SikhiInspire

HSingh8963 and Jonny101 veerjio, I will be providing the counter view in a day or two as I have some work piled up which requires immediate attention, so won't be active on forum for a day or two. Veerji where, Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj elevated the status of women (who was treated as slave on the globe for centuries) to a king maker, and you refer to them as "bickering women". I don't mind any personal attack, but atleast have some SHARAM veerji, you claim to be a sikh of guru granth sahb ji maharaj on one hand, and you carry this type stereotype for women. Aside, Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj was the first one in 5000 years (since humans started living in civilization) to publicly voice support such a strong support for womenhood and straigtaway elevating them to title of "King maker" who is bigger than king itself. He brought women to a level greater than any man. Wah guru wah guru!!, I go balehaar to Maharaj. Our mothers, sisters are jananis, Bebe Nanaki, Mata Gujri, all were jananis. I felt ashamed reading your post. And it is not a personal attack, it is a post dedicated to the so called "men of masculinity" and so called "sikhs", who still treat women lowly. If you want to call me Janani in all the posts, please go ahead veerji. I don't mind being counted in category of king makers (even when i am not worthy of it), guru sahb has accorded them with highest of the highest status.

I certainly believe it is a sorry day for Sikhs of the day, a shameful one indeed, who believe in Hindu mythological characters. You guys have proved that you have never attended any university, let alone get some quality education if you are still believing in demons and devils. Also, if that would have been the case you must have read about some basic rules to debating. This little story would make a lot of sense: "Once a wise man said in sangat that Bhalwaans have no brains as they spend all their energy on eating and on body building. The bhalwaans rounded him up and beat him badly. Then they asked him- How dare you call us brainless?. All he said was- Do I need to say anything more now?" (Hopefully the wise ones would get this, others you need to reappear on this earth and spend some time reading tolstoy, dostoevsky, dumas, gamsatov and enhance you brain power). For Jhonny101, Akalifauj, hsingh8963 veerjio, this would make sense too: I could have provided gurbani references to again prove sant can be only used for guru sahb and akal purakh, not any mortal, no exception. Prahlaad is a myth. Guru Sahb have used the "free form excerpting" to tell the very prevalent mythological story to explain sikhs about having faith in akal purakh. Its other thing, a very few have actually understood what guru sahb meant. Most are lakeer de fakeer. But I can spend my 10 mins which I would have spent convincing the already-convinced-by-some-sant/bhramgyani-sikhs in a better manner. Here are a few suggestions: 1. Spend some time to learn about universe. Forget about the picture you have for waheguru which ends at earth. Go beyond it, there is a lot of space after that. Maybe you' ll get some gyan there. 2. Start reading some intellectuals and then come to gurbani, go step by step, don't listen to anpadh babe, sant, bhramgyani. Understand gurbani yourself. Expand you mind for it to fit you. I suggested some authors above. 3. Come out of bahman trap. Its all myth. They themselves say it and its so stupid that sikhs actually believe it to be a true historical event. When you brain expands to visualize the universe (which is almost 91 billion light years-do you know how big this number is?), then you might be able to understand sikhi. 4. Please don't surprise me by saying that if guru maharaj has referred to fish climbing tree, you believe that to be true??? i am not saying gurbani is wrong, but that it mentions some things for entirely different meaning. If you believe, then earth is doomed, homo sapiens are actually brainless.

Veerjio, before I provide counter evidence, I would like to know if you guys believe Prahlaad actually existed as in a real person or Guru Sahb has mentioned his popular story (in the indian subcontinent) just to guide the Sikhs? Note: Prahlaad is a mythological character in Bhagvat Puran.

Claimed historian? Thats your definition of open minded? LOL Posting his resume here. Atleast read this with "open mind" veerji. http://www.globalsikhstudies.net/pdf/biodata/Gurdarshan%20Singh%20Dhillon..PDF Veerji can you please enligten lost and poor souls like me with some "educated" people you follow and listen to (any kathavachak, so called bhramgyani or so)? I would definitely advice you enrol in some university, get a first class degree, then go for masters, then a Phd. Maybe it will be helpful to you in understanding something called "education" then. I don't know if you do it out of sheer ignorance of sikhi or some motive but you put everybody who disagrees with your thinking, into "Kala Afghana" basket. Please watch "The matrix" and eat a blue pill veerji. Maybe you were wrong all these years. It maybe time to enter Morpheus's world. lol Maybe its time someone needs to brush up their history knowledge. Can you point the inaccuracies? And how you conclude they are inaccurate? On one side you say you are not a scholar, but it takes a scholar to rebut another phd scholar (dr dhillon in this case). So either you just threw a free volley here, or you are actually quite learned in the subject. And please cite your sources too which you used to label him inaccurate. Who do you get impressed with? Stephen hawkins or Neil deGrasse tyson must be the benchmark personalities to impress you. And again please provide us with atleast ONE name of someone who talks substance. Enlighten us veerji. For open minded and rational people, here are some more videos of Dr. Dhillon:

Veerji, you are very well aware of the things which make Sikhi so unique and beautiful. Guru Sahb used vernacular (mother tongue of majority) instead of some language which needs to be specially learnt. Provided one knows the vyakaran (I learnt it from the very famous book on subject "Gurbani Veyakaran"), gurbani arth can be easily done by anyone. That is what makes Sikhi awesome, so simple yet so meaningful. As for your question, yes I do arth of Gurbani myself. When I encounter some difficult word I refer to some dictionary. Punjabi is my mother tongue, I have been reading,speaking, listening it for all these years. You can also do so easily, its not at all hard. Just understand the rules of gurbani grammer (veyakaran) once, its smooth ride ahead as guru sahb has made it that way :-) Note: I am no scholar. Anybody can do arth themselves, provided veyakaran is followed correctly and pauses are used at right places. I mention the teeka because not everyone is approaching Sikhi this way. Some like to read teeka first and then appreciate gurbani. Personal choice.

Veerji, Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj's bani is very clear on the word Sant. A sikh who has properly understood Guru Ji would not listen to even the biggest of the biggest scholars of Sikhi when Gurbani is itself very straightforward of the matter- who can be called sant. Guru Sahb is perfect, guru sahb is complete. It seems like some section of panth is adamant about using Sant word with mortals. Jadon kise ne nishchay hi kar leya hai na sunan da, behas da ki fayda.

Yes all way for Sikhi. I brought that up because an august member questioned "titles". So had to give some explanation. Guru Sahb has not used any title for anyone. Titles don't work in Sikhi. Respect is given by Bhai/Baba. Revisit the shabad again. Its on Ank 1133. Prahalaad is never mentioned as Sant by Guru Sahb. Veerji please enlighten me who has knowledge of Gurbani. I would start listening to their katha. But please don't mention name of anyone who makes Sikhi look like a fairy land. That parcharak should be talking practicality and rationally. Sikhi deeply involves sociological principles (Asa Di Vaar), so that parcharak should be talking socially not out-of-world. That person should be talking within the realms of laws of gravity, laws of motion and basic laws of universe which can't be broken by anyone, no tree-climbing-fishes please. If there is someone like that, please let us know. We are here to learn on this forum. Veerji it would be disrespecting Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj by saying nothing is wrong with jyot. Please read the arth of Aarti sometime.. May Guru Sahb give the panth guidance and show us the right path.

I am surprised at the lengths and breadths some people go to associate "Sant" word with mortals Veerji. I bow down in front of these souls who would do anything to prove their point right even it involves using gurbani's arth in a distorted fashion. Ank 1133 is where the shabad is, which you are talking about. Before making this claim, you should have atleast given a moment to read over its meaning in "Guru Granth Darpan". Sant has NOT been used directly for Prahalaad. Read over shabad carefully veerji. Don't throw free volleys. First read the book, do some homework and hardwork on it. Then talk with some hard fact as to what "hole" you see Veerji. Follow these steps: 1. Read my point above. 2. Read the shabad again and its arth from Guru Granth Darpan. Think for a second, are you sure what you are saying can be possible? Guru Sahb would make an expection for Prahlad? 3. Finding the book (which you felt had some "holes and didn't make sense"- metaphorically), requires some advanced search techniques like boolean symbols and search operators (https://support.google.com/websearch/answer/2466433?hl=en). Its a rare book. I would surely ask for your help if I am unable to search anything. :-) Again repeating thing I said earlier. Is it a crime to say my guru is Guru Granth Sahb Ji Maharaj? I never mentioned Dasam Bani in any of my posts. Have some people on this forum sworn that they have to force someone to say something about Dasam Bani? Such a dictatorship. I feel majority of panth has adopted the behaviour of pre-copernicus era Christianity.

Being an MD just gives prefix of Dr. not Prof. MD is a professional designation. The designation of Professor is not awarded anywhere in the world, it is a post/position which one holds when teaching in an post secondary academic institute. The meaning of the word wouldn't change even 1000 years down to road. The root meaning stays no matter how much the wording is distorted. Please refer to some linguistic Ted-talk to learn more about linguism. If you teach in some academic institute you may use the prefix. It is not a professional designation like CFA, Dr., Er., CMA, etc. but a common word in the 'world of academia'. Is every corner of London an academic institute? I haven't been there so not sure. If it is a case then they may call themselves. Linguism allows them. Agreed. I am not defending anybody here. But these sants etc. have done more damage and hijacked sikhi more. They have money power and money rules in today's world (a realistic expression). I am not sure about Ghagga, but Dhunda is only so hated because of his approach against babas and taksalis. He speaks substance. His view on Dasam Granth is other matter. As far as Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj is concerned he has done a commendable job in explaining people what guru sahb is saying. Different matter some people can't digest the simplicity of gurbani. The only sant is akal purakh and guru sahb. No other mortal can be called with that prefix. Then Bhai Mati Das should be Sant Mati Das. He is also an example of real Sant who didn't give up guru's philosophy. NOTE: I hold highest respect for Baba Jarnail Singh Ji, Real Singh Soorma of the 20th century.

Good. Veerji over-assumption can lead to catastrophes. So always be wary of what you assume without being clear of what the other person is talking about. Don't jump guns, that is the practice of ignorant people who don't know how to sit down and talk like enlightened intellectuals. That is rule#1 in healthy discussions (which rarely take place). Otherwise its called an 'ignorant argument'.

I think you are educated enough that you are using a computer, which means you can read and speak English. Can you please point out one word I have said about if I believe in Dasam Granth or not? Did I even refer to Dasam Granth? Your whole base of discussion revolves around if someone believes in Dasam Granth or not. Even if the matter of discussion is "Is String Theory theoretically right?", you would definitely just say "What do you think about Dasam Granth?". Please read some book which explains how to debate and discuss. I can suggest you some if you want. Why do you start another topic without rebutting/replying/quoting to what I said about the word 'Sant'. Your way is more like a zig-zagged approach. If someone gives some point, you put forward completely different point and so on. Topic is "Maun Vrat" and you drag it to Dasam Granth debate. Is that your home ground or something? Veerji please back your claims instead of free volleying. If you claim I am against Dasam Granth, prove it, otherwise take your words back.

Lets take a step back and ponder as to how the word Sant became a prefix in Sikhi. The word "saint" originated in Christianity. After the fall of Sikh Raj, the term got associated with people in Sikhi. You won't find anybody with that title before that time. Can anybody have more 'kamai' (as you refer it to) than Bhai Mardana who spent his entire life in shadow of dhan guru nanak dev ji maharaj? Why not Sant Mardana? Bhai Gurdas. Bhai Mani Singh. Bhai Taru Singh. Bhai Dayala. Bhai Sati Das. Bhai Mati Das. Bhai Bachittar Singh. The list is endless. Guru Sahb was present in human form at that time, he could have bestowed any such title to the singhs mentioned above. But there is no place of such titles in Sikhi as there can be only one Sant that is Akal purakh and guru sahb himself. Note: Nobody is questioning the contribution of Baba/Bhai Jarnail Singh here to Sikh Panth. His name is in the same list of great singh soorme. Coming back to the chronology of events, Britishers were first to introduce sainthood titles in Sikhi. It was done to separate sikhs from the gyan and free spirit sikhs got from guru granth sahb ji. For reference please read the entire book (I mean every page and word) "Papers relating to Punjab 1847-49, Presented to Both Houses of Parliament by Command of her majesty, may 1849", to understand the hostility of british raj towards sikh philosophy. As to 'sant' and 'bhramgyani' shabad in sukhmani sahb, it has come only for Akal Purakh and Guru Sahb. Nobody is allowed to take those titles. If you walk into a university and find 100s of chancellors, who would you follow? There can only be 1 of them, just 1. The only voice which carries "weight" in sikhi is that of Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

A person with some intellectual knowledge and who has understood sikhi would listen to NOBODY/NO MORTAL but Guru, Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji as nothing can match guru sahib. Is anybody or anything bigger than guru ji? If any literature contradicts guru granth sahb ji then it is wrong because from guru nanak dev ji to guru gobind singh ji, it is 1 jot and same gyan, a complete gyan doesn't contradict itself. The kasvati is guru granth sahib ji, the sampooran guru.

Veerji how qualified are you to call someone you don't personally know a 'heretic'? Let me enlighten you with what the word professor means. It is a Latin origin word which originated in around 1350. In Latin prōfessor is one who has taken the vows of a religious order. It also refers to (in Latin) a public lecturer. So the point that he lies about his qualifications falls flat on floor. He holds a diploma from a government registered college. Which college gives title of bhramgyani, 108, sant, etc.? lol What has he misguided sangat on? Getting intoxicated with bhang and calling oneself guru-di-fauj, thats an actual lie. The so called brhamgyanis,sants-who are completely uneducated and 5th grade passouts- who leave no stone unturned to lecture about non-sensical sakhis which carry no practical meaning. The so called deras (run by uneducated class) who have not done anything for panth but take it a sorry state of affairs. This is real heresy and lie. And this maun vrat. This is misguiding. What would maun vrat serve a purpose if no one can listen to gurbani? Its a complete pakhand started by actual heretics. And since when do sikhs start using the Lutheranism era terminology to dissuade anyone against pakhand. Back then, anybody who challenged the pakhand in church was declared heretic. Martin Luther was proved right later. Please read his 95 theses or take some university level scientific history course. Galileo was convicted of heresy when he questioned the geocentric model of universe as explained by Bible. Church officials became more powerful than Bible and people shifted away from interpretation of Bible. Whatever church wished they did. Same thing is happening today. These pakhandis, sants, bhramgyanis, sadhs, etc. have hijacked Sikhi. And people are being convicted to heresy as you just pronounced your verdict. Is it a dictatorship that if one doesn't believe in the imposed belief one is a liar? Alas, human intelligence is way overstated.

Use the rational side of your mind for just 1 second here. You blabber whole day as to how some people have created disunity in the panth. Didn't guru sahb creat a disunity here? Think for a second, why would guru sahb create a separate maryada. This would be straightforward disuniting Sikhs as one would say do 'this' other would say 'that'. Guru sahb is sampooran (complete, perfect), he can never do such a thing. Please don't put the enlightened gyan of 11 jots of guru nanak dev ji in a question with what suits you or your preferences.

By creating this list, are you doing any good to the panth or uniting it? Do you call this awareness? Human intelligence is absolutely overrated. Any historical proof that there was actually a maryada like that?

Copying pasting an excerpt about Faridkot Teeka-'Faridkot Wala Teeka is classical exegesis of Sri Guru Granth Sahib in ‘Braj Bhasha’ by a team of scholars of Nirmala Sect'. It has Nirmala (who distorted Sikhi to maximum) influence, so be wary of what you read in there. Prof Sahib Singh's Guru Granth Darpan in line with Gurmat philosophy. And we was an educated professional researcher. Give his teeka a preference.

Please read,read,research,research,read.... before making any claim. Also, why divert from the nub? The matter here is problem of RSS, brahmanwaad, pakhand which is being inserted into sikhi slowly and steadily. Even if Nandgarh is biggest missionary in the entire cosmos, the matter still stands. Please watch the videos ahead. Note: I am not in favour of or against anybody. The only thing that has mattered to me is the enlightening gyan of Guru Granth Sahib Ji which is under constant attack by pakhandis like this.

Haven't seen a good orator like him in a while who speaks substance.

Have you seen the the movie 'The matrix'? Maybe you never took the red pill which Neo chose. Gurdarshan Singh has been supporting and visiting Bapu Surat Singh Khalsa since the early days of Bapu ji's hunger strike. Atleast he is doing something. If possible can you please give reference of some 'well wishers of sikh panth' who have well-wished and 'united the panth' recently? General comment- I don't understand this empirical relationship in sikh community of the day. Educated people are ridiculed while completely uneducated people are given big self-made titles like bhramgyani,sant,etc. and followed blindly. Education is so underrated in sikhi today. Anpadhta is highly lauded. Well, there is no shortage of padhe like anpadh too.

Please don't post pictures like this which don't have any historical backing/proof. Anybody can paint any picture tomorrow and say guru sahib did this or that but the kasvati (benchmark) is gyan of sri guru granth sahib ji. Any rational minded person who has just read and understood (the meanings) of japji sahb would agree that guru sahb can't perform any fake ritual like this which make no sense at all. What we lack today is critical ability to percieve sikhi as it is, instead mixing it with brahmanical concepts. Sikhi is a revolution, based on logic and practicality this explaining this complex universe (or multiverse) in the most simplistic form. If it is not a big deal it would become in some 100 years or so when sikhs would be bringing in talliyan (bells) in gurdwara too. Sikhi has to be kept intact in accordance to the message of guru granth sahb ji-no place of rituals like this whatsoever. Guru sahb spent their whole life breaking this ritualistic thought process of people, but its sad to see we haven't changed. Human intelligence is quite overrated. Nobody is saying to stop eating coconuts, but not to bring them in to distort the enlightening sikh philosophy. Coconuts are pavitr?? Bhenji are you still stuck in the question of what is pavitr/apavitr (pure/impure). Gurbani says akal purakh vibrates through every atom. Tell me what is not pavitr? When everything, every atom (electron, quarks, strings.....) is nothing but waheguru what would you call impure? Someone would now say then what is the problem with coconut then. So the problem is-> Guru Sahb wanted people to rid themselves of fear created by brahman about days/teeraths/seasons, etc. That is what real freedom is. But when someone tries to bring those pakhands and corrupt sikhi, it goes against guru sahb's message.

The hukamnama was released way back in 2005. Rss started spreading its roots aggressively after 2007 when our so called "panth-ratan" came in power in punjab, the RSS being the ideological parent of punjab government coalition partner-BJP. I am not favouring any political party here, but just clarifying with the timeline of events which correlate with its attack on sikhi and its principles. Yes badal appointed nandgarh and as I said earlier in my post already, he should have spoken out while in office. Anyways, I have personally visited and toured the villages near damdama sahib (where he was jathedar) and people speak highly of him in terms of parchaar of brahman-less sikhi he has done in the area. You won't find people going to graves, etc. there, they are very informed about sikhi (I was myself surprised). Note: I didn't conduct any survey in scientific manner. It was basically going though villages and talking to people at saths, etc. And I am not favouring Nandgarh!

Yes thats what it would be called in English, "Breaking coconut ritual", or naaryial todan di prartha (transliterated from Punjabi)

I have read at numerous posts on this forum where people still believe that RSS is just a self-created paranoia by overcautious sikhs. This thought may have been true in 1950s but today its is definitely not. I don't recall who said this - "The most dangerous enemy is the one who in garb of a friend", but this quote is holding so much relevance in today's diaspora. In the pictures below, I was surprised that the Jathedar of Akal Takhat Sahb is standing there and participated in coconut breaking ritual (a ritual of Hinduism) which finds no place in Gurmat philosophy. You won't be surprised to spot the new chairman of the Tahat Hazoor Sahb Board, a RSS man, Tara Singh is standing there too. I am pretty sure someone will definitely reply to this post saying where is it written that coconut breaking is not allowed in Sikhi. To them-> please read Sikh Rehat Maryada (of Akal Takhat Sahb's). Jathedar Nandgarh has also recently come out openly, revealing what happens behind the closed door meetings of the Jathdars of Takhats. The orders come directly from offices of RSS in Nagpur and Chandigarh and Jathedars just have to read over them. Can there be a lower level to which we can fall still? I have attached the news clip too. Note: I also believe he should have said all of this when he was in the office. Anyways, what is important is the crux of story- the negative influence of RSS.

Veerji can you please elaborate what is wrong with what he is saying? "Maun vrat" path sounds more clownish.