Kira

15 hours ago, Jonny101 said:

My points about PP also stand for Suraj Prakash. Like PP, the SP was also written during the era of Maharaja Ranjit Singh. We should not treat PP and SP as if they are Dhur Ki Bani which cannot contain mistakes or errors. Personally I like to read PP and SP but I don't blindly believe everything from those Granths. The opinion of two Sampradahs I can respect but I respectfully disagree because those opinions were based on PP and SP and those two Granths based their opinion on forged letters.

Again these weren't based solely on the Granths, this was from the oral history passed down as well. One of these Sampardayas was completely isolated from the other, yet they both retained the same history. The forged letter argument is completely baseless, firstly Mata Sundri Ji was in Delhi during the sikh campaigns, She was quite literally the only thing keeping them safe from Sikhs. If the Emperor had forged a letter by her and sent it out, Sikhs would have known instantly. Bhai Mani Singh Ji (who was corresponding directly with Mata Ji), Baba Deep Singh Ji, the court poets and a large portion of the court of Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji were all still around. Many of whom were master scribes (having written so many scriptures) and were intimate with the handwriting of the Mehals and Guru Ji himself. They could spot a forgery a mile off and would have alerted Mata Sundri Ji, such an insult would have brought the carnage having in Punjab to Delhi's doorsteps in an instant. What sikh would tolerate such an insult against the Guru Mata? 

Suraj Prakash Granth wasn't based off the letters, firstly that's a totally inaccurate statement as no historian worth their salt would, no collector would as well. Kavi Ji spent 40 years researching and collecting everything, to base an entire life saga and then elaborate an entire historical event would be an insult to any historian.  

Quote

From the same Sampradah, Sant Gurbachan Singh Bhindranwale also had Divine Darshan of Baba Banda Singh Bahadur as a Shaheed Singh along with Baba Deep Singh jee and 3 other respected Shaheed Singhs. If he was a Manmukh(who claimed to be a Guru) how could he be in the ranks of the Shaheed Singhs like Baba Deep Singh Jee? I don't know if you believe in the existence of Shaheed Singhs or how much you have read SP, but SP also mentions an incident where Guru Gobind Singh jee gave Baba Banda Singh Bahadur divine vision of Shaheed Singhs. How can a Manmukh who claims to be a Guru have blessed Darshan of Shaheed Singhs? Only a high caliber Gurmukh can have such divine visions.

Like the Granths exalt and like the oral tradition states, Baba Ji had a relapse but eventually saw the error of his ways. The Singhs that abandoned Guru Ji had a similar issue, yet Guru Ji forgave them because of their sincerity. No ones questioning Baba Ji's Shaheedi, he was a Gursikh in the end but there was a time when he fell off that path, that's why he's a Shaheed and a Gursikh, Just like Bedawa written was never held over the Sikhs who left Guru Ji as he forgave them. You keep saying that work "manmukh" yet no one is calling Baba Ji that. Baba Ji had a relapse which was noted, but he later on changed and reverted back to the right path. Which is the most important part. 

Quote

Besides this, look at the way he became Shaheed. Having his son killed right in front of his eyes yet did not leave Sikhi, was tortured in the most unimaginable ways yet refused to leave Sikhi. Can a Manmukh(who claims to be Guru and all the other Manmukhi things PP and SP claims about him) go through all such tortures and have his son killed right in front of himself and not flinch? I doubt it. These are the clear signs of a Gurmukh Pyara and not just any Gurmukh but a Gurmukh of high spiritual states.

Again No ones questioning Baba Ji's shaheedi or where Baba Ji's loyalty was at the time, we're pointing out that before it Baba Ji fell off that path before that but later saw the error of his ways. Just like the Singhs who abandoned Guru Ji at Anandpur Sahib, its never been held against them and this has never been held against Baba Ji. 

43 minutes ago, Jonny101 said:

I don't have the letters of Mata ji at present. As for letters of Baba Banda Singh Bahadur, I've read them a long time ago from a book I had. I will see if I still have it in my personal library.

Please do, the dates will be really significant. 

Quote

As for Sant ji. They said said that based on Panth Prakash and PP was written during the era of Maharaja Ranjit Singh. Besides that PP is not Gurbani that it cannot contain mistakes and we cannot scrutinize it. For example PP claims Shaheed Bhai Mani Singh was killed due to being cursed and that Shaheed Baba Gurbaksh Singh jee drank Bhang first thing in the morning even before Ishnan and Nitnem(which goes against Nihang maryadha of not eating before Ishnan).

Pant Prakash wasn't the only thing they based it on. Suraj Prakash Granth also notes this, not only that but the oral tradition of 2 Sampradaya also state this. Both of whom have their differences but share the same collective history, a large majority of our own history is based on oral traditions as it is.

Quote

Baba Banda Singh Bahadur was the personal hand picked choice of Guru Gobind Singh ji Maharaj. I have faith in Guru jee's personal choice. He was given Amrit in presence of Guru ji. He was given 5 arrows from the quiver of Guru ji. Only a Gurmukh can be so blessed not a manmukh.

No-one's saying that Baba Ji was a manmukh, no doubt in my mind Baba Ji was a highly Spiritual being who deserves respect. Guru Ji gave Baba Banda Singh Bahadur Ji very precise Hukam which was to avenge the Sahibzade, which Baba Ji did. But he was also told to raze Sirhind which he didn't do. There were plenty of people that were blessed by Guru Ji, but Hukam took them elsewhere. Guru Ji sent Baba Ram Rai Ji to Aurangzeb and we all know how that went, the blame lies in the person who does it not the Guru. The Guru is aware of what is to come, for all we know it could have been part of his play. A test for the Khalsa to overcome.

Quote

The so called letters of Mata ji against Baba Ji are forged. Dr Anurag Singh studied these letters and is of the opinion that they do not match her writing style

can you provide letters that are authenticated to be written by Mata Sundri Ji? 

Quote

The only contemporary sources to refer to him as Guru were the Mughals ones so it can be said to be Mughal propaganda to sow discord in Sikh ranks. We've had similar situation in our own recent times when GOI and their Sikh chumchas claim Sant Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale wanted to become Guru of the Sikhs. But in today's age of technology and knowledge we were better able to counter these claims. But Sikhs 300 years ago did not have the resources as Sikhs today do to counter government propaganda.

Again that's speculation. You have the words of one scholar vs the words of the Mukhi of the institute that specialised in preserving Sikh History. Why would Sant Jarnail Singh Ji slander someone? was he wrong then? 

Quote

Baba Ji wrote many letters and he never once refers to himself as Guru. 

Can you provide those letters please? so we can also cross examine them? the dates on them will be really important as well.

It's interesting because Suraj Prakash Granth even notes that Mata Sundri Ji cursed Baba Banda Singh Bahadur due to his arrogance and insults towards the Khalsa and the panth as a whole (also making remarks that Mata Sundri Ji was working WITH the mughals). The curse that Mata Ji placed on him was so extreme he lost his sanity, his birs, his powers..just about everything. 

But if I recall right Panth Prakash Granth says that Baba Ji was initiated into the Khalsa.

27 minutes ago, Jonny101 said:

I mentioned Brahm Kavach because there are two variants with slight difference. The Buddha Dal one and the Hazur Sahib one. The Buddha Dal one is said to be the correct one. Can you show me Sarbloh Kavach and Ram Kavach.

I was aware of the 2 variations but thank you for bringing it up. Good info for users in general too.

https://www.manglacharan.com/home/the-three-kavach-s-armor

This is the other 2 listed here, Ram Kavach is within Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and Sarbloh Kavach also rests in Sri Sarbloh Granth.

47 minutes ago, Jonny101 said:

 Brahm Kavach as shown in Buddha Dal Gutkas. It is the words of Guru Hargobind Sahib ji Maharaj. It is to be recited every morning 32 times.

I've already listed Brahm Kavach, im aware of its existence. I mean are there any others around? there's 4 so far (Brahm,Ram,Sarbloh and Durga), i was intrigued whether there were more.

4 hours ago, guruvah said:

 

Is there any conclusive evidence of this claim?

There's an entire list of all the Jathedars of Taksal, you can trace this back to Baba Deep Singh Ji and Bhai Mani Singh Ji.

This is Durga Kavach found in Sri Sarbloh Granth Ji. 

Does anyone know if any other bani (Kavach- related) exist? 

Thus far I'm aware of Brahm Kavach, Sarbloh Kavach and Ram Kavach. Are there any other Kavach type bani present in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, Sri Dasam Granth or Sri Sarbloh Granth? 

2 hours ago, GurjantGnostic said:

I was able to read up on the controversy regarding the issue and appreciate the well stated, respectful points made by veer ji @InderjitS in pm. 

Really my krodh aimed at @Akalifauj doesn't have anything to do with women's role in panj pyare. 

The best arguments for allowing it I heard are that it isn't prohibited by Gurbani and men's role at the time were heavily influenced by societal norms of the time. 

The best argument against is that in the years following the creation of the panj pyare, before the death of Guru Gobind Singh Ji, they were not included. 

Shukria. 

I appreciate the education. 

are you actually white? Like I'm curious. Nothing against you if you are, im just curious.

Just now, InderjitS said:

Hanji

*sigh* he does amazing kirtan though.

1 hour ago, InderjitS said:

look what I stumbled upon

http://sikhissues.blogspot.co.uk/2018/

is that the AKJ Kirtan guy? 

4 hours ago, BhForce said:

After reading this, you should be able to understand why:

 

ਹਰਿ ਦਾਸਨ ਸਿਉ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਹੈ ਹਰਿ ਦਾਸਨ ਕੋ ਮਿਤੁ ॥

Har Dhaasan Sio Preeth Hai Har Dhaasan Ko Mith ||

The Lord loves His slaves; the Lord is the friend of His slaves.

ਹਰਿ ਦਾਸਨ ਕੈ ਵਸਿ ਹੈ ਜਿਉ ਜੰਤੀ ਕੈ ਵਸਿ ਜੰਤੁ ॥

Har Dhaasan Kai Vas Hai Jio Janthee Kai Vas Janth ||

The Lord is under the control of His slaves, like the musical instrument under the control of the musician.

ਸੋਰਠਿ ਵਾਰ (ਮਃ ੪) (੨੫) ਸ. (੪) ੧:੨ - ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੬੫੨ ਪੰ. ੫ 
Raag Sorath Guru Ram Das

 

ਜੋ ਹਰਿ ਦਾਸਨ ਕੀ ਉਸਤਤਿ ਹੈ ਸਾ ਹਰਿ ਕੀ ਵਡਿਆਈ ॥

Jo Har Dhaasan Kee Ousathath Hai Saa Har Kee Vaddiaaee ||

The praise of the Lord's slaves is the Glory of the Lord.

ਹਰਿ ਆਪਣੀ ਵਡਿਆਈ ਭਾਵਦੀ ਜਨ ਕਾ ਜੈਕਾਰੁ ਕਰਾਈ ॥

Har Aapanee Vaddiaaee Bhaavadhee Jan Kaa Jaikaar Karaaee ||

The Lord loves His Own Glory, and so His humble servant is celebrated and hailed.

ਸੋ ਹਰਿ ਜਨੁ ਨਾਮੁ ਧਿਆਇਦਾ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਜਨੁ ਇਕ ਸਮਾਨਿ ॥

So Har Jan Naam Dhhiaaeidhaa Har Har Jan Eik Samaan ||

That humble servant of the Lord meditates on the Naam, the Name of the Lord; the Lord, and the Lord's humble servant, are one and the same.

ਸੋਰਠਿ ਵਾਰ (ਮਃ ੪) (੨੫) ਸ. (੪) ੧:੭ - ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੬੫੨ ਪੰ. ੮ 
Raag Sorath Guru Ram Das

Adding to this, Guru Angad Dev Ji used to cure people but tell them to go and do seva for a Pir nearby. The Pir would insist and tell people Guru Sahib was the one curing him but was only sending people his way to hide that.

8 hours ago, garch said:

Nindiya = people in glass houses throwing stones

 

This singh probably does more good then all of us put together. hes obviously no Saint but he's on the right path.

maharaj bless him and the rest of us strength to become a better and stronger singhs then we already are.

so many SJWs on here. The dude's done more than me, I'll give him props for that.  Chalo, I'm sure a-lot of the critics are better people than everyone here. 

13 hours ago, MisterrSingh said:

It seems some Indians see through Ms. Trudeau's act: 

Maybe it's just salty right-wing Indians?

 

russians bro....its the commies.

any source?

On 22/02/2018 at 12:58 AM, S4NGH said:

Cookie parshad?! I am sold.

7 hours ago, N30S1NGH said:

1. From Sargun Perspective- Primordial Satguru (Sat Chit- Eternal all pervading Awareness- Nanak- Pure Awareness/Vahiguru  in previous yugas-immanent its various attributes(out of infinite) into various kala avtars -highest being in previous yugas-Krishna and highest sargun avtar in kalyug- Sargun Satguru nanak. In the japji sahib teeka six types of avtars -ansa, aveshya, kala, nit, namit, poran avtar ram.-14 and 16  being krishan are mentioned along with sarab kala barpoor- satguru nanak being avtar of parbhram.

Gurbani talks about avtar of vahiguroo in each age to propagate and uphold dharma

Jab Jab Hoth Aristh Apara Tab Tab Deh Dharat Avtara. (Sri Dasam Granth)

Jug Jug Satgur Dhare Avtari (Bhai Gurdas Ji)

Sathajug Thai Maaniou Shhaliou Bal Baavan Bhaaeiou ||

In the Golden Age of Sat Yuga, You were pleased to deceive Baal the king, in the form of a dwarf.

thraethai thai maaniou raam raghuvans kehaaeiou ||

In the Silver Age of Traytaa Yuga, You were called Raam of the Raghu dynasty.
dhuaapur kirasan muraar kans kirathaarathh keeou ||

In the Brass Age of Dwaapur Yuga, You were Krishna; You killed Mur the demon and saved Kans.
ougrasain ko raaj abhai bhagatheh jan dheeou ||
You blessed Ugrasain with a kingdom, and You blessed Your humble devotees with fearlessness.
kalijug pramaan naanak gur angadh amar kehaaeiou ||

In the Iron Age, the Dark Age of Kali Yuga, You are known and accepted as Guru Nanak, Guru Angad and Guru Amar Das.
sree guroo raaj abichal attal aadh purakh furamaaeiou ||7||
The sovereign rule of the Great Guru is unchanging and permanent, according the Command of the Primal Lord God. ||7||

2. There are many examples in gurbani. 

ਚਰਨ ਬਧਿਕ ਜਨ ਤੇਊ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਭਏ ॥
चरन बधिक जन तेऊ मुकति भए ॥
Cẖaran baḏẖik jan ṯe▫ū mukaṯ bẖa▫e.
The hunter who shot Krishna in the foot - even he was liberated.

ਹਉ ਬਲਿ ਬਲਿ ਜਿਨ ਰਾਮ ਕਹੇ ॥੧॥
हउ बलि बलि जिन राम कहे ॥१॥
Ha▫o bal bal jin rām kahe. ||1||
I am a sacrifice, a sacrifice to those who chant the Lord's Name. ||1||

ਨਿਰਾਹਾਰੀ ਨਿਰਵੈਰੁ ਸਮਾਇਆ ॥
निराहारी निरवैरु समाइआ ॥
He is beyond need of any sustenance, free of hate and all-pervading.

ਧਾਰਿ ਖੇਲੁ ਚਤੁਰਭੁਜੁ ਕਹਾਇਆ ॥
धारि खेलु चतुरभुजु कहाइआ ॥
He has staged His play; He is called the four-armed Lord.

ਸਾਵਲ ਸੁੰਦਰ ਰੂਪ ਬਣਾਵਹਿ ਬੇਣੁ ਸੁਨਤ ਸਭ ਮੋਹੈਗਾ ॥੯॥
सावल सुंदर रूप बणावहि बेणु सुनत सभ मोहैगा ॥९॥
He assumed the beautiful form of the blue-skinned Krishna; hearing His flute, all are fascinated and enticed. ||9||

ਬਨਮਾਲਾ ਬਿਭੂਖਨ ਕਮਲ ਨੈਨ ॥
बनमाला बिभूखन कमल नैन ॥

He is adorned with garlands of flowers, with lotus eyes.

ਸੁੰਦਰ ਕੁੰਡਲ ਮੁਕਟ ਬੈਨ ॥
सुंदर कुंडल मुकट बैन ॥
His ear-rings, crown and flute are so beautiful.

ਸੰਖ ਚਕ੍ਰ ਗਦਾ ਹੈ ਧਾਰੀ ਮਹਾ ਸਾਰਥੀ ਸਤਸੰਗਾ ॥੧੦॥
संख चक्र गदा है धारी महा सारथी सतसंगा ॥१०॥

He carries the conch, the chakra and the war club; He is the Great Charioteer, who stays with His Saints. ||10||

3. From Nirgun, non duality-advait perspective-  Off course previous avtars were rejected-called worms, were subjected to kaal because of five element transient nature, this has to be looked at from same point of view -a) rejection of sargun avtars as they are part of 5 elemental play- so one can transcendent in their spirituality-spiritual development from sargun into nirgun worship (personal to impersonal worship of god). 

 Sri Guru gobind singh ji himself also told his followers- 

jae ham ko paramaesar ouchar hai | thae sabh narak kundd mehi par hai |
Those who call me God, will fall into the pit of hell.

This vaak of maharaj should be seen as scolding of our father, cannot be taken literally. However overall message behind this vaak of this maharaj should be taken seriously. What Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji is saying- don't be attached to my transient (shud bhram sargun) saroop-personal god saroop subjected to 5 elemental play, don't confine me in transient shud sargun saroop. Realize- your and my real saroop which is Nirgun saroop via bhagti, shabad dhun, shabad gian- bhramgyan.

Sikhi upholds Absolute truth all the time but while upholding Absolute truth it also praises relative realities as well- for example- vahiguru ji avtar of narsingh we read every day in asa di vaaar- rehras sahib- Vahiguru saved bhagat parlhad ji in Narsingh form:

Har Jug Jug Bhagat Upaaiya, Paij Rakhda Aaaiya Ram Rajai
Harnakash Dusth Har Maaraya Parhlad Taariaya
Ahankarye Nindakha Pitta Daie, Namdev Mukh Laaiya
Jan Nanak Aisae Har Seevaaiya, Ant Leh chadaya ||

Gurmat is bhagti-relative-sargun / gyan-nirgun- absolute blended beautifully- somacha vaad (combined/blended)

One of vedic scholar also provides commentary and contextualization on rejection of avtars in sri dasam granth sahib:

Attachment- Six types of avtar and Satguru nanak being highest of all-avtar of bhram.

 

is that from Japji Sahib Teeka by Sant Gurbachan Singh Ji?

its always interesting viewing things from 2 perspectives. Lately I've tried doing that with Dasam Bani and its totally changed for me. 

3 hours ago, californiasardar1 said:

This whole jathabandi nonsense has had a negative impact on Sikhi, and I wish we would do away with it.

people need to stop having WWA matches with rehits imo. 

4 hours ago, S4NGH said:

Maybe post the odd anti-hindu post too... Yano just to mix things up a little...

wtf. This is exactly what donald trump warned us about! you're taking the jobs of other hard working forum members!

I mean wasn't cloning essentially the power of Rakitbheej? 

There was a guy who was on his deathbed with cancer. He dreamt of Guru Nanak Dev Ji and saw him, the mere glance of Satguru Ji made his body go all warn and fiery, he woke up the next day cured. 

Sure alot of dreams are just subconscious stuff, but there are instances where there's no correlation and something spiritual comes out of it. 

8 hours ago, BhForce said:

Just a small quibble: Bhai Gurdas ji did not write any prose, only poetry. 

So rather than the way you phrase it above, it would be better to say: his doctrinal and metaphorical verses are separate from his historical ones. Both of them are written in poetry, though.

The key point (which @Sukhvirk1976 misses) is that the mere fact that a line is written in rhyme does not mean that is non-factual.

I stand corrected.

12 minutes ago, jkvlondon said:

aghirtghana is the biggest paap and atheists are so ungrateful for so much ....Vah mere Waheguru you give without end ...

Nothing like a good scolding from Gurpita and the loving embrace of Gurmata to put you on the right track huh? 

16 minutes ago, InderjitS said:

Came across this quote and it's apt for those that doubt Sikh history when it doesn't fit with their blinkered views.

ਕਿਨੀ ਅਫਸੋਸ ਵਾਲੀ ਗੱਲ ਹੈ ਕਿ ਸਾਨੂੰ ਆਪਣੇ ਲਿਖੇ ਇਤਿਹਾਸ ਤੇ ਯਕੀਨ ਨਹੀਂ, ਮਗਰ ਜੇ ਕੋਈ ਮਗ਼ਰਿਬ ਤੋਂ ਮੁਤਾਸਿਰ ਹੋਇਆ ਫੋਕਾ ਵਿਦਵਾਨ ਕੁਝ ਕਹੈ ਦਵੇ ਤਾਂ ਅਸੀਂ ਆਪਣੇ ਰਚੇ ਹੋਏ ਇਤਿਹਾਸਿਕ ਗ੍ਰੰਥਾਂ ਅਤੇ ਸੀਨੇ ਬਸੀਨੇ ਤੋਂ ਚਲੀ ਆ ਰਹੀ ਪਰੰਪਰਾਵਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਰੱਦ ਕਰ ਦੇਂਦੇ ਹਾਂ| ਸਾਨੂੰ ਆਪਣੇ ਆਪ ਤੇ ਬਹਤ ਅਫਸੋਸ ਕਰਨਾ ਚਾਹੀਦਾ ਹੈ|ਇਸੇ ਵਾਸਤੇ ਤਾਂ ਸਿਖਾਂ ਦਾ ਇਨਾ ਬੇੜਾ ਗਰਕਿਆ ਹੈ|

People literally died for them, look at how much of our history was lost during 84, the attack of Anandpur, the Ghallugharas.  I think the whole "appeal to the athiest" crowd are the ones doing the most destruction. I say this as I was one of them.