Sweet Punjaban

Thanks for that Gupt Singhni.

This is such a devastating tradegy, though I didn't know Iky persnally he was a very good friend of my sisters and she always use to tell me funny stories about him and how he was such a sweet and caring person. The night we heard the news it was so shocking, and to think its just happened down the road from where I live and to some one so lovely...after atending the site where the tradegy took place my sister told me she couldn't believe the amount of messages left for him and flowers ...He was a truly loved individual by many. Even all over his facebook profie all his nearest and dearest have left messages for him and there is also a website been dedicated to him. I will find the link to that website and post it up here for those who wish to give their final condolences for him. He was a guy with a great personality, and from what I hear someone very close to God. May he rest in peace. Vaheguru Ji ka khalsa, Vaheguru Ji ki fateh.

LOL and LOL and LOL toooooo funnnnnnnnnnnnnnyyyyyyyyyyyyy

So tables and chairs means inequality?.... :| Militant Singh, STUFF YOU, YOU're A JOKE NOT THE GURDWARA!!!! You didn't like that did you?? Well thats what you're sayin to The Gurdwara, even though it has Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib sitting there! It's not your local Gurdwara, you've been there once and making assumptions!! The Gurdwara has had top Jathas there, obviously not good enough for you! I didnt want to post again, but some ppl drive me mad!! SOOOOO EASY TO CRITICISE, I MEAN SOOOO EASY, WHY DONT YOU GET UP AND DO SOMETHING???????? YOU THAT BORED???? COME THIS SUNDAY AND LISTEN TO VEER MANPREET SINGH AS UNDERMINING THE GURDWARA IS TO YOU AND COME IN AND SEE FOR YOURSELF. LEARN TO INSPIRE NOT CRITICISE, EITHER THAT OR YOU MUST BE A BRAHMGIANI AND YOU'VE REACHED A STAGE WHERE CRITICISING IS OK. GUYS PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE, THIS IS MY HUMBLE BENTHI, STOP DOING NINDIYA, LETS TAKE THE SIKH COMMUNITY IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION: 1- YOU INSULT, THE OTHER PARTY WILL BECOME DEFENSIVE AND CHANCES ARE ITS GONNA END IN A FIGHT WITH NOTHING RESOLVED LIKE THIS THREAD 2- iNSPIRE, TALK ON A LEVEL AND BOTH SIDES ARE LIKELY TO LEARN SOMETHING, ITS AN I WIN- YOU WIN SITUATION. THIS IS HOW BUSINESSES BECOME SO POWERFUL- NEGOTIATION And you Guys think every Gurdwara is perfect?? you obviously dont know how much politics goes in other Gurdwaras, your starting with table and chairs because you got nothing better to do, obviously got something against people who call themselves 'Ramgarhias'. If that's the case, show people the true meaning of Sikhi, the other side of the coin, and give it a generation or two and this caste system will be abolished- that's a Guarentee, you start criticising and attacking, THERE'S ONLY GOING TO BE BIGGER DIVISIONS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I Know the akal thakht issued all Gurdwaras to eat on the floor, but is this as significant as the number of sikhs consuming alcohol, drugs etc???????? Common pyarayooo, we're the Youth Generation, we're the sons and daighters of the greatest king there ever was, lets start with brining the sikh youth together, not apart. yes Maryada is important, but not as important as uniting the Khalsa nation like it was 300 years ago. all we seem to do these days is criticise, not work together like brothers and sisters. Forgive me for the amount of crap i've chatted but sometimes its the only way to get a point across. Maf karna Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh Well said brother! :wub:

:TH: very true...i mean take a look at these wierdo giannis, these wannabe Gurus... A turban and beard is the first step. A turban means you dont cut your hair {unlike some men whole wear a turban on sunday but cut their hair} Guru Ji says dont cut your hair, but people insult GuruJi by doing so and justify it too. Thats where a huge problem occurss and the whole panth takes that beating for it and now people justifying not keeping Kash is spreading like wildfire in 110 degree weather in 100 mph winds. You dont need a beard if you are young and dont grow onw yet{ for boys/men } but once you start to grow a beard means God started to grow your beard and you insult Wahegurus creation by ridding it off your face. A true Sikh listens to the Guru and doesnt justify things to fit his insecure life about Sikhi. When you want Amrit means you promise to be a GurSikh and do what GuruJi wants by not cutting hair etc. Think again from what you think {manmat} I think girls just dont want hair legs that they have to have under modest clothes they want to walk around like all the other women in society and show off their body. Need I say more. Many of you men still prefer hairless women though, I mean God created us women with monobrows, toshes, hairy arms, armpits and legs....some bichariya even have it ont their hands and feet slightly :| ... yet we feel compelled to have to get rid of it due to it looking 'unlady like' and unpleasant....which is quite sad really, we are the way we are and should be accepted as that too.. But if you don't mind your women having that then thats fine, I just don't like some people (in particularly guys) being hypocrites...(thats not directed at anyone, just a point I wanted to make). :wub:

When you click on this link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transcendence the sixth description is the religious description... As for the definition of onkar meaning existence, I explained that in my previous post... Oan = Transcedent, -kar = Immanent Immanence is the religious and metaphysical concept of a supreme divine force or being existing and acting within the physical world. This concept generally contrasts or coexists with the idea of transcendence. It is not saying immanence is physical, it says the "supreme divine force" is existing and acting within the physical world, which is in accordance with your beliefs of transcedent meaning of: Which is quite rightly put actually. So in effect if it means Oan= transcedent, -kar= immanent, that should mean "being above and independant of the material universe, which exists and acts within the physical world". (Which is partly where I get my 'Onkar meaning existence' argument from). I also have a friend who is a student in politics and philosophy and he actually deconstructed the word Onkar to get to the root of its origin and what it actually means, and he was the 1st to actually tell me Onkar means existence, as in God exists within everything. He also pointed out that if Guru Nanak had wanted to say "One God", why didn't he say "Ek Rab?", "Ek Bhagwan?", "Ek Khuda?", or even "Ek Vaheguru?", Why "Ek Onkar?"???? Which he has got a point huna? Hope thats a bit clearer, and I'm glad your questioning my views in a constructive way because it gives us both space to learn more, and if I am wrong anywhere I can be cleared of my misunderstanding too! Lol we've started a whole new topic! :wub:

Whats wrong with Table and Chairs? When you go home do you sit on the floor and eat? Even if your sitting on the chairs near a table, everyone is still on the same level when eating. In Singh Sabba Gurdwara you have tables and chairs too. Only difference is that you dont get to sit on the tables but you have to stand near the tables, I choose not to stand near a table and eat since it gives me gas. I would prefer to sit either on the floor or on the chair near a table. MAnnnnnnnn! sikhi is being watered down so much. siingh one questrion....do u go home and listen to kirtan for an hour if u miss it at the gurudwara...also the whole point of siiting on the fllor is so that you feel the lowest of the low.... man, sikhs can even look after their own religion sometimes...really gets me down man i sit on the floor at home...???? I personly see no problem with having tables and chairs in the Gurdwara. Why stop at Tables and Chairs.............lets go the whole hog......... The originals Gurdwara's had no electricity....let us stop electricity too. The original Gurudwara's had no gas....let us stop gas too. The original Gurudwara's no flowing water from taps....it was brought from the well........let us stop that too. The original Gurudwara's had no PA systems to hear Paath......let us stop that too. The original Gurudwara's had no toilets......let us take those out too. The original Gurudwara's had no car parks......let us take those out too. The original Gurudwara's had no carpet............let us take that out too. The orginal Gurudwara's had no fans or airconditioning.......let us take that out too. I could go on with this liost ad infinitum...............but alas I fear I am talking to a brick wall ................................. LONG LIVE HYPOCRASY!!!!!!!! :| hahahahaha....thats improvement and hasnt got anthing to do with out status or how we feel....but improvments to our gurudware so that 1)the electricity powers the P.A so that the paat can be heard from all around the gurudwara 2)Gas-so that the langar is hot for the sangat eating 3) water allows us to keep soocham so we can serve maharaj 4) toilets allow the sangat to be relieved from anything that is disracting them frrom their simran you catch my drift....ALL THESE IMPROVEMENTS ARE FOR THE SANGAT... singh sahib the singhs in gurus fauj didnt even know what internet was...let alone use it...so i am sugeesting you think about this carefully as their is always two sides toa penny and sometime one side is ral and the other fake So why cant the chairs and tables be for the SANGAT? And nobody answered my question to as why it is believed that tables and chairs in the langar hall is disrespectful in anyway??? And where it is written in the SGGS dat the langar from a Gurdwara MUST be consumed sitting on the floor??? Thanks if anyone has any answers for me. :wub:

Well my friend you are right, but that meaning of transcendence is in the religious form...as there are many meanings of the one word... Transcendence may refer to: Transcendence (mathematics): Transcendental number, a real number that is not the root of any polynomial with rational coefficients Transcendental element, an element of a field extension that is not the root of any polynomial with coefficients from the base field Transcendental function, a function which does not satisfy a polynomial equation whose coefficients are themselves polynomials Transcendence (philosophy), climbing or going beyond some philosophical concept or limit Transcendence (religion), the concept that God can be either close to you or very separate from you Transcendentalism, a philosophical movement that advocates that there is an ideal spiritual state that 'transcends' the physical and empirical Transcendental idealism, a doctrine founded by 18th-century German philosopher Immanuel Kant Transcendence (novel), a novel by Charles Sheffield Transcendent (novel), a science-fiction novel by Stephen Baxter .... see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transcendence As for 'being' God...i am not saying that at all, all I merely meant was God is within all of us and everything around us.... On his fourth great journey in life Guru Nanak dressed in the blue garb of a Muslim pilgrim traveled to the west and visited Mecca, Medina and Baghdad. Arriving at Mecca, Guru Nanak fell asleep with his feet pointing towards the holy Kabba. When the watchman on his night rounds noticed this he kicked the Guru, saying, "How dare you turn your feet towards the house of God". At this Guru Nanak woke up and said, "Good man, I am weary after a long journey. Kindly turn my feet in the direction where God is not." When pilgrims and the holy men of the shrine gathered to hear Guru Nanak and question him, he sang in Persian; "I beseech you, O Lord! pray grant me a hearing. You are the truthful, the great, the merciful, and the faultless Creator. I know for certain, this world must perish, And death must come, I know this and nothing else. Neither wife, nor son, nor father, nor brothers shall be able to help. I must go in the end, none can undo what is my fate. I have spend days and nights in vanity, contemplating evil. Never have I thought of good; this is what I am. I am ill-starred, miserly, careless, short-sighted, and rude. But says Nanak, I am yours, the dust of the feet of your servants." (Tilang) Guru Nanak wished to tell all that god is everywhere, you cannot hide from him. Tohee Mohee Mohee Tohee Antar Kaisaa Kanak Katik Jal Trang Jaisaa (As written in the SGGS) Ravidass' Hymns, see http://www.kettering.edu/~bguru/RaviDass.html This basically is Ravidass asking God that what is the difference between you and me, between me and you? The difference is a mere illusion such as the difference between gold and a gold bracelet on one hand, or the water in the ocean and the waves on its surface in the other. So when the gold is melted that distiction between them is lost and when waves break they gel back into that same ocean....meaning there really is no difference we all become part of God eventually as we are already part of God. (I have actually posted this in another topic as well). Finally, if Onkar means existence to me, then "That which was, is, will be, is all Onkar." As in "That which was, is, will be, is all existent" Right? "That which triple transcends is Onkar, too", meaning that triple transcends (as in mathematical form) is multiplied by three...thus still giving the answer of "existence"... So you see, we all are actually all part of God according to this, as written in the SGGS. Well so I believe and interpret. You don't have to agree, but I hope it makes it a little clearer what I was trying to say. :|

Ek obviously means one! Oankaar The word 'O-ankaar' denotes that God manifests Himself ceaselessly throughout His Creation in diverse forms, features and colours, and in this way becomes knowable to man. But, in spite of manifesting Himself diversing, God remains One; He remains Immanent in His Creation while at the same time remaining Transcendent. This God is at once One and Many implying Unity in Diversity. Kapur Singh suggests Oan = Transcedent, -kar = Immanent. The Mandukopanishad defines the word as: "That which was, is, will be, is all Onkar. And that which triple transcends is Onkar too." Transcendence = the concept that God can be either close to you or very separate from you. He remains Immanent in His Creation Immanence is the religious and metaphysical concept of a supreme divine force or being existing and acting within the physical world. This concept generally contrasts or coexists with the idea of transcendence. Meaning HE exists within everything as he has created everything which exists! If that makes any sense? lol :|

Why did caste originate within us human beings? Why are there several religions which exist within this world? Well no-one truly knows but I believe its Gods way of testing us...do we diffrentiate ourselves into certain groups and sects of people? Or do we learn to gel in with everyone and learn we are not all separate at all actually, but are merely separte leaves off separate branches of the same tree...?(as I believe?) If my birth has born me into a chumaar family am I sikh or hindu? I respect both religions equally and admire their true followers also a great deal. My parents always wrote my religion as 'Hindu' since I was young, yet I was confused why do we attend a Gurdwara as I got older, and why do all of our cousins/ relatives get married in Gurdwareh? Yet I do praise Shinji and Lord Krishna. Then one day I was asked at school "So what cast are you?" I didn't know how to reply as I had not been brought up with a cast attatched to my name...but eventually with time and after asking my parents I learnt I was 'chumaar'. I also learnt with time that this was regarded as a 'low' cast Anyways what was to happen as I got even older? I fell in love with an admirable sikh lad...(this is some deep personal stuff I cant believe Im actually writing about but this thread has made me wish to speak up)...He was ofcourse OF A DIFFERENT CAST! Hmm a so-called 'bhatra-sikh' as it were..none of my friends had herd of the cast to be honest, as hadn't my family, but my parents did something which I never would have expected from them...they agreed for our marriage! My mum had always said if you do find someone yourself he best be chumaar! With time tho she widened my spectrum (lol) by saying "look as long as their indian I don't mind", (as in either hindu or sikh)..but she did tend to add on in the end shed prefer if they wern't too high or low in cast to us! lol! Anyways it took one year and nine months for that guy to tell his father about his relationship with me and his wish to marry me...his mum already knew and did not mind but knew the dad would not agree so happily..but I told him at the end of the day how can we get married without your parents consent? I had always found his strong sikh knowledge and background quite attractive from day one, all which he thanked his father for, to give him such a disciplined and cultured upbringing. Yet what happened eventually was so sad...his father did not consent to his marriage with me, a girl from a different cast! AND DIFFERENT RELIGION (He had usually defined me as a hindu...hmm). I gave him a choice then, I didn't want him to leave his family for me as i knew he loved them too much, but I could also not live without him...I told him the only way I see out of this is to either leave your family for me or leave me for you family...you cant have both...but either way I would agree with whatever he chose. He chose his family over me...he said he wouldn't want to be responsible to break up his family...I was quite proud of his decision, though it was so hard for both of us to acknowledge that things hadnt quite gone as wed planned...but at the time I did laugh out and say I always thought your father was a true sikh, yet my parents turned out to be more 'sikh' than your father as they accepted you regardless of cast, religion or race, yet your father held all those against me... Was his father right in doing so? Was him seeing me as a hindu and not sikh reason enough to reject me? Or the fact that it would have been out of cast and he couldn't possibly let a chumaari into their house?? I have learned though that people form various castes do live differently to those from other castes, and so such marriages would need much room for adjustment and compromise. But hey isn't that what marriage is about anyway? Back to the story (lol) was his father decisions justified? What are your thoughts on this? Thanks for reading my post, Im looking forward to hearing everyones views on this! (maybe I should have opened a new topic? lol) :|

Very nice poem...truly deep and heartfelt. I just hope you do not turn to wallow in the anger which this provokes, yet learn to love the Gurus and the Gurus teachings further more. Peace.

:wub: That's deep :| I personally think that it is beautifully simple, but hey, whatever floats yer boat :TH: :wub: Technically 'Ek Onkar' means One Existence...as in God exists within EVERYTHING. Just thought I'd share that with you. :wub:

I think Singh 392 and Pritam Singh Khalsa have very many valid points which the rest of us should try to understand. As for the caste names which are added to the front of particular Gurdwaras names is very sad indeed...but is something that does exist. For example im chumaar and so am associated with Ravidass (Guru Ravidass to 'us') and all of my relatives attend the Guru Ravidass Gurdwara....it is said that back in the day people of low castes, such as chumaars, were not allowed to enter Gurdwareh and were handed prashaad outside Gurdwara whilst avoiding to 'touch' the so called 'untouchables'....Therefore what do 'chumaars' go and do? They set up "Guru Ravidass" Gurdwareh where 'their' people can go... Was this right or wrong? Why it was right- People from lower castes, such as chumaars were able to go and sit in Gurdwaras freely, listen to the recitations of the Gurbani and had peace of mind to attend a Gurdwara with no restrictions. They were compelled to take such measures. Why it was WRONG- What have these people learnt from the Gurbani? The main essence of Sikhism is that everyone is EQUAL...regardless of caste, creed, gender or race. The people who did not allow other, lower 'castes' to enter into 'their' Gurdwareh were not true Sikhs as they did not see the 'others' as equals...what was the use of such Gurdwareh where such people prevailed? And whats worse is those who set up Gurdwareh for 'their own kind' as they also displayed the same behaviour. For people who continue this caste labelling will not allow Sikhism to grow and flourish as it should...the minute someone attaches a caste to their name they are no longer Sikh...they become HINDUS as it was HINDUS who set up the caste system, therefore those who follow it must also be HINDUS right?? (Ofcourse there is nothing wrong with being Hindu). All those who wish to claim themselves as true SIKHS must let go of any part of them which relates back to caste if they wish to move forward and spread the word of the Gurus. As for all the Gurdwareh that are set up with extended 'names' well the rest of us will have to deal with that, unless you think that going around and destroying such Gurdwareh will acheive anything, as you would still be disrespecting the SGGS and all that which the Gurus have taught us, as they are still places of worship where Vaheguru is worshipped. The Gurujis also taught us that respect others beliefs and religions yet I don't see a wide majority of many sikhs doing this at all whatsoever. Thanks again for reading my post, Im just alittle upset that no-one answered my questions from my last post :| Take care then :wub:

has times changed so much we have to change the traditions laid down by our Satguru Ji's. If langar on the floor was good enough for them, how can it not be good enough for us?..were our Satguru's "unhygenic (randip singh)" for eating Langar on the floor? do we know better then them to eat on chairs? i agree with pritam singh this guy speaks serious sense. tell me, which person can change the sacred tradition of guru ka Langar?... Who are we to say... "yes, its ok to eat on tables and chairs".... "Pehle pangat, piche sangat" its always been tradition to sit in rows before attending sangat, not sit on chairs in rows. certain Sikhs change and modify Sikhi and Gurbani to suit there own needs. next you know these ignorant uneducated so called sikhs will be serving pedegree chum at langar to sangat on tables and chairs. a line has to be drawn somewhere before Sikhi heads in this direction. bhul chuk maaf vaheguroojeekakhalsaavaheguroojikifateeh lol at pedigree chum! (tho thats taking it abit too far lol) :|

Tohee Mohee Mohee Tohee Antar Kaisaa Kanak Katik Jal Trang Jaisaa (As written in the SGGS) This basically is Ravidass asking God that what is the difference between you and me, between me and you? The difference is a mere illusion such as the difference between gold and a gold bracelet on one hand, or the water in the ocean and the waves on its surface in the other. So when the gold is melted that distiction between them is lost and when waves break they gel back into that same ocean....meaning there really is no difference we all become part of God eventually as we are already part of God. What Im trying to say is what is all this about sitting lower or higher in a Gurdwara??? Im not trying to be disrespectful so please forgive me, Im asking a simple question. Does a bird in a nest on a high tree hold more value than a rabbit in a burrow?....Technically we're all equal to the lord anyway so what difference does having chairs and tables in the langar hall make? I didn't quite understand that. @ And can some one kindly point out where it is written in the SGGS that langar must be consumed sitting on the floor? I'm new to this you see and so have barely any knowledge at all about what the gurujis have wrote in the SGGS, don't take this question the wrong way! I was just thinking someone must know if it is written that that is how it should be, because if it is written so, then I also would agree that chairs n tables should not be permitted in gurdwaras (apart from for the elderly and disabled). But at the same time I don't see why sitting on chairs and tables is disrespectful in any way...what is so disrespectful about that? Thanks for reading my post, hope one of you will help answer my questions.

Hello everyone! This is my first message im posting up here just to let you all know! :TH: I just wanted to say that... "The word "Guru" is a Sanskrit word meaning teacher, honoured person, religious person or saint. Sikhism though has a very specific definition of the word Guru. It means the descent of divine guidance to mankind provided through ten Enlightened Masters. This honour of being called a Sikh Guru applies only to the ten Gurus who founded the religion starting with Guru Nanak in 1469 and ending with Guru Gobind Singh in 1708; thereafter it refers to the Sikh Holy Scriptures the Guru Granth Sahib. The divine spirit was passed from one Guru to the next as "The light of a lamp which lights another does not abate. Similarly a spiritual leader and his disciple become equal, Nanak says the truth." (not my own words, but words of wisdom none the less) Therefore in this manner, if those who follow the teachings of Guru Ravidass are not sikh, then are they not technically right in calling Ravidass 'Guru' Ravidass, as to them it would mean teacher, honoured person, religious person or saint???? I can see why some sikhs do not call Guru Ravidass 'Guru' but I think it is upto the individual how they wish to address those, whose teachings they follow... I know this is not in relation to the actual topic but just something I felt like mentioning. As for the thread, hmm I actually live near Wolverhampton, just finished at Wolves uni actually, I've been past Ik Niwas but aint really got a clue of whats going on there. I feel that those of you who are concerned should actually go and do something about it rather than discussing it on the net...fair enough people in Wolves may deal with the problem more easily, but very few are either unaware of what is happening or just cant be bothered to sort it out. Also I mite be wrong, but just as a general comment there may not even actually be anything going on there as what is described. Who ever was there at the time to see it taking place should have disputed the matter at that time...why go around telling people about and not trying to rectify it yourself? and where are the rest of you getting these complaints from? There are so many sikhs and Gurdwaras in Wolverhampton, im sure the matter could be easily dealt with to whoever it concerns. I know this thread was posted up ages ago, so my apologies if the problem has been sorted. I've only just read it now so am replying what I felt needed to be said. Anyways take care everyone im jetting to bed now! nite nite xxx