BhForce

On 4/11/2008 at 4:41 AM, Into the Light said:

When on the cross, Jesus Christ said 'My God, Why hast thou forsaken me'...does anyone have a deeper appreciation to what Jesus meant when he said this?

First, I think you're assuming that Jesus did actually say that.

Maybe he did, in which case I don't know what it's supposed to mean.

But he certainly didn't write those words. There are no writings whatsoever by Jesus.

The Gospel ascribed to Matthew is not necessarily written by the supposed Apostle Matthew. This is a later church tradition.

There are no full copies of the Bible books until hundreds of years later.

Given all of this, one wonders if Jesus said that.

Which suggests the possibility of going down rabbit holes which start off by what "someone said".
 

9 hours ago, redoptics2013 said:

ANyways since I have been away,  I have been  learning Gurmukhi, problem I am having is finding books written  in Gurmukhi. 

For a Sikh book written in easy Punjabi, read Se Kinehiya:

https://www.amazon.com/Kinehiya-English-Sant-Sewa-Singh-ebook/dp/B08P2465WG/

You can read PDFs on Kindle this way:

https://www.cisdem.com/resource/read-pdf-on-kindle.html

After Se Kinhehiya, you may want to read this (also easy Punjabi):

https://sikhbookclub.com/Book/Roop-Gobind-Ka-Raaj-Khalsa-Ka-Sikka-Sone-Ka-By-Bhai-Rama-Singh-Ji

Once you've read these, you can read standard works like Bhai Vir Singh ji, etc. And then the classics like Panth Prakash (hard).

13 hours ago, Premi5 said:

Can anyone give some other examples ? I remember there are some of men from Gurus' times who became an animal and later Sants have come into the world and taken those souls out of that Jooni

Are there other clear examples of how a specific action will lead to specific consequences?

Are those born deaf or blind so, because they caused others to be that way in previous lives ?

There are a few specific examples given in Sikh History (Sakhis). Such as Moola Khatri.

But you should also know that it was (I believe) Sant Bhindrawale who said that while it may be the case that a specific action will lead to a specific reincarnation, it is not our place to make assumptions the other way: I.e., look at someone who is poor or whatever and assert that they did something specifically bad in the previous life.

That's God's domain.

All we need to be concerned with is to live life as Guru ji told us and we'll get the reward of that.

13 hours ago, Premi5 said:

 

It is said in Gurbani (I think) that those who think of their partners/women at death are born again as prostitutes; those who think of their house then become ghosts; those who think of money/greed become pigs. 

Just for context, this is that Shabad by Bhagat Trilochan ji:

ਗੂਜਰੀ ॥
Gujri.
ਅੰਤਿ ਕਾਲਿ ਜੋ ਲਛਮੀ ਸਿਮਰੈ ਐਸੀ ਚਿੰਤਾ ਮਹਿ ਜੇ ਮਰੈ ॥
At the last moment, he has thinks of wealth and dies in such a thought,
ਸਰਪ ਜੋਨਿ ਵਲਿ ਵਲਿ ਅਉਤਰੈ ॥੧॥
is born again and again as the serpent species.
ਅਰੀ ਬਾਈ ਗੋਬਿਦ ਨਾਮੁ ਮਤਿ ਬੀਸਰੈ ॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
O sister do not ever forget the Name of the Master of the world. Pause.
ਅੰਤਿ ਕਾਲਿ ਜੋ ਇਸਤ੍ਰੀ ਸਿਮਰੈ ਐਸੀ ਚਿੰਤਾ ਮਹਿ ਜੇ ਮਰੈ ॥
At the last moment, he who thinks of a woman, and dies in such a thought,
ਬੇਸਵਾ ਜੋਨਿ ਵਲਿ ਵਲਿ ਅਉਤਰੈ ॥੨॥
he is born again and again as a prostitute.
ਅੰਤਿ ਕਾਲਿ ਜੋ ਲੜਿਕੇ ਸਿਮਰੈ ਐਸੀ ਚਿੰਤਾ ਮਹਿ ਜੇ ਮਰੈ ॥
At the last moment, he who thinks of the sons and dies in such a thought,
ਸੂਕਰ ਜੋਨਿ ਵਲਿ ਵਲਿ ਅਉਤਰੈ ॥੩॥
he is born again as the swine species.
ਅੰਤਿ ਕਾਲਿ ਜੋ ਮੰਦਰ ਸਿਮਰੈ ਐਸੀ ਚਿੰਤਾ ਮਹਿ ਜੇ ਮਰੈ ॥
At the last moment, he who thinks of mansions and if he dies in such thought,
ਪ੍ਰੇਤ ਜੋਨਿ ਵਲਿ ਵਲਿ ਅਉਤਰੈ ॥੪॥
he is born again and again as a goblin.
ਅੰਤਿ ਕਾਲਿ ਨਾਰਾਇਣੁ ਸਿਮਰੈ ਐਸੀ ਚਿੰਤਾ ਮਹਿ ਜੇ ਮਰੈ ॥
At the last moment, he who thinks the Lords, and if he dies in such a thought;
ਬਦਤਿ ਤਿਲੋਚਨੁ ਤੇ ਨਰ ਮੁਕਤਾ ਪੀਤੰਬਰੁ ਵਾ ਕੇ ਰਿਦੈ ਬਸੈ ॥੫॥੨॥
Says Tirlochan, that man is emancipated and the yellow - robed Lord abides in his heart.

This shabad makes no sense in the Missionary paradigm. They claim avagavan (going back and forth, i.e., reincarnation) refers to man going to good thoughts vs bad thoughts. Quite a stretch, but sometimes they could make it work.

They can't make it work here. I mean, why is Gurbani referring to "ant kaal" (end time)? Then the word Avtar. And the pesky word Jon(i). I.e., yoni, or literally birth canal or life.

It's very clear this shabad is in reference to end-of-life. What sense would it make for a young man who doesn't have sons? Or a wife?

2 minutes ago, Jacfsing2 said:

What about people like Ravan or Harnakash who get Mukti despite being tyrants?

I'm trying to understand your point, could you explain it further?

I made the point that Gurbani says sinners will be punished, but plenty of sinners aren't punished in this world, so therefore there must be next world where they are punished.

Where were you trying to go with your point?

Secondly, could you explain how Harnaksh and Ravan got mukti?

Gurbani says God killed the evil Harnaksh:

ਹਰਣਾਖਸੁ ਦੁਸਟੁ ਹਰਿ ਮਾਰਿਆ ਪ੍ਰਹਲਾਦੁ ਤਰਾਇਆ ॥
Wicked Harnakhsh, the Lord killed and saved Prehlad. p451

On 12/27/2022 at 9:43 AM, Premi5 said:

Why not approach one of the existing Gurbani App makers? I think that would be better idea than creating something more 'niche'

Existing app(s) could add your idea as a new feature to their app

I actually think the separate app is a good idea. Wedging more stuff into the existing Gurbani apps will just make them overloaded.

It's hard enough already to get volunteers to do "arth" (meanings) seva in the Gurdwara. A simple interface to do one thing (arth) is good.

Having a dozen different menus and dozens of submenus for apps wedged in would be a bad thing.

On 12/22/2022 at 11:02 AM, jkvlondon said:

Even socalled white sikhs who waved the sikhi flag for their own pockets have abandoned their sikhi saroop and denounced their loyalty to sikhi values. Just look at 3HO/ Sikhnet baba  Gurmustak Singh  he now has announced that he doesn't believe in the aims of sikhi .

Do you have a link where Gurmustak Singh said this?

On 12/29/2022 at 6:26 AM, Premi5 said:

 

We all know that Reincarnation and Karma are complex and the results of current and past lives. 

Bro, there's already a thread on reincarnation. Could you repost there? And I will respond.

7 hours ago, Ranjeet01 said:

I do not like this topic header  because the way it is framed is very christian like.

Our dharam has been abrahamised. 

I do not think the word "sin" is really appropriate to describe "paap " as our concepts go into far deeper level.

Bro, while I agree some Sikhs try to sneak in Abrahamic concepts, I'm at a loss to understand your objection to the word "sin". I mean, how does it differ from "paap"?

When you know one language, and then you learn another, you correlate words with similar meanings. For example, you call a dog "<banned word filter activated>" and then when you learn English, you find that people are calling 4-legged animals that bark "dog" and you correlate the two words.

So my question for you is: How do "sin" and "paap" differ?

Here's another verse that doesn't fit with missionary thought:

ਸਭ ਹਰਿ ਕੀ ਕਰਹੁ ਉਸਤਤਿ ਜਿਨਿ ਗਰੀਬ ਅਨਾਥ ਰਾਖਿ ਲੀਓਇ ॥

ਜੈਕਾਰੁ ਕੀਓ ਧਰਮੀਆ ਕਾ ਪਾਪੀ ਕਉ ਡੰਡੁ ਦੀਓਇ ॥੧੬॥

Ye all praise the Lord, who protects the poor and the weak.
He grants laurels to the virtuous and to the evil-doer He awards punishment. p89

Now ask yourself, are the poor being protected in this world? Are the sinners (classic examples like Hitler or Auranzeb) punished in this world? Not necessarily. Plenty of killers and tyrants got off scot free or at the most were killed. So just one death in return for hundreds or thousands of killings?

It seems clear that these verses only make sense if there is a next world in which justice is done, which the missionaries adamantly deny.

Secondly, Guru ji is asking us to praise Hari (God). If God doesn't exist, or "Hari" just means nature, then what's the point of praising nature? That's like praising a rock or a river.

None of this makes sense with missionary interpretation but it all makes sense in traditional interpretation.

On 12/23/2022 at 5:45 PM, Guest DumbIdiotBanda said:

ਮਾਨੁਖ ਹੁਤੋ ਜੋਨਿ ਪਸੁ ਪਰਿਯੋ ॥੫॥

Although human being, he had embraced the life of an animal.(5)

An important thing to note regarding the Dasam Granth Sahib is that it does not lay out Bhagti principles in detail, but rather only mentions them.

The second thing to keep in mind is that there are verses in Gurbani that can fit both atheism/missionary thought and  reincarnation/traditional thought. But there are other verses that only fit into traditional thought.

So the verse above does fit into both. And that's fine.

The missionaries ignore (don't mention) the verses that don't fit their paradigm.

You, however, should read Gurbani yourself and see where they may be misleading you.

E.g.,

ਮਾਣਸ ਜਨਮੁ ਪੁੰਨਿ ਕਰਿ ਪਾਇਆ ਬਿਨੁ ਨਾਵੈ ਧ੍ਰਿਗੁ ਧ੍ਰਿਗੁ ਬਿਰਥਾ ਜਾਈ ॥
mānas janam punn kar pāiā bin nāvai dhrig dhrig birathā jāī .
Human birth is obtained through beneficent acts and accursed, accursed it is without the Name it and goes in vain. p493

It makes no sense to say that you gain this birth through punn (charitable acts) and then also say there is no reincarnation. The missionary interpretations are such a stretch.

On 12/18/2022 at 8:59 PM, Guest DumbIdiotBanda said:

Is there a bigger conspiracy behind this?

Yes, there is. The "new missionaries" (the 18 year old kids who enroll in missionary schools) are not in on the conspiracy. They're just trying to learn to be a preacher so they can earn some money (and perhaps go abroad). Many or most of them are well-intentioned, but they are being taught "sugar-coated atheism" as you say.

The bigger conspiracy is the higher-ups. Some of them may be "in on it", others are just pure atheists who are playing a game to destroy Sikhism from within. Their institutions may be getting donations from anti-Sikh institutions because their interests align.

On 12/18/2022 at 8:59 PM, Guest DumbIdiotBanda said:

Don’t care if god really exists or not, sikhi is too beautiful to give up on. 

Good attitude. Even if God doesn't exist (he does), Gurmat is the highest path. Anything else just leads to despondency and depression about a universe that doesn't care about you.

On 3/23/2018 at 12:58 PM, MisterrSingh said:

The sangat has to be worthy of the title, in my opinion. Having a gaggle of - hitherto undiscovered - adulterers, fraudsters, and practitioners of the dark arts (?) sitting in judgement of someone who's a comparative angel compared to the types of individuals I've mentioned, is laughably poor form.

True. But, someone who is in the above categories will not volunteer to be a member of the Panj Piyare. Generally, non-practicing Sikhs know they're doing wrong and do not generally object to those who are living in the Rehit.

Also, generally, Rehitvan Sikhs don't care that non-practicing Sikhs drink alcohol, cut their hair or whatever. It's just that they would object if someone tried to change the fundamentals of Sikhism.

This is kind of weird wording. "Indian religions" will celebrate "Guru Nanak Dev ji's birthday"? 

This wording must have been provided a Gurdwara committee. If it were just the Government, they probably would have just said "Guru Nanak's birthday". 

I mean, do you think a Government would add PBUH after Mohammed?

So, given as the wording was probably provided by a Sikh, why would they say "Indian religions"?

I fully realize many non-Sikhs are shardaloos of Guru ji. But not the entire religions themselves.

On 10/26/2017 at 1:36 AM, Singh2017 said:

VJKK VJKF

You can carry what you like (Kirpan) where you like in India to England and in India and in England. If you get arrested you can pull the Criminal Act 1988 Section 139 and 139A out where it says you can allow a knife to be carried on a person if it is a "religious artefact". They can't stop you - in the Damdami Taksal (correct me if I'm wrong) their rehat says they shouldn't have a sword less than 3ft so what would they do if they came here? We're in kaljug but it's all good for where we are right now. Hope that helps Ji.

Vaheguru Ji.

Oh, so you're saying that the UK Govt website quoted above does not reflect the actual law?

6 hours ago, Singh1989 said:

According to you whas the best way of giving of desvand? 

The first lesson regarding charity that a Sikh must learn is from the first Bani, Jap ji:

ਤੀਰਥੁ ਤਪੁ ਦਇਆ ਦਤੁ ਦਾਨੁ ॥
ਜੇ ਕੋ ਪਾਵੈ ਤਿਲ ਕਾ ਮਾਨੁ ॥

ਸੁਣਿਆ ਮੰਨਿਆ ਮਨਿ ਕੀਤਾ ਭਾਉ ॥
ਅੰਤਰਗਤਿ ਤੀਰਥਿ ਮਲਿ ਨਾਉ ॥

Pilgrimage, penance, compassion and charity,
bring only a sesame (tiny amount) of honour (merit), if any.

Whoever heartily hears, believes and loves in his mind,
obtains salvation by thoroughly bathing in the shrine within himself.
 

So, the first thing to know about charity is that no charity is above having love for God in your heart via Gurbani.
Charity is useless without Gurbani.

Therefore you need to sing Gurbani every day with love. Once you do that, you can give donations.

If you're asking about specific charities, I would recommend asking family in Punjab and giving money to specific individuals (such as a poor Sikh whose ceiling fell in due to rain).

I would recommend giving to Sikhs, not to United Way and other general charities. Those get plenty of money from Western governments and corporations, meanwhile some of our people are starving or in debt.

On 1/31/2020 at 3:40 PM, Akalifauj said:

I said simran on Vaheguru and you changed my word, simran alone, to fit your agenda.  Please provide Gurbani that says rehat is the key.  You made a claim and it needs to be supported.  

Gurbani states that a Sikh must follow Guru's command, not just chant:

ਸੇਵਕ ਸਿਖ ਪੂਜਣ ਸਭਿ ਆਵਹਿ ਸਭਿ ਗਾਵਹਿ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਊਤਮ ਬਾਨੀ ॥
ਗਾਵਿਆ ਸੁਣਿਆ ਤਿਨ ਕਾ ਹਰਿ ਥਾਇ ਪਾਵੈ ਜਿਨ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਆਗਿਆ ਸਤਿ ਸਤਿ ਕਰਿ ਮਾਨੀ ॥੧॥

All the Sikhs and servant come to worship Thee, O Lord, and all of them sing the Lord God's sublime Gurbani.
God approves the singing and hearing of those who accept the True Guru's command as perfectly true.

p669
 

Gurbani also records that Sikhs are to follow even mundane commands of Guru ji, like sitting or standing up:

ਸਾਕਤ ਜਾਇ ਨਿਵਹਿ ਗੁਰ ਆਗੈ ਮਨਿ ਖੋਟੇ ਕੂੜਿ ਕੂੜਿਆਰੇ ॥
ਜਾ ਗੁਰੁ ਕਹੈ ਉਠਹੁ ਮੇਰੇ ਭਾਈ ਬਹਿ ਜਾਹਿ ਘੁਸਰਿ ਬਗੁਲਾਰੇ ॥

The mammon-worshippers go and bow to the Guru but their mind is base and filled with utter falsehood.
When the Guru says 'Rise, My brethren', they cram and sit like cranes.

p312

This should be sufficient to show that the commands of Guru are to be followed.

On 10/31/2022 at 3:48 AM, ipledgeblue said:

there are so many sikhs in Canada, they are still not reducing the incidence of Kuttha such as Popeyes (I heard this from a Canada sikh online, probably on reddit or twitter) and Hortons, and even Kuttha is high in restaurants in Punjab such as Mcdonalds and possibly Subway.

Thanks for mentioning this, bro. A Sikh who eats Halal meat becomes patit (fallen). Under no circumstances should a Sikh eat any type of meat from a restaurant.

I realize the Nihang Maryada of Jhatka, and I am not talking about that.

Even if you know (or you think you know) that a given restaurant's meat isn't Halal, there is still no excuse for eating meat from there because eating a Big Mac burger is not Kshatri Maryada.