SeekerKaur

@Preeet Devtas mean nothing in Sikhi. I don't understand how you brought in blessings from devtas or humans. Sikhs take blessings from only Waheguru. No one else. All Indian Sikhs do not visit temples. I am from India and know which types visit! Those who you claim visit temples are of 3 kinds - 1)those from such half Hindu, half Sikh families, 2) those who have been fooled by some pandit, Hindu friend or influenced by tales told on Indian media and all propaganda 3) those who visit just for sight seeing/tourism/curiosity 4)those who merely accompany some friend or colleague. Not every Sikh or even a large number of Sikhs visit temples or are devotees of any devi devta as you wrote. I am surprised you claim to be an Amritdhari yet talk like this. Maybe one should update himself/herself on knowledge of Sikhi before taking Amrit. Or atleast learn real Sikhi after taking Amrit instead of pretending to be Amritdhari yet having little idea of Sikhi and more of a Hindu mindset.

LOL! Looks like some Hindu is promoting Vedas and devi devtas here! There is no need to visit temples or get blessing of any devta. Hindus try to fool and scare others by claiming some devta will get rusht or something and thus get them to believe in their myths. We know what character and leelas so called devtas had. Don't get me started on it. One does not need to worship any so called devta to:prove his or her sanskar! All Sikh:elders did not visit temples. Only frauds from such half Hindu families did. True Sikhs do not visit temples nor believe in idol:worship of mytho devtas

It is impact of jokes and stereotypes against Sikhs and general mocking, bullying that Sikhs face. There is not a single Sikh who has not faced such prejudice. Especially outside Punjab. Sometimes teachers, coaches, bosses are also nasty. That makes Sikh kids and youth self conscious. One can notice it online also how people react differently when they say a Sikh ID. Either try to call that person stupid or call him/her Khalistani. Elders need to make kids and youth more aware and secure in their identity and counsel them not to take such things to their heart. There's no need to be conscious of one's identity no matter what.

I know very well, thank you. I am just asking about such half half families and so called Sikhs in these doing all sorts of things forbidden in Sikhi. Sardars who go to temples are not true Sikhs IMO. Sikhs do not believe in any devi devta, nor do idol worship. Once you become a Sikh you believe in only one Akal Purakh. If one takes up a religion one should be faithful to it than be such a mixed bag pretender as most of these so called "Sikhs" are. These people have little or no sense of Sikh history, Gurmat and Gurbani.

I agree. Saasan focus on dowry but so do many women themselves who consider it a status to symbol to take huge dowry with them and think it will help them dominate at in-laws' house. These days even teenaged girls start pestering their parents to get this or that for their future wedding. One of my cousins is like that and she has not even completed schooling yet! One can also see women who keep taking money and "gifts" from their parents throughout life and fleece them. They want nanke to fund education of dota-doti or get them expensive toys, gadgets or whatever their demands are. Such women use this to assert their authority at in-laws' house also, reminding them and their husband how much they brought from their homes and how much they contributed! Raub jamaundiyan ne! Many of them indeed do not take family situation into account and keep making demands or do kalesh. They put idea of male child preference even in those who do not have it. I remember once my relative distributed sweets at birth of their daughter. Some female asked them "ki gall? Tuhada bachcha ni si hunda jo kudi de paida hon te hi mithaai vand rahe ho?" She even gossiped to another lady, "vichaare! Kudi de paida hon te vi mithaai vandi jaa rahe ne"! Now whatever was the need to shame a couple for having a daughter and trying to celebrate her birth? Punjabi women can be really pathetic and rude. Some of them, even if educated, behave really ignorant and have little idea of world, little knowledge of current affairs or other issues. Only hollow gossip and show off. They do not even let other people work properly and sometimes have habit of interfering too much.

Couldn't have put it better. You covered almost every point. If a daughter is born they say the worst things. If a daughter is born again they say khandaan khatam ho gya! Women's education is either discouraged or they are blamed if they are better educated. Domestic violence, dowry, honour killing etc we have all such problems. Women are blamed even by police for everything they suffer (and I am not just referring to rape cases but even crimes like theft). Preachers also use sexist language instead of giving examples of positive role of Sikh women in history and trying to inspire Sikh women. People blame women but women need role models and respect. Punjabi culture is most backward when it comes to gender. That is why we have the worst sex ratio as well. There is no positive aspect in Punjabi culture. Sikhi and Punjabi culture are different. Sadly the latter dominates more.

I usually find them making fun of Amritdharis and calling them kattar. These people have even stopped giving their younger generation Sikh names now. They seem to have little knowledge of Sikhi or Sikh history except going to Gurudwara, usually do not even pronounce Gurbani properly. Keshdhari Hindus at most! They also interpret events of Punjab differently and one can find them blaming Sant ji, praising Indira or blaming Sikhs for inviting attacks on themselves in 1984 and beyond. Though they might have encountered mobs or discrimination and mockery against them due to their "Sikh identity" still they seem to feel closer to Hindus and brush it off thinking it was one off phenomenon or something that happens to everyone. They like to consider themselves "liberal" and "modern".

Thanks for responses. I came across that lawyer KTS Tulsi's clan which got me confused because some of them are Sikhs and some of them have Hindu names and are Hindus. Their extended family connections were also weird. Some were staunch Amritdharis but had cousins who were Hindus.

This thread is full of misogyny and racism. I see on this forum people:keep:complaining about girls but why not talk about Sikh boys who marry girls from other:faiths and even leave Sikhi for them and their kids:also cut their hair, shave and rarely follow Sikhi? I know many males who cut their hair, shaved, left Sikhi to:marry Hindu or Jain girls:or White girls! Why nobody calls out on them? Regarding marriage it is not always about religion. South Indian boys have great intellect and education and have top notch jobs. In general also South Indians are:far more educated, cultured and sophisticated than North Indians. Why do you want others to prefer you when you are so misogynistic and tribal minded yourself? How educated Punjabi/Sikh men are? What jobs they have? How many prestigious jobs they have? What sophistication they have? Pendu and ujjad culture, show off and only macho or casteist pride do not appeal to everyone. Instead of blaming girls why not check yourselves and see where you might lack? Someone here said girls cannot be true to anyone! LOL! By bashing women and different races are you being true to religion? I agree interfaith weddings are an issue in Sikh community but we need to work solution and see how to deal with it, bring attitude changes in ourselves also than bash girls. People consider many things before entering into marriage. They do not marry only considering religion. And you have to see what people want and make yourself desirable. Are Punjabi Sikh men educated enough? Do they have that erudition, sophistication that South Indians have? Are they just truck drivers or business owners or do they have prestigious, high profile jobs? Women want respect, class and stability. Brutish attitude repels them.

No need to get defensive. Krishna did commit many frauds, told lies and got cursed himself. He is not a god or avatar. Just another prince eulogised by Hindus. Read more on Gita to know what it is about and think critically. Also use it to:understand how Hindu mind works and plays tricks with others. Stop defending it blindly.

There are such families in which one son and his wife, kids, grandkids are Sikhs and another son and his family are Hindus. As much as I have observed it is such families who are likely to call Sikhs Hindus or call themselves also Hindus and perform Hindu rituals as well. Due to such families Sikhs are called Hindus by many Hindus also. Where did such families come from? Such families are most confusing. Some of them have say, an Amritdhari sister and jija but cousin will be a Hindu with cut bair, Hindu name and all. Or mother in law, father in law will be Hindu but only husband will be Sikh. Men, women and kids of such families usually do Hindu rituals. How did such families come about? What is their history and origin? If one son became a Sikh then shouldn't he and his wife, kids, grandkids have always followed Sikhi properly instead of looking like Sikhs, sporting Sikh names yet still doing idol worship, pujas, vrats, kanjakan etc alongside? What's the point of "becoming" Sikh like this? It is exactly such families that are used to defend interfaith marriages or claim Sikhs are sect of Hinduism or Hindus and Sikhs are same thing. Kids of such families also look like confused lot and rather closer to Hindus. They might be wearing turban but know mantras more than Gurbani! And worship like Hindus (worship of Guru Granth Sahib is no different from idol worship for them, they just keep lighting diyas, incense around SGGS, put flowers or other chadhawa in front of it but rarely understand Gurbani nor do Nitnem regularly!) These have been bane of Sikh community IMO and never bothered about Gurbani or Maryada (though rare exceptions might have been there).

Stares are natural because people get curious. It is not like they dislike you. I think:conversion is fine provided you are genuinely interested in Sikhi and want to learn about the faith and follow it properly,adapt your lifestyle according to Sikh values and teachings. But if you just want to:convert out of fancy but not follow it properly then please do not bother to do so. One must respect the tenets of the faith one is adopting. Otherwise Punjab Sikhs or any Sikhs for that matter would welcome the ones genuinely interested in becoming a Sikh. As others have commented here, best to follow your own journey.

There are many Sikhs who keep writing anti Sikh articles for leading mainstream media! And many of our people are foolish enough to support them. I wonder why these people comment on religion if they do not believe in its rules themselves? He is not the only one who writes trash.

He is agent of Indian Govt and their agencies. Not for nothing has he been CM of Punjab for so long. He was hand in glove with Govt but pretended to be Panthic earlier, incited many Sikhs but also got Govt to attack Darbar Sahib. He continues to play double games skilfully. Govt had in return rewarded him with control over Akal Takht. Though our voters are also at fault for voting for him (either due to caste or false assumption that Akalis are Panthic or in pure of booze and drugs) but someone told me that it is agencies that ensure he mostly wins no matter what. Punjab elections are not exactly a fair process. Agencies have big role in who gets to rule here. Badal clan has been given all sorts of control in Punjab,Sikh institutions are only one of them. Industry, cable TV, jobs, education etc all controlled by the clan.

RSS is far more organised than what we think it is and I think we need to understand it to be able to counter it. RSS has studied not only all branches of Hinduism but also other religions. Especially what they call Indic religions (Sikhism, Buddhism, Jainism). They have also studied foreign ideologies such as fascism, Nazism. They have first studied others, then rewritten history, interpreted religion and society from their Hindutva POV. Whereas we Sikhs often keep arguing with each other or reject other histories, ideologies and insist on our old time methods. I think there is nothing wrong in studying others and using their successful formula to help own purpose. RSS has many many wings and sister organisations. Kisan manch, bhaasha manch types for farmers, Indian languages, Sikh sangat for Sikhs, Muslim Rashtriya Manch for Muslims (who they have convinced of their Hindu ancestry), women's organisation like Durga Vahini etc. The think tank groups are different. The on-ground and violent type groups such as Bajrang Dal are different. They all have divided their duties. One of the main features of RSS is that they have been at their work for a long time. They have a history of over 90 years or so. I think we need to learn from their patience. They are sometimes reckless, sometimes slow, sometimes in your face and sometimes totally off the radar. The massive chadhawa at temples and religious events goes into their funding. They have links to many deras and ashrams as well. Both in India and abroad. They have support of Indian govt and intelligence agencies. This is an open secret. They have worked with Congress too. This is why Congress practises soft Hindutva while BJP is more brazen and direct in Hindutva. They have academics, historians, scientists, film, TV, theatre artists and filmmakers, sociologists, writers, journalists, editors, TV/radio channel owners, retired police, army, air force, navy, intelligence officers, retired IAS, IPS, IFS, IRS officers, doctors, engineers, lawyers, retired judges, top notch businessmen, bankers, economists, spiritual leaders etc, all sorts of people in their organisation. I doubt if any other community organisations or think tanks can match that diverse intellectual pool. One really needs to step up their game if they have to counter RSS. RSS has even engaged kids, housewives. They have trained young girls as fiery preachers who give aggressive speeches on Hindutva and spew venom against other communities. Sadhvi Balika Saraswati or something is one such girl whose speeches went viral sometime back. They have lot of print material in form of books, magazines or their monthly publications like Organiser, Panchjanya etc. They are all over the internet too with a whole gang of Facebook and Twitter trolls who they call HDL - Hindu Defense League who trend pro RSS, pro BJP hashtags all the time and troll everyone be it celebs, journos or commoners. They have their Youtubers, Instagrammers, online commenters on media websites also. They have done a lot, from rewriting world history to writing even books on science and agriculture based on Hindutva and create a so called Hindu worldview or prove Hindu civilisation was mother of world civilisation. One thing is that they do everything with conviction even if it sounds ridiculous. They try to find common links with Hinduism in practices, monuments and cultures of other countries too even if they do not fall in their Hindu rashtra map. Their swamis and sadhvis travel to even remote areas of places like Lakshadweep, Andaman and Nicobar islands to preach Hinduism among natives. They, like Christian missionaries, try to cover everyone from tribals to prisoners in jails. They do give military training to boys and girls and even teach how to make bombs. Sanatan Sanstha was exposed for this. So was role of RSS in recent Jhabua blasts. They have many websites like archives of rss, hindu jagruti, hindu human rights, hindu rashtra etc where they have not only current news but also step by step plans for Hindu rashtra. Their IT team also edits Wikipedia and either creates pages of their version of history or puts their version on existing pages. Zee News, India News, DNA newspaper, Sudarshan news etc are all owned by RSS men for example. And report all news, do analysis of national and international politics according to own POV. They have people of their ideology including students and academics in top institutions like IITs, IIMs, DU, DRDO, ISRO and also foreign universities including Ivy league types. They have subtle ways of reaching people. Pretend to do social work, help them, hold seminars for them, or lure them saying the classes are for fitness, meditation, skill development etc but it turns out something else. They are sly. Sometimes they even pretend to support who they oppose. For eg, they supported Sarbat Khalsa being held. Or in 2005 they sort of came close to supporting Sikhs on demand of amendment in Art 25 wherein we are dubbed under Hindus. Or earlier they supported release of Sikh prisoners. Fundamentally they remain what they are but keep changing colours, play games slowly according to changing political climate. Like this time an RSS guy condemned Nathuram Godse in public but in reality they honour him. Volunteers are there but RSS is also known to give money to attract followers. It is luring Sikh youth in villages through monetary enticement only. RSS has branches and agents in other countries too. The riots in Nepal and Madhesi conflict is stoked by them. Again an open secret. Sangh Parivaar is sly, secretive and discreet in its work. Often even backtracks or contradicts itself to ward off allegations against them. I think we sort of lack such foxy tricks.

@Jacfsingh Thanks for the reply. While I agree all decisions cannot be accepted by all, still I don't agree with all your responses. You said those Sikhs who are not Amritdhari will not agree. That is not entirely true. There were Amritdhari Sikhs from other states who later dissociated from Sarbat Khalsa resolutions. Evident that they did it for security concerns and reaffirmed their loyalty to Indian state for sake of safety. These are the concerns I sought to discuss. Will Sikhs ever be able to accept all decisions given they are located in different places under different kinds of laws? Example of Panj Pyare in Guru Gobind Singh ji's time is different. Infact if I am not mistaken, not everybody followed what Guru ji proclaimed then. This is why I am asking how does Panthic unity get achieved? And if Sarbat Khalsa and its decisions are not accepted by Amritdharis due to location, laws and other compulsions then what to do? You talked about only Amritdharis. So does it mean non Amritdharis have nothing to do with Sarbat Khalsa or decisions of Panth do not apply on them?

It does not matter at all. We are seeing what he or his government have done for Sikhs. Such token gestures are just a way to try and fool community or feign respect for diversity.

I am new here as a member but have been a silent reader for a long time. Had some questions so decided to register and discuss here. I want to know - can our institutions ever work the way we envision them? Can all Sikhs unite as Panth and accept decisions? Can all Sikhs accept Akal Takht hukamnamas? We have restrictions of different states,countries, different laws. Can entire Sikh community accept all decisions of Akal Takht, Sarbat Khalsa? Can Sarbat Khalsa ever successfully represent aspirations of all Sikhs? Immediately after this year's Sarbat Khalsa, Sikhs from states like Rajasthan, Haryana, UP started announcing that they did not support all resolutions of Sarbat Khalsa. They said they only wanted Akal Takht to be free from Badal influence. They either criticised decisions to appoint Hawara as Jathedar, commitment to resolutions of Sarbat Khalsa 1986 or chose not to comment at all. Some Sikhs in Punjab and diaspora also spoke against Sarbat Khalsa. So are our institutions workable as we envision them? Will Sikhs accept decisions? Or will their personal opinions or geographical, ideological and other limitations always prevent resolutions and hukamnamas from being supported? Before someone starts talking about Khalistan, let me clarify that this problem would have arisen even if we had Khalistan. What about Sikhs who were living outside Khalistan? Would they have been able to accept all decisions? Please discuss and share your viewpoints. I find it all confusing seeing Sikhs scattered in various parts of the world and all having different POVs.