Lion(LK)King

Bhenji, you are a descendant of Mai Bhag Kaur. Bhenji, you're a descendent of Mata Sahib Kaur.

This is an issue between you and your mum.

You've got the optinion of listening to your mum, or if you strongly feel that you want to become an Amritdhari, then you'd have to tell her that this is something you want to do, and if you don't want to remove them, it shoudl be your choice. It is after all, your appearance she's worried about. Speak to your parents about it. Don't just brush it asaid. Sit down for an hour or two and explain to her in a calm manner how this is something you're committed to doing.

Meanwhile keep on doing ardaas:)

Stay in Chardikala, daughter of Mata Sahib Kaur and descedant of Mai Bhag Kaur, and the countless Matava in mir manu's jail.

Guru ang Sang

Akal Warrior, I'm sorry to say you've got the wrong attitude.

It is completly understable that young Kaurs don't want to tell anyone. Whether we like it or not, we're froma Punjabi culture. You know how parents are: 'Loki ki kain ge?'

They have all the right in the world to come as anonymous persons who want advise from their Sikh Sisters and brother.

I agree that they should stand up and say, but this does not mean that they reveal their name and everything on a public forum.

Bhenjis who have been subjected to this behaviour of the so-called gianis, please email Pheena Bhaji personally, or PM him if you feel that you cannot reveal above infor (answers to ques) on this forum.

Happy belated birthday S1ngh.

:lol:

:HP:

A.R Darshi whose pro-Bhindranwale book - 'The Gallant Defender' - he writes that she was killed (never heard it was Sodhi's girlfriend. According to darshi that it was Baljit Kaur who killed him, who is Gurcahran Singh (some communist person who became longowal's assistant) wife).

When speaking to Darshi he confirms that the Singhs killed her. I can't remember if he spoke about chopping off body parts or not. I believe i did, but I'm not sure.

After reading about this I lost a lot of respect for Bhai Jarnail singh Bhindranwale, since a person writing a PRO-bhindranwale book has said this. I've still got my doubts and speculations and havn't made by decision on this. It is possible to look into this while some of the people from 84 are still alive..

Bhull Chukk Maaf

Great responses so far.

Why do hardly any bibis answer in these threads?

It's your right....

Vaheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Vaheguru Ji Ki Fateh

You have made my day Pheena ji.

WHilst everyone else has been running amok about this issue, you have seriously sought a solution.

May Guru Ji keep you, and any Organisation that might be able to help with thier case, in Chardikala and keep you in Guru Ji's 'Sharan'.

Hopefully this issue will be resolved soon. It is such a shame that bibiya have to think twice before going to the Gurdwara which is meant to serve all humanity, through spiritual as well as physical food. A place where when the Sikhs' psyche is in anxiety, she can turn and listen to Kirtan paath....

It is so true that it is typical Punjabi mentality to brush aside problems such as these, existing within our community.

Guru ji tuhanu Chardikala 'ch Rekhey, and let's pray this problem gets solved soon. :lol:

Vaheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Vaheguru Ji Ki Fateh

Lol never heard of pirates of books.

Kurtas, My Parents lived very close to Patel chaunk thingy.. a few minutes walk from Balmiki gate.

There's a 'kesta vala bazar' (with hardcore Punjabi accent) which has pretty much every casette released in India. I don't remember the exact name, but ask someone local where you can get 'kesta', and they'll tell you... alternatively, I can find out for you (if it's life and death situation )

Well I was looking for some books by Ram Narayan Kumar, and a local resident told me to not talk loud about 84 issues in Delhi (I was just saying I wanted a book, and that too in a normal tone, not even loud!) :wub: ..you're probably right, i don't know much about Delhi. No I havn't been to Duriya Ganj, will make sure to visit it next time I'm around the area :lol:

Hey I thought Walls was safe, but again, thanks for the warning (this thread is useful for me too, since I might be going soon )

Thanks for the recommendation - Loperamide

Will probably come handy

Parwinder Singh, most books have a m.r.p in the first few pages or the last page (max retail price).

Also, Now that Kurtas mentioend Mai Hira Gate (2 mins from my place), I suggest you go to 'Sunder Book Depot', which has most book you'll look for, otherwise he orders them from wherever (Singhbrothers, Chattar Singh Jeevan Singh etc etc)

Universal book shop did't have the book I wanted (was looking for boks on 84, found books like, the one by Brar, and the one with the forward by KP Gill... Bought both, because I needed a bias version sice I was writing a report...)

So you might not find the best books there.

Delhi doesn't have as much books on Sikhi as they do in Amritsar, in my observations. Don't go to Chattar Singh Jeevan Singh, due to the beadbi issue, if you're in Amritsar go Singhbrothers (singhbrothers.com) or Khalsa brothers which are just right beside CSJS bookshop.

If you got stomach problems.. take the magical 'pili goli'. It is miraculous. Does wonders.

Knight Singh,

1 - From some persons I know who personally are part of the Buddha Dal, and have spoken themselves to 'senious nihangs' of Buddha Dal, they do not know him (I have no way to assess what they're saying, but that is what I've been told)

2- Nihal singh is, as far as I' aware, jathedar of harianvela. My mothers chacha jee has good contacts with him and mets him every month, and on his visit to UK a few years ago, we went and personally met him. I was not impressed with some of his behaviours.

I do not need to read anything on any website, I have seen enough in real life. Sorry to disappoint you.

Also go to Punjab, and ask anyone what he said on TV about the movement after being tortured by the police.

Bhull Chukk Maaf

Singh,

1 - You have listed a bunch of things that Women are in society 'responsible' for doing? And?

Does that mean that Sikhi says that's okay?

You brought up completly irrelevent subjects, that have no meaning in this thread. Let me ask you, by posing above questions are you trying to hint that Sikhi and Vaheguru did not believe in equality?

2 - Mkhalsa has already answered your Singh Singhnee theory before in one of his posts.

So what if it says Singh? Arent all of Guru Sahib's children lions?

Panch Singh, Amrit jo devey. Now let me ask you, in the rehitnamey, whenever they refer to Sikh BIBIYA specifically, and only BIBIYA? They don't. Look at every single rehitnama, they'll (99.9% of the time) be unisex. No distinction is made between the genders, thus a rehitnama pointed towards women is also pointed towards men. THe Rehit is the same.

If women be in Panj Pyare then it becomes Panj Pyareean.

is it not practice to call gursikhs in the "they" form. such as Baba Jarnail Singh Jee Bhindra Valae, not Bhindra Vala.. same for singhnee not valee but valae... thus it would still be punj pyarae.

Also, If women are in the Khalsa, why aren’t they called Khalsee? We are all Khalsa, regardless of gender.

Can you say that a soul has a gender?

As for altering Guru Sahib hukam, I think there's no-one other than those saying bibiya can't be part of Panj that are going against the Hukam of the Guru Since Guru Sahib said on the Vaisakhi day :

"Women shall be equal to men in EVERY way. No Purdah (veil) for them any more, nor the burning alive of the widow on the yre of her spouse. He who kills his daughter, the Khalsa shall not deal with him" (Quoted from Sangat Singhs ' The Sikhs in Hitory')

EVERY SINGLE ASPECT. Who is changing Guru Ji's hukam?

Also Many rehitnamas have been modified and bahmanized, some saying that one shuld serve Bahmans and to protect cows (Desa Singh)

Now lets quote what a Singh wrote in response to your post:

Author: Singh

Date: 05-05-06 13:20

Jaskeerth-Gyan Singh,

Your argument supplied on the link is flawed as Desa Singh Rehatnama contains many questionable lines which go against Gurmat. For example, the consumption of opium/bhang is condoned, and only 2 Bania are mentioned for Nitnem. It is also stated alcohol is acceptable before battle.

Furthermore as you consider yourself a "Taksali Singh", it is unsuprising you have this view since the Taksal Rehat Maryada states that a wife must treat her husband as if he is God. With these types of views I am not sure how valid the stance of Taksal thus is on this issue.

Bhull Chukk Maaf

Knite Singh, Niddar has yet to prove that he belongs to Buddha Dal. Merely saying that you belong to a Nihung Jathebandi doens't make you belong to it. I know a Singh who consulted Santa Singh about Niddar, who said he didn't have a clue about who NIddar is. No the question arises: a person who had learned Shastervidya, and beena Buddha Dal Nihang for several years is already forgotten by Santa Singh?

As for Nihal Singh, I personally, from experience, wouldn't describe him as an ideal Nihang.

What Simmal Tree jee says is true, there are the fake ones, and there are the real ones. Watch out for the fake ones :lol:

Bhull Chukk Maaf

Just go there and speak to any older person you see there regarding your intentions to stay there and learn, and they'll get you sorted. A friend of mine went with his mum to Mehta and spoke to someone older, who referred to someone else who was really friendly and told him everything he needs to know.

Don't worry SIngh, jsut go there and speak to someone there, and they'll get you sorted :lol:

Go to calcutta music store in Jallandhar, they got some good stuff :lol:

Agree. Someone studying anthropology can do a study of the Sudan people like Bibi Cynthia did on Sikhs..

Any suggestiosn on what else could be done?

Gurumaneyo Granth, Bhaji/bhenji, I'm happy to hear that someone atleast READ the hukamnama with an open mind (I Hope), since others on this forum can't provide reference, and then demand reference from others but never bother to show up after that :lol:

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

I just read the Hukumnama by Akaal Takhath Sahib posted by LionKing Sahib. Thanks for providing such a reference, rather than people normally saying Dhaarnas are Anti-Panthic.

However, I feel that this Hukumnama does not necessarily apply to Dhaarnas. Paragraph 2, which I believe is the most relevant point, if translated says:

"Doing Keertan according to Gur-Maryada, Kachi Bani and Filmee Tunes will not be sung. Full concentration shall be afforded to the proper pronunciation of Gurbani."

Without getting to much into a interpretative debate, the whole basis on which those that are ambivalent or pro parchaar by Dhaarnas is that they say Dhaarna is not Bani, thus how can it even be Kachi Bani? If it is not Kachi Bani, then how can a Hukumnama on Kachi Bani apply to it? The answer depends solely on the definition of Kachi Bani, which is so contested.

Veer jeeyo, although those who do Dharna also say that there is no such things as Kachi Bani. no bani can be kachi, but according to Mahan Kosh, Bani means 'composition'(rachna) hence GURBANI - composition of the Guru.

What is Guru Amardas Ji on about in Anand Sahib if there's no kachi bani....

Further, this Hukumnama is very general. If you read the context in which it was issued, it was over a general discussion by some Ragis that came to Akal Takhat. According to this Hukumnama, even doing non-Raag Keertan is contrary to this Hukumnama, since Gur-Maryada in Keertan, it can be argued, is to do Keertan only in Raags. On this interpretation, most Keertanis would be Tankhaiyas.

1- This shabad speaks about filmy tuna. Nowhere does it mention Raag.

2- Although I do acknowledge that ideally, Kirtan should be done in Raag only, no-one would go to the extent of saying anyoen doing Kirtna outside Raag si a tankhaiya, butanyoen purposly doing it infilmy tuna IS. PURPOSLY

I could go on to create a case that this Hukumnama does not apply to Dhaarnas, but this is just futile.

There have been many Hukumnamas which are a lot more specific to outlaw certain actions, behaviour or persons. If Parchaar by Dhaarnas is to be banned, I think such a specific Hukumnama would be required.

Ranjit Singh has even said himself on many occasions, if you want me to stop singing Dhaarnas, present a petition to Akaal Takhat on the specific matter of Dhaarnas, and I shall follow whatever is decided.

which Ranjit Singh are we speaking about now Jathedar or dharna valey ?

I disagree with you. They have banned Kachi Bani, that is enough. They issue a hukamnama about dharna, someone will come up with something new tomorrow. Rehit Maryada is clear about what Bani should/could be read in Guru Ji's hazoori. Outside hazoori I don't mind if people want to rap dharmic geet, as that too can be nice for some people, but in Hazoori, Sikh Rehit Maryada is clear on what is Bani, naturally anything not falling in those catagories would be kachi bani

In relation to the point made by Sher_Panjabi, Ranjit Singh does encourage Bibiyaan to wear Dastaars/Keskis, but it is not compulsory since it is not compulsory in Akal Takhat Maryada. Similarly, he asks people to do Sampooran Rehiraas (i.e., as Damdami Taksaal, Nanaksar, Nihangs, Rara Sahib, etc. do), but this is not compulsory as Akal Takhat Maryada does not make it compulsory.

Bhul Chuk Maaf

Waheguroo

Massive respect to him for doing that :wub:

Let's hope Ranjit SIngh decides to follow the rest of the things that Akal Thakhat say, for example regarding which 'Bani' (composition) is to be read in Guru Ji's Darbar, and the rest is natrually not to be read :wub:

Massive respect for his stand on Dastar/keski and Rehraas (making it optional )

Kurtas' new favourite word: Fussar panthi. lol

Keep up with yo dodgy pics Kurtas :TH:

Got the exact same email.

Tavparsad Singh, i think it's more efficient to ring them in, because I sent it, and thirty seconds later I've got a response. Either Ms Swindon is extremely quick in copying the template and sending it with "dear your first name"

Or they've simply installed a script that will send that response automatically if the mail contains words liek 'complaint' or sometihng the above two letters have in common.

Very fishy.

Commandments from sri Guru Granth Sahib JI:

Ang (page) 1103

You kill animals (living beings) and call it a righteous action (halal). Tell me brother what do you call an unrighteous action?

You call yourself the most excellent sage (person of great wisdom) then who do you call a butcher?

Ang (page) 140

If ones clothes are stained with blood, the garment becomes polluted, those who consume blood in the form of flesh (meat) how can their conscious be pure?

Ang723

The world eats dead carcasses, living by neglect and greed like goblins, or a beast, they kill and eat forbidden carcasses of meat. So control your urges or else you will be seized by the lord and thrown into the torture of hell.

Vaheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Vaheguru Ji Ki Fateh

The discussion on meat is completly fruitless for me. I have no interest in discussing if emat is okay or not, however the quotes above do not speak about eating meat. Again I am not saying you can eat meat, I'm sayign the tuks of Gurbani have been misinterpreted.

Ang (page) 140

If ones clothes are stained with blood, the garment becomes polluted, those who consume blood in the form of flesh (meat) how can their conscious be pure?

This has nothing to do with meat. Have you purposly mistranslated the pangtee to suit you.

Here is STTMs translation -

Shalok, First Mehl: If one's clothes are stained with blood, the garment becomes polluted. Those who suck the blood of human beings-how can their consciousness be pure? O Nanak, chant the Name of God, with heart-felt devotion. Everything else is just a pompous worldly show, and the practice of false deeds. ||1||

blood of HUMAN BEINGS. What does that mean? This is the same thing as the Sakhi of Guru Nanak Dev Ji pouring blood out of one, and milk out of one roti. This Shabad is talking about 'haram di kamay', i.e. having an inhonest income and using other people.

ਅਰਥ: ਜੇ ਜਾਮੇ ਨੂੰ ਲਹੂ ਲੱਗ ਜਾਵੇ, ਤਾਂ ਜਾਮਾ ਪਲੀਤ ਹੋ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ (ਤੇ ਨਮਾਜ਼ ਨਹੀਂ ਹੋ ਸਕਦੀ) (ਪਰ) ਜੋ ਬੰਦੇ ਮਨੁੱਖਾਂ ਦਾ ਲਹੂ ਪੀਂਦੇ ਹਨ (ਭਾਵ, ਧੱਕਾ ਕਰ ਕੇ ਹਰਾਮ ਦੀ ਕਮਾਈ ਖਾਂਦੇ ਹਨ) ਉਹਨਾਂ ਦਾ ਮਨ ਕਿਵੇਂ ਪਾਕ (ਸਾਫ਼) ਰਹਿ ਸਕਦਾ ਹੈ (ਤੇ ਪਲੀਤ ਮਨ ਨਾਲ ਨਮਾਜ਼ ਪੜ੍ਹੀ ਕਿਵੇਂ ਕਬੂਲ ਹੈ)? ਹੇ ਨਾਨਕ! ਰੱਬ ਦਾ ਨਾਮ ਮੂੰਹੋਂ ਸਾਫ਼ ਦਿਲ ਨਾਲ ਲੈ (ਇਸ ਤੋਂ ਬਿਨਾ) ਹੋਰ ਕੰਮ ਦੁਨੀਆ ਵਾਲੇ ਵਿਖਾਵੇ ਹਨ। ਇਹ ਤਾਂ ਤੁਸੀ ਕੂੜੇ ਕੰਮ ਹੀ ਕਰਦੇ ਹੋ ॥੧॥

Have you purposly mistranslated the pangtee? Because no-one else has translated it the way you have...

There is absolutly no other mention of the word 'blood' on that ang of Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

Ang723

The world eats dead carcasses, living by neglect and greed like goblins, or a beast, they kill and eat forbidden carcasses of meat. So control your urges or else you will be seized by the lord and thrown into the torture of hell.

Again mistranslation.

ਅਰਥ: ਹੇ ਮਨੁੱਖ! ਜੋ ਕੁਝ ਤੂੰ ਅੱਖੀਂ ਵੇਖਦਾ ਹੈਂ ਨਾਸਵੰਤ ਹੈ। ਪਰ ਦੁਨੀਆ (ਮਾਇਆ ਦੇ) ਲਾਲਚ ਵਿਚ (ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਵਲੋਂ) ਭੁੱਲੀ ਹੋਈ ਹੈ, ਤੇ, ਹਰਾਮ ਖਾਂਦੀ ਰਹਿੰਦੀ ਹੈ (ਪਰਾਇਆ ਹੱਕ ਖੋਂਹਦੀ ਰਹਿੰਦੀ ਹੈ)। ਰਹਾਉ। ਹੇ ਭਾਈ! ਚੇਤਨ ਜੋਤਿ ਅਤੇ ਅਚੇਤਨ ਮਿੱਟੀ ਮਿਲਾ ਕੇ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਨੇ ਇਹ ਜਗਤ ਇਹ ਜਹਾਨ ਬਣਾ ਦਿੱਤਾ ਹੈ।

Ang (page) 1103

You kill animals (living beings) and call it a righteous action (halal). Tell me brother what do you call an unrighteous action?

You call yourself the most excellent sage (person of great wisdom) then who do you call a butcher?

Looked though the entire ang, but coudn't find this. Would appreciate if you could post original Gurmukhi Pangtee.

As for as the abvoe two are concerned, you have obviously misinterpreted/mistranslated the pangtees to suit you.

I am in no way Saying Gurbani says its OK, but I'm sayign that these specific pangtees mentioned have absolutly nothing to do with the issue of meat, and thus it would mistranslating and misleading others about the pangtee. Let's not resort to such means, as this is our Guru. It is vital we understand what Guru ji is saying instead of misinterpreting and misttranslating tuks for our own belief's sake.

Again I do not want to get into the meat debate, as that is fruitless, all I'm saying is that these specific PANGTEES do not speak about meat.

Continue searching for releveant quotes, which actually DO forbid it, instead of mistranslating...

Bhull Chukk Maaf

Here's mine:

http://www.ektaone.com/audio/Keertani%20-%...5%20(pz040).mp3

With a 'Gupt Singh' Doing Kirtan at the start :lol:

There is some more stuff by him on ektaone, and Sikh Student camp audios.

Safe chap :lol:

Thank you for sharing pics Anjaan jee :lol:

Kucha Singh, Some of the Nihangs in the UK claim to be representing the Budda Dal. Some Sangta who however has had contact with Budha Dal, say that according to the main man: Santa Singh, ther eis no UK branch of Buddha Dal. So thus, Buddha Dal as a whole does not believe in snatanism. No Tarna Dal does not believe in snatanism either.

Some of the Nihangs from the UK, do belong to the Tarna dal, but generally do not agree with everything with the likes of the infamous Niddar

Again, I'm only saying 'some' because some of the Uk Nihang people are pretty safe :wub:

As for Baba Nihal Singh; Although there are pics of him with Bhai Jarnail Singh Ji Bhindranwale, some of the things he said after being arrested and ortured in jail, make him pretty dubious.....

Bhull Chukk Maaf

Shoudl be amazing.

Make sure recordings are made and the audios are uploaded!

Fully agree with 'Charan Singh'

Lets avoid having Gurbani on posters, since most of them will end up in the rubbish bins.

Let's respect Guru Ji's bani from all aspects :lol:

Kurtas that would be too hard for some of the SikhSangat members :lol:

Mere Veer jeeyo, unlike you, most people can backup their arguements with evidence other than 'my seniour family members told me'.

http://www.sgpc.net/hukamname_Aadesh_Sandesh.pdf

Hukamnama # 91 (page 163)

Jathedar Ranjit Singh.

he did kirtan the first 2 days but then sangat started sayin tht they wanna hear dharnaaz jus like he sings em in india...so he sang dharnaaz aswell as kirtan...if u dont like him dont listen to him...no use arguin...end of story

waheguru ji ka khalsa

waheguru ji ki fateeeeh

1- Was Gurbani kirtan not giving them the rus that Dharn woudl give them?

Does Dharna (i.e. his own composition) give more Rus and anand than Gurbani?

2- So what Sangat of Australia is above Akal Thakhat?

Just ebcause the Sangat of Australia Says sometihng, desn't mean he has to follow it, Akal Thakhat goes abve all. Is he there to make sangat happy or the Guru? Of course making the local Sangat happy and doing what they say (even if tha means going agianst maryada) means more c@$h...

but the shabad starts with mardana pehla, or mardana 1 not mahalla one.

i spoke to a singh and he told me that it was a gift by guru nanak dev ji to let bhai mardana ji use the name nanak.

Regarding Mardana 1, I have yet to read of some Shabad starting with the name of the writer, like

Bhat Tal:

or

Bhagat Namdev:

But I could be wrong....

Unless he's got some unique historical reference, I'd stay away from Sakhis.

I'd rather trust Prof Sahib Singh who spent his life researchign and interpreting Guru Ji's bani, and has done so successfully with pretty much every Shabad in Maharaj,

Singh, you out of all people, are very sceptical when it comes to Sakhis, and rumours and nonsense coming in to our religion. Unless he had hard-core historical reference that the name Nanak was blessed by Guru Nanak Dev Ji, I personally would raise eyebrows.

If no-one else had the right to use the word NANAK, I'd rather trust a Gurmukh scholar who's researched it for his entire life, than, some Singh told me, to be honest.... And it seems very dubious that if no-one else had the right of using the Word Nanak (which is EXCLUSIVELY reserved for the Gurus and ONLY the Guru), I too would raise some eye brows (although I don't know the technique of raising one.. I'd do it manually with my fingers... )

Bhull Chukk Maaf