taran0

just posted another article as we have not heard nidars point of view and I am not an unfair person so I have been trying to get an offical statement from him, maybe he is misunderstood, we should let him have his say. http://www.shastervidiya.org/nidar-hiding-and-not-responding/ Following many of Nidars students inundating the wesbite making threats and hiding behind fake names saying that we are biased I have made numerous attempts to contact nidar though his website and facebook pages here is the proof - message posted on his facebook page - the Comments are subsequently deleted immediately without response. So regardless of the countless calls of his students to ask him face to face, why doesn't he not make an offical statement for all to see. Ask Nidar to make a statement and we will post it here.

what arguments there was no arguments going on - its an official docuemnt and for the mods to take it down doesnt make sense its main sikh news and concerns everyone, at least just take down the offending posts but the whole thread? doesnt make sense?

for some reason the post on sikhsangat about the Offical letter from Nihang Jathedars excommunicating Nidar has gone, does any of the admin know where it has been moved to or why it has been taken down? im sure its just a glitch but can you look into it please

just added another 3 articles one to note is http://www.shastervidiya.org/gt-1588-kashi-house-and-ukpha-supporters-of-nidar/ Sev­eral organ­isa­tions run and cre­ated by Nidar’s cult mem­bers’ sup­port him. Like GT 1588 who have over 5000 likes on face­book and UKPHA, East­ern Arts Part­ner­ship, as well as Asian Health Ini­ti­at­ive, all run by Parmjit Gre­wal and Aman­deep Madra. They had to change their name due to the Sangat asso­ci­at­ing UKPHA with Nidar. See Parmjit with his Mas­ter Nidar Here are two examples of just some of the Grants they have received: Applic­ant: Asian Health Her­it­age Amount awar­ded: £49,900 Applic­ant: East­ern Arts Part­ner­ship Amount awar­ded: £59, 000 They have applied for approx­im­ately 20–30 grants we know about ran­ging from £10,000 to £100,000 totalling an estim­ated 2 mil­lion pounds. They have received grants from Eng­lish Her­it­age, Brit­ish Academy, National Her­it­age Memorial Fund, HLF, private donors and oth­ers, pos­ing as genu­ine Sikh Historians. Through this they invite Nidar and pay him large sums to attend, and sup­port his parchar. Without them Nidar can­not sur­vive fin­an­cially. Report them to local bod­ies for ‘Incit­ing Reli­gious Hatred’ 2006. All they do is cause trouble to get atten­tion. This year at their lame exhib­i­tion it was repeatedly said at one of the main talks that Khalsa is from Shiva! and Khalsa is Hindu-Sikh. Boy­cott these lame account­ants and pseudo kung fu nangs! Nidar being pro­moted via her­it­age projects someone who atten­ded their last exhib­i­tion at the Brunei Gal­lery GT 1588, where nidar was the main speaker, Mani Singh had the fol­low­ing to say per­son­ally did attend the exhib­i­tion and yes there was some very inter­est­ing arti­facts there. The people under­tak­ing the guided tours were very pro­fes­sional and artic­u­late. It is just a shame that they were pro­mot­ing san­atamism. The guide, many times made com­par­is­ons between hindus and sikhs i.e. a sikh can be there is no dif­fer­ence between someone keep­ing their hair and those that chose not to, he talked about the rituals per­formed at Hazoor Sahib, which many right think­ing indi­vidu­als know to be totally against sikhi, ey they stated that was what our Guru ji’s wanted and what was hap­pen­ing out­side Hazoor Sahib was largely the mod­ern­ised ver­sion of sikhi!! I was just ashamed that anti-sikh pratices were being pro­moted is such a pro­fes­sional man­ner, some­thing which is totally alien to the major­ity of sikh camps, lec­tures, lit­er­at­ure or like minded events. (Mani Singh) Nidar Singh doing a talk at the Golden Temple exhib­i­tion teach­ing his snatan­ism Hindu-Sikh ideo­logy to unsus­pect­ing public

ਕਾਹੂ ਦਸਾ ਕੇ ਪਵਨ ਗਵਨ ਕੈ ਬਰਖਾ ਹੈ ਕਾਹੂ ਦਸਾ ਕੇ ਪਵਨ ਬਾਦਰ ਬਿਲਾਤ ਹੈ । Just as wind blowing from a particular direction causes rain while another direction blows the clouds away. ਕਾਹੂ ਜਲ ਪਾਨ ਕੀਏ ਰਹਤ ਅਰੋਗ ਦੋਹੀ ਕਾਹੂ ਜਲ ਪਾਨ ਬਿਆਪੇ ਬ੍ਰਿਥਾ ਬਿਲਲਾਤ ਹੈ । Just as drinking some water keeps the body healthy while some other water causes one to fall sick. It troubles the patient no end. ਕਾਹੂ ਗ੍ਰਿਹ ਕੀ ਅਗਨਿ ਪਾਕ ਸਾਕ ਸਿਧਿ ਕਰੈ ਕਾਹੂ ਗ੍ਰਿਹ ਕੀ ਅਗਨਿ ਭਵਨੁ ਜਰਾਤ ਹੈ । Just as the fire of a house helps in cooking but the fire raged in another house burns the house to ashes' ਕਾਹੂ ਕੀ ਸੰਗਤ ਮਿਲਿ ਜੀਵਨ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਹੁਇ ਕਾਹੂ ਕੀ ਸੰਗਤਿ ਮਿਲਿ ਜਮੁਪੁਰਿ ਜਾਤ ਹੈ ॥੫੪੯॥ Similarly someone's company liberates, while other's company leads one to hell. (549) ਭਾਈ ਗੁਰਦਾਸ ਜੀ : ਕਬਿੱਤ ੫੪੯ ਪੰ. ੪

These videos are wicked - i met an english guy who said he loves these videos and he learnt so much

just added another article describing a publication by Nidar from 1998 where he states that the original ancient art was Chatka Gatka he writes so Chatka Gatka came from Akaal Purkh according to niddar in 1998 but after reading and learning a bit more it is now Shastar Vidiya and chatka gatka has disapeared. If something is that ancient why did it go through so many name changes and why did you have to find or decide upon a new name? and why isnt shiv akhara and snatan used in 1998. maybe because Nidar hadn't incorporated it yet into his made up art which is loosely BASED on information about ancient arts. you can read the full article here http://www.shastervi...an-ancient-one/

Mahadev ko kehat sada shiv, nirnkar ka chinat nai bhiv Shiva is not akaal purkh Khalsa akaal purkh ki fauj, pragteyo khalsa parmatam ki mauj Who made shiva, who gave him weapons? You dont even have to refute it as Guru Govind singh ji has already refuted it very clearly Some firmly fasten the idol (of Vishnu) to their neck and some call Shiva their God. Some say God is in the Hindu temple and oth­ers con­sider His abode in the Muslim Mosque.Some call Him (God) Rama, oth­ers Krishna and some identify Him in their hearts with other incarn­a­tions. I have aban­doned all such fake reli­gions and I accept that only God is the cre­ator of liv­ing beings.(12)If you call Rama to be abso­lutely uncon­ceived and unborn, how could He be born of Kaushalia’s womb? If you call Krishna the Immor­tal Being, why was he sub­ject to death?If Krishna was called the apostle of peace and devoid of enmity, then what com­pelled him to drive the chariot of Arjuna ? Recog­nize Him as your Sole Mas­ter whose mys­tery none has revealed and none will be able to reveal.(13)You identify Krishna as the Ocean of mercy, why did the hunter shoot an arrow at him? One who res­cues the dyn­asties of oth­ers, why did he get his own dyn­asty annihilated?One who is deemed as uncon­ceived since the begin­ning, how did he enter into the womb of Devki ? One who has neither father, nor mother, how could Vas­udeva be termed as his father ?(14)Why do you call Shiva your Mas­ter? Why do you describe Brahma as your Supreme Spirit? The lord of the Raghuvansh (Rama), the chief­tain of the Yada­vas (Krishna), Rama’s spouse (Vishnu) whom you con­sider as lords of the uni­verse, were not God.Dis­card­ing the One God, you wor­ship many. Like­wise Sukh­dev, Prashar and Vyas were proven false due to pan­the­ism. All have estab­lished hol­low reli­gions. I believe in One God who reveals Him­self in many modes.(15)Some wor­ship Brahma as God, oth­ers look upon Shiva as their Lord. Some describe Vishnu as the Lord of the world and coerce oth­ers to wor­ship him as by doing so all the sins are eliminated.Con­sider this a thou­sand times, O fool! in the end all these (deit­ies) will aban­don you. Con­tem­plate Him in your mind, who was, now is and shall ever be in future.(16)He made mil­lions of Indras. He made and des­troyed myri­ads of Vaman Incarn­a­tions. He cre­ated demons, gods, Shesh­naga, moun­tains, birds and beasts, who are bey­ond count.Shiva and Brahma have been doing pen­ances to this day but could not find His lim­its. My Guru has told me of the Supreme Lord whose mys­tery is not fathomed by the Vedas and the Semitic texts.(17)”(Guru Gobind Singh Ji, Dasam Granth — 1544)

just posted another article about shastar vidiya in the second world war http://www.shastervi...in-world-war-2/ and tonight we got something awesome to show everyone, all im sayign is be ready fro this one !

grapes are good and healthy

theres a really good booklet here http://www.sikhmissionarysociety.org/sms/smspublications/SikhReligionAndHinduism.pdf

Jin Ki Liv har charnee laagee, teh bedan teh pey tyagee those who were devoted to the feet of the lord, they abandoned the vedas jin mat bed kateban tyagi, parbrahm keh pey anuragi those who abandoned the path of the vedas and katebs, they became the devotees of the lord. Guru Gobind Singh ji(Bachittar Natak)

The Vedas and the Semitic texts have not been able to unravel His mys­tery; all the Siddhas are tired of con­tem­plat­ing on Him. The Sim­rit­ies, the Shas­tras, the Vedas and the Pur­anas have all given con­sid­er­a­tion to mul­ti­far­i­ous ideologies. Some firmly fasten the idol (of Vishnu) to their neck and some call Shiva their God. Some say God is in the Hindu temple and oth­ers con­sider His abode in the Muslim Mosque. Some call Him (God) Rama, oth­ers Krishna and some identify Him in their hearts with other incarn­a­tions. I have aban­doned all such fake reli­gions and I accept that only God is the cre­ator of liv­ing beings.(12) If you call Rama to be abso­lutely uncon­ceived and unborn, how could He be born of Kaushalia’s womb? If you call Krishna the Immor­tal Being, why was he sub­ject to death? If Krishna was called the apostle of peace and devoid of enmity, then what com­pelled him to drive the chariot of Arjuna ? Recog­nize Him as your Sole Mas­ter whose mys­tery none has revealed and none will be able to reveal.(13) You identify Krishna as the Ocean of mercy, why did the hunter shoot an arrow at him? One who res­cues the dyn­asties of oth­ers, why did he get his own dyn­asty annihilated? One who is deemed as uncon­ceived since the begin­ning, how did he enter into the womb of Devki ? One who has neither father, nor mother, how could Vas­udeva be termed as his father ?(14) Why do you call Shiva your Mas­ter? Why do you describe Brahma as your Supreme Spirit? The lord of the Raghuvansh (Rama), the chief­tain of the Yada­vas (Krishna), Rama’s spouse (Vishnu) whom you con­sider as lords of the uni­verse, were not God. Dis­card­ing the One God, you wor­ship many. Like­wise Sukh­dev, Prashar and Vyas were proven false due to pan­the­ism. All have estab­lished hol­low reli­gions. I believe in One God who reveals Him­self in many modes.(15) Some wor­ship Brahma as God, oth­ers look upon Shiva as their Lord. Some describe Vishnu as the Lord of the world and coerce oth­ers to wor­ship him as by doing so all the sins are eliminated. Con­sider this a thou­sand times, O fool! in the end all these (deit­ies) will aban­don you. Con­tem­plate Him in your mind, who was, now is and shall ever be in future.(16) He made mil­lions of Indras. He made and des­troyed myri­ads of Vaman Incarn­a­tions. He cre­ated demons, gods, Shesh­naga, moun­tains, birds and beasts, who are bey­ond count. Shiva and Brahma have been doing pen­ances to this day but could not find His lim­its. My Guru has told me of the Supreme Lord whose mys­tery is not fathomed by the Vedas and the Semitic texts.(17)” (Guru Gobind Singh Ji, Dasam Granth — 1544) also read this excerpt from Guru Gobind Singh Jis bani which clearly states he only worships the almight Vaheguru who created all beings including the angels and the demons (posted at http://www.shastervi....org/truegurde/) ਨਰਾਜ ਛੰਦ ॥ NARAAJ STANZA ਕਹਿਓ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਸੁ ਭਾਖਿ ਹੋਂ ॥ ਕਿਸੂ ਨ ਕਾਨ ਰਾਖਿ ਹੋਂ ॥ I say only that which the Lord hath said, I do not yield to any­one else. ਕਿਸੂ ਨ ਭੇਖ ਭੀਜ ਹੋਂ ॥ ਅਲੇਖ ਬੀਜ ਬੀਜ ਹੋਂ ॥੩੪॥ I do not feel pleased with any par­tic­u­lar cos­tume, I sow the seed of God‘s Name.34. ਪਖਾਣ ਪੂਜ ਹੋਂ ਨਹੀਂ ॥ ਨ ਭੇਖ ਭੀਜ ਹੋ ਕਹੀਂ ॥ I do not wor­ship stones, nor I have any lik­ing for a par­tic­u­lar guise. ਅਨੰਤ ਨਾਮੁ ਗਾਇ ਹੋਂ ॥ ਪਰਮ ਪੁਰਖ ਪਾਇ ਹੋਂ ॥੩੫॥ I sing infin­ite Names (of the Lord), and meet the Supreme Purusha.35. ਜਟਾ ਨ ਸੀਸ ਧਾਰਿਹੋਂ ॥ ਨ ਮੁੰਦ੍ਰਕਾ ਸੁ ਧਾਰਿ ਹੋਂ ॥ I do not wear mat­ted hair on my head, nor do I put rings in my ears. ਨ ਕਾਨਿ ਕਾਹੂ ਕੀ ਧਰੋਂ ॥ ਕਹਿਓ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਸੁ ਮੈ ਕਰੋਂ ॥੩੬॥ I do not pay atten­tion to any­one else, all my actions are at the bid­ding of the Lord.36. ਭਜੋਂ ਸੁ ਏਕ ਨਾਮਯੰ ॥ ਜੁ ਕਾਮ ਸਰਬ ਠਾਮਯੰ ॥ I recite only the Name of the Lord, which is use­ful at all places. ਨ ਜਾਪ ਆਨ ਕੋ ਜਪੋ ॥ ਨ ਅਉਰ ਥਾਪਨਾ ਥਪੋ ॥੩੭॥ I do not med­it­ate on any­one else, nor do I seek assist­ance from any other quarter.37. ਬਿਅੰਤਿ ਨਾਮ ਧਿਆਇ ਹੋਂ ॥ ਪਰਮ ਜੋਤਿ ਪਾਇ ਹੋਂ ॥ I recite infin­ite Names and attain the Supreme light. (Guru Gobind Singh ji, 137 — Sri Dasam Granth)

two swords left and right - one represents the physical aspect and one represents the spiritual aspect of our being, the double edged sword in the middle faces both ways and represents god as being manifest in both the physical and spiritual - circular chakar represents the unending nature of life, there is no beginning and there is no end as vaheguru is beyond birth and death. we have a body and we have a soul and they cannot be seperated they are bound to each other, until the end of this life, the body rots away and recycles and the soul moves into a new body. nature reflects this clearly as the cycle of nature continually recycles and maintains a balance, The Guru says that to successfully traverse and escape the cycle one must understand and conquer his spiritual and physical aspects and through devotion merge into the one.

Even if wine is made from the water of the Ganges, O Saints, do not drink it. (SGGS 1293) Those who are deluded by sensual pleasures, who are tempted by sexual delights and enjoy wine are corrupt. But those who, through destiny and good karma, join the Society of the Saints, float over the ocean, like iron attached to wood.(SGGS 335) One person brings a full bottle, and another fills his cup. Drinking wine, his intelligence departs, and madness enters his mind; he cannot distinguish between his own and others, and he is struck down by his Lord and Master. Drinking it, he forgets his Lord and Master, and he is punished in the Court of the Lord. Do not drink the false wine at all, if it is in your power. (554) personally if I don't drink it myself I would not encourage, sell or support its usage.

http://www.sikhhelpline.com The ‘Sikh Helpline’ (0845 644 0704) or (07999 00 4363) is a professional and confidential telephone counselling and email inquiry service where you can get help, advice, counselling and information on Sikhism and cultural issues including: Issues regarding Articles of faith Bullying and Racism Discrimination within the work place Relationship Issues Domestic Violence and Abuse Addiction (Smoking/Drinking/Drugs) Problems at school or home To date they have helped to deal with many situations from grooming to bullting at schools. Please support this wonderful organisation that seeks to help any young sikh in trouble. they have a small team of councillors and mediators and would like to hear from qualified volunteers to help out. They also arrange sikhi workshops, chaplaincy at universities, workshops and kirtan darbars. I am not directly involved but I have had to call the sikh helpline myself once when i was in need of help and they really helped sort the situation out, I was really proud of the way they listened and did everything in their power to help, which is why in turn i decided to try and help them out as much as I can. wjkkwjfkateh Taranjit Singh

thanks N30S1NGH Really appreciate the honesty, we are in the process of compiling a load of similar personal experiences from diferent people, and we will be presenting the findings to all the sangat, i think if the parents and sangat knew they would not allow their kids to go there. this is a new situation that the sangat is dealing with, kalyug influencing young sikhs through gatka training, when kids say im going to gatka parents think oh thats good, and let them go, unaware of what is being preached there. Since setting up the website we have had various emails from individuals who have either been to his classes or know people who go there and there is much talk of substance abuse. everyoen knows the situation in punjab in terms of aclohol and drug abuse, if not read the following article The Menace of Drug Addiction and Alcoholism amongst Sikh Youths in Punjab By Dr.Amarjit Singh.U.K. There are many economic, cultural and government influenced issues that has caused this situation in punjab and we dont need the same thing here in the UK. when we are free from those issues. at the end of the day like Niddars students keep saying everyone has their own opinion and they have a right to it, I have no need to change anyones opinion if they beleive in shastarvidiya then you are welcome, all we are going to do is present the facts and people's experiences to the sangat and let them decide for themself. dont we tell our kids and little cousins, when they first go to secondary school , stay away from people who smoke or go on sessions, concentrate on your education and dont mess about. we been there so we know what goes on. we dont say go to secondary school little cousin and be open minded and try everything out for yourself, the people who take drugs and session even give them a chance and have a go with them and make your own mind up. we all have a right to warn and steer our youngsters onto a good path, one that doesnt invovle alcohol and marijuana and unhealthy KFC buckets. wjkkwjfkateh

I feel you khalsitanigunman pretty much the same way I dont see anything good to have come from niddars emergence, apart from promoting ego, drinking alcohol, getting smashed on marijuana, never doing any nitnem or going to kirtan and not having any rehit. common sense dictates that anything which takes you away from the Guru is not good. Noone i have come across who has gone to niddar has moved closer to the Guru - ratehr they just like to argue and cry about how somehow things changed a 100 years ago and now its ok to do all the things syaney Singhs told you not to. BIKHEY BANFEEKA TYAAG REE SAKHEEYAI , NAAM MAHA RASS PEEYA

Bani Bana Pankh Pashano, Singh Guru Ka Panshee Jano spiritual and physical discipline know these to be the two wings, the Guru's singh has both and flys like a bird if snatan Hindu shastarvidiya was so good, then why did Guru Gobind Singh ji have to be born in the age of Kalyug and create the Sant-Sipahi KHALSA, a diferent warrior that had spirituality and bravery in one. why did Guru Gobind Singh ji say in Bachittar Natak "PANTH CHALEY TAB JAGAT MEH JAB TUM HO SAHAI" that a new panth will flourish in the world when God will grant his support. so there was no talk of carry on the Hindu reet, it was "eh teesar majhab hu khalsa, upjio pardhana" Guru Gobind Singh ji was asked who is truly great in this world DHAN JIO TEH KO JAG MEH MUKH TEH HAR CHIT MEH YUDH VICHAAR only they are great in this age, who have the name of the lord on their lips and thought of war against injustice on their mind (Guru Gobind Singh Ji - Dasam Granth) how many shaheedis or morchas has the "Akali Nihang Baba Darbara Singh Suraj Bansia Ranjit Shiv Akhara" been invovled in ? In which historic books has "Akali Nihang Baba Darbara Singh Suraj Bansia Ranjit Shiv Akhara" been mentioned in ? actually before Niddar singh came back from india who has ever heard of it, ask people from india they have never heard of them. where does Guru Gobind Singh ji mention Shastarvidiya in bani - surely if it was so important he would have not forgot to mention it. all balanced questions that need to be discussed and talked about. Gurbani is the highest and it is what they are most afraid of. There is a saying in birmingham now which goes like this "Niddars boys are warriors afraid of nothing apart from Paath and kirtan" its a sad state of affairs which we do not want passed to the next generation. we should grorify those who have actually done something for sikhi, not just done a few scripted seminars, and proclaimed to be the last sikh soldier on earth.

thanks, made the correction. just posted another article about "the last sikh warrior"

I have setup a website to share some eyewitness accounts, articles and images that will help to counter some of the claims made by <banned site filter activated> and Nidar Singh. I think its healthy to have a good debate and dialogue, which is practising our freedom of speech in a healthy way. living in the west Midlands and seeing the result of Nidars legacy i am just sharing a vewipoint that is shared by many others. It is very sad to see people dismiss gurbani as ritualistic and abandon spirituality becoming a bird with only one wing that will never be able to fly to the guru's charan. please visit www.sarbloh.com, it's just started off so we will be adding loads more information in the coming weeks. Taranjit Singh www.sarbloh.com ਜੇ ਜੇ ਜਗ ਕੋ ਡਿੰਭ ਦਿਖਾਵੈ ॥ ਲੋਗਨ ਮੂੰਡ ਅਧਿਕ ਸੁਖੁ ਪਾਵੈ ॥ Those who exhibit dif­fer­ent guises, find dis­ci­ples and enjoy great comforts. ਨਾਸਾਂ ਮੂੰਦ ਕਰੇ ਪ੍ਰਣਾਮੰ ॥ ਫੋਕਟ ਧਰਮ ਨ ਕਉਡੀ ਕਾਮੰ ॥੫੭॥ Those who pierce their nos­trils and per­form pros­tra­tions, their reli­gious dis­ci­pline is vain and useless.57. ਫੋਕਟ ਧਰਮ ਜਿਤੇ ਜਗ ਕਰਹੀਂ ॥ ਨਰਕ ਕੁੰਡ ਭੀਤਰ ਤੇ ਪਰਹੀਂ ॥ All the fol­low­ers of the futile path, fall into hell from within. ਹਾਥ ਹਲਾਏ ਸੁਰਗਿ ਨ ਜਾਹੂ ॥ ਜੋ ਮਨੁ ਜੀਤ ਸਕਾ ਨਹਿ ਕਾਹੂ ॥੫੮॥ They can­not go to heav­ens with the move­ment of the hands, because they could not con­trol their minds in any way. 58. (Guru Gob­ind Singh Ji, 141 — Dasam Granth)

Here is a quick photoshop sketch of Bhai SURINDER Singh Sodhi, saw some old photos and thought would be nice to do something modern with these images to engage young sikhs into finding out who these people are..... sorry Bhai Surinder singh sodhi - bit dyslexic so words come out with diferent letters soemtimes - apoligies Taran

ok i think you have misunderstood, the "AT WILL" phrase i was actually tryign to find a nice way of sayign what Guru Gobind Singh was saying I did not say it is to be enjoyed at will, i said that the hukamnama from Guru Gobind Singh jis bani says this that to control your kaam enjoy your own women NITT but do not go to the bed of a parayee (other) woman even in your dreams. ਨਿਜ ਨਾਰੀ ਕੇ ਸੰਗ ਨੇਹ ਤੁਮ ਨਿੱਤ ਬਢੈਯਹੁ ॥ nij naree kae sang naeh thum nth badtaiyahu || ਪਰਨਾਰੀ ਕੀ ਸੇਜ ਭੂਲਿ ਸੁਪਨੇ ਹੂੰ ਨ ਜੈਯਹੁ ॥੫੧॥ paranaree kee saej bhool supanae hoon n jaiyahu ||51|| 4 Amrit Keertan Guru Gobind Singh Page 852 Line 4 the link is here or look in your amrit kirtan http://www.searchgurbani.com/main.php?book...p;ShabadID=2234 the rough translation is enjoy the company of your wife daily but do not go to the bed of another woman even in your dreams, (check some translations and ask soem people) it is as simple as that, it never amazes me when people who have little or no life experience or are not even married try to pass judgement/edicts when they have no life/partner/marriage experience. to live in grhisti jeevan is the way the gurus intended for us to live, and to say that sex is only for procreation is both naive and misleading to other young sikhs. A healthy sexual relationship between a husband and wife is a key function of a happy healthy relationship so is simran, working hard, spending quality time with your family, doing seva together and growing old together and also eating together. maybe we shouldnt eat for pleasure, but those prontey with the extra butter, now if you over indulge you will get fat and it will be a negative effect, but the odd prontey now and again is fine, in balance in moderation, but certainly not JUST TO FILL YOUR TED! we all eat for pleasure it is a material thing. even though in the spiritual sense it has no taste, but we are not only spiritual but we are physical aswell, and the body has many needs as does the spirit. what I am tryign to say is don't see sex as a horrible and nasty evil thing that will send you to hell. It is a necessary function of being a ghristi jeevan Sikh. When you can understand its function not only as a physical function but a emotional need aswell. again i will end it here with "read this tuk above from bani", maybe not now in your life it won't make sense but at some point it will. It was told to me to me 8 years ago before i got married by an old Taksali Singh in India, at the time i was both shocked as you might be and confused, but after a few years it made sense to me. there are many other examples from Guru Gobind Singh jis bani that talk of the same things. To understand your own nature is a key to controlling it and balancing it. If you have delusions of your own purity then you are deluding yourself and putting yourself at great risk of making a mistake, because you are chasing a dream of purity that can only be acheived by a Satguru Like Guru Gobind Singh Ji. as for homosexuality i dont really have a problem with it, it may not be accepted by the anand karaj but i choose to live and let live, i have a few gay friends and they are good people, it is not my place to judge them. Many of them have received retribution and hatred for what they are which i think is against sikhi, The Gurus taught us to not discriminate against anyone and protect those who are being persecuted, regardless of their faith, colour, religion or sexuality. also kusrey in india are widely accepted as a part of the society there and all the times i have been they just seemed like people trying to live their life who are left alone to live their lives by everyone. and that last person who posted that rant at the end saying ALIAS "not to mention, sex for pleasure makes you a beast with, just not caring about the other person, and to treat them like a prostitute/ piece of meat. " this person ALIAS seems to be displaying a lot of aggression and frustration about sexuality which is not healthy. Surely one can be with a person who is their life partner in a loving and caring way why does it have to be so perverted in your view. Seriously i mean no offense but you have a bit of a dark side. in my experience it is the perverted ones who go around condeming and sentencing everyone to hell, because they only see in others the same darkness that torments them.

dont usually post on these forums but came across this and its on thing that really doesnt make sense i think harjeet singh you will find in early rehitnamas that say "nij naree kae sang naeh thum nth badtaiyahu" look it up http://www.searchgurbani.com/main.php?book...p;ShabadID=2234 Sexual relations between a husband and wife are not lust that is a natural consumation of a marriage and can be enjoyed at will. but do not enter the bed of another woman even in your dreams.... this is the hukam of Guru Gobind Singh. The guru even uses this analogy when speaking of the soul bride merging with the husband lord. "She is filled with virtuous joy, and is totally pleased, when she is ravished and enjoyed by her Lord, and imbued with His Love" Guru Nanak Dev Ji Raag Soohee 765 "Says Nanak, my Husband Lord has ravished and enjoyed His soul-bride; my bed has become very beautiful and sublime." Guru Arjan Dev Ji Raag Bilaaval 822 Sex is a natural beautiful thing and i don't understand why so many sikhs go catholic militant over it and see it as such a negative and horrible act. It is kudarat it is nature. Sikhi does say though that we do not go around doing it like animals with anything that moves, but within the confines of a loving married relationship it is a pure act.

I was searching some articles online at the times website and found this amazing article by Dr Phyliss chesler who is an Emerita Professor of Psychology and Women’s Studies at the City University of New York. How my eyes were opened to the barbarity of Islam Once I was held captive in Kabul. I was the bride of a charming, seductive and Westernised Afghan Muslim whom I met at an American college. The purdah I experienced was relatively posh but the sequestered all-female life was not my cup of chai — nor was the male hostility to veiled, partly veiled and unveiled women in public. When we landed in Kabul, an airport official smoothly confiscated my US passport. “Don’t worry, it’s just a formality,” my husband assured me. I never saw that passport again. I later learnt that this was routinely done to foreign wives — perhaps to make it impossible for them to leave. Overnight, my husband became a stranger. The man with whom I had discussed Camus, Dostoevsky, Tennessee Williams and the Italian cinema became a stranger. He treated me the same way his father and elder brother treated their wives: distantly, with a hint of disdain and embarrassment. In our two years together, my future husband had never once mentioned that his father had three wives and 21 children. Nor did he tell me that I would be expected to live as if I had been reared as an Afghan woman. I was supposed to lead a largely indoor life among women, to go out only with a male escort and to spend my days waiting for my husband to return or visiting female relatives, or having new (and very fashionable) clothes made. In America, my husband was proud that I was a natural-born rebel and free thinker. In Afghanistan, my criticism of the treatment of women and of the poor rendered him suspect, vulnerable. He mocked my horrified reactions. But I knew what my eyes and ears told me. I saw how poor women in chadaris were forced to sit at the back of the bus and had to keep yielding their place on line in the bazaar to any man. Background I saw how polygamous, arranged marriages and child brides led to chronic female suffering and to rivalry between co-wives and half-brothers; how the subordination and sequestration of women led to a profound estrangement between the sexes — one that led to wife-beating, marital rape and to a rampant but hotly denied male “prison”-like homosexuality and pederasty; how frustrated, neglected and uneducated women tormented their daughter-in-laws and female servants; how women were not allowed to pray in mosques or visit male doctors (their husbands described the symptoms in their absence). Individual Afghans were enchantingly courteous — but the Afghanistan I knew was a bastion of illiteracy, poverty, treachery and preventable diseases. It was also a police state, a feudal monarchy and a theocracy, rank with fear and paranoia. Afghanistan had never been colonised. My relatives said: “Not even the British could occupy us.” Thus I was forced to conclude that Afghan barbarism was of their own making and could not be attributed to Western imperialism. Long before the rise of the Taleban, I learnt not to romanticise Third World countries or to confuse their hideous tyrants with liberators. I also learnt that sexual and religious apartheid in Muslim countries is indigenous and not the result of Western crimes — and that such “colourful tribal customs” are absolutely, not relatively, evil. Long before al-Qaeda beheaded Daniel Pearl in Pakistan and Nicholas Berg in Iraq, I understood that it was dangerous for a Westerner, especially a woman, to live in a Muslim country. In retrospect, I believe my so-called Western feminism was forged in that most beautiful and treacherous of Eastern countries. Nevertheless, Western intellectual-ideologues, including feminists, have demonised me as a reactionary and racist “Islamophobe” for arguing that Islam, not Israel, is the largest practitioner of both sexual and religious apartheid in the world and that if Westerners do not stand up to this apartheid, morally, economically and militarily, we will not only have the blood of innocents on our hands; we will also be overrun by Sharia in the West. I have been heckled, menaced, never-invited, or disinvited for such heretical ideas — and for denouncing the epidemic of Muslim-on-Muslim violence for which tiny Israel is routinely, unbelievably scapegoated. However, my views have found favour with the bravest and most enlightened people alive. Leading secular Muslim and ex-Muslim dissidents — from Egypt, Bangladesh, Iran, Iraq, Jordan, Pakistan, Syria and exiles from Europe and North America — assembled for the landmark Islamic Summit Conference in Florida and invited me to chair the opening panel on Monday. According to the chair of the meeting, Ibn Warraq: “What we need now is an age of enlightenment in the Islamic world. Without critical examination of Islam, it will remain dogmatic, fanatical and intolerant and will continue to stifle thought, human rights, individuality, originality and truth.” The conference issued a declaration calling for such a new “Enlightenment”. The declaration views “Islamophobia” as a false allegation, sees a “noble future for Islam as a personal faith, not a political doctrine” and “demands the release of Islam from its captivity to the ambitions of power-hungry men”. Now is the time for Western intellectuals who claim to be antiracists and committed to human rights to stand with these dissidents. To do so requires that we adopt a universal standard of human rights and abandon our loyalty to multicultural relativism, which justifies, even romanticises, indigenous Islamist barbarism, totalitarian terrorism and the persecution of women, religious minorities, homosexuals and intellectuals. Our abject refusal to judge between civilisation and barbarism, and between enlightened rationalism and theocratic fundamentalism, endangers and condemns the victims of Islamic tyranny. Ibn Warraq has written a devastating work that will be out by the summer. It is entitled Defending the West: A Critique of Edward Said’s Orientalism. Will Western intellectuals also dare to defend the West? Dr Phyliss chesler