MisterrSingh

There was a comment about a girl involved in the production of the film, a photo was found of here wearing skimpy clothes, the presenter asked the producer if he thought that was appropriate, turned out it was the producers daughter and someone had photo-shopped a photo of her a while ago (pretty common in India, they love that kind of stuff over there), upon explaining this the producer was interrupted, they were basically out for blood, if the producer tried to defend himself he wasn't given a chance, I don't mind Paxman style interviews where the person is grilled but it has to be balanced, the gut presenting this didn't have a clue, total lack of professionalism.

Should've been clever. Instead they made the producer look like the victim. Might work behind closed doors, but on TV it's a different kettle of fish. No need to bring the guy's daughter into it, especially if it was later revealed to be a Photoshop job. That must've been cringeworthy television, lol. The thing is some people want those who uphold certain rules, maryada, etc, to appear as zealots, and this kind of behaviour plays right into their hands. Respecting tradition and a certain way of doing things is not zealotry (as long as it doesn't hurt or harm anyone else). Like I said, they should've been smarter. I'm sure they thought they did a stellar job, lol.

There was a discussion about this film on one of the Sikh faith channels here in the UK the other evening, i was absolutely disgusted at how the presenter and his two guests berated and be-littled the producer of this film who was being interviewed by them, whether you agree or disagree with this film you should have a level of respect and decorum especially if your on tv, these guys had none of it, deplorable behaviour, they had a chance to question Harinder Sikka and put their viewpoint across but all they did was come across as fools in my opinion.

What kind of things were they saying?

A marriage formed in the mutual love of god is the highest.

That's the theory, Singh Ji, but in practice marriages are so far removed from Godliness it's quite chilling. The "OMG it's my big day!" brigade go through the religious motions, making a mockery of everything that should be vital to married life. But anyway that's off topic.

Does anyone have any theories as to why this might be?

Why the UK, what is so special about the place?

Is it somethig to do with Sikh faith schools maybe?

No, nothing to do with faith schools, not in my opinion at least. My own theory - therefore with little scientific evidence - is there's something about Sikhi as well as the positive, honourable aspects of Punjabi culture that is congruent with the English (or British if you like) mentality of stoicsm and "let's just get on with it with the minimum of fuss." This down to earth way of approaching life is a natural fit for many Sikhs with their head screwed on right IMO.

None of us exist in a vacuum, and we must, surely, pick up certain traits of our surroundings knowingly or not. I can't comment definitively on North American Sikhs as I've never encountered any, but from what ive observed and second-hand accounts of the way their approach to life, they seem to be more concerned with ingratiating themselves with their hosts and becoming good Americans and whatnot, relegating their religious duties to a distant afterthought. Of course there are exceptions, so NA Sikhs don't get too offended at my theory, lol!

Edit: on second thoughts, there's many NA Sikhs who are good citizens and devout Sikhs, so that's probably unfair. What I was trying to say is there's a sizeable group of Sikhs (usually those that don't keep rehat) for whom Sikhi is an albatross around their neck, one of irritation not relevant to their seemingly modern, fast-moving lives as opposed to a source of goodness and inspiration.

There is a growing problem in the uk, despite what some will argue, amongst those from what you would term as traditionally Sikh families, I.e. non-practising couples in their 20s and 30s raising families. I have to rush off so I can't go into it as fully as I like, but this issue is related to class status, wealth, and confused identities. It ties into the points highlighted by Jonny Singh on the previous page.

In the way the closet atheist Punjabis are also the fault of their parents and our Gurdwara committees. The first teacher of any human being are parents. Almost all Punjabi Sikh parents are only interested in the worldly success of their children. They are not interested in imparting Sikhi or even the Punjabi language to their children as dutiful Sikh parents should be doing. Sure their children might gain worldly success, but they have lost their culture and religion. Many times such children are made to adopt the western culture mixed with the Bhangra culture which in reality is kunjar culture. The result is, those children grow up with out any sense of Sharam o Haya and put khay on the heads of their parents when they go out drinking and sleeping around with abdul or omar

Likewise the Gurdwara committees who have untold amounts of money in their bank accounts do not use it as they should be doing. A Gurdwara is not just a building where rituals happen. It should be a place where spiritual seekers should go to get knowledge on matters of dharam and deep spirituality.

Yep, can't get much clearer and truthful than the above. Spot on.

There are exceptions though, those grey areas, where you get an individual who needs a helping hand onto the "path" but there's just nobody there to give it in a way that's beneficial to the person and him (or her) alone. There's always some caveat, some condition attached, but that's humanity for you, hehe. Only Waheguru is the source of unconditional support and love, but nobody wants to hear that.

I will add one final thing: The mainstream Sikh community are failing those of us on the fringes. There are untold numbers of poor, deprived Sikhs who've fallen on hard times for various reasons, and the high and mighty amongst us pretend as if such Sikhs don't exist. This will come and bite us in the future, make no mistake. Our Guru is not party to the wealthy and the well to do just because they have the loudest voice or are most prominent. The Bhai Lalo / Guru Nanak Dev Ji incident fills me with joy that our Guru can't be bought.

There is no ethnic cleansing of sikhs or mass conversions to other religions here in uk. If anything, its sikhs becomin closet panjabi atheists thats caused sikhs to not be very religious. Sikhs convertin 2 other religions in uk, was a lil problem in past 2 decades, but that is changin i reckon, with much more ENGLISH parchar goin on, new groups like 'basics of sikhi' n 'sikh 2 inspire' now on the surface too. More ppl kno of grooming, 'kaur to khan' sullahh schemes etc. Only sikhs who seem to want to turn away from our dharam, is usually the ravidasi/chamars, who seem to think becomin christians will change their fortune. My only worry is of the panjabi atheists, who keep callin actual sikhs 'extremists' for tryin to uphold actual sikh values, and eliminate some of the dumb panjabi culture. Crap like 'no beef, rakhri, no meat on tue/thu' etc.

Closet atheist Punjabi's are the worst, lol. Distort Sikhi for their own ends because they can't be bothered to follow the rules, and when someone objects, he or she is an extremist!

You have to say that, in a funny way, even an atheist has more integrity than these people. At least they're honest about their convictions (even if we do disagree with them) and firm on their stance. These atheist Punjabi's have nothing but disdain for Sikhi, but turn up to Gurdwaras on special occasions because they aren't strong enough to walk away.

Hanji paji I understand what u are saying, that's why I deleted the high avastha Gurmukh post. But I'm not to judge I can only use th bit of logical sense and be protected from wrong path with Gurujis grace.

I've just seen another very young pracharak video too, so I won't really comment on this topic. Suppose it will come down to ones own experience. Hanji may Waheguru protect the little one, and keep him at their charn.

I guess I should ease up on the negativity, lol. I believe in Waheguru, and through Him anything is possible. If this child will help people in any way then that's great.

I've got nothing personal against the child. I hope he makes me eat my words; I would love that. What's easy to forget is that many embark upon this path with noble intentions, with a genuine love and affection for God, but the people they meet along the way are not cut from a similar cloth; some of these people are family members. It takes an incredibly strong person to remain steadfast in the face of temptation and clamouring voices to remain on the path. Good luck to the little Baba. May Waheguru spare him from vultures and devils.

You have ur opnion and others have theirs. It's not a sin either to compliment a young child who is praising God. I don't see nobody worshipping him as God from the posts, just compliments. I don't know his history or situation, all I saw is a young child who is praising God. Any person that praises God has my respect as long as it's not misleading. Thankuji. But Hanji u do have a point missedAsingh as long there is no diversion from the right path, and for own benefit. I guess only time will tell.

But it won't end there, will it, Sister? We've seen it time and time again, so much so that I wonder whether we are actually capable of learning from the past. I hope you're right, I honestly do, but experience tells me situations like these are based on thing and one thing only: money.

I'll tell you how it'll go: the youngster will gradually build up a profile amongst sangat in Punjab and wherever there's a demand for his parchaar in India. There'll be diwaans, smaagams, etc, headlined by this individual. Eventually, the real money spinner will come knocking; the overseas diwaan. Then you'll have the UK, US, and Canadian sangats climbing over each other to get a piece of this prodigious talent. The money will start pouring in; he'll be shepherded from airports to Guru ghars to the home of wealthy Gursikhs in fantastically expensive vehicles like a rock star on tour.

He'll open a production line where he'll demand people take Amrit (which is of course not a problem), but nary will there be a mention of introspection, self-improvement, studying scriptures, tolerance, understanding, and friendship. Just churn out the Singh's and Singhnis; job done!

His enablers and chele (and there'll be many) will weave legends about his growing shakti, and some will most likely begin to whisper he's an incarnation of a famous Sikh personality from yesteryear. And the myth will continue to be fed by the gullibility and foolishness of us all.

Who knew Sikhs would swap the idols of clay or stone for idols of flesh and blood? And it hasn't even 500 years since the creation of the Khalsa.

I find it slightly strange that because another Sikh does not like me for my background or my social status therefore I must convert to another faith in order to feel accepted.

If every other Sikh chooses to hate my guts or wants to treat me differently, what does it have to do with the love for my Guruji.

Funny enough I was listening to the weird and wacky guy that is Deepak Chopra and he made a book called Seven Rules for Spiritual Success, he kind of mentions that in the human condition that there is need for acceptance and that it was built on attachment, fear and ego and by letting go of these things we do not care if others judge us (or something like that).

It does sound very similar to the five vices of moh, lobh, ahankar, krodh and kaam.

Ha! Spot on! That's exactly the type of pathological need for approval and a lack of faith that can be extended to people simpering around in the footsteps of men who say they are gateways to God. In both cases it shows a complete lack of belief in our Guru. People dress it up as many things, but fundamentally what we're admitting to when we partake in such nonsense is, "Guru Sahib isn't enough. I need more." That's what it boils down to.

The first rule of Pesh is you do not talk about Pesh. The second rule of Pesh is you DO NOT talk about Pesh!

Not true.

Logic does not always seem to work logically - there are certain rules.

I wouldn't be surprised if that were the case. There's so many things we fail to understand, and to think we have all the answers to everything is ego on our part. Best to have an open mind on such matters.

Fyi

Killing a person (KP) = 960,000,000 paap

Killing own father (KF) = 10,000 x KP

Killing own mother (KM) = 50,000 x KF

Leaving Guru (Bemukh) = no limit of paap

Wow, these things can be measured empirically? Where are these numbers from, Singh Ji?

I find that kind of silly. Why would any Sikh be concerned in stuff like this? How does it effect Mukti? Who cares about being rich when everything is maya.

You'd be surprised at how "unsilly" many of our fellow co-religionists find the subject of wealth and riches to be!

Wat i wanna know is, when it comes to brit-asian actors, WHY WHY WHY, do they always use same ol saggy actors in the roles? Nina wadia, nitin ganatra, meera syal etc. For gods sakes, there must b some new talent out there.

Mostly because they're part of the "establishment" (as any brown person can be i guess) and probably because of being recognisable. Getting a budget together for a film starring a complete unknown is very tough; not that having the guys you mentioned means money being thrown at the project, lol. The best chance Sikhs have of having any semblance of creative control on a project is to go the independent route.

So, you wealthy Sikhs out there, instead of throwing money at your ungrateful, lazy children's weddings and holidays you might want to invest in an up and coming talented Sikh writer and director. You want a film to have positive word of mouth and be shown at indie festivals like Tribeca, etc. Unfortunately, films showing one Singh beating up 50 goonde in order to protect a vulnerable female simply won't cut the mustard anymore, not in a serious way at least.

Unless the writer is Gursikh or sympathetic to portraying a minority group such as ours in a positive light, then he or she is under no obligation to make us look good. On the other hand some of it may be downright mischief to create an uproar, and hey presto, free publicity.

Jesus cried on cross and questioned 'God' while our 5th Guru smiled on tati tavi and accepted it as His Will.

We need to up the aggressive parchar where we counter Christian missionaries, Islamic Dawah people and the Hindutva Sanatanis. Once we get on the offensive and start comparing our Nirmal Panth with their flawed ways, they will run away with their tails between their legs.

Equally, you don't want to start playing, "My spiritual leader was tougher than your spiritual leader." I'll be honest, that kind of points-scoring turns away people who are spiritually inclined; they see such tactics as shallow and indicative of someone who doesn't understand the nature of God and spirituality. Leave that to the fanboys and the zealots. Yes, don't play it down and shuffle it to the background, but equally don't hinge Sikhi on facts like those alone. The best example of portraying Sikhi as an example is by being a great Sikh in our daily lives. Nobody can argue with that. We only have to look at our Gurdwara stages to see that many who grace that platform talk a good game and get sangat riled up in religious fervour, but when it comes to the day-to-day stuff even they are found lacking. "Practice what you preach."

Yes, he took the financial bait. Therefore, it could be concluded that caste was not the reason but it was due to poverty.

If institutions such as SGPC cannot be bothered then changes need to be made.

I don't know the system of how they work these things in India, but is it the SGPC who pay granthis for their duties or is it down to the individual village Gurdwara to pay his wages? Are even the smallest village or city Gurdwaras under SGPC control?

Question

If caste based Gurdwaras are the problem, how come this epidemic is not as prevalent in the West where you have " caste" based Gurdwaras?

I'm guessing there was a financial incentive for the granthi to convert. He may have been struggling to put food on the table for his family, etc. In the West, whilst not all Sikhs are living a comfortable middle class existence, there's less of a basic compunction to go to such resorts to feed and home one's family. This is just conjecture on my part though.

There's a fine line between satkaar for Sikh traditions and making those with disabilities feel like a nuisance or something to be kept hidden away, out of sight. We can be incredibly insensitive and uncaring at times even if the intention wasn't there. Not sure if making a song and dance about it was the right way to go about it though; unnecessary Sikh bashing will inevitably begin.

Of course i should keep my mouth shut. Thats what makes this thread a bit of a paradox. It assumes all of we Sikhs are from the same culture, mannerisms and ways. The truth is that we are not. Jattian, by their very nature are not at peace with themselves unless they have a good fight and argument. Its part of their dna. We all know they rule the roost in the household. The men have to keep their mouth shut and obey for it is not possible to win an argument and fight against a jatti.

...based on your experiences and things you've heard from people you know. Not a universal truth. Thank God. Sounds like a bleak existence.

It seems Sikhs aren't the only faith that has people trying to take advantage of the misinformed and gullible.

If you're of a certain age the added sound effects will crack you up.

https://youtu.be/LAwAAQRjB5s

@coolwater - Going on from your post above, Sikh men have to set an example. We have to be whiter than white, no pun intended. Obviously don't run yourself ragged, but we must speak, behave, and interact with integrity, assurance, and wisdom in every walk of life. We can't dictate to others and throw our weight around if we ourselves are incapable of introspection and functioning on a level that portays the faith we follow in the best possible light. Unfortunately, and this is controversial, but our culture, and dare I say the way our religion has been interpreted and disseminated to the masses in this relatively modern age, shuns original thought and critical thinking. We are no better than sheep. And no man worth is salt should ever be a sheep. But anyway, hehe.

When white English and American men still in their youth (i.e. not old men, lol) begin to criticise and look down upon other males for frequenting nightclubs, casual fornication with many partners, the consumption of intoxicants, etc, then you know change is afoot. Then you look at our lot who are arguing the opposite, lmao! People are beginning to open their eyes; people who I assumed never would, and I tell you it's pretty sweet.