Lion(LK)King

Wicked Warrior, prononciation is no excuse to know veyr little Punjabi.

Noon loon.. OMG same THING!!! Can't believe there's a fight over loon/noon (I'm a Loon vala though lol)

Punjabi has ma different dialogues.

Amritsari Punjabi is the wierdest (me thinks)

Wicked Warrior, just like the Irish have a (slightly lol) different accent from American English... Doesn't mean you're not goign to learn English.

Make an effort and learn to speak any dilect.. I promise you... you'll understand most dialects (although you might laugh at some.....You'll understand most)

Since there's most than one person saying noon, it's probably a dialect thingy.. or some confused western Punjabi not being able to say loon :lol:

MNQK, i think we should first focus on spreading the word and teaching of the Guru (although that would be an amazing way of doing so..no doubt)......these things need to be tackled on a micro level.. for example -

http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?showtopic=18707&hl=

Guru Tegh Bahadur Shaib J's shaheedi first needs to be acknowledged in history books before airports are named after them. I totally support your thought.

Btw if i'm not mistaken the name Indira Gandhi International Airport was given after 84....for her wonderful contributions to what? bloodshed?

Only God and the Indian population know.

This is just my view but i try to follow the rehat maryada set out by Guru Gobind Singh Ji and carried through the Damdami Taksal...

The Damdami Taksal is a Sikh university, which was founded by Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji to impart knowledge of Gurmat onto Sikhs and it has had an unbroken lineage of Jathedars who have led the Taksal throughout Sikh history. The purpose of the Taksal is to educate Sikhs, to teach them the correct pronounciations of Gurbani, to do Katha and Kirtan. This is done by getting students to undergo rigorous studies, meditations and seva.

I'm sure you must have heard of Shaheed Baba Deep Singh Ji... He was the first Jathedar of the Taksal.

I think the rehat at such a chardi kala place where so much bani and seva is done and is led by a Jathedar who imparts the gian he gained from the prevoius Jathedar to the next Jathedar is most likely to follow the rehat maryada of Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji's times.

Think about it, for example, if i wanted to know what your great grandfathers rehat was like, it'd make more sense asking you and not the local gurdwara that he used to go to (committe's probably changed about 10 times since then). Especially if you great grandfather taught it to your father who taught it to you. See what i mean?

See the website for for info and the rehat maryada.

http://www.damdamitaksal.com/

Please forgive me if i have offended anyone with this post...

1- Although the view of Damdami Taksals' on this issue seems to make sense, it is controversial if there really is a straight lineage of the Taksal to Guru ji. It is questionable.. and many scholars are now questioning it.

2- Even if it was founded by Guru ji, it is irrelevant..it should still not be accepted blindly. Check ti's maryada, it prohibits the Sikh from killing a Brahman... (sounds a bit hindu influence to me..... :lol: )

3- Don't blindly accept what anyone has to say. Question Sikh texts (except Mahraj, bani, Bhai Gurdas Ji etc)., customs, practises, norms (synonyms?), organisations, misals, jathebandis, sampardas (synonyms?)... your head of until you're satisfied... just because they have a lineage (which even can be questioned!) doesn't mean you should blindly accept what they say.

Bhull Chukk Maaf

Show them pictures of the previous camps.

www.sikhicamp.org

yeh but i did wats right.....the play was unacceptable jus like those who went to lemington.....just like those who go on the SGGS respect campaigns....

What's unacceptable of spreading the truth?

Arn't many of the UK Gianis moelsters/rapists?

May'be someone thought it's time to bump in some understanding to this thick community which seems to think the solution lies in brushing the problem away..

Well I must say that some of these replies are interesting, but most are trash not worth replying to. Let me pick on a few points -

Firstly the assertion that Naam comes from SGGSJi, namely WaheGuru and for that reason there is no need for a living master. If that is the case then why is the opposite stated in the Sukhmani Sahib - '..Prahbu kirpal kirpa kareh, Naam Nanak Sadhu Sang Mileh'...

A Sadhu is a living master. Oh I have heard the arguments that such words should be read as referring to the Sangat when in plural and God when in Singular. But nobody explains why??

Firstly the quote is not from Sukhmani sahib, but approximately 50 angs before Sukhmani Sahib...This tells us how much knowledge you have of Gurbani

Secondly read the quote you have just quoted and then return. THe Quote is talking about SADH SANGAT, congregation. stop twisting Gurbani.

You want an explaination why? Go to Punjab University, University of Punjab, Punjabi University etc or other linguists and ask then why the Punjabi language is as it is.

As for Darshan Das only taking from the SGGSJi and not having anything of his own, has anybody actually taken the time to read His written material?? No need to reply cuz we all know the answer. His writings contain much in the way of divine knowledge some of which is not to be found outside.

But by the same token, Hindus can surely argue that Sikhs have nothing original of their own - E.g. Singh taken from Vishnu Avatar NarSingh, the word Khalsa first appears in the bani of saint Kabir, SGGSJi substantially made up of scriptures from Non Sikh contributors. THe point is that anyone can be cynical and ignorent for such is the bliss of ignorence.

Again, nonsensicle responses.

1- Nanakian philosophy (Gurmat) is completly different from Hindu mythology.. Just because Guru Ji used the word Singh -lion lol doesn't mean he copied it from an avtar of Vishnu. Jesus Christ, what's next - why was Guru Harkrishan Je's name Harkrishan.. the name probably exists in the vedas... does tha mean he's a vedist?

2- The bani of Bhagat Kabir Ji per say, is not in Guru Sahib.. Only Dhur Ki Bani by Gurdev Pita ji can be found in Maharaj.

nonsensicle arguments.

Please revise.

Listen to the paath on a tape recorder or the comp or something :lol:

Why can't people just agree to disagree?

Whats the point in pointing at each other and calling each other fundamentalists?

Gurbani clearly says there's no point in arguing and debating this issue...

So why we we continue?

To my meat eating /meat supporting sisters & brothers: do what you think is best and according to Gurmat.

To my veggie or veggies supporting sisters and brothers: Use your mat and do what you think is according to Gurmat.

Simple as that. Just leave these issues aside and embrace each other- cause ultimately we're all children of the One :lol:

Admins can you please please please lock this thread now?

Pretty kool. Everyday forumers have the authority to tell who is roop of Guru ji and who is not.

Woulnd't be surprised to hear that Guru Khalsa Panth isn't Guru either....

Agree with Niranjana and Ms514 veerjee.

No point in continuing debating this tedious subject again and again....

Bhull Chukk Maaf

Regardind the nicknames..

Once we start telling gore to call us by nicknames (Pav, Amar, Indi, Nav, Jaije (for the Punjabi boys out there...) etc)...what's the point?

Are we ashamed of our names?

I mean, seriously fair enough most westerns make mistakes pronouncing the names, but as jss jee said.. there's a solution... bring a trick into it!

You name is from a letter brought from Maharaj. Hopefully.. you'd like beutiful names like Simran, Jasjeet, Amarpreet etc (which actually have a meaning that can remind us, what we're hear to do....)

Our names are who we are, or should be. Let's have pride over the name we have been blessed with....

Sorry for brinig this in :lol:

Keep posting.. the way your names are pronounced is jus jokes....

This is just crazy.... bahahahaha

Laughing myself offffff...

JSS, I sat there five minutes testing how it sounded with U instead of as in ur name.. and you're right!

It seems to sound better.

Saajin sounds very dodgy...was it meant to be sajjan as in ਸਜਣ or ਸਾਜਨ ?

Lol @ naming all of your Kids Heera.... (littearlly sat there for five minutes trying testing how 'heera' sound in jamaican..lol )

Perhaps I should get back to preparations for bio exam tomorrow

and i would say punjabi's are really hopeless at pronouncing some english names... this thread is a disgrace to "white" sikhs/non sikhs. I'm going to request this thread be closed.

reported.

Bindy Bhaji, this is no dig at anyone This has nothing to do with white SIkhs or non Sikhs. This is just a thread where our western Sikh sisters and brothers share the funny experiences they've had when their friends/mate/colleages try to pronounced their Punjabi Names. This is not a disgraces to anyone..it's just a way to have a laugh at the way (at times..very funny) ways some people pronouce our names...

Cheer up bro :TH:

Bhull Chukk Maaf

As much as I hate to be the one going against the majority, the question remains: WHAT EVIDENCE IS THERE?

People please. Until there's confirmed information about what has happened no point in running around saying -

"WHA WE GONNA DO ABOUT IT BRUV?"

"HOW DARE THOSE SULLAHS DO THAT...#¤%&/()"

Let's refrain from maligning the entire muslim community for this sole case. Although it is true that some "right wing" muslims are working on converting, this CANNOT and SHOULD NOT be said about the entire community. But when it comes to the extent of SHOOTING - very unique case.... which requires evidence. The fact that BBC has remained lull says a lot.

Let's wait for confirmed information before acting. ANy action should be diplomatic. Sodhi talks about unsheathing the sword. Come on! What has been done on the SIngh's side to stop bibis converting to Islam? Absolutly NOTHING. UK SInghs are atleast as responsible for being so irresponsible. Read every testimony where a Sikh bibi regrets for convert - they all start talking about the UK Singhs... aimi Unsheathing the Sword di gal kari jandey..

And a backlash on the muslim community (which I get the impression, some people on this fourm are hinting...) is NOT the solution.

bhull chukk maaf

So are we suggesting that this women was killed by the Singhs either by burning alive or chopping up (although clearly this seems to be the concurrent theme that everyone seems to point towards including Mark Tully's book Amritsar).

Whether or not it was burning or chopping - is it correct to have done this to the Woman - I find it hard to believe that a Singh or a Sant could condone such actions that too within the precints of the Harimandir Sahib.

Are we absolutely sure that this was done by the Singhs under Sant Jees command and not some sort of propaganda attempt by other elements?

[whatever the outcome - I remain shocked by some of the posters on other forums who seem to be "bigging up" that the Singhs "chopped 'em up proper"].

Mark Tully isn't the most relaible sources in the world (although he was a reported of the BBC)

For example, he reported in his book that Bhai Fauja Singh unsheathed his Kirpan and attacked the Nirankari babab with it, and fire came as a result of THAT, and tha the fire from the Nirankaris was NOT unprovoked...

This seems to go against most other reports..including tha of Ms Tavleen Singh (extremely critical of the 'terrorists'), Kharkoo Singhs, Darshi etc

I wouldn't blindly put my faith on Tully...

Would be pretty nice to have a discussion with him..cause a lot of times he makes alot of unsubstanciable claims...

Jeevan, although you have a point about more emphasis shoud be put on aiding the victims than ONLY holding rememberence days.... BUt I don't see where you're coming from when it comes to Delhi Sikhs coming from low castes.. I seriously doubt anyone would be more motivated to donate if the victims were from high castes..

This is a caste-less issue, let's keep it this way for once..lol.

Akhoza... no disrespect to your grandma.... but ask her what her Punj said during Amritsanchar.

Panthic Rehit Maryada says that during engagement..you should give a Kirpan.....That's pretty wicked..

A real sign of love.. Encourage your parner to keep the committment to Guru ji :lol:

Why? What's the point?

Can you make the body any better or more beutiful than Vaheguru has made it :lol: ?

The Panth Parvan Rehit Maryada says that Kurehit is disrespectiing of kes... I believe they would include dying of dhari in that.. on the other hand.. It can't be worst than shaving.. so WHy don't you start keeping your dhari, but only in beginning dying.. After a time you'll be less worries about your apperance (My Dastar used to be extremely neat when I started tying it.. after a while you jsut get less concerned and just accept it...Now i've got loads of creases lol)

So Start keeping your dharil... and then after a while I'm sure Guru Ji will do Kirpan on you to keep you away from things he doens't want you to aply.... considering he's brough you to the stage where he's asking you to keep his mohar:)

Bhull Chukk Maaf

Try the black thingies called 'suiya' (ask your mum about it...). You attahk the chunni to your hair, and you're done, there's no way it's going off. :lol:

The Sikh Rehit Maryada published by the SGPC overall is well respected. But the entire Panth does not agree with everything within it. Meat, Bibia in Panj Piarey, Nitnem Banis are just some of the issues that the entire Panth does not agree with.

You know who's problem that is? Theirs.

Panth has made a decision. If these jathabandis who disagree disagree, it is their problem not the Panth's. During the time of the Guru's there were Udasis, and other 'sects' who did not follow the teachings of the Guru. Did the Guru go runnign after them? no.

Guru Panth has made decisiosn. It's not that Panth's problems if jathebandis' can't swallow their pride. Again I urge you to read the introduction to the maryada. It lists every single Jathebandi (from people from Buddha Dal, to people liek Randhi SIngh anda Akali Kaur Singh...all with completly differen views) that was present. Including Nirmalas, AKJ-ers (Randhi Singh, Akali Kaur Singh etc), Buddha Dal Niahngs. Everyone was invited to come and create Panthi cohesion. Those who didn't attend simply could give two hoots about Panthic Ekta. The Guru Panth Has made a decision, if you and whatever jathebandi you have affiliation with feels they're above the Panth, they are welcome to do so, just like sects back in the day dissed our Gurus

Of course Guruji is beyond this physical body, I never argued against it. But this doesn’t negate that fact that in their human form they were all males.

And yes, we are all soul-brides. But the fact that God made us in two genders can’t be ignored either.

If you believe that Guru was Gurbani, that is a lame arguement that can be negated. If you however still consider that the Guru was a man with a male's physical body, I don't see any reason to carry on speaking to you about this. My Guru was atma. he never was a man with a physical body. My Guru was part of Parmatma. He was jyot he jyot :wub:

You really do not understanding the gender dimension in the context of this argument. To say gender doesn’t matter ignores the FACT that difference in their roles within the panth existed during Guru maharaj ji’s time.

No there were no differences in the Guru's Darbar. The differences that existed were due to the SOCIAL differences. The fact that Mai Bhag Kaur was able to lead 40 Singhs tells us that Guru Sahib were shattering all gender-specified roles. The Fact that he gave every bibi the right to join the Khalsa, and doe verythign else a male can do tells us he was completly breaking the gender roles. Our Guru was not a sexist

The reason I didn’t comment on the Brahmin cook is because I’ve heard different versions of that story. Besides, Gangu wasn’t the only cook (if he actually was the cook). If Brahmins were cooks for all Guru sahibaan, and all langars at Anadpur sahib during Guru Gobind Singh ji’s time, and Guruji made it a hukam as such, I wouldn’t object.

Do you know who cooked langar for the Gurus prior t Dasmesh Pita? It is historically proved thta Gangu was a cook in Guru's langar.

And where has Guru ji done Hukam that only males can be part of Panj? The only rehitnama that is provided is that of Desa Singh who also says that the role of the Khalsa is to protect Cows and Bahmans :lol: - Very reliable reference..

Until we realise that Guru Sahib was beyond gender, and as a matter of fact were NOT males, were NOT human bodies with male's private parts, and were only jyot saroop, bani, Gurbani, there's no point in dicussing this. Once we realise that Guru said was only Bani, Jyot saroop, we will realise that the body is only a corpse no matter which gender. The Jyot or parmatma, the bani can also recide in females, since Guru Sahib did not make any distinction between the two. Historical references tell us why this did not happen back in the day too such a large extent.

Good posts MKLQ Veeray

I’ll respond to LK since he actually gave a decent reply.

1. I agree with the Guru Khalsa Panth principle. But it’s very difficult to implement. At the moment SGPC makes itself look like the Panth, but clearly is not. It’s very difficult to get every jathebandi to agree to a point, so this might be difficult. But heck, if it worked back in the day, maybe it can work once again.

Apart from printing and publishing the Panth Parvan Sikh Rehit Maryada, the SGPC has NOTHING to do with the maryada. That is a common misconception put in by people not seeking cohesion in Panth.

Read what the maryada says -

What is more, some of the greatest Sikh scholars and savants of all times contributed to it and deliberated on its contents. So this work should take precedence on any sectional beliefs and preferences. In a wider context, the contents of the Reht Maryada should be taken as the final word as to the matters they deal with. That will foster panthic cohesion.

And True, the Maryada has been penned by great scholars and pious people of the Panth. Including the such of Kahn Singh Nabha who has been respected by ALL Jathebandis (AKJ, Akal Thakhat, Taksalis all respect him, as well as Bhai Vir singh and other mahan hastis)

Please read the introduction to the Maryada where it lists name of all the contributors of the maryada.

http://sgpc.net/sikhism/introduction.html

They did not ignore anyone. If someone from the street had something to say they could send letters and have their opinion discussed by the mahan hastis who gathered to creat panthic cohesion.

It worked back in the day because everyone was ready to sit together. It will worka gain once we leave superflous jathebandi labels and think about the PANTHIC and SIKH cause rather than Taksali, Akhand Kirtani, Nanaksari cause.

2. I think you can’t simply ignore the fact that all Guru sahibaan were males. Saying they were above gender is a cop out in the context of this argument. I’m not arguing that Guru ji didn’t preach equality, all I’m saying is we need to understand their view on equality as opposed to what we’ve been taught at school or through the media.

Please reread my post in this matter. I don't wish to repeat myself except to say that to say that the Guru's were all males is just undermining his teachings since Guru never was a body with a man's private part but GURBANI. Wasn't it Bani Guru Guru Hai bani? Arn't we all jyot sarop? Soul-brides? The Guru never was a man. The Guru was bani. Akal.

3. You’re not giving a very good response about women not being part of Khalsa fauj in large numbers, or even present at all. Again, if Guruji felt that it was a place for women to be, he would have instructed them as such. Just like Guru sahib made Sikh women missionaries, he could have given other responsibilities to them as well. Fact is Guru maharaj did not give Gurgadhi to any women, nor were women in the khalsa fauj. These are positions which are better suited for males, just like the seva of Panj Piraey is better suited for males.

No you simply missed my point. You speak of missionaries. Female missionaries too were slightly less than male ones. Does that mean that Guru ji purposly had more male missionaries than females just because of their gender? Just because females were less numbered in the Khalsa Fauj does't mean anything. i have already explained the historical context of this, which you have completly ignore. You have not answered about why Guru ji had bahman cook - would this mean that a Baahmanshould cook meals for Guru ka Langar, and all other should be eating and not cooking? By your logic that is the case.

4. Again, I don’t know the reasoning behind women not being allowed to do kirtan at Darbar sahib. I seriously don’t want to take a stance without knowing the historical reasons for this, if any exist.

I feel I’m repeating myself, and the replies also feel repetitive. I’m not going to keep arguing this with the same argument, so I’ll just leave it at this.

No hard feelings,

Gufateh.

Some of us have simply missed the point of Sikhi, something that is beyond gender and physical body parts. Until we realise that Punj and the Guru's were nothing physical, and were wholly spiritual - bani, there is no point in discussing these issues. Guru never was a man with a males physical body. Guru ke Singhs (Punj) never were human beings with male body parts - they were jyot saroop. They were Bani. They WERE Gurbani. The had the parkash of Parmatma inside themselves :lol:

Bhull Chukk Maaf

Vaheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Vaheguru Ji Ki Fateh

WJKK WJKF

baljit kaur was shindas girlfreind and. and Lion King on what page of Darshis book is there a reference to baljits body being chopped up? as on page 82 when it talks of Bhai Sodhis shaheedi all it says is " within 24 hours the Sikh youths took revenge for his (Sodhi's) killing by exterminating shinda, baljit kaur and (malik su) bhatia"

Please reread my previous post

When speaking to Darshi he confirms that the Singhs killed her. I can't remember if he spoke about chopping off body parts or not. I believe i did, but I'm not sure................When speaking to Darshi he confirms that the Singhs killed her. I can't remember if he spoke about chopping off body parts or not. I believe i did, but I'm not sure.

After reading about this I lost a lot of respect for Bhai Jarnail singh Bhindranwale, since a person writing a PRO-bhindranwale book has said this. I've still got my doubts and speculations and havn't made by decision on this. It is possible to look into this while some of the people from 84 are still alive..

Darrshi only mentioend her elimination on page 82, he has not mentieond the chopping up. When I personally spoke to him he told me about the chopping up part (his number can be found in the new edition of his book, published by Chattar Singh Jeevan Singh - call him and personally ask him if you don't believe me).

I still beleive it needs to be confirmed by some primary sources, since Darshi wasn't one of the militants in Guru Nanak Nivas, he probably doesn't know everything. On the other hand, he reportedly had good relations with the sant, and had met him many times.

Bhull Chukk Maaf

ghumangee brings some very valid points. Although i didn't udnerstand everything (bhull chukk maaf) i did understand the part about Sants. I do agree with you. I havn't understood what you have to say about Bibiya in Punj...

Bhenji,

I’m sure someone can get the audio, but it’s very well known about the position of Santji, as well as the Taksal in general. For that matter, all great Gursikhs of the Panth have followed this maryada of Panj Singhs in Panj Piarey. Baba Attar Singh ji, Baba Gurbachan Singh ji Bhinderawale are just two names that come to the top of my head.

You are right. I should have the copy somewhere. Bhindranwale's stance on this subject is wellknown.

On the otherhand I wonder if thesse Gurmukh (no matter how spiritually elivated) can be compared to Guru khalsa Panth. Guru Gobind SIngh Ji (according to Sainpat) gave Guru gaddi ti Guru Granth Sahib Ji and Guru Khalsa Panth. If Guru Khalsa Panth makes a decision on Something, no-one on this planet, no matter how spiritually elivated, cannot go against that hukam.

It was only when the western idea of equality became introduced into the panth via the British and Western education that some Sikhs started questioning some of our traditional Sikhi practices.

As far as I'm concerned, Pritham Guru Ji, Guru Nanak Dev Ji already introduced the concept of equality when he said -

ਭੰਡਿ ਜੰਮੀਐ ਭੰਡਿ ਨਿੰਮੀਐ ਭੰਡਿ ਮੰਗਣੁ ਵੀਆਹੁ ॥

ਭੰਡਹੁ ਹੋਵੈ ਦੋਸਤੀ ਭੰਡਹੁ ਚਲੈ ਰਾਹੁ ॥

ਭੰਡੁ ਮੁਆ ਭੰਡੁ ਭਾਲੀਐ ਭੰਡਿ ਹੋਵੈ ਬੰਧਾਨੁ ॥

ਸੋ ਕਿਉ ਮੰਦਾ ਆਖੀਐ ਜਿਤੁ ਜੰਮਹਿ ਰਾਜਾਨ ॥

ਭੰਡਹੁ ਹੀ ਭੰਡੁ ਊਪਜੈ ਭੰਡੈ ਬਾਝੁ ਨ ਕੋਇ ॥

From woman, man is born; within woman, man is conceived; to woman he is engaged and married.

Woman becomes his friend; through woman, the future generations come.

When his woman dies, he seeks another woman; to woman he is bound.

So why call her bad? From her, kings are born.

From woman, woman is born; without woman, there would be no one at all.

http://www.sikhitothemax.com/Page.asp?Sour...D=1748&Format=2

I was speaking about Guru Nanak Dev Ji's pihlosophy of Equality to someone the other day and she goes: "wow the Guru already spoke about womens rights and equality at a time when they were rightless in the west?"

Even Gorey are impressed by the revolutionary message of our Gurus. Please stop distorting it just ebcause someone who was mistaken about a issue (no doutb much respected, but mistaken=...goes agian the Guru.

IF you look closely at our history, you will notice the differences existing between men and women in the Panth. All of our Guru sahibaan were males. The Khalsa Fauj was by and large males only, with few exceptions such as when Mai Bhag Kaur ji led the 40 Singhs back into battle.

Even though there were very pious and Bhramgyani Bibia within the Panth uring Guruji’s time, only males were given Gurgadhi. Even Mata Sahib Kaur did not become Guru after Guru Gobind Singh ji maharaj.

Similiarly, Guruji’s maryada of only tyar bar tyar Singhs, with no physical handicaps, being allowed to serve in the Panj Piarey was and is practiced. This tradition has continued on through the traditional seena-baseena sikhya that Gursikhs have passed on to their students.

I'm not sure how much of the philosophy of Guru Nanak Dev ji you are aware of.

Guru Nanak Dev Ji did not look at his followers in terms of caste, gender or other superflous labels (no matter how much McLeodians try to claim that). The fact that the Guru Sahibs were all males is completly irrelevant. So what? are you trying to say that if Bhai Lehna was a Bibi Guru ji would not have given 'her' Gurugaddi?

Are you trying to tell me that Guru Tegh Bahadur Sahib wouldn't give Gurgaddi to Dasmesh Pita jee if he was a bibi? Reject your Guru then, cause Guru Ji's neither. Guru ji never was a man or a women. Guru ji's body was never the Guru. It always was Shabad Guru. Remember? Bani Guru Guru hai bani?

Can that Parkash of Parmatma, that Parkash of Bani not be ina bibi? can that prakash of Gurbani/Parmatma only occur in a male because he ahs a <admin-profanity filter activated>? Give me a break. You are not only undermining the Gurus, but are distorting his message at thesame time.

When it comes to the Khalsa Fauj, you are right. Vast majority of the Khalsa Fauj was males. Again, your point being? The cook in Guru Ji's darbar was a brahmin? So what. Does tha mean that a Sikh should only eat from the hands of Brahmans? Same way, Most of Khalsa Fauj was males just because of society at the time. The fact that women were suppressed at the time... cannot be denied. Women in Punjab (and Punjabi diaspora) are STILL suppressed. Can you seriously say that even today with the western on about equality ho ha, women are equal to men in the PUNJABI population? No. If you're out after 6 you're mostly getting calls from you parents every 10 minutes asking where you are. Do Punjabi men get these phone calls? No.

Face is Punjabis are one of the most sexistic people on this planet. Back in the time Women were suppressed. The fact that we had the likes of Mai Bhago tells us very much.

Times were Changing. Guru Sahib had brought a change. Guru Amardas ji banned sati. Guru Amardas ji made females "missionaries". I'm sure they too ahd their period? OMG that's terrible for you isn't it? Our Gurus were so revolutionary. They broke every norm in the society. Openly told everyone that menstruations were all part of Vahegur's Hukam and is NOT anything dirty. It is not anything to be shy about, because Vaheguru himself made it that way. Anyone daring to mention period as an anti-female subejct is just retarded and has no knowledge of Gurmat (I'm speaking about those who use priods as an excuse). Our Gurus were soo modern... They even spoke about it and openly told everyoe there's no such thing as impurity. The Impurity is in being separated from Vaheguru. Unforunatly 'Sikh' men are walking on the path of Punjabi men. A Sikh bibi SHOULD be able to speak to her brother/male cousin/friend about these issues cause these are not things to be shy about. It's natural and that's the way Vaheguru made it. (sorry for divirting)

btw, I never commented on Kirtan at Darbar Sahib, so no need to bring that up. I don’t know enough on this issue to comment.

This was most likely brought up from the mahants who raped innocent women in Darbar Sahib and other shrines. There is no excuse why Bibis can't do kirtan today.

Let’s not bring up the equality card each time we need to prove a point. Guruji’s marayda is above our worldly benchmarks as to what equality is and what it isn’t. Someone could very easily argue that Sikhi is sexist because none of the Guru sahibaan were females and there are no female contributors to SGGS.

No that is an invalid argument, since the Gurus were beyond gender and physical aspects. Anyone with very very slightly knowedge of Gurmat can bring up issues as Guru Sahibs not being females and no female contributors to Maharaj. Guru Sahib had a parameter fixed. He wasn't going to change it just because no females composing something wasn't within those parameters. the Argument is absurd, and anyone with knowledge of Gurmat would not bring up such an abusrd argument. the Bhagats, Gurus, Sikhs, bhatts were all beyond gender and the physical. It was only parmatma. Mool. They had released their mool. Remember - Man too jyot saroop hai apna mool Pachan... They weren't males. They were all wifes of the one

Just a question out of curiosity, if we were able to convincingly find out if women can be in the Panj, would all of you who now say that “Guru ji wouldn’t discriminate” accuse Guruji of being sexist if the answer was that Panj piarey can only be males? Or would you all accept it as hukam and not object?

I would question until he could give me a very satisfying answer. I have all right in the world to question him. He is my bapu. I am his son. He is my peh...He wouldn't object me questioning him. I'm sure he'd be happy me removing doubt from my mind. And you never know.. if it's a test from the Guru.... wanting you to question him..just like his Khalsa did at his time :lol: (not in any way comparing myself to the Khalsa at the time...)

Bhull Chukk Maaf Karni jee

Niranjana jee, I've never heard of Sodhi and Baljit having a relationship.. this is the first time I'm hearing that.

Baljit Kaur was eliminated was because she was, along with her husband Surinder Singh Chhinda (according to Darshi) ordered to go and shoot Bhindranwale by Gurcharan Singh (a "notorious communist") who was employed by Longowal as his secretary. He writes that 13th April when they were infront of him "neither of the two mustered courage to open fire on the sant although they were sitting in front of him armed with revolvers. However, both these hired assassins did succeed in murdering Surinder Singh Sodhi, a right hand manf and faithful supported of Sant Bhindranwale on 14th April 1984 in the Sindhi Hotel where had had been treacherously lured by them to go on the pretext of taking tea there." (74)

Although I can understand the elimination..(not saying i agree with it) since the reason she was elimnated was that they could not expect any justice from the law or any court. On the other hand to chop her into pieces (which I'm almost 90% sure Darshi confirmed..), is terrible and cannot in any way be justified by Gurmat.

Then again considering the huge amount of propaganda spread, it is posible that this too was done to damage their name. Nothing can be said. Since some of the Kharkoos of the time are still alive it is vital to get some of these contrversies answered...untill it's too late..

Great response by Khalsa4ever veer jee.

Although there are many maryadas, you need to remember that yo NEED to follow the one by Akal Thakhat (published by SGPC). That is the minimum. If you want to wear dhumalley and cholley 24/7, that's your choice, but that is not a minimum requirement.

You've got the minimum of three banis in the morning. If you want to add another 8 banis in the morning thats very good. Just keep increasing yourself, but remember ther's a minimum, and if you don't have time to do an extra 8 banis, that is okay :lol:

Lol never heard of pirates of books.

Kurtas, My Parents lived very close to Patel chaunk thingy.. a few minutes walk from Balmiki gate.

There's a 'kesta vala bazar' (with hardcore Punjabi accent) which has pretty much every casette released in India. I don't remember the exact name, but ask someone local where you can get 'kesta', and they'll tell you... alternatively, I can find out for you (if it's life and death situation )

Well I was looking for some books by Ram Narayan Kumar, and a local resident told me to not talk loud about 84 issues in Delhi (I was just saying I wanted a book, and that too in a normal tone, not even loud!) :wub: ..you're probably right, i don't know much about Delhi. No I havn't been to Duriya Ganj, will make sure to visit it next time I'm around the area :lol:

Hey I thought Walls was safe, but again, thanks for the warning (this thread is useful for me too, since I might be going soon )

Thanks for the recommendation - Loperamide

Will probably come handy

You ever been to Sant Pagri House. Every type and colour of dastaar you could ever want.

Kest vala bazzar Will have to go there next time.

Avoid all ice creams. You ever been to that famous ice cream place run by the really fat blokes ? It is well known in jalandhar. They used to have pictures of themselves with bollywood heroes on the walls. The special included ice cream and seymia (desi speghetti)

All the locals tend to talk bobbins. I remember when I was over in 1993. I know this bloke in Punjab Police as he is sort of related. He told me it was dangerous to take a map of Punjab out of India as the security people at the aiport would get me. He was very serious. So I bought 2 and carried them in my hand luggage.

It is also fun watching all the NRI getting hassled by the beggars outside bimpy (wimpy). I just swap my Reebok for those white Action boots (cheap nasty desi trainers that all the apne use to wear with trousers at weddings in the early 90s). The beggers take one look at the Action trainers and avoid coming near me.

Patel Chounk......that reminds me never you the Sant Taxi people near the Ravidas Chounk. They are very unreliable.

Also if you go anywhere and they offer you tap water run a mile. I usually have lots of time to mess around and on my last trip I got on the roof to look in one of those plastic water tanks (tankia) they top up for water. The thing was full of debris. I would think twice about washing in the stuff let alone drinking it.

Enjoy your trip and give us a write up when you come back.

lol, Kurats you must have lots of free time running on the kotha checking the tenki. ehmi..

It's not kesta vala bazaar, but they'll understand, once you get to jallandhar.

never head of Sant pagri house. I go tehal singh and sons, just beside mai hira g8.

can't member, i used to avoid eating out at all last i was there so havn't eat out for two years now (in india lol).. but there sure are some really good restaurants in jullundhur

Even some of the cheap burnt up ones have good food. Uncle took me to all sorts of places, from dolfin hotel (which to my horror was build by or in memory of beanta the cheif minister of punjab @ ), lucky taba, heritage, haveli to small dodgy ones like vijay taba (the small dodgy one had the best paneer ever!!!)

Lol yeah around wimpy theres loads of beggar, probably because they know that NRIs go there since theres so many travel agents around there. I'll buy a cheap pair there then too lol.

Will keep the sant taxi in mind. lol. Is that the guy who stands outside the hospital.can't remember it's name.. lol...

Ok on a more serious note, any recommendations on tabla teacher in Amritsar? Want to learn both hardcore raag (to play with string instrument) and the UK style (random. Not AKj style lol....just normal casual....lol)