Raju

right now, we are living in the end of Kalyug. But as you know the Sun shines brightest before it sets. peak of Kalyug was between 1600 and 1800.

that is not an admission of a wrong .. I do have colourful analogies for such admissions but will reserve that for a later day whem emotions do not run high. how is it that a human being can say with a straight face .. that *I have not sinned* ? For a beginning ask the Chinese if the Sikhs did any wrong to them .. I can show you film clips where you have Sikh recruits of British Army patrolling the streets and doing things that do not exactly cover oneself in glory. It is one thing to sit around and blame Hindus for all ills plaguing a group of people and it is another thing to at least be a bit humble while constantly mocking other groups of humans. Learn to accept mistakes and then when you fling accusations at others, they become start sounding all the more credible. The world sits up to listen what's going on. Mind you as I sit here I am not saying these words in a combative tone, but in a remorseful one wherein I see all manner of hatred being propagated without any attempt at introspection.

>>Nice try. Some key differences though. Indira's actioins cannot in any way shape or form be considered 'leftist'. She didn't consider herself a 'leftist'. Hence I find you referring to her as one problematic. What do you mean 'nice try' .. ? Are you saying Stalin was entirely different .. a kindly soul ? Indeed, but why 'get Indira assasinated' in November 1984? What possible purpose could it serve at that point in time? If you can't answer this conclusively, then it is just another conspiracy theory. to further their geo-political goals in India and the region. to increase economic leverage since Indira was blocking India's economic integration into west. this is what increased Indira's paranoia.

chatanga, you want to exist in a comfort zone where Sikhs have done no wrong. whereas I am willing to accept that Indira was wrong. & Rajiv too had sinned. what is there to speculate in this. this is a fact. the Sikhs today are equally antagonistic towards the hindus and muslims. Or you can put it that both hindus and muslims in west Punjab have a lot of grouse against Sikhs. the roots of this antagonism were seeded by the british policy in the region of cultivating Sikhs as a military force to futher their geo-political goals. To generate a clap or for an even to occur always requires two parties to act. It cannot be generated by actions on one side alone.

actually Muzumdar, I can not answer to your questions. Due to some authorization problems .. will try ltr. >> Are you insane? 'Leftist-leaning'? Indira Gandhi is renowned for locking up, butchering and persecuting members and supporters of all of the communist parties of India. She is also renowned for using communalism in order to win elections and a forced sterilisation programme; hardly 'leftist' traits. Even if we take the uneducated illiterate masses, they certainly do not see her as a 'leftist'. Have you heard of a certain Comrade Stalin .. ?? >>No. Enough with the conspiracy theories. Her death was born out of the deep and profound Sikh cultural concept of zulum, which the Sikhs simply cannot tolerate. the local perpetrators of such crimes are always the natives. the masterminds are not Indian though. the white man always keeps his hands clean. CIA has budget of $200 billion not for just watch stars and skies. It is to arrange political assasinations and foment insurgencies in east block and third world. Even recently do you remember the Orange and color revolutions in various parts of the world. In Tibet, Burma, Ukraine, Belarus, Kyrghyzstan all by same western groups. Nehru was foisted upon India by the west. It is highly confusing how Gandhi fell for this joker. But it just shows that all humans are fallible.

ya, MKLQ you understood what was going on in that interview.

You are correct Indian Govt has a problem because they do not seem to handle law & order problems well ever. But there are countless times when law & order problems have been handled well but the Indian govt and the tyranical hindooo never get credit for these. they are just singled out whenever they commit any mistakes.

I can and do understand Sikh ethos and emotions in this matter. though I am making a conscious effort to keep it aside in this case for greater clarity on the issue. I am saying something different. Developing countries need stability the most. And events like 84 happen when internal instability is aided by external forces. 84 was the reaction of a panicked and underprepared govt. they were worried more by external factors rather than solely by internal ones. It was kinda similar. Except that was a instance of hindus killing hindus (something you say never happens in Hindu India). Again a common factor was the obstinacy of one woman. The chief minister of Rajasthan who was a woman. Similar to the way Indira Gandhi handled 84, except that 84 got way out of hand due to interference from other quarters. the psyche of Indian politicians has been studied and well-understood. especially in the west. here is a quote by Shakespeare in King Lear this is how powerful interests in western world toy and play with countries in third world. they cleverly instigate and use forces in the third world against each other. they take glee in the death and destruction and then moralize as if to people lower their own bearing. and keep their hands clean and above board.

yes, Indira Gandhi is considered this great leftist-leaning leader who was paranoid about CIA and the last one who really looked after Indian Interests. She partitioned Pakistan and won Bangladesh. In India her moves in Golden Temple were considered poor judgement and advice given to her by agencies and those close to her coupled with her paranoia that resulted in her taking lot of poor decisions including pampering Bhinderanwale je for her personal political interests, just like Badal has accused Congress of pampering Simranjit Mann in his interview with Shekhar Gupta. (video link posted in Sikh Politics thread). I personally am of the opinion that her death was carefully planned by western intelligence agencies because she opposed and stymied their economic and strategic plans in India. Same with Rajiv's death that was financed and funded from middle-east from where $84 million were transferred to LTTE's accounts. Who gave these funds to LTTE and an HPG-82 Grenade suit was supplied to LTTE by Adnan Khashoggi via CIA. Strong national leaders in developing countries were considered to be an obstacle in plans of western elite. They needed to eliminate these people through political assasinations. So as a result India had only weak leaders henceforth. Ofcourse common people in India do not believe so, they do not have necessary information. This is only my opinion.

mann qaum layee qurban, how can you propagate a falsehood like this. Let's say Indira Gandhi carefully and meticulously planned slaughter of Sikhs before and after her death. Point conceded. But that was just one incident And you are comparing the likes of Abdali and Ghauri who have invaded 'from the front' countless times to a woman. Something is seriously wrong with you guys. Afghans were are are penniless paupers. Their land was barren and dry like a bald man's head. Nothing grew on it. the only way they could prosper was by becoming a parasite and feeding off others lands. and thus a highway robber who struck it big became a national hero. Everybody has a standard .. everybody belongs to a certain class .. and this is their class. Just look at them with a mixture of contempt and pity. And ignore the crap out of them. peace *Afghans were and are penniless paupers.

He talks about Simranjit Singh Mann in that interview. & if that ain't motivation enough for ya .. then this interview particularly focuses on his views on periods of militancy/terrorism in Punjab. How he views his 17 yrs in Jail.

Give it up J. that Abdali dude is sure interesting. We can discuss it tomorrow. please stick around.

why is the conversation box not visible on my desktop ? doesn't God wanna speak with me ?

Never, I accepted your truth with all humility. Now I gotta sleep. take care

Firstly respect every human. This makes us worthy in the eyes of the Lord. War is somewhat like an internet argument. If you lost patience, then both can be lost. brave warrriors never lose their patience. do not mistake patience for cowardice. no offence & have a good day bye

the sentence is blasphemy. the Khan dude is plain damn unlucky. Probably they have discriminated against him because he is muslim.

the reason why I cited his case particularly was because he was a 70-yr old man, if not older. I thought there were better ways to reason with such an old man rather than roughing him up. Probably our culture is different in that respect. Do you watch American television ? So many people say so many things about Jesus .. he is routinely made fun of and Jews talk dirty about Christians in private and their Rabbis mock Christ all the time and use extremely vulgar language about him. In fact you can see Jewish comedians make fun of Jesus left, right and centre. Yet does it matter much to Christians. And apne, your kissing my sister would hardly evoke any emotion from me. At the most I would think you are trying to flirt. But I guess what you meant was what my reaction would be if my sister's modesty was outraged etc. Didn't Guru Gobind Singh say 'chidiya te naal baaz ladaawa' (I shall make the meek sparrow fight the hawk), yet here everyone is fighting the meek and trying to be like the baaz. Everybody hates the meek hindu but secretly admires the 'macho' crud taliban (there are even Punjabi songs by Gurdas Mann saying he wants to be like taliban). Just reverse the role of the old Mughal today and you get the Mughal wannabes. Nobody wants to fight the just and right war. Everybody just wants to take the easy way out and side with the strong. Especially younger generation. and apne you have reached my sister, when are my mother and father going to make an appearance in your posts. :gg: :lol: J, why do you give so drastic examples. the sky hasn't fallen down on our heads. peace

what's your point J. the Lions are being poached by neighbouring jungals ? apne, you have said a lot of things. But firstly you have accused me of being a 'hindutva ideologist'. To all those in this forum who think I am a 'hindutva ideologist' and thus worthy of derision and contempt, I have suggested one uniform solution. Please consider me a 'hindutva ideologue' for all intents and purposes. To all the haters I desire to be what they hate most. In your eyes the hindus are weaklings of the highest order .. so that is what I want to be. I don't want to be associated with the strong .. I desire to be associated with the weak. Coming back to topic. The reason I bought up this topic was with a specific purpose. During a discussion on NDTV after the Dera Sacha Sauda issue had flared up there was a particular Sikh gentleman on the panel who disagreed with the rest of the participants who behaved like a mob. he was a mona and not with full swaroop. Now after the show was over, a few of the participants went over and roughed him up. At that time, I felt that this was more akin to wahabbi/talibanic behaviour or suppressing all dissent with force. Rather than the behaviour of a self-confident and self-assured group of people though harbouring a genuine grievance.

apne, you will be surprised when you hear that these are the same accusations flung against Seventh Day'ers and JW's. there are people who claim that these two 'New World' sects have been created by the intelligence agencies viz CIA so that the masses can be kept in control of the elites. Coming back to topic, I was not exactly seeking a practical answer. But as I was typing down an article for this topic yesterday, I had an aha moment .. it suddenly struck me that the IBN debate on Sikhi was near the target afterall. In the sense Sikhs are insecure with Dera's because their numbers were already so few. THe Christians were not as insecure with JW's or Seventh Day'ers because they already had large numbers. The emergence of Dera's would splinter and fragment what was already a small group of followers and thus the resultant insecurity. Is this reasoning correct ?

Yesterday I was wondering that apart from Seventh Day Adventists I was forgetting one more such group. But couldn't recollect it's name. It is today while going through some material that I was reminded of another group of scoundrels. They go by the name of Jehovah's Witness. And they dispute the trinity. For instance http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehovah's_Witnesses

this is incorrect. One of the major criticism's of Seventh Day Adventists are that they badmouth Christ.

Sarpanch jee, you always avoid going deeply into Sikhi. I don't want you to copy, paste some quote from somewhere as a result. I want your interpretation in your own words as to why you think it is different. It is surprising that your knowledge of Sikhi often comes across as being on the feeble side as compared to your knowledge of 'other things'.

Kindly elaborate your thoughts in this matter .. why you think so ? ... Sarpanch I am waiting to hear your take on this.

Prakash Singh Badal . your hero Interviewed by Shekhar Gupta, Editor, Indian Express Watch video here, look under Walk the talk http://www.ndtv.com/convergence/ndtv/videopod/default.aspx

Raju, i think you are high on opium. then tell me why I am wrong. It is not as if I am an expert on Sacha Sauda or anything. All I know is that there are many Dera's in Pakistan like Dera Baba Adam, Dera Ghazi Khan, Dera AdamKhel .. What it actually means is greek and latin to me. this entire Sacha Sauda controversy was created when Mr. Sacha Sauda himself decided to stir the amrit with his Khanda before a token Panj Pyare and attempt to copy what Guru Gobind Singh did. Am I right or am I stepping on everyone's toes ? :umm: This is like a self-styled preacher or evangelist washing the feet of his disciples in imitation of Jesus. But he or his sectt is not striclty a follower of Jesus. Is my understanding correct. If not kindly explain to me so that I can understand better. no offence intended to anyone peace.