Kira

According to the Rehet Maryada (going by the Akal Takhats one here) A sikh is everything you descibred. I believe the requirements are 1) Believe in one god 2) Believe the Guru Granth Sahib and the previous Human forms of Guru Sahib are you're sole Guide. 3) Believe in the Amrit Sanchar Guru Gobind Singh Ji prescribed. The problem arises in interfaith marriage when a Muslim or a christian comes before Guru Sahib. A Muslim believe the Prophet Muhammed is the last Divine Messengar from God, No other Messengers can come after. As a result they violate one requirements. A Similar thing is there for Christians. Even if we don't believe in the Rehet Maryada and consider it flawed (some do), The Akal Takhat which is essentially our Parliament has passed this degree. We're duty bound to obey it even if we don't like it. That's why anyone conducting interfaith Marriages is going against that command of The Akal Takhat. For all we know they might decide to change it but as of now that is the defining of a Sikh they have set out and that is the one we must follow.

You both sort of have a point. Akal Purkh is formless, so he hasn't got a mouth or a form to havea physical meet and greet. I think Balkaar is right in the sense that the divine words came to Guru Sahib. Like it or not that was God "talking" in the sense we do. Guru Nanak was taken by Waheguru to Sach Khand. What went on there is between Guru Sahib and his divine Father is what we can speculate. My belief is that Japji Sahib (the way it's uttered) was Guru Nanak Dev Ji describing to us the entire meeting, going by how Guru Sahib mentions so much of creation, So Japji Sahib was given to us by Akal Purkh through Guru Nanak Dev Ji.

Sorry but what? Do you know what Universal entitles? It means it can be practice in any region of the universe. Many religions are confined to the Dominion of Earth as many of their rules and regulations ARE Earth based. Sorry but lol. No Human's aren't. A European isn't born into a Caste, he only gets put in one when people like you start allocating it. No it's not. Gurbani and Guru Sahib once again prove you wrong. But since you're a Brahmgyani you know best. You do know why their mentioned right? Maybe if for once in your life you read a bit deeper you'd realize they were used to illustrate a point. E.G A Brahmin would seek Knowledge so the Gurbani can grant Knowledge. That doesn't mean that only the Brahmin can gain Knowledge. Anyone can. The same way Guru Nanak refers to Waheguru as Brahma in one verse to illustrate the creative nature of god. NOT the God. The same way Guru Sahib says A WARRIOR can gain power from Chandi Di Vaar. HOWEVER that does not mean that no one else can. It's used as a metaphor to point out to the people at the time how potent that said Bani is. Many if you stopped taking things out of context and actually explored it deeper you would know that. Yes or NO. did the Guru Sahib's bodies practice Caste. Why do you keep avoiding that Question. It's not difficult. This isn't an intelligent discussion. This is you proclaiming you know more than Gurbani as usual. It's mentioned Time and Time again that the body of a Saint is pure. Time and time again it's said that the name also manifests in people's body. And time and time again you say that pure naam has a caste. lmao.

Sorry but no one in their right mind would focus on what caste who came from. Common sense dictates you focus on gurbani,the history of the sikhs and what our Guru Sahib's did. like it or not but it was completely separate. What part of Everyone is born without a caste is hard for you understand or comprehend. Sikhism isn't Indian, It isn't even earthly. It's universal. The caste system functions only in India, Sikhism broke out of it. But you love to drag the Sikhs back into it. Sorry but why do you keep avoiding the question if our Guru Sahib's bodies had a caste or not. I keep repeating it but you never give a yes or no answer. It's a simple question. No hidden tricks or anything. If you read Gurbani It refers to our Bodies as temples to Worship god. are you saying our Temples (aka our bodies) are actually based on castes or have castes? Guru Sahib had the most pure body ever. How can you sit there and defile it by linking it that backwards drivel. You're now saying that the Bodies they used, the temples they represented are nothing more confined to Maya and this world as well? There's nothing in anyone genes that tell them what caste they represent. Sorry to disappoint you but our Heritage is What happened to Sikhs. Not what happened to Khatri,Brahmin etc. Hate to break it to you but Punjab-ism isn't our Culture, Sikhi is. The caste system is a product of Indian/Hindu Society. Not Sikhism. We have members from all different parts of the Earth, all you're doing now is dividing the Punjabi Sikhs into castes and then segregating the new members as well. Rather than creating a society which makes the caste system redundant you want to keep bringing it up and reminding people that their confined by it and as always totally confining them to a set norm. Guru Sahib abolished it for that exact reason but you want to bring it back because as usual you're a Brahmgyani that knows more than any MahaPurkh that walked the earth

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji ki Fetah. Let me first start by saying congratulations on trying to embrace Sikhism. I know what you're going through in a way, Thoe Bad things that happened. Learn from them, what caused them? what actions did you take for them to come to this? Once you evaluate what was causing you stress, Now you thank waheguru. Firstly for giving you the strength to get through them and secondly for providing (in a way) a path to put you back in line with goodness. Being lonely is a really horrible curse. You need to surround yourself with Positive Sangat. The people here, we fight, we bicker, we act like children. But we're all in a weird way connected. We get angry at each other, say meaningless things but at the same time in nearly everyone here, the love of Sikhism has bound us together. If you're ever lonely come on here, take part in the discussions. Learn from us and then teach us if we are doing wrong or getting something wrong. In real life don't starve yourself of Company. We should keep the company of GurSikhs and those who have a positive influence in our life. Find friends who are kind, caring, tolerant and have a good worth Ethic. Surround yourself with such a nature that the goodness will also absorb into you. Attend the Gurudwara as much as you can. Even when it's not "open" and by that I mean no Akhand Path or the sangat is almost gone from there. Attend it, go upstairs, do Patt in the presence of Maharaj, do seva there and then also attend during open days. Do Seva, talk to the Sevadar there. I'm sure there are people who can help and teach you what you need to know. Feel free to PM some of the members here. We have some right gems who knows quite a bit about Sikhism. Check our the Videos on youtube by BasicsofSikhi. He explains everything and then uses Gurbani to back up where he is coming from. As for keeping Kesh. I would suggest you start the process of keeping it by slowly going into it. Right now (in August) things are hot, so i woudl advise let your head kesh start to grow. BY the time winter comes it should be a decent length and since it's cold you'll instinctively feel better as it provides some sort of warmth. You're beard and hair in other regions will be harder. Of course you can go straight into it and with Maharaj's kirpa you might adjust to it immediately. But if you feel that appraoch is too sudden, Let it grow as slowly as possible. Slowly let it become a part of you. I hope this helps and im sure there will be more answers here to come from Sikhs who know more on this matter. Good luck

It's a good thing you feel like that. It shows you respect and really love Gurbani. But as Balkaar and Sukhwinder Bhaji said. You haven't done anything wrong.

Maybe you should go to a Hindu site preach the caste system Yet i just pointed out that Non-Indian people wouldn't know. They would say Sodhi and then think family name. For god sake why is that so hard for you to accept that sikhism is universal and not Indian LOL. carbon dating let you determine the EXACT year of a certain artifact. By doing so you can easily determine which time-line it fell to and if it correlates with the legend or not. Not to mention there are hand-written documents by the Guru Sahib and Pothis. Not to mention handwritten pieces of Gurbani,Hukamnama and other items such as his Kaccera. Now this is the part where you say it's all false and they belonged to other Sikhs. DNA Forensics can now let you compare the DNA of 2 people and see how much their related by. Guru Gobind Singh Ji's descendants are still alive. retracing the DNA tree is a a tedious but doable task for anyone who's committed to proving a lineage. Do you know why people Don't doubt the existence of Guru Sahib? why science doesn't deny it's existence. Because we have artifacts from most Guru sahibs and the final 7 human Guru sahib were all related. Comparing DNA can pretty much let you confirm if their all related or not. Yes and I then changed my tone and accepted it. I accepted Gurbani. You refuse to do that. You consider yourself perfect. simran and I just posted Gurbani after Gurbani. We posted stuff from People who are wiser than her or I. Yet you ignore it all and just pust it under the rug. Sorry but you can't say I ignore Gurbani when it's actually you doing it. Yes or no. Did the Guru Sahib have a caste or not in their human forms. Why do you keep running from the question. Not gonna bother replying if you can't even answer a simple question.

Thank you :D

Yes because in Harmandir Sahib we have idols to various gods and we pray to them Gonna be frank here but are you stupid? I legit just went through Guru sahib's family tree where HE POINTED OUT HIS GENETIC TREE but never his caste. I just showEd you there are other beings in other where there was no mention of a caste existing. But as usual you neglect and ignore Gurbani and tree it as nothing more than glass to push under your carpet. Maybe if you paid attention in a science class you'd know they have various methods to Authenticate Everything. carbon dating, DNA forensics and even the chemical make up. But as usual you're the only 100% right person here lmao. what do all these people and above them Gurbani know. Sorry but what? lol. Yes tehy are a part of Khalsa but THEY DON'T PRACTICE CASTE, IT'S NOTHING TO THEM, THEY DISCARD THEIR CASTE. why is that so hard for you to accept. You must really be dense if you decide to ignore Gurbani and just listen to whatever you feel is right. Yes or no. Did our Guru sahib's bodies have a caste.

No no. Veer Ji I hope you didn't take it the wrong way. I wasn't doubting it's historical context nor am I doubting it's reliability. I was just a bit confused by it, the Katha will clear that up for me 100%. It would be great, post it here please or PM me. Thanks

I'm a bit confused here. Please bear with me as I've not heard this Sakhi so you probably know more than I. But wouldn't Guru Nanak and Guru hargobind Ji be one person. Sicne the Jyott was the shame. Wouldn't Guru sahib be equally offended if both Guru Sahibs were insulted as they were the same person.

Maybe you should stop mistaking a Gurudwara for a Mandir. We're the one with the Guru Granth Sahib Ji and total equality. Just thought I'd clear that up. Actually (like always since you refuse to gain proper knowledge of anything worthwhile) you need to reevaluate everything once again. SCIENCE can prove people's gender,max height, hair colour. EVERYTHING Akal Purkh Gave you. so now look at it and find out where the caste system falls in the genome. you can't compare the caste system to Akal Purkh as Akal Purkh is vast and infinite. ask a scientist to prove infinity and they'd just laugh you out of their work place. Yes it can. through Genetics, records and actual Artifacts used by Guru sahib. Many of which have traces of Maharaj around. Including a comb with Guru Gobind singh ji's hair in it. Try again. You do know that Khalsa is composed of people. You can't say everyone as a whole has no caste but individually they do. hate to break it to you but the Khalsa and any member of it DONT have a caste. Khalsa is also the Physical roop of Guru Gobind Singh Ji. No sikh of Guru Gobind singh Ji would refer to their caste for anything. In other words it's not in the DNA of people and it's been concocted by people. IN other words it's not in Akal Purkh's make up of us but you still enjoy dividing people. Cool. actually the Panj Pyare discarded their castes. Completely. That was the point of them dying. Their reborn as Pure and as a result casteless. That's the point of amrit. But as usual you refuse to believe that and consider yourself 100% right So since you keep avoiding my question Yes or No. Did Guru Sahib and their bodies have a caste.

You just said "other sikhs do it" you then went on to assert that becuse of that it's fine. Rather than going to Gurbani which points out how pointless that is. This might come as a massive shock to you since you don't bother trying to read a little more than the Pamphlets you're hindu instructors give you. But science can't prove nor disprove god. Not all scientists are hard-core Atheists. Science is the study of the Physical realm, now bear with me while I get a bit more technical. It tries to explain HOW things happen, how Gravity functions, how life progressives from simple prokaryotic cell and so on. Gurbani doesn't contradict this. And what did I just say to you? actually scratch that. what did Gurbani say. The KHALSA HAS NO CASTE. Why do you choose to challenge it all the time. Why is so hard for you to accept that Caste System is redundant in Sikhism. I just literally broke it down for you to the point a small child could understand. But you're Hindu Priests really seem to have brainwashed you well. Let me ask you another Question. Would you refer to a prisoner from the Concentration Camp Auschwitz by their prison number. And how many times do I need to spell it out for you. Gurbani says. It.is.FALSE. Why do you struggle to comprehend that. You clearly think you're better than Gurbani. Those are obvious Characteristics. do you look at someone and then brand them into a certain caste? what a judgmental person you are Waheguru blessed them with a gender,height,weight. Sorry but Caste isn't so obvious. So please break it down. Look at someone's genome and find out where it states which Caste they are. You can break down a Genome and find out someone's sex. It's written there X-X = woman X-Y = male. So now look for Genome which states which caste someone is. For the caste system. Go ahead, prove it. We've all posted Gurbani, learned sikhs but you ignore them all. Right now the only person exhibiting any Hukar is you. You refuse to admit Guru Sahib abolished the Caste System because you're probably happy with your caste. Now answer my question. DID THE GURU SAHIB HAVE A CASTE OR NOT. YES OR NO. Also would you ask the Original Panj Pyare what their caste is by the sounds of things you would. Because she think she's infallible. We just listed sources, gurbani and provided evidence. But it's all mute to someone who thinks their completely right 100% of the time,. Only reason im bothering is so people don't read her dribble and start falling into the Caste System once again.

That's you're Humai talking. That's societies Humai talking. Never once did Guru Sahib claim their family was of a certain caste. The explained their lineage BUT they never said "we're Khatri" or "we were" . Guru Nanak said Make mankind you're Yogic Brotherhood lmao and yet here you are categorizing people. If you ask a white Sikh what caste a certain surname will belong to you, they would literally go "what? " By you're logic you would join in. You claim other Sikhs do it so it's fine. And I'm telling you to prove it. Is that so hard for you to do? Our Genome defines what our Physical body can or can't do. It defines our Physical characteristics. Let me correct you're words. YOU BELIEVE everyones including our Guru Sahib's bodies take part in the caste system BECAUSE that's what you were taught. That isn't what Gurbani teaches us and going lower down the spectrum that isn't even what Science says. AS USUAL you believe anything someone tells you without a shred of proof. Why? because I believe the caste system is false and should be ignored? because I believe in true equality to all man,woman ? it must suck let's take it a step further. Guru Nanak showed all of creation to a Muslim Pir in Baghdad to prove to him that Creation is limitless. TO prove that he had actually visited other words the Pir brought back FOOD. Or Prashad to be precise from another world. Guru Sahib also mentions in Gurbani how there are countless other life forms. It's pretty obvious that God has been paying attention to them. A form of Sikhi will exist there as they are even described as fields of Karma. Now let's apply YOU'RE VIEWS to them. You would claim their bodies take part in the caste System. BUT Gurbani NEVER makes that statement. It does state.. 1) they exist 2) They can reap the seeds of good deeds they plant. 3) Gurbani exists for them too If you look at it from a scientific and a social prescriptive CIVILIZATIONS have COME and GONE without developing a complex. The Caste System phenomenon INDIAN are hellbent on keeping. The fact that Prashad was offered to 2 otherworldly people is ample proof to suggest that these people are advance and caring people. They didn't care about Caste. Nor did they inquire As that would have been mentioned by the Pir or our Beloved Guru Sahib. You don't even need to go as far as Bhai Gurdas Ji to find proof that Guru Nanak never added his caste or any other form of caste Related honorifics/links. So did our Guru Sahib's bodies have castes then?

That was their family Name. Their caste (if they had chosen to refer to it) would have been Khatri but the fact they excluded it is point enough for any sane Sikh that the caste System is utterly pointless. lmao what? are you going to follow what other Sikhs do or what Gurbani tells us? If all the Sikhs you know started doing Devi Pooja bowing towards idols would you start doing that too? and this time please don't start with "no they would never" just consider the distinctive Scenario. lol what, which kinds of things lmao? You're logic is if the family is from or belonged to a certain caste people are then confined to that caste. In actaulity guru Nanak or his successors to his Jott never once referred to their caste. and what caste would someone from the Smith family fall under then? What about Someone from a Sekibo family. Please stop. Go to a Geneticist. Find out what waheguru wants your caste to be. Look in your genes, you got them from Waheguru. Are you going to listen to what you're culture tells you or what God has prescribed. Look there and find me the genome which states what caste you are. You've yet to address my point. are you saying the Guru Sahib's bodies also practiced the Caste System? What more would I expect from someone who holds what other humans state higher than what Gurbani states

Thank you for bringing up Family Line In one swipe you just undercut your entire argument. Here you say. But now you just affirmed that it's the family line which prevents interbreeding. Thank you for clearing that up and once again reasserting that the caste System is a pointless practice. There are Gurudwara's near Mandirs. Let's go and bow our heads toward the idols there too. lmao really? so our Guru Sahib's had a caste? that they actively called themselves members of the said caste? Did you know the only name Guru Gobind Singh Ji added to his identity was Singh and then his family name if asked? He never once mentioned his caste? Why are you giving it so much importance. The Khalsa has no caste. You can't say Khalsa has no caste...BUT IF SOMEONE ASKS I'M OF TARKHAN ORIGIN. What a self contradictory way to think. I want you to go a proper Geneticist and ask him to crack open your DNA. Now I want you to find the part of it which tells you which caste your from. Go ahead do it. Our Genes are what's given to us by the lord. Their what our Body will do, their what our Body will look like. So find me where in that it's inscribed about which caste someone belongs to. I don't remember you being a Brahmgyani that knows what I can or will receive. I've met a-lot of Sikhs on this forum. I've disagreed with many of them. But none of them have ever disrespected Gurbani and pushed it under a rug because it didn't fit their picture. None of them have ever tried changing and adding their own little things to Sikhism and tried to change the very fundamentals of Sikhism.

Sorry but lol. Firstly marrying into the respective Caste will actually RESTRICT the Gene pool and ENCOURAGE inbreeding and the promotion of double recessive genes which leads to genetic deficiencies. I've yet to hear of a Mahapurkh that decides to go take a dip in the Ganges or any other River when Gurbani points out it's pointless. But as usual your perfect. Also to counter your love to associate with the caste system Guru Sahib writes. Now this is the part where you say Gurbani is wrong and you're 100% correct. Did you not watch the video. Where it highlights the differences between both concepts? I know watching a video and absorbing Gurmat Gyan is against what you're Pandits teach you but try and bear with us. She never looks or even tries to read any other sources. Even if someone posts Gurbani she'll pretend it doesn't exist. Guru Sahib abolished the Caste System but we have people like Preet who want to drag it back into Sikhism lol. I bet she's fine calling all Black People the "N" word and all other slave names as it's a part of History but it's ok as no one really means to use it to bring them lower down.

Yup correct 100%. They were assassins sent by the Niwab of Sirhind I believe. The Niwab was extremely Jealous of the good relationship Guru Sahib had with the emperor at the time, he feared that his own power and influence would be undermined. Guru Sahib was attacked by 2 assassins. The first one wounded Guru Sahib, the wound under normal circumstances would have killed anyone but Guru Sahib swiftly killed his assassin. While the other one fled. I believe the Singhs that were with Guru Sahib caught him and killed him as well. An English Physican was called by the Emperor to treat Guru Sahib's wound. The wound was sealed but since Guru Sahib was a Brahmgyani he knew that it wasn't permanent. When the wound reopened Guru Sahib then appointed Guru Granth Sahib Ji as Guru. This is where things get a bit mixed up for some people. Some Sikhs claim that Guru Sahib Ji had a Funeral Pyaree built and told all of his Sikhs to look away. as he went inside, I can't remember or find the exactness. But either one of the Singh lit the Pyaree or it self combusted I believe. Anyways the flames roared and eventually when it died down they found a small Kirpan there. Most people assumed that Guru Sahib had actually left to Sach Khand along with his form just like Guru Nanak Dev Ji. However a Sikh Bhai Sangat Singh Ji asked why people were disheartened. When he was informed of Guru Sahib's departure he looked confused, As he had Just met Guru Sahib earlier on and had spoken to and then taken Prashad from Guru Sahib. This left the Sangat confused. I believe the moral of this was that Guru Sahib will aid Sikhs whenever they need his help. His Physical form is gone but his Spiritual form still roams the earth (god I make it sound like he's a ghost, he's not lol). He'll be there for you whenever you need him. In any form, in any shape, we may not know it, we may not even see it but he is there. There are even Historical accounts of Guru Sahib appearing to certain Sikhs and even non-sikhs I believe.

I'm sorry but are you now saying there is more than one way to Pronounce Ekonankar? if you are then you're completely disregarding the method Our Guru Sahib Prescribed. Good then stop asserting Om and EkOnankar are the same thing, their different concepts . When Guru Sahib pointed out they were not. Learned scholars and our Guru Sahib told us they were different. But As usual you'll dispute everything including Gurbani and everyone else as you think your the 100% right. Why on earth are you calling yourself a sikh lol. If you think the Ganges can wash your sins go and lie in it all your life. You'll leave this life pure lmao.

Ah alright thanks Bhaji

Sorry but I'm not going to trust what people say. Various gods and Goddess are mentioned to illustrate certain points, if you feel the need to use and change Gurbani by referring to them in other names, lol it's on your head. Guru Sahib made it clear how we're to pronounce the words. pronunciation is everything. You should read the story about the Sikh that mispronounced Gurbani infront of Maharaj and why Guru Sahib started damdami Taksal. Right now what you're saying is that Gurbani allows people to change the words but since they essentially mean the same thing its fine. What you're now saying is that Gurbani CAN be changed. I just showed you why Oum and EkOnankar are deemed separate terms as Onankar was a newly formed word by Guru Sahib but as usual you consider yourself more reputable than Maharaj. Sorry for pointing it out but the whole reason of the Santhiya is stop Sikhs mispronouncing everything. Regardless of what other faiths say we're to refer to everything the way Gurbani Taught us. Not what Hinduism taught, not what Christianity taught and so on. As usual you decide to disregard Maharaj's words and decide your own interpretation is correct. It's your type of thinking that stops people gaining proper Gurmat Gyan of Santhiya. As you believe "oh well close enough so its fine". Even when reading the most Basic Mool Mantr people make countless mistakes as we're imperfect. But with the knowledge of Santhiya you can help limit them. You're happy to mispronounce Gurbani but get this. Not everyone is.

Good then stop arguing with what Guru Gobind Singh Ji taught, Oum and Ekonkaar are completely different words regardless how you want it to. Stop adding your own thoughts and what you believe into what Guru Sahib taught. Accents have very little to do with Gurbani IF someone pronounces it correctly, Many White Sikhs have extremely good pronunciations of Gurbani despite not being born into a tradition Sikh household.. Unless now you're saying Gurbani is imperfect and only certain accents can fully relish it's delights. But if you're fine with agreeing with people that Guru Sahib coined it from the Vedas then so be it. So whatever Of course not. You just love to argue with Gurbani instead because you know best.

That made me chuckle. It's so true.

Good then listen to the Damdami Takhsal. They learned directly from Guru Gobind Singh Ji and they assert time and time again their different words with different pronunciations. If you feel you know more than Guru Sahib then fine lol. Not even gonna start lol, don't have the time or energy to bash my head against a wall. You should just stick to going to your Mandhirs Preet.

Yes it really does. If you want to mispronounce the first sentence of Gurbani then go for it. Allah and Ram mean the same thing, but their different words entirely. The same applies for IkOnakar and Oum. IkOnakar didn't come from Oum. It was actually a completely unique creation for it's time. i know you lack basic reading comprehension. I know this is a big thing for you so let help you make it crystal clear I believe Gurbani is perfect but I also believe anyone who will sit down and lovingly address God and try to reach god will reach god. Regardless of what Scripture they read. God is about love and devotion. I already apologized for my "useless comment" however if all that is beyond you then be my guest. Maybe it's time you took a dip in your Ganga Devi again. My words may have caused you to sin by mistake. Not sure if that was directed at me.