Lion(LK)King

Massive respect to Samosa Singh's response

Veer jeyo, the post mentioned -

http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?showtopic=16834&hl=

Talks about both Dhirmal and Vadbhag Singh (since he was their decendant)

ISDhillon posted the video here, saying that tapoban responses to Vadhbhag Singh weren't accurate (there have been several threads with hundreds of post on tapoban on him and his dera)

Anyway sorry to fo off topic.

This 'Vadhbhag Singh "Maharaj"' video was pretty wierd as it goes back to Hindu rituals, and uhm heretic practisis (would this statement be to big to make?) - it definetly hasn't justifyed the dera's action, but instead it has confirmed the dodgy things said about the dera..

Just to inform you that that video was posted as a response to the discussion on the following thread-

http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?showtopic=16834&hl=

The attempt was to show how much Gurmat the dera follows - does it succeed?

The viewer herself/himself decides how much it goes inlign with Gurmat (teaching of the Gurus)

Regards

Love the response by Maan Quam liye Qurban, 00gurpreet_singh00, and Kharkho jee.

It is ridiculous have we even started having photos to begin with. Are we saying they didn't remember the Gurus 24/7 when there were not paintings of them?

It is very recently that painters have started drawing pictures - whihc is extremely sad and hurting. We Sikhs are KILLING OURSELVES!!!

Just look at Muslims- anyone dares to call a painting of an arabic man Mohammad , look at their reaction - why are we allowing paintings to be amde and sold.

THe BODY never WAS THE GURU, it was the SHABAD inside. No matter how many times anyoen bows infront of a photo of a body (ultimately its a picture of tissues and cells) - it's NOT GOING TO HELP - NO PHAL. THe pyaar is beign misplaced to something useless - a picture of a body - neither of them doign any good. Pictures are nto accepted, neither are worshipping bodies. We have started bowing to the pictures of Bodies. We've got our Guru HERE SO CLOSE TO US-

rwmklI mhlw 5 CMq

<> siqgur pRswid ]

swjnVw myrw swjnVw inkit KloieAVw myrw swjnVw ]

jwnIAVw hir jwnIAVw nYx AloieAVw hir jwnIAVw ]

nYx AloieAw Git Git soieAw Aiq AMimRq ipRA gUVw ]

nwil hovMdw lih n skMdw suAwau n jwxY mUVw ]

mwieAw mid mwqw hoCI bwqw imlxu n jweI Brm DVw ]

khu nwnk gur ibnu nwhI sUJY hir swjnu sB kY inkit KVw ]1]

Raamkalee, Fifth Mehl, Chhant:

One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:

Friend, my Friend - standing so near to me is my Friend!

Beloved, the Lord my Beloved - with my eyes, I have seen the Lord, my Beloved!

With my eyes I have seen Him, sleeping upon the bed within each and every heart; my Beloved is the sweetest ambrosial nectar.

He is with all, but he cannot be found; the fool does not know His taste.

Intoxicated with the wine of Maya, the mortal babbles on about trivial affairs; giving in to the illusion, he cannot meet the Lord.

Says Nanak, without the Guru, he cannot understand the Lord, the Friend who is standing near everyone. ||1||

We have abandoned our Gurbani for PHOTOS!!!

http://www.sikhitothemax.com/Page.asp?Sour...D=3377&Format=2

gur ibnu Goru AMDwru gurU ibnu smJ n AwvY ]

gur ibnu suriq n isiD gurU ibnu mukiq n pwvY ]

guru kru scu bIcwru gurU kru ry mn myry ]

guru kru sbd spuMn AGn ktih sB qyry ]

guru nXix bXix guru guru krhu gurU siq kiv nl´ kih ]

ijin gurU n dyiKAau nhu kIAau qy AkXQ sMswr mih ]4]8]

Without the Guru, there is utter darkness; without the Guru, understanding does not come.

Without the Guru, there is no intuitive awareness or success; without the Guru, there is no liberation.

So make Him your Guru, and contemplate the Truth; make Him your Guru, O my mind.

Make Him your Guru, who is embellished and exalted in the Word of the Shabad; all your sins shall be washed away.

So speaks NALL the poet: with your eyes, make Him your Guru; with the words you speak, make Him your Guru, your True Guru.Those who have not seen the Guru, who have not made Him their Guru, are useless in this world. ||4||8||

Keep him inside of you!!!

See him with your soul!!

srby eyku AnykY suAwmI sB Gt BuogvY soeI ]

kih rivdws hwQ pY nyrY shjy hoie su hoeI ]4]1]

The One Lord is pervading the many forms; He enjoys Himself in all hearts.

Says Ravi Daas, the Lord is nearer than our own hands and feet. Whatever will be, will be. ||4||1||

He's not outside of you - he's within you!

Hes closer than your HANDS AND FEET!

When you fall - what goes there first? You hand When you hurt your eyes - what goes there first? Your hand

Guru Sahib is CLOSER TO YOU THAN YOUR HANDS AND FEET -

Yet we look at his photos and think we can find him in the photos

We Sikhs have lost it - we're back where we started - where Guru Nanak Dev JI came to pull us out of - domatic and base-less rituals, idoltry - we're back on square one.

gur mUrq kr iDAwn sdw hjUr hY]

gur mooruth kur dhiaan sudhaa hujoor hai

Concentrate upon the Guru-word considering it as the figure of the Guru who is always with you.

gurmuK Sbd igAwn nyV n dUr hY]

gurumukh shubudh giaan naerr n dhoor hai

Due to the knowledge of the Word, the gurmukh finds the Lord always near and not far off.

Guru Sahib is within you - not in a photo!!!

Please lets stop thinking these man-made pictures which the Gurus themselves oposed will help us with anything. Let's stop misplacing our pyaar and place it on helping the less fortunate - Let's place that Love where Bhagat Puran Singh Ji placed it - serving Humanity - Serving Akaal, serving Kartaar

Guru Sahib ji has made the path soo simple for us -

siqgur scw pwqSwh gurmuK gwfI rwh clµdy]

sathigur sachaa paathashaah guramukh gaaddee raah chala(n)dhae||

The true Guru is the true king and the gurmukhs move on the highway pointed out by Him.

http://www.sikhitothemax.com/page.asp?ShabadID=5671

siqgur scw pwiqSwh gurmuK gwfI rwh clwXw]

sathigur sachaa paathishaah guramukh gaaddee raah chalaayaa||

The true Guru, the real emperor has put the Guru-oriented (gurmukh) on the high road ( of liberation).

http://www.sikhitothemax.com/page.asp?ShabadID=5664

Let's not make this path harder. Guru Sahib has told us not to get into base-less rituals, and instead oppose them - let's not get into the habit of -

"If it's pyaar then it's okay" or "let them do whatever they want to do - it's okay"

Yeah lets let them do what they want to do - but make sure you make them aware that it's against the "Mat" of the Guru and thus manmat.

Let's all get together and meet our SajanRa (beloved, Pyaara)

rwmklI mhlw 5 CMq

<> siqgur pRswid ]

swjnVw myrw swjnVw inkit KloieAVw myrw swjnVw ]

jwnIAVw hir jwnIAVw nYx AloieAVw hir jwnIAVw ]

nYx AloieAw Git Git soieAw Aiq AMimRq ipRA gUVw ]

nwil hovMdw lih n skMdw suAwau n jwxY mUVw ]

mwieAw mid mwqw hoCI bwqw imlxu n jweI Brm DVw ]

khu nwnk gur ibnu nwhI sUJY hir swjnu sB kY inkit KVw ]1]

Raamkalee, Fifth Mehl, Chhant:

One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:

Friend, my Friend - standing so near to me is my Friend!

Beloved, the Lord my Beloved - with my eyes, I have seen the Lord, my Beloved!

With my eyes I have seen Him, sleeping upon the bed within each and every heart; my Beloved is the sweetest ambrosial nectar.

He is with all, but he cannot be found; the fool does not know His taste.

Intoxicated with the wine of Maya, the mortal babbles on about trivial affairs; giving in to the illusion, he cannot meet the Lord.

Says Nanak, without the Guru, he cannot understand the Lord, the Friend who is standing near everyone. ||1||

He is so close to us - he IS US - so let's get in this highway designed by the Guru for us

Bhull chukk maaf

That is definetly the best website i've ever seen. Just have a look -

-- Sikhs want to create a separate theocracy, Khalistan (Land of the Pure), in the Punjab region of India. Many heed the late extremist preacher Jarnail Bhindranwale, who taught his followers that they have a "religious duty to send opponents to hell." Throughout the 1980s they sporadically murdered Hindus to accomplish this goal. In 1984, after Sikh guards riddled prime minister Indira Gandhi with 50 bullets, Hindus went on a rampage that killed 5,000 Sikhs in three days. Mobs dragged Sikhs from homes, stores, buses and trains, chopping and pounding them to death. Some were burned alive; boys were castrated.

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jam...aught/holy.html

Having had heard or read most of the "extremist preacher's" speaches - I didn't find any such statement - though I did hear him encourage Hindus to becomre good Hindus..

Or am I out in the woods?

Chalo, just shows how enutral and secular they are

EDITED-

Hinduism (with its thousands of sects - including the Sikh religion that believes in one God and no caste system - and its most famous "heretical" offshoot Buddhism). All of them boast millions of followers from all walks of life. Who can predict what next seedling of faith will blossom into a full blown religion with "millions of followers from all walks of life?"

How neutral?

A link talking about a geezer who converted to Christianity, and narrates miracles that occured and how he later followed a Swedish man with dodgy views @

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/ed_...erience.html#79

Talk about confused person..

BKI, consists of Shaheeds such as

Bhai Anokh Singh Ji

Bhai Sukhdev Singh Babbar

Bhai Mengha Singh Ji

BHai Dilawar Singh Ji

and many many more.

Please do research on this forum on the jeevan of above mentioned shaheeds- you will be surprised!!!

Thanks for those interesting links. Very nice articles indeed and good arguments against her.

I do agree that Harjot Oberoi and Mc Leod have done a lot of "beRa Gark" for the Sikhs. It is extremely sad that their work is the most well-known in the western world. I do think that we should all make sure we write letters to our local libraries that these authors are anti-Sikh authors and thier books should thus be rmeoved (preferably replaced by Sikhi Socities or associations such as COSS; Jakara etc)

Something interesting I saw -

P. S. Please be advised that in a recent decision by the Supreme Court of India, it has declared the Holy Book of the Sikhs as a Juristic person. Anybody making derogatory statements about the Holy Scripture can be sued. Commonwealth laws can be reciprocal. (See attached.)

Although it it extremely good that anyone making derogator statements about Guru Granth Sahib Ji should be sued without doubt - but is decleaing Guru Sahib a "juristic person" the right way?

This is BOUND to be mis-interpreted by non-Sikhs.

Bhull chukk maaf

It's very nice to hear you want to start wearing Dastar. Very inspiring!

At the same time as you need to think of pleasing yor Guru, to a certain extent you will have to listen to your family's sentiments. I can understand that it's extremely hard, yet not imagen how hard of a situation you must be in.

My advice -

Take it easy. Life isn't logical or rational. No matter how many things they tell you - don't let it discourage you. Keep that flow and flame inside . I suggest you begin by telling them that you want to start covering your kes, i.e. tying a little patka or "bandana" over your hair.... (a lot of Bibiya do that). When your around with your Sangat, ask your friends to tie dastar on you, so you can have a test - a feel of that power that comes with it . So whilst your around friends where it, then go back to Bandana when you're at home. After a few weeks start wearing a dastaar to Gurdwara (once a week or how often you go to Gurdwarey)... And then from then on..

I think the problem is that you surprised them completly, and the human being (all of us) being illogical, and using our primitive brain parts during suprises acted like a typical human being - chaos.

Thus my advice is, take it slowly slowly... Start covering your kes at home, then outside, then ask friends to tie dastar on you while you're with them, and then start going to Gurdware with Dastaar...

Let us know how it goes!

But be very careful. Whenever an argument is about to erupt (I know i shouldn't be the one sayign this, but -) DO NOT RESPOND. Let them flip and give u baseless arguments - that's human nature, by responding you'll make everything worse. Starting thinking of the Shabad that touched you the most <_<

Hope this helps.

Vaheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Vaheguru Ji Ki Fateh

Talk with her seriously once. Do not shout or anything, just calmly explain it to her. If she decides she oesn't want to - let her.

Just as a child not listening to his parents will have to put his hand in the fire before understanding what burning is - the same way she will have to learn it the hard way...

give her an ultimatum

the goth or your gursikhi jeevan

no-one has the right to challange someone else's Gursikhi jeevan.

tell her to take of her dastar if she wants to this kinda stuff

[/quote

And that's going to help in what way?

Should we tell her to remove her identity so that there's not one single trace of her true identity - so that she never comes back?

Good options presented!

A very nice post posted above -

I suggest that you do not tell her parents b/c she is going to hate you... and most likely never talk to you again. Talk to her about it in a serious manner rather than yelling and do it with alone girl time. Also, bring other friends involved, the guy friends are also good and other girl friends. Try to go to the issue more that what she is doing wrong to what could potentially happen to her if she continues. She most likely knows what she is doing, she is not stupid. Tell her do you really see yourself with him in the next couple of years? As a committed sikh, do you think he will respect you as a sikh and possibly become a sikh. How old is she by the way? She sounds like a teenager just experimenting, but I could be wrong. We all learn from our mistakes and god forgives us. Try not being so harsh and bring it to a mature level. Best thing as a friend is try to support her through hard times, mabye she is rebelling in her own right, maybe its something else she is bugged with. Ask her if she is okay, ask her if school is okay, if the family is okay. I know its odd, but I know once i did something that was so out of sikhi, only to rebel secretly to my parents always telling me what to do, and what is right... now i always know i did that to rebel, in the end i realised i was not a good thing to do and also rebelling was a bad excuse. But at the time I was younger, less wiser, less knowledgeable. Also get to know the guy... maybe he is actually a cool guy. I don't know but all i know is what you are doing now is just bickering, and personally if it was me i would just keep on doing it just because you hate it....

sorry if i offended anyone!

worth reading!

If u have been to Hazur Sahib,then you will be totaly> :umm: @ !

What you read is NOTHING   compared to what you will see there <_<

150292[/snapback]

yeah i don't think black/white sikhs are too pleased to see puratan maryada which challenges their mindset, they don't even try to research into things which are done there, so they cannot fathom cosmic interpertation of rituals performed there.

i just love to see how uncomfortable(over parnoid) these black and white sikhs get when they see rituals which challenges their mindset...i usually crack a smile and move on.

150300[/snapback]

Hey Bhaj , what do you think of Amritpal Singh Amrit's analysis of Hazoor Sahib Maryada - is Amritpal Singh also one of those "black and white" Sikhs? ?

To be honest, I havn't had time to look at it yet, however i noticed you posted the same movie at tapoban, whihc brought quite a few responses -

http://www.tapoban.org/phorum/read.php?f=1&i=70502&t=70502

Letter from troubled youth to Bhai Randhir SIngh regarding the Dera -

http://www.tapoban.org/Loving%20Letter%20t...led%20Youth.pdf

The letter speaks for itself.

I suggest everyone to read through everything and not just one side of the coin, and make their own conclusion.

Bhull chukk maaf karni..

Tel: 1-646 338 5996 (Toll-free: 1-888-243-1690)

Fax: 1-810-885-4264

E-mail: unitedsikhs-na@unitedsikhs.org

http://www.unitedsikhs.org/hatecrime/

http://www.sikhcoalition.org/Contact.asp

http://www.sikhcoalition.org/Login.asp?nex...ecrime%2Easp%3F

Aso refer to similar thread on this forum -

http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?showtopic=16849&hl=

Contact United Sikhs or Sikhcoalition

Double post - anyway to delete this?

Yeah NaarSingha is mean to be the lioni who killed Harnakash and saved Prehlaad.

In ISDhillon's story it seems to be a mean monster..... which shows that there's either something dodgy in ISDhillon's story or in Gurbani. Have your pick.

Let's seem how many of us how know our history.

In the below photos are pictures of buildings and doors. Guess who lived/worked in which

Hint: All of them were leaders (not Gurus)

Dirty building in the middle -

Picture A

Building in the middle -

Picture B -

Picture of a door (going where?) -

Picture C-

One Sikh leader lives in two of the above pictures, and in one of the pictures lived a leader in the 1980's who was killed in 1985 (did I make it too easy now ?)

Answe with the name of the picture and the name of the leader. i.e. -

Picture A - XYZ

Picture B - XYZ

Picture C- XYZ

Replace XYZ with a name

Let's see how many can figure it out

All Kirtan in Darbar Sahib is recorded and uploaded on sgpc's website.

Click on the following link -

http://www.sgpc.net/kirtanarc.asp

And choose Febuary 3 2006 from the scroll down menu's, and it will bring up awindows media player with all Shabads sung during the day. If you need it recorded, find te shabad in the mEdia player and use a software such as

"MP3MyMp3" and record it to your computer...

Wow that is great - Sikh phulwari is a great magazine. Very good that they have started posting it on the internet. Amazing seva for those who are fluent in Punjabi, and have time to read it

Namastang - don't you ever learn? -

>>No worries ji, if it was up to these malech khalsa leechars of the fuddu/fussar panthis

Are you a complete <banned word filter activated> ? Young children use this forum. Do you want them asking their parents what a f^ddu is ? In fact try this go to the local Gurdwara and say this word to a few aunties there and see the shithar the uncles give you. There is a limit to being a besharam and you are cutting it mighty close.

Learn to debate without resorting to your foul language.

http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?showtopic=16519&st=144

Veer jeyo, as Kurtas Veer jeyo mentioned in the other thread, we shouldn't resort to swearing and using bad words (such as "fussar panthis"), especially since there are a lot of young people using these forums - is this what we want to show how an ideal gurmukh acts?

Please forgive me if I have offended you and accept this request of a younger brother.

It's not about ancestry.... But about the fact that yes, they do Jado Tuna, Yes they did attempt to Kill Guru Ji, Yes they still have Kartarpuri Beer in their hands - if they sincerely want an apology they shuld hand back kartarpuri beer and get intiated into Khalsa Panth, like the order you have paraphrased.

that doesnt make sense at all, the people who are in dhirmals family didnt try to kill guru ji (the ones that are living now), but in fact it was their predecessors and for all you know some people in that family may have given up jadoo tunaa.

can anyone give us more info on baba vadbhag singh?

but yeah, back to the original question

shouldnt we judge a man/woman on actions and deeds, and not ancestry. A basic Sikh principle?

150249[/snapback]

Thing of it is that if they do not agree with their actions tey would have left Dharmilliye sect to begin with, and then they cannot be refered as dhirmaliye.

It's not about ancestry, it's abut belonging to a sect. It's the same with the Fake Nirankar sect Gurbachan Singh who was a decendant of other fake nirankaris. Should we accept Bachan Singhs decendants, because they are not doing the same things as their father? If they refuse to believe in their beliefs then they can be forgiven. Just likr if I decide to join the nirankaris or dhirmaliyes, I would be included in that group SIkhs are not be associate with, even though i genetically don't have anything to do with dhirmall. Same way if a person from dhirmal sect decids to leave the sect then i se no problem in them being forgiven.

As for Vadhbhag Singh, ISDhillon jeyo you write -

I have been to the dera in hp and its quite a spooky place but at the same time it has helped many people including some of my closest family members

What exactly makes it spooky?

As mentioned, I do not have any knowledge about them, however it seems like, rom toher who have been there that they still are doing kala jado, something you have not denied..

Also in what way exactly have they heped your family members - bhoot bhreets?

Again I'm simply basing on what my own family members have told me (my grand mother was going to go there but for some reason wasn't able to and today thanks God for not allowing her to go - Why? I am not sure), and what other people who have been there have written.

Please do not attack me about Vadhbhag SIngh as I, as mentioned do not know much about him and his dera. However one question that could be raised is - are his decendants (Vadbhag Singh's) Sikhs, i.e following Panthic Maryada without any jado toonas etc - do they all take Khandey Bettey di Pahul??

Bhull chukk maaf

a question which came into mind.....

we all know the akal takhat and its stance on dhirmal (the descendants of the gurus) family

"thou shall not talk to thy dhirmal or anyone related to him"

well not in those words but yeah.

there is of course baba vadbhag singh, who took amrit and hence we can talk to his family as they have officially been pardoned.

we also know why we should not talk to dhirmal and co

they got into chaduu tunaa, and tried to kill the gurus so they could be guru themselves.

but what if the family of dhirmal no longer does tunaa? what if certain members no longer do tunaa?

shouldnt we  judge a man/woman on actions and deeds, and not ancestry. A basic Sikh principle?

what are your views

bhul chukke muaff

150153[/snapback]

It's not about ancestry.... But about the fact that yes, they do Jado Tuna, Yes they did attempt to Kill Guru Ji, Yes they still have Kartarpuri Beer in their hands - if they sincerely want an apology they shuld hand back kartarpuri beer and get intiated into Khalsa Panth, like the order you have paraphrased.

The order does not only say that you shoulnd't associate with them but also that they should be treated like brothers when they have been blessed with Amrit.

As for Vadhbhag SIngh, seems to be a rather dubious character. I do not know much about him, hwoever there has been some several hundred posts long debates on him and his dera (including whether there's still jaado toona there or not) on tapoban.org.. so for more info on Vadbhag singh i recommend you go tapoban.. :TH:

bhull chukk maaf

Vaheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Vaheguru Ji Ki Fateh

While searching "nijjhar" (which brough several usernames of one and the same user), I bounced on some interesting threads.

One of them is about the definition of Khalsa.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa!

Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh!

Let us remind ourselves that preferred meaning of 'Khalsa' is 'property', of God, as in "Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa" rather than "The pure ones." 'Khalsa' means "A piece of property reserved for the highest king."

Collectively calling Guru's Sikhs "the pure ones" does not agree with Guru's teaching either. Guru Ji says, "Kabir I am the worst of all. Everyone else is good. My only friend is he who believes in this" (SGGS 1364 16-17), "I am not good and no one is bad" (SGGS 728:14), "Nanak is where the lowest of the lowly reside, why try to imitate the high? God's grace and mercy is distributed where the lowly ones reside." (SGGS 15:8-9)

Guru's vision is that Khalsa Panth, good or bad, is, humbly, Waheguru's own. "If I made some mistakes, I am still yours, O Lord" (SGGS 761:7). Only with this attitude, can one belong to the Khalsa Panth.

As for the Dohra, please also check my post and S Sahota's post in this thread from last year:

http://www.sikhnet.com/Sikhnet/discussion....CA?OpenDocument

Humbly

Yuktanand Singh

http://www.sikhnet.com/sikhnet/discussion....33;OpenDocument

This word is used in three different forms in Punjab:

1. Khalas = Pure, uncontaminated.

2. Khalaas (pronounced like in British 'class') = Liberated, free.

3. Khalsa = Land that is free from ownership of everyone except the emperor.

Your contention, based on the first meaning, is absolutely correct. I agree that <Ka> means <belongs to> and it would also mean that Khalsa is property of Waheguru. However, I was discussing the preferred meaning. Sorry that I did not elaborate, I did not mean that it was the only meaning.

All this does not change the fact that the word <Khalsa> denotes a special kind of property. Most Sikhs are ignorant of this and they associate <Khalsa> with the most commonly known meaning, i.e. pure. But the word for pure is <Khalas> not <Khalsa>. We simply need to learn.

I do not feel like writing too much today. You already know what I mean. I was trying to say that the notion that Khalsa, a property that belongs only to Waheguru seems to match more with Gurbani and the stance a Khalsa holds, than the notion that "Khlasa is pure." Purity naturally follows, but never precede this essential act, of belonging, to the Guru. Consequently, only when the perfect light shines one can be known as pure (Khalas), otherwise one is impure living with a false sense of purity.

Perhaps it is just a personal preference that I felt like sharing with the Sangat. In fact, another verse, popularly quoted by the Sikhs (?) to show a fighting spirit, "Come to my door with your head on a platter" (SGGS 1412:3) has nothing to do with any fight at all. It simply says, "You must belong to me. First give your head to me, only then you can share the secrets of my heart."

Please continue to correct my mistakes. This is the only way to learn.

http://www.sikhnet.com/sikhnet/discussion....33;OpenDocument

This seems to make total sense as saying the Khalsa are the pure ones - wouldn't that be doing the same as other religions - i.e. being the choosen ones. Guru Sahib has taught us to live wit humility, and not call ourself pure ones. Prior to reading this post I too, thought that the sole meaning of Khalsa means "Pure ones".

Just thought it was interesting and should share it with Sadh Sangat jee. :nihungsmile:

Bhull Chukk maaf

Bhaji's and bhenji's have done a great job refuting raj's statements, however a topic that kept on comign up again is whether the Guru's Bodies were burnt or not?

Does it really matter?

Did Guru Arjan Dev Ji's body (without the jyot - because that was gone) flow in the Ravi?

I shal quote Ms514 veer ji in rajs' other thread-

"Why, I mean, where were the Sikhs to take care of his remains or flowers? What about the bodies of later nine gurus? Since they were attributed with same jyote (guru's spirit) then how come their bodies did not turn into flowers or whatever?"

Because the Sikhs do not have any attachment to the physical remain. If a Sikh body after death was creamted, buried, tossed into a river, it matters not. If the Muslims and Hindus were arguing over such a matter, the Guru would have wanted to resolve the situation amicably. Your version of history states that the Hindus and Muslims took the flowers and performed rights on them. Other versions of history state that Guru Sahib's body simply turned into flowers, thus avioding the problem of burial or cremation altogether, because there was no longer a body to cremate.

The Gurus taught us that the physical isn't important. It's the aatma that matters so whether Guru Ji was cremated, or flowing in the Ravi, or Guru ji's head was separated from their body is completly irrelevant because they were on with God when physically alive, and were one with Vaheguru when the physical died - so where was the difference.

For The Gurus it didn't make any difference whether the physical was alive or not because they were one with God when ohysically alive, and when not physically alive - so where's the difference? The Aatma was already in Parmatma tha it didn't make any difference if they were made to sit on a burning hot plate - did their skin not get peeled? Most likely - did they not feel physical pain? Most likely, orelse how would they teach us to ACCEPT Vaheguru's Hukam f he himself didn't feel the physical pain? It's just about accepting the Hukam. For him it didn't make any difference if he was sitting on a hot plate, as althouhg the body was suffering his jyot was with merged with Parmatma, and therefore he taught us to accept Vahegur's Hukam - by feeling pain but accepting his Hukam (perfect example - Bhai Taru Singh Ji)

My conclusion - The Body never was important, whether it was disposed in one way or another is completly irrelevant as it was the Shabad Parkash insider, it was the jyot tha mattered.

Bhull Chukk maaf

Add more questions to the list!!!

Don't let her go now - question her non-stop -

What is your opinion on the research made by two non-sikhs about the Indian Intelligence peneterating into canada - more specifically about the book Soft Target?

Please Read Soft target

[should keep her talking for some time]

Above posted words are from Sau Sakhi, a controversial text (like many others lol)

Also Guru Sahibans mainly focus on spiritual jeevan. It is doubtful that they are Guru Ji's bachans, therefore be cautioned about this as there are also other things tha are thought to be written by the Gurus, i.e the text supposedly by Guru Nanak Dev ji prophesizing about the mughal rulers etc. We as Sikhs need to stay on our watch as a lot of our literature has been mixed with. Stay cautioned, and don't trust anything blindly without enough research.

Is this not a manifestation of Vaheguru Rather than actually encouraging Sikhs to pick up the Kirpan?