Kira

Through love and devotion? like how our guru's started the religion perhaps? Children are important they're not The most important factor. In general for anyone who wishes to conceive. And once again you point out that infertile couples are horrible and should have their marriage dissolved. The Guru Sahib made it clear. you're in denial. I am not. What have I made up. Here actually read the Gurbani for a change. http://user47011.vs.easily.co.uk/wp/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Lavan-Hymns.pdf Point me to where it says that we need to have children to pass on Sikhi and that is the goal of the marriage. http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/threads/sikhism-marriage-and-divorce.26267/ Once again Sikhi says otherwise. But please by all means keep acting like you know better than Guru sahib.. Good I'm glad you've said something sensible so far. A while ago you said the ideal scenario would be to have your own kids? So now you're saying they should adopt and give up on Waheguru blessing them with a child? going back on your words already Preet ji :D Because Science and Technology wasn't advanced back then? Guru Sahib can cure diseases, but I guess that means we should stop seeing doctors? Indeed you do, however the option of marriage is to provide a physical companion who can help you defeat the physical evils that confront you. once again the lavan are clear but you consider yourself a Brahmgiani. Also please address my point about the Guru Sahib's children. Or are you saying our Guru sahib had bad karma?

Does science and knowledge make you uncomfortable? is debating current theories something you can't get behind? are academic something you despise? :D Thank you for showing to everyone that Guru Sahib's attempts to abolish the Caste System are pointless. Thank you for showing to everyone your thoughts of Sikhism are warped and rooted in Punjabi culture rather than gurbani. It became an integral part of society whether you like it or not. The root of where it came form is inconsequential. So far you've basically said that the caste system is real and we should keep letting people be bound by that. That our Guru sahib would endorse punjabi culture where drinking, discrimination, rituals are rife. I beg you to please pick up a Sikhi book and read it to clear your mind of these misconceptions. So far nearly everyone here is against you, another Benji spoke up about how your thoughts make her laugh. You're incapable of holding a proper discussion because you think you're far better than Guru Sahib ji and you have so far in another thread refused to accept Guru sahiib's words. I'm not negatively minded, I see evil where there is evil. I would rather be Japanese because I enjoy their light novels/manga/anime? Oh dear god. I also enjoy certain American shows, if i put an american up on my avatar god help me I must want to be white. If I like rap music I must want to suddenly be black. I also enjoy reading English literature, guess that means I must want to be English as well Just because i like looking and learning about other cultures doesn't mean I want to join them in any way. I'm certainly not like you who seems to endorse the caste system and deny bani.

If you actually think Children are the only way to spread Sikhi then you are honestly one narrow minded individual. And I was referring to modern day times. Why can't I? Guru Har Rai Sahib built medicinal and research facilities because he saw the need to provide a source of modern medicine for People, All of our Guurus were forward thinking, if modern medicine bothers you so much then go empty your cabinet, if you ever lose a limb feel free to sit there and ignore medical treatment. If you think artificial Insemination if bad then you may as well say blood transfusions, transplants are equally as bad. I'm going to quote something you just said here. So now you're changing you're words :nono: and denying people a chance to have their own children as well. And once again the Lavan speak of how together as spouses you can beat any form of maya,evil that may tempt you. But of course you know more than Guru Granth Sahib ji. Once again you lack of actual knowledge is showing. remarriage is permitted in Sikhism. Lavan say the point of marriage is to get closer to god, but Great guru Preet knows better than Parbrahmgiani Guru Granth sahib ji. what's so wrong wiht those labels? that's like someone saying my preference of ice cream is Chocolate or vanilla. I guess they've not beaten moh then. Sexual attraction AND lust are different things. Look at the definitions for crying out loud. Lust is an obsession for sex or a STRONG DESIRE for Sex. You can be straight and have no lust. No they don't need to have a Santan. I've met so many spiritual people, some of them are the kindest and most gentle souls in the world but one of them couldn't conceive. I guess that must mean their not dharmic. lol what? Waheguru can do anything. You know just because there wasn't some miracle where a massive amount of lights go off an the woman suddnely can conceive doesn't mean there wasn't a blessing of Waheguru. His blessing comes in many forms, IVF, artificial insemination are all due to his kirpa too. You're really acting daft arern't you. I don't believe you're this myopic. I may be wrong. But I never EVER said that a Spouse is a GUIDE. I said he is a COMPANION. Someone who TAKES PART in everything Sikhi you do, someone to assist you in helping beat Maya,the evils. I dont see why you keep denying Guru Granth Sahib ji's words. Sad point of the matter is Guru Granth Sahib Ji says one thing and it is universally accepted. But the Reverend Guru Preet doesn't accept that and insist it's another because you're upbringing is saying something else. If Children were the means of Waheguru to pass on the faith then why did Bab Sri Chand rebell against Guru Nanak Dev ji. Why did Ram Rai change Gurbani while Guru har-Rai ji told him to remain true. Why did Prithi Chand scheme and lie against his own father. Are you now going to say that it was all because of Bad Karma, that our Guru Sahib had bad karma?

I don't think Preet quite gets the point of the Khalsa. To protect the weak and punish the wicked, which is the logical goal of most judicial systems.

No you wont. That's like saying someone was born a Hindu, converted to Sikhism but will always remain a hindu. BY your logic we're all Africans as evidence indicates we all came from there. Guess we're all Africans now folks, pack your bags and lets shift there. Their Ethnicity might Indian (correct label is asian as a race) but their nationality is and will always be where they were born, where they were brought up and what they identify as. I find it slightly humorous how most Indians are so quick to defend their lineage but seem to hesitate when asked if they should move back there. No offense but you should be ashamed of yourself for even saying that. At that time Punjabi Culture was and still is associated with discrimination against females, rituals, the caste system. Sati and dowry were such an integral part of culture at that time. It's utterly moronic to say our Guru Sahib were ok with the culture. If you ever pick up a history book and read about Guru Nanak Dev ji you'll see why he was so outspoken about society and culture there. Outspoken = not accepting it. By saying they were ok with the culture, you're saying Guru Sahib was ok with burning woman alive, demanding large amounts of money for dowry, stopping the education process of anyone who wishes to learn. Indian culture was and still is oppressive, controlling and extremely judgmental.

Not anymore. You can reproduce without even having sex. Lust is the obsession with sex, what you're saying is one needs to rely on Kaam to reproduce. It's hardly un-natural in the sense that it is found even in many species of animals.

So love of god isn't? I was referring to present day times. I think we're confused on this. How is it "besharam" lol. 2 people who are both infertile are now given the chance to have children. Only they get either sperm or egg donated by someone else. I guess by your logic any form of transplant is besharam. Guru Har-Rai Sahib ji ran a medicine store where some of the rarest herbs could be purchased. He was instrumental in curing the Mughal prince of an ailment that was befalling him. All Artificial insemination is, is that it is a progression of science to cure infertility. You need to quit living in the 19th century my friend. I would never force anyone to join or subjugate to a religion lol. Even my own children should I force to have them. My parents never forced me into Sikhi, I grew to love by myself. You can have kids to pass on Sikhi to them but really it's all down to them. By your standards marriage is a fail if the child decides to become an atheist/Muslim/christian etc I'd look for a facepalm button but I would really never find one to express how quickly you overlooked what I wrote. " Imagine having someone there with you at all times" I hope to god you realize that you're not going to in a gurudwara at night unless you're a granthi.Why are you still arguing this, Guru Sahib's already made it abundantly clear what the purpose of the marriage is. Do you know better than Guru Sahib? let me direct your attention to the Lavan. Har doojrree laav Satgur purkh Milaya balram jeo. Nirbhao bhey mun hoey Haomay meil gaviya balram jeo. Nirmal bhao paya Har goon gaya Har vekheh Ram hadooreh. Har aatam Ram pasarial Suami Sarab rihya bharpooray Antar bahar Har Prabh eko Mil Har jan mangal gaaeh Jan Nanak dooji laav chlaaee Unhudh Sabad vajaeh. || 2 || Comes the second nuptial round. And the Lord has made you to meet the True Guru. With your heart bound by the fear of the Fearless God. All sense of pride has been washed from the mind. Knowing the fear of God and singing His praises, You behold His presence before you. God, the Lord Master is the soul of the creation; He pervades everywhere and fills all places with His Being. Know then that there is One God, within us and without. 17 And His songs of rejoicing are heard in the company of His servants. Nanak proclaims, that in this second nuptial round, the Divine Music is heard The Point of the Spouse is a permanent Sadh Sangat. I've not said their angels lol. So far you've branded them lustful sinners who spend all their time ogling others. It's pretty funny how so far you've said. 1) Gays are lustful 2) gays have sexual partners (s) 3) they spend all their time ogling people. All you've done is proven beyond a doubt being gay is no different than being heterosexual. Good work on that. You should really read up a bit about the Kinsey Scale and sexuality in general. I don't mean this in a disrespecting way but your views on homosexuals and sexuality in general are extremely outdated. The Kinsey Scale is basically a spectrum on which everyone falls. Ranging from exclusively homosexual to bisexual and then to heterosexual. What sort of stuff lol. So far you've stated that the marriage union is for children. But the Lavan explicitly state it's to help you get closer to god. The stuff in them hasn't changed, Gurbani in this context is crystal clear. Guru Sahib defined what a marriage is (union of 2 souls) and what the goal of a successful marriage is (getting closer to Waheguru). What about rape then lol. I already stated that 2 people laying together is frowned upon in society but you said everything but children can't be done without marriage. We don't even need to have sex to have children now. Artificial insemination takes care of that too. And even better it doesn't involve sex, so there is no lust whatsoever. So am I right in assuming that people who fail to conceive have failed in their wedding vows by your logic. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-20445350 Even Gyani have Kaam lol. We all have the same exposure to Kaam, we all have the same means to combat it. A person without Kaam is rare to find. You're misapplying Kaam in a marriage. It shouldn't even be there. It does not exist in a real marriage. In a person it can't exist. Hetero,bi or even gay they all have the same chance to get rid of Kaam. They are all equally exposed to Kaam. implying that one sexual orientation is less Kaam than another is like me implying that black people are dumber than asians.

A huge factor but not the biggest factor. I'm talking about now, when child protection does exist. So in other words you would rather have a population of watered down sikhs than a small collective of actual Sikhs? take a good look around at our culture, its Punjabi first Sikhi then, its more of a trend that most teens seem to follow now. Put on some khanda, a nice sticker to support Khalistan and vola we're sikhs. The converts from the west are doing far better than we are, They seem to be much more in tune with Sikhi than some of our own members. Reproduction isn't the only way Sikhi can survive. So where does artificial insemination and even surrogate mothers fall in this? Neither of them are "natural" means of conception in the sense that it's not something that can be done on a whim. Gay couples are now perfectly able to have kids, albeit only containing half their genetic code but genes aren't everything. yes it can, but again you're not seeing the bigger picture. The whole concept of marriage is to MAKE IT EASIER. Imagine having someone there with you at all times, who can keep you on the right path, help you control your vices and be your life companion till death. 2 bodies with just one soul. Feel free to remain single all your life if you wish, there is nothing wrong with that. But those kind of things are frowned upon in Indian culture. Not so much in the west, but in indian culture. The whole point of marriage is to make your life easier, a sort of companion who shares the same goal as you. You can argue all you want, but the Lavan are clear. It isn't just spiritual guidance. Dear god. Our Spiritual guide is Guru Granth Sahib ji, the shabad guru. No one else. Your Spouse is your companion, someone who's attempting the same thing as you, you're helping one another get there by fighting the 5 vices, providing good sangat with the blessing of Maharaj. No offence but it's pretty clear you have a sigma against homosexuals in general. They say they have a lot of lust but I guess that must mean that your heterosexual friends don't. I bet they never looked at guys or girls with lust or even feel emotions like that. I bet all your heterosexual friends were men of god who never did anything lustful. This may come as a shock to you but the amount of lust a gay person has is the same as a heterosexual would have. You should stop looking at how the media and society portray them and maybe look at them as equals and people. It's pretty clear you look down on them. Once again the Lavan prove you wrong, Someone forgot their biology. You can have children without being married. I take it you know about the birds and the bees. The Point of marriage is to provide sanctity for the children who are born into it. If the point of marriage was purely to produce an heir to carry on the legacy then why wasn't it brought up in the lavan. Why isn't it mentioned there? A while back you claimed that by asking Waheguru for children (for those who are infertile) even infertile couples can get married. But that's never the case, I guess that means their marriage was pointless. You can sit here and keep telling yourself marriage is only for kids. But the Lavan in Gurbani say a different thing. But of course, you're opinion is all that matters. The only thing perfect in this world is Gurbani. Those who can't have children adopt, even after marriage. So we may as well dissolve their marriage as it was a massive fail since they couldn't have children.

interesting. I'm aware of the lack of industry in punjab compared to the rest of india, I was just adding bit more context (and a slight exaggeration haha). How long would you say they could last if Punjab did suddenly cut them off.

I'm curious about that, can you shed some light on this please.

Wouldn't Pakistan be fine with Khalistan though. India loses a large chunk of its land,industry and food source and it leaves them even weaker. Plus having another Ally against them would be beneficial to them. I'm not proposing an alliance or anything but it is a possibility

How are people falling back into rituals not affecting the sikh quam? Many people who travel to Punjab want to get back in touch with their roots in Sikhi, with these things around it causes confusion and controversy. Let's not forget the fake baba and dera that are popping up faster than ever.

An adopted child can also adopt the religion of his new parents, Sikhism is a universal universal religion afterall, confining it to only being dharmic is somewhat odd. Obviously I'm not saying that. You're being a tad narrow minded here like It says in the lavan the whole point is to find a companion who can also join your journey to god, sure this can be done alone, but Guru sahib put an emphasis on finding god within the confines of your own home/community, Marriage is an integral part of that . Reproduction is utterly meaningless, your child could easily be swayed by bad sangat to abandon Sikhi. As for your second point, giving an orphaned child a home is an extremely noble thing to do. If you think it's horrible and atrocious then good for you, but giving a small child who has no one a home and then raising them as your own. That there is one heck of a good deed. Waheguru's light is alive in them too. Again if you read the Lavan they tell you otherwise. You don't need to have a child, that's not your goal in life. You're goal in life is to join Akal Purkh Waheguru ji. The purpose of marriage IS finding someone who has the same mission and can also join you in this quest. This is a concept accepted almost universally in our faith (at-least all the Sikhi sites are saying this). Tricky question to be fair. I'm entirely not sure if I am or not. I pray Waheguru will guide me to the truth. The reason im bothering to respond to things like this is purely because when it comes to homosexuality Punjabi (and indian people in general) are very ignorant of it at times. NOt all mind you, but a vast number. They enter a frenzy of hate and pure anger that would make even Lions flee. In most cases they treat it like a disease, a curse, the person involved is evil and almost hinting in extreme cases should die. I find it sad, even comical at times as most of them have probably never met a gay person before. You've clearly not met a gay person here haha. A gay person isn't filled with lust. That's a stupid myth. They desire men (or in the case of lesbians woman) the same way a heterosexual would desire the opposite sex. By saying their trying to take advantage of Kaam and moh while being "dharmic" you need to accept the same is true for heterosexual people. Or are Heterosexual people just filled with such love and devotion that they could never look at a man/woman in such a way :laugh2:

They add to the Beauty of Harmandir sahib for sure. I wonder what happens to these fish during Kar seva when they clean the full Sarovar.

Yes it's perfectly fine but you are warned that some aspects and principles are deeper understood with proper Gurmukhi.

Oh yes, it's doing marvelously. Look at our birthplace where corruption is rife, Guru sahib's biadhmi is wide spread, people are dissolving into rituals once again and our religion is being poisoned by malicious propaganda. Oh yes, Sikhi is doing well in Punjab. So a sort of devolved Parliament like the one Scotland runs? Do you believe that the central indian government would allow this and not interfere?

I know a-lot of sikhs here and elsewhere are passionate about this. But I have a couple of questions about it, things that confuse me. Firstly im assuming that Khalistan is an independent nation for Sikhs, That's all cool and something I would support, but economically and even looking at the state of the world is it possible? Our global economy isn't all too good right now and im no economist but how would people start a new currency? Then we have politics and govern-ship. I'll assume that we would want a Sikh leadership but how would politics and religion mix into things. Would keeping them separate be wiser or not? There's also allies or even potential defense, budget, healthcare. How would we afford all this? This is mainly aimed at the more wiser supporters of the movement as I'm pretty curious how things would go about.

Who deemed it un-natural and lustful lol. It's about as lustful as heterosexuality and just as "un-natural" . That should be your answer lol. If Guru-sahib choose not to address it, it means it's not even worth thinking about as it doesn't affect us morally. You'll get a-lot of conflicting views from Sikhs here and in the community. The main problem is that most sikhs are Punjabi/Indian first then Sikhs lol, since India considers it evil you'll hear the same views from many people. Sexuality is hardly an issue for us as GurSikhs, Gays are persecuted world wide, their outcasts of society and treated like a disease, Showing them sympathy would be almost as insulting as giving them insults. They want to be treated like equals, they want the same opportunities everyone else has. We should stand up to them in that respect.

I had a look at the Sikh lavan (if thats how you spell it). There's nothing there that says the point of the marriage is to reproduce, the point of the marriage is to get closer to god. 2 souls residing in one body ya know. A Santan isn't restricted by biology, an adopted son is just as good as a biological one. It's insulting to say one is better than the other.

Our intellect plays a part in our moral compass, it helps us decide what is right or wrong. Your Spirituality should come from that, not what you're physically engineered to do. For example you're mind would tell you not to steal, as it is wrong and has negative consequences for both yourself and the person you steal from. I don't understand how you're physical,sexual or even genetics would fall under that. One could steal to fuel lust to hire prostitutes but even then the act is based on stealing and lust, which as we know is wrong. I suppose it all relates back to free-will, though I have no idea where Sikhism stands on that. That is the sad truth of Kalyug Are you implying that the Gursikhs in akal takhat are approved by Guru-sahib ji? I'll agree with you there, but rather than taking advice from other people, we should simply turn to our biggest and most power spiritual teacher himself. Guru Guranth Sahib Maharaj. Although on the topic of the Akal takhat. Just a question to the more knowledgeable people here, what sort of background do the people who take charge there have. I'm not talking upbringing but things such as Education, how they have traveled, who they met etc. I feel when it comes to the Akal Takhat the main reason many sikhs disrespect it is due to the fact that their almost in a different world from the west. Their decisions are influenced by the Indian Populous. Their afraid to speak out at all. That argument itself is pretty weak on the grounds that homosexuality will never be the majority. Even when observing other species the number of animals that exhibit homosexual is usually fairly steady (I believe something like 10%). They themselves do play a certain role in ensuring the future of their race, even if they do not reproduce themselves. Reproduction is all fine, but even it can never be enough to ensure survival in places such as the wild. Of course we claim we've evolved past that, but regardless that animal instinct still remains in humans.

It's not that simple though, We can all say they can try and align their inner and outer thoughts and feelings, but it's alot like being born with a natural trait and trying to hide it (say hair color), you can try and dye your hair but eventually even that fades. I don't see why anyones sexual orientation or even who they associate as with their gender is anything Waheguru would care about. Nothing is outside of his will, we shouldn't change ourselves to appease society. We should change ourselves spiritually to appease waheguru only. I sometimes wonder if people like branding homosexuality as "un-natural" because it's easier to disregard it that way. It's hardly "un-natural" in the sense it's found in many other species of animals too.

I'm not sure why you quoted me but gender issues are bit more complex than that. I dont claim to be an expert but surgery is usually for those who seriously want to feel like a woman/man on the outside as well. Mentally speaking they are still the gender they claim to be in their brains regardless of the surgery.

That's a really fair point. I don't understand why people feel the need to over-simply waheguru's will. Heck, lets step back and look at the world physically for a change. There are laws that govern our universe, but in many instances they're not even constant, certain cases arise which are completely beyond what we know or even understand, applying simplicity or even just what we know as a universal law to them might end up completely misrepresenting or even misunderstanding them. No one instance will ever be the same, every scenario is different, even if its just a microscopic difference. Gurbani provides us with a path and a compass, it's up to us if we decide whether we'll use those tools or simply get side tracked by mundane affairs.

You're action was still pretty admirable.

And here we all took it for humility I'm so curious on OP's age now.