be alone, that IS being selfish...which is disrespectful.

    Again.. Would you want your mother living alone, or would you want your mother and (possible) sister-in-law to not come to an agreement about such an important matter?

    If he doesn't have a father anymore, it makes sense why he's considering having his mom live with you guys.

    In this situation, I honestly believe you should put aside your personal desires. And man...I KNOW that if I were to get married, I would..

    - make sure the guy doesn't have the responsibility of taking care of his parents waaaaaaaay ahead of time (as soon as one would sense/feel the compatibility)


    - make sure I have an excellent and close/open relationship with the parents-in-law if I were to live with them


    - compromise with him and his mother if this situation ever came up (meaning I would agree with them)

    If you have a great relationship with her, I fail to understand why this situation is a problem for you.......

    It's seva, man. Honestly.. If you love ...(even) like him, you would be willing to compromise.

    When you are married, you are one. His parent(s) become(s) your parent(s). Yours become his. His sisters/brothers/cousins/aunts/uncles, etc are all yours as well. So when you're thinking of his mother, you should not think about having to take care of his mother..but instead your mother. So please picture your mother in the same situation.

    Here, I will have to point out that I really DO believe you are being selfish.

    If he, himself, agreed with you earlier on that you would without your parents-in-law...and now he's saying that he can't..that he has to live with his mom...that obviouslyyyyyyy means this wasn't his plan either.

    Therefore, I think you need to be a little less selfish at the moment.

    Think about it penji.... He is her creation. Why not cherish the opportunity of living with the one who gave birth to the man you have come to love, and see as a great man.

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