gurdeepsinghjohal

Scholar's of panth who have written ardaas, only they can explain. :respect:

if U want to c SGPC run gurudwara having pic of Guru Harkishan and people go there and vow to the photo near prakash of Guru Granth Sahib I can certainly post that. There is quote " Stop praising what your grandparents did, start worrying what your grandchildren will do". Think about it. We can argue as much as we can, WE HAVE GURU THAT IS GURU GRANTH SAHIB IF YOU WANT TO BE NEAR TO GURU, GET A SWAROOP OF GURU SAHIB IN YOUR HOUSE. If you want he should be always near to you, memorize gurbani. Guru Nanak's guru SHABAD GURU AND OUR'S IS ALSO SHABAD GURU. My opinion is we should say not to pics ONLY OF GURU'S not of any historic event.

The picture was on facebook With tag "With pride say,we are hindu" posted by RSS. They are putting Guru Gobind Singh ji with Shivaji and Maharana Pratap and even calling Guru ji Hindu and it was shared by my AMRITDHARI FRIEND.

I am bit confused with your argument. You are quoting from gurbani when did I quoted anything from gurbani,never,infact all the points were made from gurbani to prove the fact about using Dev. And without quoting any refrence from gurbani and I only used one, that was to say if you go by gurbani why don't you call Guru Ramdass Sodhi. Note of Dilgeer carries all the reference which were used by Sarbloh and he(Sarbloh) rather gave his well researched reference from gurbani for his view. Lines from Sukhmani is confusing me. The point is clear I appreciate his point of view and Sarbloh's different opinion.

They are two different to begun with, yes they are two different things. Second thing, sikhs never had pictures of guru's that is also proven fact. Now days this trend is rising and you will see sikhs also have clay or steel made idols of guru ji's and do "dhoop and agarbati". Somebody will question this increasing trend of worship before it goes through roof. Anything going against sikhism, if it is questioned then we start calling everybody a missionary is rather some hard thing to do. One should be proud missonary of Guru Nanak Sahib.

22G tusi v sant ho gaye, bahut vadiya

“To be brief, Nanak’s followers scorn images. Their belief is that all Gurus are Nanak...They do not recite the mantras of the Hindus and do not pay respect to their idol-temples. They do not count the avtaras for anything. They do not have any attachment to Sanskrit, which the Hindus call the language of angels” The above was noted by Persian historian Mobid, in his book Dabistan-i-Mazahib, written around 1645. Translated by Irfan Habib and J.S. Grewal: Sikh History from Persian Sources (page 66). Tuhilka, New Delhi (2001) Its about individaulas they rise to the standards of the values of there GURU'S or they r so weak they need moral support by pictures of GURU'S. We should have historical /war depicting pictures in our homes, But not of Guru's.

GURU GRANTH DEV :biggrin2: GURU GRANTH SAHIB. Dilgeer has a point, I appreciate his point and if u don't its good. People usually have differences but when we have differences we stop listening to them they r right or wrong, calling than simpally they r wrong. It is in gurbani that is why we use DEV TO SHOW RESPECT with Guru Arjan Dev, Guru Angad Dev but r not we biased towards others guru sahibaan like we don't remember them saying Guru Hargobind jeeo Maharaj or Guru Granth jeeo. Maharaj.

Now people countering missionaries will get history re-written. Guru Granth Sahib is JAAGDI JYOT OF 10 GURU SAHIBAAN if u can't see them in Gurbani there is problem. So if one have to see 10 Guru Sahibaan and they should get a photo of Guru Granth Sahib and hang some where in house. Or see them in Gurbani. Guru Granth Guru panth. (If you want to see me in nirgun swaroop see me in Guru Granth Sahib and u want to see me sargun swaroop see me in panth. Raise the panth and remove the photo. ) I might be qouting something wrong here but one might remember some one from this quote. If not god help you.

yes his point of view is required .

Gurbani Grammar By Giani Amritpal singh Ludhiana on Youtube. It will help you to understand gurbani. Keep faith.

Mirza Ghalib

Might be to explain this ਕਹਤ ਕਬੀਰੁ ਸਗਲ ਪਾਪ ਖੰਡਨੁ ਸੰਤਹ ਲੈ ਉਧਰਿਓ ॥੪॥੪॥ कहत कबीरु सगल पाप खंडनु संतह लै उधरिओ ॥४॥४॥ Kahaṯ Kabīr sagal pāp kẖandan sanṯėh lai uḏẖāri▫o. ||4||4|| Says Kabeer, God is the Destroyer of all sins; He is the Saving Grace of His Saints. ||4||4|| or might be he wanted to say he is now Sant.

ਤਿਨਿ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਰਾਮਦਾਸੁ ਸੋਢੀ ਥਿਰੁ ਥਪ੍ਯ੍ਯਉ ॥ We don't use SURNAME and not even DEV. It is do with human tendency Guru Nanak seems short compared to Guru Teg Bhadur that is the only reason We use Guru Nanak Dev or Guru Nanak Sahib. As Guru Teg Bhadur is accordance with our normal natureof speaking two word name we don't use Dev there. This is simple reason or logic for using Dev or Sahib for people. U have quoted so much and u will be aware of some, its only written amar for Guru Amardass Sahib, it doesn't mean they r not showing respect,it was also in case with Guru Gobind Singh even referred Gobind Singh. Gurbani is written poetic verses so sometime time it is required or not required. Guru Ramdass ji was SODHI WE DON'T CALL HIM GURU RAMDASS SODHI TO SHOW RESPECT. We are so habitual using Dev that we now can't replace it with Sahib.

its not clear why kabeer ji collected pots. But one thing is clear how he used mala did rather change.

I think man who gave him mala might had shop of pots want to sell.

Yet We have Guru Tegh Bahadur Sahib, Guru Amardass Sahib, Guru Ramdass Sahib , Guru HarGobind Sahib and Guru Harkrishan Sahib. We can use Sahib or Dev. Sri is something like this Sardar Prakash Singh Not Sri Prakash Singh that is the difference.

Why to waste money, use the mala instead. :cool2:

I take ur point but why we don't say Guru Gobind singh Dev I mean it is for respect then why we don't use it with other Guru Sahibaan.

From this : ਜਬ ਕੀ ਮਾਲਾ ਲਈ ਨਿਪੂਤੇ ਤਬ ਤੇ ਸੁਖੁ ਨ ਭਇਓ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ जब की माला लई निपूते तब ते सुखु न भइओ ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥ Jab kī mālā la▫ī nipūṯe ṯab ṯe sukẖ na bẖa▫i▫o. ||1|| rahā▫o. Ever since this worthless son of mine began chanting with his mala, we have had no peace at all! ||1||Pause|| Kabeer Sahib ji changed a lot ka(n)t(h)ae maalaa jihavaa raam || The mala is around my neck, and the Lord's Name is upon my tongue. pg 479 Now mala is in neck rather then hand.

First of all, I read your first post. Secondly Guru Nanak Sahib travelled to many places he is also called Nanak Lama and many other names. Thirdly I never turned a blind eye infact this was the reason for my last post. I am not here to argue on your different opinion then Dr. Dilgeer. You have your point made clear and Dr. Dilgeer is very clear about his logic. You analised the whole note but many will not read that big note and the above post of member is the clear example so I posted history part again.

Onlyfive posted this shabad. ਬਿਲਾਵਲੁ ॥ बिलावलु ॥ Bilāval. Bilaaval: ਨਿਤ ਉਠਿ ਕੋਰੀ ਗਾਗਰਿ ਆਨੈ ਲੀਪਤ ਜੀਉ ਗਇਓ ॥ नित उठि कोरी गागरि आनै लीपत जीउ गइओ ॥ Niṯ uṯẖ korī gāgar ānai līpaṯ jī▫o ga▫i▫o. Every day, he rises early, and brings a fresh clay pot; he passes his life embellishing and glazing it. ਤਾਨਾ ਬਾਨਾ ਕਛੂ ਨ ਸੂਝੈ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਰਸਿ ਲਪਟਿਓ ॥੧॥ ताना बाना कछू न सूझै हरि हरि रसि लपटिओ ॥१॥ Ŧānā bānā kacẖẖū na sūjẖai har har ras lapti▫o. ||1|| He does not think at all of worldly weaving; he is absorbed in the subtle essence of the Lord, Har, Har. ||1|| ਹਮਾਰੇ ਕੁਲ ਕਉਨੇ ਰਾਮੁ ਕਹਿਓ ॥ हमारे कुल कउने रामु कहिओ ॥ Hamāre kul ka▫une rām kahi▫o. Who in our family has ever chanted the Name of the Lord? ਜਬ ਕੀ ਮਾਲਾ ਲਈ ਨਿਪੂਤੇ ਤਬ ਤੇ ਸੁਖੁ ਨ ਭਇਓ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ जब की माला लई निपूते तब ते सुखु न भइओ ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥ Jab kī mālā la▫ī nipūṯe ṯab ṯe sukẖ na bẖa▫i▫o. ||1|| rahā▫o. Ever since this worthless son of mine began chanting with his mala, we have had no peace at all! ||1||Pause|| ਸੁਨਹੁ ਜਿਠਾਨੀ ਸੁਨਹੁ ਦਿਰਾਨੀ ਅਚਰਜੁ ਏਕੁ ਭਇਓ ॥ सुनहु जिठानी सुनहु दिरानी अचरजु एकु भइओ ॥ Sunhu jiṯẖānī sunhu ḏirānī acẖraj ek bẖa▫i▫o. Listen, O my sisters-in-law, a wondrous thing has happened! ਸਾਤ ਸੂਤ ਇਨਿ ਮੁਡੀਂਏ ਖੋਏ ਇਹੁ ਮੁਡੀਆ ਕਿਉ ਨ ਮੁਇਓ ॥੨॥ सात सूत इनि मुडींए खोए इहु मुडीआ किउ न मुइओ ॥२॥ Sāṯ sūṯ in mudīʼne kẖo▫e ih mudī▫ā ki▫o na mu▫i▫o. ||2|| This boy has ruined our weaving business. Why didn't he simply die? ||2|| ਸਰਬ ਸੁਖਾ ਕਾ ਏਕੁ ਹਰਿ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਸੋ ਗੁਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਦਇਓ ॥ सरब सुखा का एकु हरि सुआमी सो गुरि नामु दइओ ॥ Sarab sukẖā kā ek har su▫āmī so gur nām da▫i▫o. O mother, the One Lord, the Lord and Master, is the source of all peace. The Guru has blessed me with His Name. ਸੰਤ ਪ੍ਰਹਲਾਦ ਕੀ ਪੈਜ ਜਿਨਿ ਰਾਖੀ ਹਰਨਾਖਸੁ ਨਖ ਬਿਦਰਿਓ ॥੩॥ संत प्रहलाद की पैज जिनि राखी हरनाखसु नख बिदरिओ ॥३॥ Sanṯ parahlāḏ kī paij jin rākẖī harnākẖas nakẖ biḏri▫o. ||3|| He preserved the honor of Prahlaad, and destroyed Harnaakhash with his nails. ||3|| ਘਰ ਕੇ ਦੇਵ ਪਿਤਰ ਕੀ ਛੋਡੀ ਗੁਰ ਕੋ ਸਬਦੁ ਲਇਓ ॥ घर के देव पितर की छोडी गुर को सबदु लइओ ॥ Gẖar ke ḏev piṯar kī cẖẖodī gur ko sabaḏ la▫i▫o. I have renounced the gods and ancestors of my house, for the Word of the Guru's Shabad. ਕਹਤ ਕਬੀਰੁ ਸਗਲ ਪਾਪ ਖੰਡਨੁ ਸੰਤਹ ਲੈ ਉਧਰਿਓ ॥੪॥੪॥ कहत कबीरु सगल पाप खंडनु संतह लै उधरिओ ॥४॥४॥ Kahaṯ Kabīr sagal pāp kẖandan sanṯėh lai uḏẖāri▫o. ||4||4|| Says Kabeer, God is the Destroyer of all sins; He is the Saving Grace of His Saints. ||4||4|| What we understand by this shabad?

ਭੱਟ ਵਹੀਆਂ’ ਤੇ ‘ਪਾਂਡਾ ਵਹੀਆਂ’ ਤਾਂ ਗੁਰੂ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਦੇ ਵੇਲੇ ਦੀਆਂ ਲਿਖੀਆਂ ਹੋਈਆਂ ਹਨ। ਉਨ੍ਹਾਂ ਵਿਚ ‘ਦੇਵ’ ਸ਼ਬਦ ਨਹੀਂ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਹੋਇਆ। ਸੈਨਾਪਤੀ, ਕੋਇਰ ਸਿੰਘ, ਕੇਸਰ ਸਿੰਘ ਛਿੱਬਰ, ਸ੍ਵਰੂਪ ਸਿੰਘ ਕੌਸ਼ਿਸ਼, ਰਤਨ ਸਿੰਘ ਭੰਗੂ, ਸੁਖਬਾਸੀ ਰਾਮ ਬੇਦੀ ਅਤੇ ਹੋਰ ਲੇਖਕ, ਜਿਨ੍ਹਾਂ ਅਠਾਰਵੀ ਤੇ ਉੱਨੀਵੀਂ ਸਦੀ ਵਿਚ ਸਿਖ ਤਵਾਰੀਖ਼ ਲਿਖੀ, ਉਨ੍ਹਾਂ ਨੇ ਕਿਸੇ ਗੁਰੂ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਦੇ ਨਾਂ ਨਾਲ ‘ਦੇਵ’ ਨਹੀਂ ਲਾਇਆ ਅਤੇ ਗੁਰੂ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਦਾ ਅਸਲ ਨਾਂ (ਗੁਰੂ ਨਾਨਕ, ਗੁਰੂ ਅੰਗਦ, ਗੁਰੂ ਅਰਜਨ) ਹੀ ਲਿਖਿਆ। ਵੀਹਵੀਂ ਸਦੀ ਵਿਚ "ਦੇਵ" ਲਾਉਣ ਦੀ ਇਹ ਗ਼ਲਤੀ ਐਨੀ ਕਬੂਲ ਹੋਈ ਕਿ ਭੋਲੇ ਸਿੱਖ ਇਸ ਨੂੰ ਹੀ ਠੀਕ ਸਮਝਣ ਲਗ ਪਏ। ਉਂਞ ਸਾਡੀ ਕੌਮ ਦੇ ਲੇਖਕਾਂ ਦੀ ਇਹ ‘ਸਿਫ਼ਤ’ ਹੈ ਕਿ ਅੱਖਾਂ ਮੀਟ ਕੇ ਮੱਖੀ ’ਤੇ ਮੱਖੀ ਮਾਰੀ ਜਾਣਗੇ ਪਰ ਜਦੋਂ ਕੋਈ ਗ਼ਲਤੀ ਵੱਲ ਇਸ਼ਾਰਾ ਕਰੇਗਾ ਤਾਂ ਆਖ ਦੇਣਗੇ: "ਛੱਡੋ ਪਰਾਂ!" "ਤਾਂ ਕੀ ਹੈ?" "ਹੁਣ ਤਾਂ ਬਹੁਤ ਕਿਤਾਬਾਂ ਵਿਚ ਆ ਚੁੱਕਾ ਹੈ", ਵਗੈਰਾ... ਧੰਨ ਸਿੱਖੀ!!!ਗੁਰੂ ਨਾਨਕ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਦੇ ਨਾਂ ਨਾਲ ਦੇਵ ਦੀ ਬਹੁਤੀ ਬੀਮਾਰੀ 1972 ਤੋਂ ਮਗਰੋਂ ਸ਼ੁਰੂ ਹੋਈ ਸੀ। 1969 ਵਿਚ ਗੁਰੂ ਨਾਨਕ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਦੇ ਨਾਂ ’ਤੇ ‘ਗੁਰੂ ਨਾਨਕ ਯੂਨੀਵਰਸਿਟੀ’ ਬਣਾਈ ਗਈ ਸੀ। ਇਹ ਯੂਨੀਵਰਸਿਟੀ ਅਕਾਲੀ ਦਲ ਦੀ ਸਰਕਾਰ ਨੇ ਬਣਾਈ ਸੀ। 1972 ਵਿਚ (ਅ)ਗਿਆਨੀ ਜ਼ੈਲ ਸਿੰਘ ਪੰਜਾਬ ਦਾ ਚੀਫ਼ ਮਨਿਸਟਰ ਬਣ ਗਿਆ। ਉਹ ਇਕ ਅਨਪੜ੍ਹ (ਜਾਂ ਅੱਧਪੜ੍ਹ) ਬੰਦਾ ਸੀ। ਅਚਾਣਕ ਉਸ ਦੇ ਦਿਮਾਗ਼ ਵਿਚ ਆ ਗਿਆ ਕਿ ਕੁਝ ਲੋਕ ਗੁਰੂ ਨਾਨਕ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਦੇ ਨਾਂ ਨਾਲ ‘ਦੇਵ’ ਲਿਖਦੇ ਹਨ ਤੇ ਯੂਨੀਵਰਸਿਟੀ ਦਾ ਨਾਂ ਵੀ ‘ਗੁਰੂ ਨਾਨਕ ਦੇਵ ਯੂਨੀਵਰਸਿਟੀ’ ਕਰ ਦੇਣਾ ਚਾਹੀਦਾ ਹੈ। ਉਸ ਨੇ ਪਹਿਲਾ ਕੰਮ ਇਹੀ ਕੀਤਾ। ਨਤੀਜਾ ਇਹ ਹੋਇਆ ਕਿ ਉਸ ਦੇ ਰਾਜ ਦੌਰਾਨ ਗੁਰੂ ਨਾਨਕ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਨੂੰ ਹਰ ਥਾਂ ਦੇਵ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਜਾਣ ਲਗ ਪਿਆ। (ਉਸ ਅਨਪੜ੍ਹ ਸ਼ਖ਼ਸ ਨੇ ਤਾਂ ਰੂਪੜ ਸ਼ਹਿਰ ਨੂੰ ਵੀ ‘ਰੋ ਪੜ’ ਸਮਝ ਕੇ ਇਸ ਦਾ ਨਾਂ ‘ਰੂਪਨਗਰ’ ਕਰਵਾ ਦਿਤਾ ਸੀ। ਅਜਿਹੇ ਅਹਿਮਕ ਲੋਕਾਂ ਦੀਆਂ ਯਭਲੀਆਂ ਨਾਲ ਇੰਞ ਹੀ ਤਵਾਰੀਖ਼ਾਂ ਵਿਗੜਿਆ ਕਰਦੀਆਂ ਹਨ)।ਇਸ ਮਗਰੋਂ ਬਾਦਲ ਦੀ ਸਰਕਾਰ ਨੇ ਵੀ ਇਸ ਯਭਲੀ ਦੇ ਅਸਰ ਹੇਠਾਂ ਬਠਿੰਡਾ ਦੇ ਥਰਮਲ ਪਲਾਂਟ ਦਾ ਨਾਂ ਬਦਲ ਕੇ ‘ਗੁਰੂ ਨਾਨਕ ਦੇਵ ਥਰਮਲ ਪਲਾਂਟ’ ਕਰ ਦਿਤਾ। ਇੰਞ ਹੀ 2004 ਵਿਚ ਗੁਰੂ ਅੰਗਦ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਦਾ ਨਾਂ ਵੀ ਅੱਧਪੜ੍ਹ ਚੌਧਰੀਆਂ ਨੇ ਹੀ ਵਿਗਾੜ ਕੇ ‘ਗੁਰੂ ਅੰਗਦ ਦੇਵ’ ਬਣਾ ਛੱਡਿਆ ਸੀ। ਗੁਰਬਾਣੀ ਦਾ ਫ਼ੁਰਮਾਨ ਹੈ:ਅੰਧਾ ਆਗੂ ਜੇ ਥੀਐ, ਕਿਉ ਪਾਧਰੁ ਜਾਣੈ॥ਆਪ ਮੁਸੈ ਮਤਿ ਹੋਛੀਐ, ਕਿਉ ਰਾਹੁ ਪਛਾਣੈ॥ (ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ, ਸਫ਼ਾ 767) This was not analysed

If u allow, May i start new thread with this shabad.

ok